Imagine how many cute child pictures & sweet stories Eric's Mom would have?

If she wrote a book like this? Pictures of a cute , smiling, happy baby and little kid Eric? Playing in the snow, laughing in the grass running through the leaves? Blowing out candles on Birthday cakes and opening Christmas presents in front of artfully decorated Christmas trees?

Sweet stories of holding his parents hands on long walks and afternoon basketball games and begging for just one more story at bedtime?

The stories of Eric and Kathy's long talks as a teenager and how close she thought they were?
Her high hopes for the future of her son?
His parents weeping as they had to arrange his funeral and maybe even tears in front of a closed casket at the funeral home? How sad and lonely it was to come home to a house without him after his cremation?

All the things are lovely and very heartrending to hear.
Especially since I truly believe that Eric and Dylan were indeed wonderful babies and children. I have never had a reason to doubt that.

Despite that, though I fail to see how such pictures and stories prove or mean that Dylan was any better than Eric in life or death or why he is more deserving of understanding , feeling and sympathy than Eric is.

Because Dylan was more complex of the two. He had many associates/friends, many girls who liked him but he still felt bad about himself. To show how complex he was, he set his fantasy baseball lineup for the day or week he was going to die. He had genuine plans to go to college and do something with his life but the urge to die overpowered everything else. Murder came 2nd to suicide to Dylan, in my opinion. It didn't help Eric was in his ear. If Eric survived or if Columbine never happened, he would have went on to commit something else. Maybe even a September 11th type attack.

Sorry, Sane One but I do not accept your theory or agree with it at all. I don't find any truth in it.
We will have to agree to totally disagree.

Eric wasn't depressed. Dylan was. Dylan wanted to die. Eric didn't. Dylan personally let John Savage go because he still had some compassion. Eric let Brooks go because it just wasn't smart to kill him at that particular moment. This example is a prime of example of how different the two really were.

What about how when Eric broke his nose and was talking to Bree Pascale, Dylan was in the background yelling at Eric to shoot her?
Eric didn't, told Bree the school was going to blow up so everybody would die anyway, then walked away.
Doesn't sound like much difference to me.

Because its widely believed by the public that Eric was the charming mastermind with no remorse. I mean just look at how the general public takes what Cullen wrote as the gospel truth and it being the most popular and well known book on Columbine. I would love to hear Kathy tell stories of Eric as well. Dylan is the more complex one, but it'd be nice to see Cullen proven wrong again.

I don't really care what Cullen says. I'm just making a logical guess from all the evidence we have on what type of guys they really were. Only reason Eric didn't kill more people was because he was disorientated from the broken nose. If their lives were videotaped from start to finish, I'm willing to bet money Eric Harris was the one who sparked the Columbine Massacre.

@Sane One,
Eric not shooting Bree because of his broken nose was not the reason I brought the incident up.
I brought it up to illustrate that in a moment when for whatever reason, Eric was somewhat passive Dylan was yelling for Eric to commit homicidal violence on Bree.He obviously did that of his own free will at that moment.

I mean it's difficult to say what's logical when we have things that directly conflict with how Eric is painted (and not just by Cullen). There are so many holes in how people view him such as him tearing up on camera, being awkward and showing insecurity on school footage (in cafeteria and facing jocks), caring for his pet, the list could go on and on. There are also so many little instances where it's almost as if he wants to get caught. I don't blame one more than the other for what happened at Columbine.

I feel like that if Columbine never happend or Eric and Dylan never met, Dylan would end up killing himself if it came to it, but Eric would be the one who took other people with him. A type of "if I'm going to die you're all coming with me" attitude.

I don't get the feeling that Dylan was more compassionate than Eric.  I also feel that Eric was just as complex as Dylan.  I think that Eric's journal reflected what he wanted us to believe about him, not necessarily the truth or everything there is to know about him.  

I would love to know what type of parents Eric's parents were.  I wonder if they were the type who were very affectionate to Eric? Based on what Tom Mauser wrote about them, I get the feeling that they weren't affectionate......that they weren't the type to just act silly and goof around with their kids and lovingly joke with them, laugh at the dinner table over something stupid, randomly hug their kids and say "I love you" etc.  I know a lot of parents like that......they are wonderful concerned parents......but completely lack affection  and aren't all that down to earth.

I really hope that one day Eric's parents will come forward and say something.  I feel that he was just as complex as Dylan, but sadly everything he did gets written off as psychopathy.

Freezingmoon wrote:

I don't get the feeling that Dylan was more compassionate than Eric.  I also feel that Eric was just as complex as Dylan.  I think that Eric's journal reflected what he wanted us to believe about him, not necessarily the truth or everything there is to know about him.  

I would love to know what type of parents Eric's parents were.  I wonder if they were the type who were very affectionate to Eric? Based on what Tom Mauser wrote about them, I get the feeling that they weren't affectionate......that they weren't the type to just act silly and goof around with their kids and lovingly joke with them, laugh at the dinner table over something stupid, randomly hug their kids and say "I love you" etc.  I know a lot of parents like that......they are wonderful concerned parents......but completely lack affection  and aren't all that down to earth.

I really hope that one day Eric's parents will come forward and say something.  I feel that he was just as complex as Dylan, but sadly everything he did gets written off as psychopathy.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Yes, but how much could Tom Mauser really fairly and accurately tell about what kind of parents they were from a strained 3 or 4 hour meeting?
We are talking a 3 or 4 hour meeting up against 18 full years of raising a child?
I don't think he was around them enough to be able to make a fair assumption.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Freezingmoon wrote:

I don't get the feeling that Dylan was more compassionate than Eric.  I also feel that Eric was just as complex as Dylan.  I think that Eric's journal reflected what he wanted us to believe about him, not necessarily the truth or everything there is to know about him.  

I would love to know what type of parents Eric's parents were.  I wonder if they were the type who were very affectionate to Eric? Based on what Tom Mauser wrote about them, I get the feeling that they weren't affectionate......that they weren't the type to just act silly and goof around with their kids and lovingly joke with them, laugh at the dinner table over something stupid, randomly hug their kids and say "I love you" etc.  I know a lot of parents like that......they are wonderful concerned parents......but completely lack affection  and aren't all that down to earth.

I really hope that one day Eric's parents will come forward and say something.  I feel that he was just as complex as Dylan, but sadly everything he did gets written off as psychopathy.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Yes, but how much could Tom Mauser really fairly and accurately tell about what kind of parents they were from a strained 3 or 4 hour meeting?
We are talking a 3 or 4 hour meeting up against 18 full years of raising a child?
I don't think he was around them enough to be able to make a fair assumption.

Yeah, I guess you're right. I can't even imagine how awkward and difficult that meeting must have been for them. Plus, I'm sure the Mausers were looking for something from the parents, anything, in an attempt to figure out why Eric turned out the way he did.  But their account is all we really have  at this point

If Dylan was the one who sparked everything, he has me fooled then. I consider myself somewhat intelligent having hung around plenty of people, some great and some not so great so it takes a lot to fool me but from what I've seen, the way he carries himself and stumbles upon his words time after time, he doesn't come off as somebody who sparked the Columbine Massacre. He comes off as somebody who was fed a bunch of shit by somebody who wanted to kill as many people as possible who even went to extreme lengths to figure out what time the cafeteria held the most people possible. But hey, that's just me.

I'm not saying Dylan isn't at fault, he's 100% at fault. He just wasn't the one who sparked the entire event. You can thank Eric Harris for that one.

Sane One, If Dylan was drug into this almost entirely by Eric as you seem to believe then he was one weak willed individual with no sense of his own identity, feelings or beliefs.
That's about all you can say if your scenario is correct.

Sane One,
How about they both sparked this tragedy?
Is that so hard to envision? Or believe?

Deleted

I wouldn't bother disagreeing with PaintItBlack if I were you. You'll never hear the end of it if you say something against Eric. Not only in this thread, but she will relentlessly contaminate other topics too.

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

I wouldn't bother disagreeing with PaintItBlack if I were you. You'll never hear the end of it if you say something against Eric. Not only in this thread, but she will relentlessly contaminate other topics too.

Everyone play nice now

First off, I disagree with some of the posts on here. Dylan Klebold was equally, if not just as messed up as Eric Harris was. As a matter of fact, people STILL to this day try to label Eric as the mastermind, and Dylan the follower? My god people, it's not that easy. I highly doubt either was leader. Eric has the more dominant personality, yes...but that doesn't mean he was necessarily the "leader" of the attack, or even the "mastermind" of the attack. Dylan was a disturbed young man. His journal has "Crazy" written all over It, but that's just me. Some of his stuff is so just odd, and out of touch with reality that you have to wonder what type of stage this young man was in. Eric's journal on the other hand is more of stealing many philosophical ideas from other philosophers, and spouting off hatred, and to show off a side to the public that he WANTED people to see because he PURPOSELY wrote for an audience. He even left his journal in plain view for the police to take it.

The Basement Tapes in my opinion show a more accurate portion of the boys. Eric cried on the Basement Tapes! Do you really think he wanted to cry? Hell no. He wanted to be this big bad man that he portrayed himself in the journals, and yet in the Basement Tapes he kept hesitating with his words, apologizing to his parents constantly, crying over friends, and even on the last day they were alive before the attack he was hesitating to leave, and the officer who wrote the transcript for us was specific when he said "(eventually), That's it. Goodbye."-Harris. There must have been a pause what Eric was saying, and how he actually thought he was going to do this. Dylan? Dylan on the basement tapes didn't give a shit about anyone. You want to know what he thanked his parents for? Self awareness. Eric on the other hand would not stop talking about how his mom would do all little great things for him. Dylan on the other hand basically told his parents "You don't like what I'm going to do? That's too bad. It's my life. I'm going to do what I want." Eric would be apologizing, and saying his parents probably made mistakes they weren't aware of. I mean really? Come on. There's a distinct difference between the two.

Dylan also wrote about going NBK first. Actually, Eric wasn't even his first choice. Zack Hackler probably was, and once Zack left him for Devon, Dylan became closer with Eric. It seems to me as Dylan started giving poisonous thoughts to Eric, not the other way around. I feel as if Dylan would just plant these ideas in Eric's head, "Hey man...these jocks are such pricks. Imagine if we killed these fuckers." And eventually Eric would think "That's a great idea". Dylan was lazy. There is no doubt in my mind that he would NOT have done the Columbine massacre. He probably would have shot up the college like Cho did IMO in a probably more sloppier way. Eric was what he needed. Eric was a planner. The reason why I think Dylan gave the idea to Eric is because Eric was NOT Dylan's first choice in killing people.

Dylan giving poisonous thoughts to Eric, I mean really? The guy who plays Doom 24/7 who went as far as creating his own levels gets poisoned by somebody? The guy who was filled with so much anger dating back to 1997 who created websites filled with threats towards many people gets poisoned by the guy (Dylan) who actually ratted him out and looked out for people who Eric threatened, like Brooks Brown. I'm content with my opinion, Eric sparked the Columbine Massacre. It's a logical opinion until proven otherwise.

What exactly do you mean by sparked the massacre? I mean Dylan is the one that first brings it up, so are you just saying Eric was the one who really brought the plan to life with the planning?

Sane One wrote:

Eric wasn't depressed. Dylan was. Dylan wanted to die. Eric didn't. Dylan personally let John Savage go because he still had some compassion. Eric let Brooks go because it just wasn't smart to kill him at that particular moment. This example is a prime of example of how different the two really were.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Eric ticked a box for depression in the mental health survey he was handed on the diversion program. Page 5.

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

I wouldn't bother disagreeing with PaintItBlack if I were you. You'll never hear the end of it if you say something against Eric. Not only in this thread, but she will relentlessly contaminate other topics too.

Now Radioactive_Clothing,I understand that you dislike most Columbiners, but was that really necessary?
I don't think it was.
I'm obviously a person for whom this has great meaning in my life since I've been a Columbiner since day 1 , which is over half my life now. So naturally I'm going to have a lot of passionate comments to make about these recent developments. I'm sorry that you feel I am contaminating threads but if my posts bother you that badly, why don't you ask the mods if there is a way to block my posts so they won't show up for you anymore?

Sane One wrote:

Dylan giving poisonous thoughts to Eric, I mean really?  The guy who plays Doom 24/7 who went as far as creating his own levels gets poisoned by somebody? The guy who was filled with so much anger dating back to 1997 who created websites filled with threats towards many people gets poisoned by the guy (Dylan) who actually ratted him out and looked out for people who Eric threatened, like Brooks Brown.  I'm content with my opinion, Eric sparked the Columbine Massacre. It's a logical opinion until proven otherwise.

Or are you too stubborn to back away from your opinion?

Prove to me that Dylan was somehow a follower. The Basement Tapes tell you you're wrong, and Dylan was no follower of Eric. Eric leeched off Dylan. Are you aware that most of Eric's friends were Dylan's CLOSE friends? Sounds to me as if Eric was brought into the group by Dylan, and they tolerated Eric till he became more ridiculous.

lol wrote:

Sane One wrote:

Dylan giving poisonous thoughts to Eric, I mean really?  The guy who plays Doom 24/7 who went as far as creating his own levels gets poisoned by somebody? The guy who was filled with so much anger dating back to 1997 who created websites filled with threats towards many people gets poisoned by the guy (Dylan) who actually ratted him out and looked out for people who Eric threatened, like Brooks Brown.  I'm content with my opinion, Eric sparked the Columbine Massacre. It's a logical opinion until proven otherwise.

Or are you too stubborn to back away from your opinion?

Prove to me that Dylan was somehow a follower. The Basement Tapes tell you you're wrong, and Dylan was no follower of Eric. Eric leeched off Dylan. Are you aware that most of Eric's friends were Dylan's CLOSE friends? Sounds to me as if Eric was brought into the group by Dylan, and they tolerated Eric till he became more ridiculous.

Excellent point, LOL. I had never thought of it that way, but it makes very good sense.