11am 4/20/99 Imagine Dylan saying: "Reb, I cant do this..."

What if Dylan or Eric decided at the last minute (literally) they could not go through with it. We know that they both lived for the event ,they planned it and fantasied about it. What if the real deal was just to much to commit? There were many things for them to live for. They had lots of things to look forward to ,education ,girls ,cars ,money, etc. They were kids and had their whole lives ahead of them. What i would like to know is this : If Eric stopped the madness and told Dylan to go it alone ,would Dylan have gone it alone and committed the act by himself? What if Dylan refused to be party to it? Would Eric have gone it alone and committed the act alone? Were their hearts and minds committed to each other in such a way that they had to do it together or not do it at all?

If the "real deal" was too much to commit, they wouldn't have gone through with the massacre but that is preposterous to even think about considering all the work they did to prepare for the shooting. They had their whole lives ahead of them, but what would they achieve? That is speculation within itself and it is best not to delve too much into the unknown.

I believe Dylan was doing the shooting that day no matter what, and if Eric backed down, he would become a 14th victim.

Ivan wrote:

If the "real deal" was too much to commit, they wouldn't have gone through with the massacre but that is preposterous to even think about considering all the work they did to prepare for the shooting. They had their whole lives ahead of them, but what would they achieve? That is speculation within itself and it is best not to delve too much into the unknown.

I believe Dylan was doing the shooting that day no matter what, and if Eric backed down, he would become a 14th victim.

To be honest I feel like Dylan wouldn't have done it without Eric, much like Eric wouldn't do it without Dylan. What's the point of going through with a massacre alone that you planned to do with your best friend for over a year? I feel like Dylan would just commit suicide. I've no clue about what Eric would do though.

Dylan never said "I can't do this," but he was slow to participate. Eric fired 47 outside the school. Dylan 5.

Lisa Kreutz heard Eric asking Dylan, "You're still with me right?" before they walked into the library. Perhaps Eric was referring to the low shot count, but he may also have observed reluctance in Dylan.

Of course, Eric knew exactly what to do to get Dylan back in line. He didn't have to shoot Dylan. He just had to shoot others, and Dylan would be forever implicated. And that's what he did.

lasttrain wrote:

Dylan never said "I can't do this," but he was slow to participate.  Eric fired 47 outside the school.  Dylan 5.  

Lisa Kreutz heard Eric asking Dylan, "You're still with me right?" before they walked into the library.  Perhaps Eric was referring to the low shot count, but he may also have observed reluctance in Dylan.

Of course, Eric knew exactly what to do to get Dylan back in line.  He didn't have to shoot Dylan.  He just had to shoot others, and Dylan would be forever implicated.  And that's what he did.  

I don't think the creator of the thread was saying Dylan actually said it. I think they were saying "what if" Dylan or Eric said they couldn't go through with it. What do you think would have happened "if" one of the boys said "I can't do this"? And I thought it was Dylan who asked Eric if he was still with him? I may have it mixed up, but I always thought Dylan was the one who said that to Eric. Maybe not though.

lasttrain wrote:

 

Lisa Kreutz heard Eric asking Dylan, "You're still with me right?" before they walked into the library.  Perhaps Eric was referring to the low shot count, but he may also have observed reluctance in Dylan.

Unless my memory is playing tricks, my understanding from previous postings and 11k was that we don't know for sure who said ''you're still with me?'' and ''we're still doing this, right?''. Some think it may have been Dylan having a moment of doubt and needing some ''reassurance'' based on his position forward and looking back with knotted brows towards Eric in the hallway in front of the Library.

The low shot count came afterward from forensics analysis. I highly doubt Eric was counting or being very much aware how many shots Dylan was firing as he was busy himself. Dylan did fire at Rachel and Richard as well as shooting point blank Lance Kirklin when outside. He seemed to be moving around a lot more than Eric when outside the school: going down and back up the stairs and into the school which may account for his fewer shots. Also, he seemed to be shooting more ''up-close and personal'' (fewer shots needed) than Eric who was just going off at random (many shots). Eric just positionned himself on the fence and fired repeatedly, exchanging fire with an armed guard coming on the site.

I was just wondering about what would have happened if Eric or Dylan decided ( at the last minute ) that they could not go through with it ( before any shots were fired ) I realize that it is a silly question and can never be answered. Im just interested to know about how deeply they were bonded and how the incident could have panned out differently ,if one of them had walked away ( before any shots were fired)

It's not stupid at all, on the contrary. We're here to wonder and ask about it all.

Hi jayjay, do you think Eric and Dylan ever had second thoughts about committing the attack? I have been reading the 11k and i came across a girl called Susan Dewitt. Do you know about Susan and Eric's ' relationship ', days before the attack? Apparently ,Eric really liked her.

If he met Susan in 1998, maybe Eric wouldn´t do what he did. He liked her und she liked him. After his death she wrote him a lovely letter.

Hi Em81, did Dylan have a girlfriend?

Jenn wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Dylan never said "I can't do this," but he was slow to participate.  Eric fired 47 outside the school.  Dylan 5.  

Lisa Kreutz heard Eric asking Dylan, "You're still with me right?" before they walked into the library.  Perhaps Eric was referring to the low shot count, but he may also have observed reluctance in Dylan.

Of course, Eric knew exactly what to do to get Dylan back in line.  He didn't have to shoot Dylan.  He just had to shoot others, and Dylan would be forever implicated.  And that's what he did.  

I don't think the creator of the thread was saying Dylan actually said it. I think they were saying "what if" Dylan or Eric said they couldn't go through with it.

Yes, I understood the intention of the thread.

I was saying that while Dylan did not actually back out, he was in reality slow to join in, so we do have some indication of how Eric might have addressed the hypothetical if we look at the actual events.

JayJay wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

 

Lisa Kreutz heard Eric asking Dylan, "You're still with me right?" before they walked into the library.  Perhaps Eric was referring to the low shot count, but he may also have observed reluctance in Dylan.

Unless my memory is playing tricks, my understanding from previous postings and 11k was that we don't know for sure who said ''you're still with me?'' and ''we're still doing this, right?''. Some think it may have been Dylan having a moment of doubt and needing some ''reassurance'' based on his position forward and looking back with knotted brows towards Eric in the hallway in front of the Library.

The low shot count came afterward from forensics analysis. I highly doubt Eric was counting or being very much aware how many shots Dylan was firing as he was busy himself. Dylan did fire at Rachel and Richard as well as shooting point blank Lance Kirklin when outside. He seemed to be moving around a lot more than Eric when outside the school: going down and back up the stairs and into the school which may account for his fewer shots. Also, he seemed to be shooting more ''up-close and personal'' (fewer shots needed) than Eric who was just going off at random (many shots). Eric just positionned himself on the fence and fired repeatedly, exchanging fire with an armed guard coming on the site.

It is inconceivable that Dylan was saying it to Eric, because Eric was firing as fast as he could, had already committed multiple acts of homicide, and had even engaged an armed police officer with great aggression. Dylan had no basis to question Eric. Therefore, it must've been Eric saying it to Dylan.

I would have to point out that Eric would not have had to count every shot to observe a discrepancy. It was 9:1. That's dramatic. And Eric was left by himself to shoot it out with Gardner. Clearly, Eric had reason to feel Dylan was losing his nerve. But in reality, we don't even need that speculation. All we need to know is it had to be one of them saying it, and it couldn't have been Dylan, because he had no basis for saying it.

No, Dylan had no girlfriend. But he was in love with an ominous girl. He wrote her a letter, a cry for help, but never send it to her. Many people here think she was Marla Foust, a girl from CHS. But I need a proof to believe it. He wanted love so much, if you read his journal, you will see it. It´s really sad.

I'm one of those who think if Eric and/or Dylan had a girlfriend and a lot of sex, they may have cancelled their plans, if it had happened at least a few months before or before the gun being bought.

Sexuality and aggressivity = there's a powerful combination. More studies should be done on this.

Lisa Kreutz 000062 - The door to the Library is always propped open and she could hear two people coming into the Library. She remembers hearing one of the gunmen say to the other one, "Are you still with me?" and "We're still gonna do this, right?" After entering the Library the gunmen started yelling ...


*In regards to how many shots fired by Dylan:

9MM INTRA-TEC SEMI-AUTOMATIC PISTOL MODEL TEC-DC9 [CBI 23/JCSO 903] 9MM MAGAZINES: 4

Library West:
CBI 34/JCSO 1093 [Magazine with 3 Rounds],

Main Hallway:
CBI 30/JCSO 1859 [Broken Magazine and Frame/Spring],

Outside:
CBI 213/JCSO 2358 [50 Round Magazine with 40 Rounds],

BMW (Klebold):
CBI 991/JCSO 6004 [{36 Round} Magazine with 34 Rounds] - Found Between Driver's Seat/Floor Board

As you can see Dylan was misplacing/dropping/having trouble with the magazines that day. In the basement tapes, Dylan states that he has a "50 round clip, two 36's & a 24"

Well, 1 of the 36 round magazines was found in his BMW & the 50 round magazine was found on the grass outside on the hill where E&D had been.

34 rounds were found in the 36 round mag & 40 rounds were found in the 50 round mag = 90 live [not fired] rounds.

Dylan had shortchanged himself of over half of his 9mm ammo that day.

*Also, Dylan fired 19 rounds from one spot in the Main Hallway, where a BROKEN magazine was found. There were no remaining rounds found in that magazine.

Therefore, sometime into the shooting, Dylan was down to only 1 working magazine.


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sororityalpha wrote:

Lisa Kreutz 000062 - The door to the Library is always propped open and she could hear two people  coming into the Library. She remembers hearing one of the gunmen say to the other one, "Are you still with me?" and "We're still gonna do this, right?" After entering the Library the gunmen started yelling ...


*In regards to how many shots fired by Dylan:

9MM INTRA-TEC SEMI-AUTOMATIC PISTOL MODEL TEC-DC9 [CBI 23/JCSO 903] 9MM MAGAZINES: 4

Library West:
CBI 34/JCSO 1093 [Magazine with 3 Rounds],

Main Hallway:
CBI 30/JCSO 1859 [Broken Magazine and Frame/Spring],

Outside:
CBI 213/JCSO 2358 [50 Round Magazine with 40 Rounds],

BMW (Klebold):
CBI 991/JCSO 6004 [{36 Round} Magazine with 34 Rounds] - Found Between Driver's Seat/Floor Board

As you can see Dylan was misplacing/dropping/having trouble with the magazines that day. In the basement tapes, Dylan states that he has a "50 round clip, two 36's & a 24"

Well, 1 of the 36 round magazines was found in his BMW & the 50 round magazine was found on the grass outside on the hill where E&D had been.

34 rounds were found in the 36 round mag & 40 rounds were found in the 50 round mag = 90 live [not fired] rounds.

Dylan had shortchanged himself of over half of his 9mm ammo that day.

*Also, Dylan fired 19 rounds from one spot in the Main Hallway, where a BROKEN magazine was found. There were no remaining rounds found in that magazine.

Therefore, sometime into the shooting, Dylan was down to only 1 working magazine.


More detailed information here:

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Thank you for the great detail!

JayJay wrote:

I'm one of those who think if Eric and/or Dylan had a girlfriend and a lot of sex, they may have cancelled their plans, if it had happened at least a few months before or before the gun being bought.

Sexuality and aggressivity = there's a powerful combination. More studies should be done on this.

You have a point there. A good dose of love may have been the medication they both desperately needed.

em81 wrote:

No, Dylan had no girlfriend. But he was in love with an ominous girl. He wrote her a letter, a cry for help, but never send it to her. Many people here think she was Marla Foust, a girl from CHS. But I need a proof to believe it. He wanted love so much, if you read his journal, you will see it. It´s really sad.

I have been reading his journal and i agree with you regarding his need for love. I feel that his desire to feel loved was practically crippling him. If only his love for her had been acknowledged and returned. It could have changed his life and the way he viewed his own life. If only.

rik75 wrote:

em81 wrote:

No, Dylan had no girlfriend. But he was in love with an ominous girl. He wrote her a letter, a cry for help, but never send it to her. Many people here think she was Marla Foust, a girl from CHS. But I need a proof to believe it. He wanted love so much, if you read his journal, you will see it. It´s really sad.

I have been reading his journal and i agree with you regarding his need for love. I feel that his desire to feel loved was practically crippling him. If only his love for her had been acknowledged and returned. It could have changed his life and the way he viewed his own life. If only.

Their journals show us that they were humans, not the monsters that our society wanted to see. Dylan was desperate. The knowledge of his pain and his desire for love touched me. Everybody who can feel love, deserve to be saved. I wished someone would help the boys with their problems, but Columbine happend. And my personal thought is the reason why it happend is our society, not only the boys.

It should - perhaps - be noted that Lisa Kreutz is the only one to have heard someone say those things. I'm not saying she didn't hear it, but perhaps she didn't hear it when Eric and Dylan first entered. Perhaps she heard it when they entered the second time, right before they committed suicide. Just a thought.

SandraSmit19 wrote:

It should - perhaps - be noted that Lisa Kreutz is the only one to have heard someone say those things. I'm not saying she didn't hear it, but perhaps she didn't hear it when Eric and Dylan first entered. Perhaps she heard it when they entered the second time, right before they committed suicide. Just a thought.

That's a good thought...

lasttrain wrote:

Dylan never said "I can't do this," but he was slow to participate.  Eric fired 47 outside the school.  Dylan 5.    

Dylan was throwing pipe-bombs outside while Eric did most of the shooting.

Also, Dylan's shotgun only held two shells. Slower to reload. I think Dylan had as much if not more enthusiasm for killing as Eric. He killed just as savagely and -- if anything -- seemed to take a greater pleasure in taunting people. He also fired multiple shots into his victims and laughed and yelled and was generally having a good time. He was also persistent about trying to get the propane bombs to explode. His journals regarding the attack show someone eager and hateful and wanting revenge. With or without Eric, Dylan wanted to kill...

Also, the Tech 9 kept jamming. Probably why Manes sold it to him in the 1st place. Manes called the Tech 9 a PoS.

Dylan's kill-count might have been equal if his shotgun loaded faster and his Tech 9 didn't jam.

There is not a shred of evidence before, during, or after the massacre that indicates Dylan was reluctant or regretful. There is actually more evidence that Eric had reluctance, but even in is case, not much reluctance. Eric said more compliments from people might stop him. he expressed remorse about leaving his friends. Dylan did not do so. Instead he fell into depression and an inability to feel anything at all, let alone remorse.  

I think people want Dylan to be the gentle, loving kid he once was -- but by the time of the attack, he'd become a full-on serial killer and he liked it.

gustopoet wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Dylan never said "I can't do this," but he was slow to participate.  Eric fired 47 outside the school.  Dylan 5.    

Dylan was throwing pipe-bombs outside while Eric did most of the shooting.

Also, Dylan's shotgun only held two shells. Slower to reload. I think Dylan had as much if not more enthusiasm for killing as Eric. He killed just as savagely and -- if anything -- seemed to take a greater pleasure in taunting people. He also fired multiple shots into his victims and laughed and yelled and was generally having a good time. He was also persistent about trying to get the propane bombs to explode. His journals regarding the attack show someone eager and hateful and wanting revenge. With or without Eric, Dylan wanted to kill...

Also, the Tech 9 kept jamming. Probably why Manes sold it to him in the 1st place. Manes called the Tech 9 a PoS.

Dylan's kill-count might have been equal if his shotgun loaded faster and his Tech 9 didn't jam.

There is not a shred of evidence before, during, or after the massacre that indicates Dylan was reluctant or regretful. There is actually more evidence that Eric had reluctance, but even in is case, not much reluctance. Eric said more compliments from people might stop him. he expressed remorse about leaving his friends. Dylan did not do so. Instead he fell into depression and an inability to feel anything at all, let alone remorse.  

I think people want Dylan to be the gentle, loving kid he once was -- but by the time of the attack, he'd become a full-on serial killer and he liked it.

These are very good points. Others have made good points as well about Eric saying it but, to me, it's not inconceivable that Dylan would ask Eric if he's still with him and if they're going to go ahead with it. Dylan was always checking on Eric, seemed to need more reassurance. That sounds like the kind of questions he could ask. He was also more vocal and ''emotional'' during the shooting. The other thing is that Eric was a lot less vocal, at least before the shooting in the library. Dylan may very well have wanted to make sure about him, even though Eric was firing more shots than him.

Of course, we'll probably never know for sure who said it to whom but, I picture Dylan saying it, right before they entered the library the first time, as the witness reported.

JayJay wrote:

Of course, we'll probably never know for sure who said it to whom but, I picture Dylan saying it, right before they entered the library the first time, as the witness reported.

I always assumed it was one or the other of them just checking to see if they were still in close physical proximity, rather than if they were still determined to follow through. After-all they'd already killed and wounded several people and let off numerous pipes and crickets.

I've always been a little less sure that either of them said "We're still going to do this, right?" But if either of them said it, I'd imagine it was Dylan because by the time they reached the library he was obviously ready to start killing. Eric was being less talkative.

Dylan was the one who said "Fine, I'll start shooting anyway..." before he killed Kyle. And on the 911 tape you can hear him very clearly yelling "Everybody get up now!" in the same voice as in the "car-wax" vid: "What the hell are you doing to my sister's bike!"

Dylan sounded highly motivated to me. And also acted like it.

rik75 wrote:

JayJay wrote:

I'm one of those who think if Eric and/or Dylan had a girlfriend and a lot of sex, they may have cancelled their plans, if it had happened at least a few months before or before the gun being bought.

Sexuality and aggressivity = there's a powerful combination. More studies should be done on this.

You have a point there. A good dose of love may have been the medication they both desperately needed.

That theory is overrated. They were sick kids, nothing would have stopped them from doing what they did on that day.

Ivan wrote:

rik75 wrote:

JayJay wrote:

I'm one of those who think if Eric and/or Dylan had a girlfriend and a lot of sex, they may have cancelled their plans, if it had happened at least a few months before or before the gun being bought.

Sexuality and aggressivity = there's a powerful combination. More studies should be done on this.

You have a point there. A good dose of love may have been the medication they both desperately needed.

That theory is overrated. They were sick kids, nothing would have stopped them from doing what they did on that day.

Hi Ivan ,i get you. During the few days before the massacre Dylan had his good friend Robyn Anderson and Eric started briefly spending time with Susan Dewitt. I realize that E & D were both committed to their 4/20/99 plans. What if E & D had found love ( before the massacre began to take shape ) Being in love may have provided them with a kind of therapy. Their girlfriends may have nurtured them and listened to them. Not only listened ,they may have helped E&D to take positive steps regarding their mental health. Having someone by their side who deeply loved and cared about them may have shaped their mindsets differently. We all have had bad times in our lives , but its the ones that love us dearly that stay by our sides through " better or worse ." I do not believe that Eric or Dylan ever felt that way. Before those evil seeds of murder were planted in E&D's minds they really needed help and if that would have come in the form of a girlfriend who cherished them ,listened to them and loved them ,who knows? The love of a woman , mental health counselling and frequent assessments. It may have changed Eric & Dylan and gave then a solid foundation for the future. Just a layman's opinion.

Zach got a girlfriend and got wiser. Of course, we don't know that it was what made him stop going on rebel missions. It's possible that time invested in a relationship outside of their friendship would have made them too busy to carry out preparations for a massacre and would help them ''blow off steam'' in another manner. If one of them had gotten a girlfriend, maybe they would have grown slightly apart, the way Zach and Dylan did.

However, as far as teenage romances go, I doubt a teenage girl really is that nurturing to the point of healing a depression with homicidal thoughts in her boyfriend...they would still need professional help.

JayJay wrote:

Zach got a girlfriend and got wiser. Of course, we don't know that it was what made him stop going on rebel missions. It's possible that time invested in a relationship outside of their friendship would have made them too busy to carry out preparations for a massacre and would help them ''blow off steam'' in another manner. If one of them had gotten a girlfriend, maybe they would have grown slightly apart, the way Zach and Dylan did.

However, as far as teenage romances go, I doubt a teenage girl really is that nurturing to the point of healing a depression with homicidal thoughts in her boyfriend...they would still need professional help.

Hi JayJay ,good point. If E&D had found girlfriends ( before the seeds of NBK were planted in their sick minds ) maybe they would have drifted apart. True love and guidance and lots of sex may have been beneficial for them. Counselling and regular mental health assessments may have been good for them too.