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 EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)

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EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Empty
PostSubject: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 4:56 am

I NEVER HAVE, DO NOT, AND NEVER WILL condone ANY of Eric and/or Dylan's actions on 4/20.

When it comes to Columbine, I'm not a disinterested observer. I have a pro-Eric bias.

But I don't apologize for it. Everyone has a bias.

Tell me with a straight face that Cullen doesn't have a pro-Dylan bias. And tell me that Susan Klebold does not have a vested interest in trying to make Dylan look as good as she possibly can.

We hear over and over and over again about how Dylan suffered in life ... how miserable he was ... how much he wanted to kill himself.

Did Eric not suffer, as well? Does his suffering not deserve to be remembered?

He had few friends, except for Dylan. He didn't have a girlfriend. He didn't have much of a social life. He spent most of his time alone, in his room, on his computer.

His rage toward his "peers" stemmed from the fact that he wasn't liked and accepted as much as he wanted to be liked and accepted. He was confronted with constant reminders of his failure to measure up. He was a weak little boy who wanted to be a big strong man.

I relate to Eric far more than I do to Dylan. I see more than a little of myself in him. That's why I've fought for the idea that he was a human being with hopes and fears and dreams and nightmares, not some dastardly psychopath with no true emotions or feelings.

I guess what I really hate is the LABEL. Eric was a psycho. That's his LABEL. All of the thoughts inside of his head are reduced to one simplistic word.

I always had a LABEL when I was in school. I was diagnosed with obsessive-compulsive disorder, like Eric. I was LABELED severely emotionally disturbed. I was put in special classes with the other freaks and kept away from the normal kids. (Eventually I was mainstreamed into some normal classes.) I hated my fellow freaks for reminding me of my own inferiority, my own defectiveness, but I appreciated the fact that, by and large, they were cool with me. I didn't have any real friends, but the other freaks never treated me poorly. I was one of them.

It didn't help that I looked like a freak. I weighed 300 pounds when I was 14 years old. I had horrendous acne - my face looked awful, but my back was ten times worse. My hair was so greasy that, if I ran my hand through it, I'd have to wipe it off right away. I had no social skills. (I didn't even try to talk to girls.) My mother made me wear the most hideous glasses she could find.

Every day, walking down the hallway, I felt like I was some zoo animal on parade. Lots of kids feel that way, I guess. I don't imagine that my own experiences were all that unique.

My one saving grace was that I was a big, bulky guy with broad shoulders. People told me I should try out for football. I never did - a miserable experience on a soccer team when I was a little kid soured me on sports for life. But I wasn't bullied.

I loathed and envied the normals for their ability to gain a kind of true acceptance that I never could, but I also felt superior to them. They were drones, obediently following all of the rules that society wanted them to follow. The freaks liked to cut loose - they would act wild, because they knew that there was nothing they could do to lessen other kids' opinion of them. But the normals were always so neurotic about how they looked, how they acted, and so on. I hated them, but it was a hatred softened - yes, softened - by contempt, even pity. I knew that I was smarter than them.

(I even knew that I was smarter than the ones who got better grades than I did. Very Happy)

I cut loose on a few occasions myself. Sometimes the freaks would laugh; sometimes they would roll their eyes. But they never held it against me.

The normals mostly ignored me, and I ignored them. I spoke to a few of them every now and then, but for the most part they might as well have been part of a different species.

I used to talk to this one guy, a semi-jock, and I thought we were friends. But one day someone asked him if we were friends, and he said "No" so fast and so sharply that it was clear that he was offended by the implication that a guy like him could ever be friends with me. I didn't say anything to him; I just smiled. But inwardly I was seething. It was yet another insult. Maybe he didn't intend it as such, but I interpreted it as such.

I still remember the relative handful of people who treated me like I was totally beneath them. There was this one "mean girl" type who used to talk shit about me behind my back. She thought that I didn't know about it - she seemed to think that I was retarded or something. I was always nice to her face. But if I so badly wanted to do something nasty to her and her snotty friends. Not something violent, but something that would have destroyed her reputation and obliterated her sense of self-worth. Maybe one day I'll see her somewhere and find some way to cut her down to size.

(I didn't go to my ten-year reunion. I have no desire to see any of those people ever again. I don't hate them; I simply have no use for them.)

Eric wasn't like me - he was better off in many ways. I didn't even have a car when I was in high school. My mother gave me $1.50 a day for lunch, and that was it. (She forbade me to work - I had to come straight home after school. I didn't have a curfew - when I wasn't at school, I was either at my mother's house or my grandmother's house. I wasn't allowed to go anywhere by myself.)

But still, when I think about him, this miserable little fuck of a kid having to smile and be polite toward clueless adults, having to steel himself for constant hallway confrontations with moronic jocks, I realize that he, like me, thought that he was an Übermensch living in a shithole world full of dumbfucks.

I've never had any homicidal ideation, and I've never seriously considered offing myself. But, at times, I've felt some of that burning rage and contempt toward this shitty world and the brainless imbeciles who live in it. I've channeled it into my spergy hobbies.

It bugs me that the Harrises won't fight for their own son. It strikes me as odd (to say the least) that I've spent far more time arguing the case that Eric wasn't a monster than they have. Maybe one day they will find the strength to come forward. But I don't think they ever will.

I will never stop believing that Eric could have been saved, that he could have gone on to live a happy, healthy, normal life. I guess I'll always be in the minority.

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Last edited by LPorter101 on Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:52 am; edited 3 times in total

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EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Empty
PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 5:01 am

I'm anti-Eric because he murdered 13 people.
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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 5:02 am

Undyne wrote:
I'm anti-Eric because he murdered 13 people.

Touche. Very Happy

I mourn the Eric who could have made something of his life, not the one who murdered 13 people.

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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 5:11 am

The thing is, there are millions of teens who also think that the world is full of awful people.  Why not latch onto them instead?  To be honest, I don't have that much sympathy for them either, much less Eric.  They had to smile at clueless adults?  Horror of horrors.

I have sympathy for bullied kids.  Obviously.  But the thing is, I'm not sure about this jock vs. nerd thing anymore.  Nerds/freaks can be just as shitty and awful as jocks, but perhaps they lack the power to do as much damage. Your rant about "normals" is getting dangerously close to Elliot Rodger territory.
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EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Empty
PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 5:22 am

Undyne wrote:
The thing is, there are millions of teens who also think that the world is full of awful people.  Why not latch onto them instead?  To be honest, I don't have that much sympathy for them either, much less Eric.  They had to smile at clueless adults?  Horror of horrors.

Have you ever had to smile at people for whom you feel nothing but absolute loathing and contempt - people who you would be happy to see drop dead right in front of you, not only because of who they are, but also because of what they represent?

Having to lie all the time takes a lot of you. Having to pretend to like people who you hate is corrosive to the soul.

They are the ones who call the shots. They are your puppet-masters. They are dumbfucks and you have to do what they tell you to do.

Shit like that.

Undyne, I don't see the point in arguing with you about this. Maybe you think that your stance makes you morally superior to me. I've never cared about being morally superior or inferior to anyone.

The bottom line is that I identify with Eric (and Dylan too, to some extent - I don't write him off completely). I find him interesting. I find his actions interesting.

There is a part of me that would like to see every single high school in this country, maybe even in this world, shot up to shreds and then burned to the ground. Part of me would like to see the whole fucking world burned to the ground. Maybe then we could start over and try to do it better. And maybe, if we did get to start over, we'd eventually end up making the new world into the same shithole we have now. But it would be one hell of a show.

But I am not blind to the suffering of the innocents - and they were innocents - who died at Eric and Dylan's hands. They did not deserve it.

Even Rocky Hoffschneider, had he been killed in that library, would not have deserved it.

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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 5:23 am

Undyne wrote:
I have sympathy for bullied kids.  Obviously.  But the thing is, I'm not sure about this jock vs. nerd thing anymore.  Nerds/freaks can be just as shitty and awful as jocks, but perhaps they lack the power to do as much damage.  Your rant about "normals" is getting dangerously close to Elliot Rodger territory.

Ah, cut the shit. That guy was a pathetic loser. I'm merely a loser. Very Happy

But I'm not a normal, and I never will be.

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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 5:29 am

What do you want from me, Undyne?

Do you want me to go on national television and recant my anti-Cullenism? Do you want me to repent and accept Dave Cullen as my Lord and Savior?

Do you want me to lie and say that I don't have any sympathy or empathy for the two boys, and that I am not, at some level, attracted to the idea of what they did and what they wanted to do? Do you want me to write "ERIC WAS A PSYCHOPATHIC MONSTER" ten thousand times?

Or do you want me to "get help" - have some shrink write me a prescription?

(At one point, I was on Luvox, Risperdal, Zoloft, and Prozac - all at once.)

What am I supposed to do? I am neither homicidal nor suicidal. I don't torture small animals or anything like that.

I simply don't like people very much. I don't like living in this world very much. But I cope as best I can.

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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 5:34 am

Maybe someone who reads this board will read my words and then, God forbid, go shoot up his high school. And then people will say, "Oh, my, LPorter gave him encouragement."

So let me say this:

DO NOT GO ON A SHOOTING RAMPAGE, OR ANY OTHER KIND OF KILLING SPREE. DO NOT KILL ANYONE. DO NOT KILL YOURSELF. BE NICE AND TRY TO MAKE OTHERS HAPPY.

Is that what you want from me, Undyne?

I'm on this board because I get a kick out of the idea that two kids - driven, in the end, essentially by boredom and dissatisfaction, or lack of stimulation - wanted to murder 250 people by blowing up their high-school cafeteria. It's lulzy.

I believe in God, and I believe that if I do bad things in this life, then I will suffer for them. If I did not believe in God, or "karma," then I would do lots of bad things that I'm too afraid to do.

But isn't that true of a lot of folks?

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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 5:58 am

LPORTER...I have read all of your posts over the years and I have wanted to say many many times that I have always respected all of your opinions and your are a very good writer and wish you would write a columbine book but I would also love to read a book about You and your views. The above almost made me tear up. I am a 55 year old IT guy in Kansas City and want you to know, here is someone you don't know but I care about you and hope you now have friends and love in your life and it breaks my heart when you write about your mother. I have studied columbine for 10 years and have lurked the entire time even in the old forums I never ever said anything until today, I love your writings and sincerely wish you the very best. And i would buy your book in a minute! I think your story could help people see the pain of life. Sorry this is off topic but I have been meaning to tell you for so long your posts have always been so very thoughtful and impressive for Years! Peace
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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 6:02 am

Quote :
What do you want from me, Undyne?

Well, I guess the first thing I want from you is for you to not launch seven different questions at me before I've gotten a chance to answer even one of them.
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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 6:59 am

I kind of agree with this. I think it might have to do with his reputation as the psycho mastermind and it being bought so easily and ignoring the evidence of him having emotions and being vulnerable. His parents being so silent isn't something I really take issue with since they seem to be extremely private and would be the kind of people to deal wi this behind closed doors and keep to themselves. I would absolutely love to hear from them one day though and their insight would put some more things together.

Mostly though I just feel a majority, if not all of the blame of the shootings is put on him and treated as if he was a psychopath who charmed people, while Dylan was a meeknfollower. It's shocking that anyone who knows anything about Columbine can think the situation is that basic.

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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 7:29 am

netgear wrote:
LPORTER...I have read all of your posts over the years and I have wanted to say many many times that I have always respected all of your opinions and your are a very good writer and wish you would write a columbine book but I would also love to read a book about You and your views. The above almost made me tear up. I am a 55 year old IT guy in Kansas City and want you to know, here is someone you don't know but I care about you and hope you now have friends and love in your life and it breaks my heart when you write about your mother. I have studied columbine for 10 years and have lurked the entire time even in the old forums I never ever said anything until today, I love your writings and sincerely wish you the very best. And i would buy your book in a minute! I think your story could help people see the pain of life. Sorry this is off topic but I have been meaning to tell you for so long your posts have always been so very thoughtful and impressive for Years! Peace

I agree. He's one of the most shockingly brilliant and unique minds that I've ever encountered.

I love reading what he has to say. I admire and appreciate how straightforward and unyielding he is with his honesty. Yet, there is an air of mystery to him at the same time which is also admirable.

He's a wonderful, unique soul, and in my opinion, an asset to this forum and any forum he participates in.



And we're very happy to have you here, netgear. I hope you continue to participate when you feel like doing so.
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EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Empty
PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 7:59 am

Thank you, LPorter. Thank you. Eric has become like a family member to me in my mind and I am so tired of everybody singling him out and trying endlessly to portray him  as inhuman, going to any lengths to deny his sadness, his depression, his loneliness, any evidence at all of his vulnerability or humanity.
I hate what he did and always will, but I will always defend that troubled, sad , angry but the possessor of much potential kid that I have come to know.


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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 8:03 am

Thank you so much tfsa47090...and you said it more eloquently than I, and your right I want to know more about him(in a non creepy way of course). And thank you for the welcome I am a lurker by nature but really love this forum. Happy Valentines's Day!
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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 8:09 am


Not to worry Porter

It doesn't matter what we say on this forum about Eric/Dylan.


*If somebody is going to do a mass shooting, he/she is going to do it regardless of what we say
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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 8:20 am

netgear wrote:
LPORTER...I have read all of your posts over the years and I have wanted to say many many times that I have always respected all of your opinions and your are a very good writer and wish you would write a columbine book but I would also love to read a book about You and your views. The above almost made me tear up. I am a 55 year old IT guy in Kansas City and want you to know, here is someone you don't know but I care about you and hope you now have friends and love in your life and it breaks my heart when you write about your mother. I have studied columbine for 10 years and have lurked the entire time even in the old forums I never ever said anything until today, I love your writings and sincerely wish you the very best. And i would buy your book in a minute! I think your story could help people see the pain of life. Sorry this is off topic but I have been meaning to tell you for so long your posts have always been so very thoughtful and impressive for Years! Peace

Thank you so much for your moral support. Very Happy

If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's to roll with the punches. I try not to ask more of other people than I'm ready and willing to ask of myself. I've had lots of issues with my family, but in the end blood is thicker than water and I've done what I've had to do.

I try to be as honest as I can. Maybe I'm right and maybe I'm wrong, but I say what I think.

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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 8:20 am

Undyne wrote:
Quote :
What do you want from me, Undyne?

Well, I guess the first thing I want from you is for you to not launch seven different questions at me before I've gotten a chance to answer even one of them.

Fair enough.

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Marco1211 wrote:
I kind of agree with this. I think it might have to do with his reputation as the psycho mastermind and it being bought so easily and ignoring the evidence of him having emotions and being vulnerable. His parents being so silent isn't something I really take issue with since they seem to be extremely private and would be the kind of people to deal wi this behind closed doors and keep to themselves. I would absolutely love to hear from them one day though and their insight would put some more things together.

Mostly though I just feel a majority, if not all of the blame of the shootings is put on him and treated as if he was a psychopath who charmed people, while Dylan was a meeknfollower. It's shocking that anyone who knows anything about Columbine can think the situation is that basic.

Yes.

But there are people on this board who have said that reading Cullen got them interested in Columbine, after which they studied the case and learned that there was more to the story than he's letting on.

There will always be people who will swallow shallow BS, but there will always be others who will be driven to look a bit deeper for the truth. The latter are the ones we can reach.

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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 8:25 am

tfsa47090 wrote:
netgear wrote:
LPORTER...I have read all of your posts over the years and I have wanted to say many many times that I have always respected all of your opinions and your are a very good writer and wish you would write a columbine book but I would also love to read a book about You and your views. The above almost made me tear up. I am a 55 year old IT guy in Kansas City and want you to know, here is someone you don't know but I care about you and hope you now have friends and love in your life and it breaks my heart when you write about your mother. I have studied columbine for 10 years and have lurked the entire time even in the old forums I never ever said anything until today, I love your writings and sincerely wish you the very best. And i would buy your book in a minute! I think your story could help people see the pain of life. Sorry this is off topic but I have been meaning to tell you for so long your posts have always been so very thoughtful and impressive for Years! Peace

I agree. He's one of the most shockingly brilliant and unique minds that I've ever encountered.

I love reading what he has to say. I admire and appreciate how straightforward and unyielding he is with his honesty. Yet, there is an air of mystery to him at the same time which is also admirable.

He's a wonderful, unique soul, and in my opinion, an asset to this forum and any forum he participates in.

I'm not going to argue with you. Very Happy

Again, the moral support means a lot to me. No one bats a thousand, but I'd like to think that my batting average is decent enough.

Quote :
And we're very happy to have you here, netgear. I hope you continue to participate when you feel like doing so.

Yes, we're glad to hear from everybody that we can.

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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 8:25 am

They say to speak up when you're hurting, but I remember what happened the last time I tried. They listened to what I said--took note of my anger at others, my sense of superiority, my interest in weapons and rule-breaking and my tendency to empathize with animals instead of humans--and called me a psychopath.

If that's how things are...let's go be psychopaths and call their bluff. Better to reign in hell than submit to a world like this one.

Random thought: Wouldn't it be awesome if we got codenames upon becoming psychopaths?
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Oh, and psychopath doesn't mean that the person has no emotions. Just thought I'd say that again.
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Undyne wrote:
Oh, and psychopath doesn't mean that the person has no emotions.  Just thought I'd say that again.

You know, the definition of psychopath changes so often that I can't made heads or tails of it.

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PaintItBlack wrote:
Thank you, LPorter. Thank you. Eric has become like a family member to me in my mind and I am so tired of everybody singling him out and trying endlessly to portray him  as inhuman, going to any lengths to deny his sadness, his depression, his loneliness, any evidence at all of his vulnerability or humanity.
I hate what he did and always will, but I will always defend that troubled, sad , angry but the possessor of much potential kid that I have come to know.

Thanks again for for your supportive comments.

Yes, I agree.

When someone does something bad, we want to believe that it's because that person was evil, or crazy, or mentally defective. We want to believe that it has nothing to do with us.

Columbine is disturbing to a lot of people because it says that there is something fundamentally wrong with the way we are raising our kids - not only the "bad" kids who want to kill their classmates, but some of the "good" kids who treat their social lessers so poorly. We don't want to believe that we, as a society, are doing anything wrong. So we say, "Oh, that Eric kid was a raging whackjob, and the Dylan kid was a sad little emo who got caught up in his web. How awful."

If we say that Eric was human, that he had human feelings and thoughts, then we have to start asking, "How could a human being do this?" And then we have to start looking at the larger issues involved. That kind of introspection comes easily to no one. It's a lot easier to say, "Kid was crazy," and write it off.

Now, did Eric have serious mental-health problems, and/or some type of severe personality disorder? Yes. I've never discounted that idea. (Dylan had his own issues, as well.) Both boys had extremely warped perspectives.

And both Eric and Dylan had nice lives. We need to remember that these kids were among the luckiest teenagers on earth. Eric, the "poorer" one, was from a solidly middle-class family. They were not neglected. They were not starving. They had no reasonable right to complain, not in a world where so many have so little.

And there are many, many thousands if not millions of kids who are bullied relentlessly, even more horrendously than Eric and Dylan were, who never end up killing anyone. (Many of them end up killing themselves, as did Eric and Dylan.)

Eric loathed himself, deeply and truly. He externalized his self-hatred - he directed his rage toward a world that he felt refused to recognize his value. I mourn the Eric who could have met someone who could have made him believe in his own self-worth, who could have awakened his innate potential for love and hope that so many believe he simply did not have.

I will not write Eric off as just another psychopath who was doomed to a bad end. He was a very troubled boy who stumbled badly as he attempted to brave the treacherous precipice that lies between adolescence and manhood. He chose the wrong path - he lost his grip on reality and fell into the deep, dark abyss.

Cullen says I'm wasting my time, that I should just toss him into the psychic garbage can. But I won't do it. I want to believe, even need to believe, that he could have been saved. If that's wrong, then so be it.

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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 8:50 am

Psychopath also doesn't mean "just plain crazy."
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Undyne wrote:
Psychopath also doesn't mean "just plain crazy."

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Dave Cullen wrote:
Harris was not a wayward boy who could have been rescued. Harris, they believe, was irretrievable. He was a brilliant killer without a conscience, searching for the most diabolical scheme imaginable. If he had lived to adulthood and developed his murderous skills for many more years, there is no telling what he could have done. His death at Columbine may have stopped him from doing something even worse.

Sounds like "just plain crazy" to me.

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You know who was supposedly a psychopath?
Ted Bundy. A man who would go back and have sex with his victims corpses who had been lying out in the woods for a week.
Yet, Eric's "psychopathy" gets much more coverage than Bundy's ever did.

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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 8:59 am

Let me say that I, too, have been written off.

At times in my life, I have been told, essentially, that my feelings don't "count" because of whatever mental-health problems I'm supposed to have. My loneliness, my frustration, my feelings of impotence - they're merely manifestations of some psychological disorder.

The worst thing about it was that it was my mother who would drag me to psychiatrists and make up stories to get me put on drugs. She would tell them that I would yell at her, without mentioning that I would only do so after she'd been yelling at me for hours on end. She told them that she was afraid of me.

(Afraid of me? I was terrified of her when I was a little kid. I used to hide from her. She would tear the house apart trying to find me.)

My mother, at her worst, was like Mommie Dearest played by Kathy Bates. I don't blame her for her behavior - it's all part of a vicious cycle. My grandfather was extremely physically and emotionally abusive toward her; my grandmother, at times, could be totally selfish and uncaring. There were times in my own life when I saw my grandmother act like a textbook sociopath. It was chilling to realize that someone who I loved could be so cold-hearted.

(Now that she has Alzheimer's, her personality is "mushy." She's not what she was. Sometimes I see glimpses of the things that I used to like about her - she had a kind of bubbly childish excitement about life. She hung pictures of smiley faces on the wall. But sometimes I see glimpses of the things that I used to hate - a childish near-total disregard for the feelings of others.

She once betrayed me in a way that I still find hard to forgive. When I opened up to her about how badly she had hurt me, she laughed and said that I was making a big deal out of nothing. It was the fact that she laughed at me, when I was nearly in tears, that truly pissed me off.)

There was no one in my life who cared about me enough to try to get me out of there. (For that matter, there was no one who cared about my mother enough to try to get her the help that she needed.)

The only people who ever "helped," in even small ways, were strangers. One time a lady at the supermarket told my mother that she shouldn't scream at me at the top of her lungs, that that's not how a mother is supposed to treat her son. My mother told the lady to fuck off. But I was so heartened by her comment - it meant that there was someone out there who cared enough to say *something*.

I have a hard time feeling any love or affection for anyone, because when I needed them most, everyone in my life abandoned me.

I have the feeling that Eric felt similarly "abandoned" by the world. You can see when he talks about his friends that he left behind - he had a support system in place, with people who liked him, and then his father uprooted him and took him away from all that and put him in a place where he simply didn't get along with very many people.

When you come to believe that you don't have any friends or allies, that everyone either hates you or doesn't really give a shit about you, you start to wonder why you should even bother going on with life.

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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 9:07 am

LPorter101 wrote:
Undyne wrote:
Oh, and psychopath doesn't mean that the person has no emotions.  Just thought I'd say that again.

You know, the definition of psychopath changes so often that I can't made heads or tails of it.

You say that you don't know what psychopath means anymore, but apparently you're definitive enough on the subject matter to say that Eric wasn't one.
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Undyne wrote:
LPorter101 wrote:
Undyne wrote:
Oh, and psychopath doesn't mean that the person has no emotions.  Just thought I'd say that again.

You know, the definition of psychopath changes so often that I can't made heads or tails of it.

You say that you don't know what psychopath means, but apparently you're definitive enough on the subject matter to say that Eric wasn't one.

Dave Cullen says that Eric Harris was an "irretrievable psychopath." I do not believe that he was irretrievable.

Eric hated the world and wanted to kill. But so did Dylan.


What do you believe, Undyne? You keep writing these snippy little one-sentence posts. Write me a paragraph or two and maybe I'll be more inclined to think that you're doing something other than trolling me.

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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 9:24 am

Also, note that I have added the following to the top of this thread:

I NEVER HAVE, DO NOT, AND NEVER WILL condone ANY of Eric and/or Dylan's actions on 4/20.

I don't want anyone to think otherwise.

I am interested in examining the thought processes that led both boys to want to kill. But I will never excuse murder.

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LPorter101 wrote:
Undyne wrote:
Oh, and psychopath doesn't mean that the person has no emotions.  Just thought I'd say that again.

You know, the definition of psychopath changes so often that I can't made heads or tails of it.

Psychopath: Anyone who is angry, smarter than average, and has weird ideas that upset the normals and doesn't feel bad about it.

Alternate definition: Anyone who commits a violent crime or insurrectionist act. There are no sane people who do this because everything is perfect and injustice doesn't happen anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 10:47 am

Alright i'm just adding my thoughts here a bit , don't mind me :

A pyscho mastermind doesn't :

-write his thoughts on the internet only to be found by virtually everyone
-doesn't have a person say back to him/her "You can pull the wool over everyone else's eyes but not me" (Judy)
-doesn't get rejected by girls or doesn't score , a mastermind slays poon left and right
-is very popular, not on a low social ladder


He was definitely good at keeping face but far from being a mastermind. Bundy was a mastermind until he fucked up too. No one can keep the act up forever with very few exceptions (like the guy who poisoned those pills and was never found to this day). Kids at school could smell the "different" aura he had and the body language was telling. If kids figure you out , you aren't a mastermind.

Just sayin' , the ignorance of others (police , community about red flags) doesn't give pass to call someone a mastermind. Furthermore , a mastermind doesn't show any red flags. I'd call Dylan the mastermind.
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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 10:49 am

Quote :
-doesn't get rejected by girls or doesn't score , a mastermind slays poon left and right
-is very popular, not on a low social ladder

Dates were not generally a problem. Eric was a brain, but an uncommon subcategory: cool brain.... And he got chicks. Lots and lots of chicks.

On the ultimate high school scorecard, Eric outscored much of the football team. He was a little charmer. He walked right up to hotties at the mall. He won them over with quick wit, dazzling dimples, and a disarming smile.


I have demolished your argument.

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I do as well. I find Eric more relatable than Dylan, although I do have some similarities to Dylan also (and by relatability and similarities, I mean depression, anxiety, etc). I hate when people say Eric was psychotic while Dylan was a mere puppet in the shooting. Eric felt remorse, Eric let people go as well, Eric had low self esteem issues and was also depressed, etc. He wasn't a person full of hate, like he and others claim, but a teenage boy just like Dylan who was looking for love and acceptance but ultimately ended up lashing out in an extreme, violent, and saddening way. I'm not someone who condones what they did either, but feeling like an outcast is something I have dealt with my whole life and is what initially drew me into researching this case.

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LPorter101 wrote:

What do you believe, Undyne?

I believe that you and some other members of this forum don't understand what psychopath means. I'm not trying to be mean, but I am getting a little irritated whenever someone points to Eric displaying emotions as evidence that he wasn't a psychopath. Proponents of this diagnosis make no claim that psychopaths do not display emotions. They also don't say that they are just plain crazy.

"Well, a psychopath is not what the news media portray him or her to be. That is, they are not psychotic, they are not crazy, they are not nuts. These are not people that are mentally, psychiatrically, or even legally insane." - Robert Hare
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Undyne wrote:
LPorter101 wrote:

What do you believe, Undyne?

I believe that you and some other members of this forum don't understand what psychopath means.  I'm not trying to be mean, but I am getting a little irritated whenever someone points to Eric displaying emotions as evidence that he wasn't a psychopath.  Proponents of this diagnosis make no claim that psychopaths do not display emotions.  They also don't say that they are just plain crazy.

"Well, a psychopath is not what the news media portray him or her to be.  That is, they are not psychotic, they are not crazy, they are not nuts.  These are not people that are mentally, psychiatrically, or even legally insane."  - Robert Hare

Stop telling us what they aren't and tell us what they are.

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
You aren't alone here. Many of us have experienced what you have along with much bullying. Welcome.

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LPorter101 wrote:
Undyne wrote:
LPorter101 wrote:

What do you believe, Undyne?

I believe that you and some other members of this forum don't understand what psychopath means.  I'm not trying to be mean, but I am getting a little irritated whenever someone points to Eric displaying emotions as evidence that he wasn't a psychopath.  Proponents of this diagnosis make no claim that psychopaths do not display emotions.  They also don't say that they are just plain crazy.

"Well, a psychopath is not what the news media portray him or her to be.  That is, they are not psychotic, they are not crazy, they are not nuts.  These are not people that are mentally, psychiatrically, or even legally insane."  - Robert Hare

Stop telling us what they aren't and tell us what they are.

"(Psychopaths are) people who I think, at the core, lack a real concern and emotional connection with people.  They don't seem to understand that other people have rights.  I think this is partly because of a stunning incapacity - a lack of capacity - for empathy.  I think if you wanted a shorthand term, it would be people who lack a conscience."

This seems to describe Eric fairly well, even taking into account his love for his parents.
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Here is what Dr. Peter Langman wrote about Eric:

Eric Harris, age 18

Eric Harris, along with Dylan Klebold, committed the rampage shooting at Columbine High School. He came from an intact, well-functioning family (Columbine Review Commission, 2001).

Eric was an expert in impression management. He took pleasure in lying to people and getting away with things. He wrote, “I could convince them [school administrators] that I’m going to climb Mount Everest, or that I have a twin brother growing out of my back . . . I can make you believe anything”

Eric’s writings revel in his ability to fool his parents, school personnel, and others. He charmed his way to an early termination of a probation program he was ordered to participate in following his arrest for stealing electronic equipment from a van. At the same time that he was conning the legal professionals, he was writing scathing remarks about the situation in his journal (JCSO, 1999, pp. 26,116, 26,005).

Psychopaths do not recognize laws or morality as constraints on their behavior. Eric wrote repeatedly in his journal about his rejection of traditional values. He stated, “Morals is just another word” (JCSO, 1999, p. 26,012). Elsewhere he wrote, “There’s no such thing as True Good or True evil” (JCSO, 1999, p. 26,010).

His refusal to acknowledge morality made it easy for him to violate social norms and laws. Prior to the attack, Eric broke many laws. He stole in the community and he stole at school (Bartels & Crowder, 1999; JCSO, 1999, pp. 10,697, 10,718). He vandalized homes of peers and he vandalized a commercial establishment (JCSO, 1997; JCSO, 1999, p. 19,642). He bought guns illegally and detonated homemade bombs for fun (Pitzel, 2004; JCSO, 1999, p. 10,426). He hacked into the school’s computer system and engaged in credit card fraud (JCSO, 1999, pp. 497, 10,381). Eric’s disregard for social norms was manifest long before the attack.

Eric was grandiose. He wrote “Ich bin Gott,” which is German for “I am God,” in his school planner and the yearbooks of his friends (JCSO, 1999, pp. 960, 2,234, 10,713, 26,087). Eric declared, “My belief is that if I say something, it goes. I am the law” (JCSO, 1999, p. 10,415). Despite his desire to be God, he knew that he wasn’t: “I feel like God and I wish I was, having everyone being OFFICIALLY lower than me” (JCSO, 1999, p. 26,005). This statement indicates that he did not have a delusion
of grandeur, but rather the aspiration to be recognized as superior to everyone else.

Eric was callous and sadistic. He fantasized about raping girls he knew (JCSO, 1999, p. 26,016), and also fantasized about mutilating people:

I want to tear a throat out with my own teeth like a pop can. I want to gut someone with my hand, to tear a head off and rip out the heart and lungs from the neck, to stab someone in the gut, shove it up to their heart, and yank the fucking blade out of their rib cage! I want to grab some weak little freshman and just tear them apart like a wolf, show them who is god. Strangle them, squish their
head, bite their temples in the skull, rip off their jaw . . . the lovely sounds of bones cracking and flesh ripping, ahhh . . . so much to do and so little chances. (JCSO, 1999, p. 26,016)

Eric’s behavior during the attack was also notable for his sadism. He taunted people and laughed as he gunned them down.

Eric’s combination of narcissism, sadism, impression management, delight in deception, and rejection of morality and law define him as a psychopathic school shooter.
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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 12:41 pm

Undyne wrote:
LPorter101 wrote:
Undyne wrote:
LPorter101 wrote:

What do you believe, Undyne?

I believe that you and some other members of this forum don't understand what psychopath means.  I'm not trying to be mean, but I am getting a little irritated whenever someone points to Eric displaying emotions as evidence that he wasn't a psychopath.  Proponents of this diagnosis make no claim that psychopaths do not display emotions.  They also don't say that they are just plain crazy.

"Well, a psychopath is not what the news media portray him or her to be.  That is, they are not psychotic, they are not crazy, they are not nuts.  These are not people that are mentally, psychiatrically, or even legally insane."  - Robert Hare

Stop telling us what they aren't and tell us what they are.

"(Psychopaths are) people who I think, at the core, lack a real concern and emotional connection with people.  They don't seem to understand that other people have rights.  I think this is partly because of a stunning incapacity - a lack of capacity - for empathy.  I think if you wanted a shorthand term, it would be people who lack a conscience."



This seems to describe Eric fairly well, even taking into account his love for his parents.



Actually, if you take into account Dylan's full participation in the shooting and would be bombing, that could sound like him as well.
Also, Dylan also hooted and yelled and laughed as he shot people in the library.
The entire diagnosis of Eric as a psychopath seems to be rooted entirely in his diary entries.
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EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Empty
PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 1:02 pm

Undyne wrote:
LPorter101 wrote:
Undyne wrote:
LPorter101 wrote:

What do you believe, Undyne?

I believe that you and some other members of this forum don't understand what psychopath means.  I'm not trying to be mean, but I am getting a little irritated whenever someone points to Eric displaying emotions as evidence that he wasn't a psychopath.  Proponents of this diagnosis make no claim that psychopaths do not display emotions.  They also don't say that they are just plain crazy.

"Well, a psychopath is not what the news media portray him or her to be.  That is, they are not psychotic, they are not crazy, they are not nuts.  These are not people that are mentally, psychiatrically, or even legally insane."  - Robert Hare

Stop telling us what they aren't and tell us what they are.

"(Psychopaths are) people who I think, at the core, lack a real concern and emotional connection with people.  They don't seem to understand that other people have rights.  I think this is partly because of a stunning incapacity - a lack of capacity - for empathy.  I think if you wanted a shorthand term, it would be people who lack a conscience."

This seems to describe Eric fairly well, even taking into account his love for his parents.

That also describes a large number of people who don't commit any crimes. That definition is so broad it could be applied to almost anyone. Almost any teenager, too. Many people who have type A personalities or are introverts could fit that description. Many people in states of psychological turmoil don't have the emotional resources to focus on anyone other than themselves either.

As for not having real concern or emotional connection with other people--what about Eric's friend in Oscoda, who got hurt in the woods, and Eric rode his bike a long distance back to the house (when he himself was also hurt) to get help for his friend? What about all the friends he made in the other places he lived? What about Dylan--he wouldn't have stayed around if Eric was mean and insensitive to him.

Eric was impatient with people, and he didn't immediately feel or think what people told him to feel or think. Maybe he didn't connect with the majority of people in Littleton because there weren't many people around who he saw eye to eye with? Because look at how committed he was to Dylan--someone he did "click" with. Someone who cannot form real emotional connections with people does not plan and carry out a terrorist attack with a best friend who is participating by choice.

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fxiths




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EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Empty
PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 1:04 pm

PaintItBlack wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
You aren't alone here. Many of us have experienced what you have along with much bullying. Welcome.

Thank you. Smile
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Broken Angel




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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 1:57 pm

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Last edited by Broken Angel on Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PaintItBlack

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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeTue Feb 16, 2016 6:41 am

Broken Angel wrote:
I'm fucking done with everyone blaming Eric for everything and Dylan being seen as a little lost puppy. Never thought I'd say this but I've become almost protective over Eric because of how he is portrayed. If the basement tapes were to be released I'm sure people would see Eric and Dylan much differently!

@Broken _Angel,
This is exactly how I feel. I feel closest to Dylan but but the constant demonization makes me feel very protective over Eric.
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PaintItBlack

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EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Empty
PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeWed Feb 17, 2016 2:23 pm

For those who care abut Eric and are upset about what's been said about him lately, I'd like to share an attempt by some Columbiners to send him some love and light. Obviously, people who hate him will be disgusted by it but I found some comfort both from it and the fact that out of 566 likes, there were only 3 mean comments. I hope it comforts someone else too.

[size=36]ERIC HARRIS PROTECTION CIRCLE.[/size]


AND APPRICIATION POST. WE LOVE AND MISS YOU TOO, ERIC.


Literally fuck what they have to say. You’re our sweet baby boy. Rest in Peace Eric David Harris. You were a handsome, smart, strong, amazing kid. We wish you were here with us. Don’t let anyone tell you different, keep smiling. You’re not a monster. Not a freak. You live in our hearts and your family’s as well. We hope you’re happy where you are now, the pain is gone honey, it gets better. And I’m sorry nobody could say it when they had the chance.

_________________
We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus; That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.-Charles Bukowski

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Fatheroftwo




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EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Empty
PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeThu Feb 18, 2016 3:13 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] & [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Each of you have played a big part in my processing of 4/20. "Walking in your shoes" to a degree by hearing/sharing your thoughts & experiences undoubtedly allowed me to see E&D as more than just mass murderers.

I've always been an anti bully guy & root for the underdog, but struggled to spend time looking @ the "cause" vs the "effect" in 4/20. This site & y'alls participation has allowed me to be more complete & balanced.

A friend & mentor shared with me one time, that while it's tough to love any one of your children more than the other... he loved the most troubled one the most as they needed it the most.

That could certainly be said for E&D.

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PaintItBlack

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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeThu Feb 18, 2016 7:07 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Thank you. I can honestly say that I've learned from you too since you've been here.

_________________
We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus; That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.-Charles Bukowski
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LPorter101
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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeFri Feb 19, 2016 12:35 pm

I guess I keep coming back to this:

In my life, so many folks, in so many ways, have written me off as crazy, or broken, or mentally defective, or unworthy of the admiration and respect and love that "normal" and "healthy" people deserve.

I will not write Eric off.

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Why does anyone do anything?
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PaintItBlack

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EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Empty
PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeFri Feb 19, 2016 1:29 pm

I agree LPorter.I won't ever give up on him either.

_________________
We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus; That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.-Charles Bukowski
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Undyne




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PostSubject: Re: EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias)   EDIT: Does Eric get a bad rap? (Was: I have a pro-Eric bias) Icon_minitimeFri Feb 19, 2016 2:38 pm

People call Eric crazy because he murdered people and enjoyed it.
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