Deliberate Signs Left or Mishaps?

I have read on here way back that there was the possibility of Eric wanting to get caught nearing NBK, and that would be through the many signs he had left behind, the foreshadowing he liked to do and all that. I agree with this thought each time I see but now that I think of it I haven't seen it discussed and let alone in detail. I do want to know why some of us think he wanted to get caught. However the other thing is, were they just mishaps? Meaning Eric was careless and he let some of his actions prior to NBK spill out in the open but even that happening left no one disturbed enough to report anything. These are the couple of things I can think of in my mind now. If anyone would kindly add on or have the reports at hand please feel free to share:

- The "clue" sign he left on the poster on his wall
- Leaving the house number to the gun clerk which resulted to his father answering the phone about the clips Eric ordered being ready
- Is it my imagination cause I have read something on here about Eric using the school printer/scanner to scan a bunch of papers? notes? and that seemed to be a really weird and telling to do and we made a fuss about why he didn't get caught then? Can someone help?
- Bomb-making materials in his house
- Any possible signs of planning or things they said to a couple of their peers
- The final Nixon tape which Eric left on the table in his house - did he hope a family member would listen to it in time?

I know I have read more somewhere, I don't know where. So I hope my memory may be refreshed again.

Very good idea!

You might have read about this typical suicidal behaviour: it is rather common that many suicidal/homicidal persons give very delicate, very deliberate signs, foreshadowing what they are planning to do. Sometimes it is nearly unrecognizeable, but at other times, it is pretty clear. Many people who have such plans are ambivalent, and they have this attitude: "if it is just me, so I don't really care and I shall do the deed. But if anyone else gives a damn about it, I am willing to change my intentions" - this message is what they are trying to communicate, in a conscious or not so conscious way. I could mention many examples, if you are interested! I am interested if you have some examples too

So I agree Eric was probably in this ambivalent state of mind. Maybe, secretly he had hopes about his crazy things and plans being discovered before it would have been too late?

Anyway, now it is my memory that needs some refreshing: what were the contents of this final Nixon tape? Is it the same as the very last basement tape?

The only thing ever released about the Nixon tape by Jeffco is the well-known transcript where Eric says

"In less than nine hours now, people will die because of me, it willl be a day that will be remembered forever."

This cassette tape was done solo by Eric and God only knows what else he said on that tape.

Moonshadow wrote:

Many people who have such plans are ambivalent, and they have this attitude: "if it is just me, so I don't really care and I shall do the deed. But if anyone else gives a damn about it, I am willing to change my intentions" - this message is what they are trying to communicate, in a conscious or not so conscious way.

Wow this is extremely interesting yet also incredibly sad!

I've wondered about it this too.  In the end, I think it's another example of Eric's contradictory nature.  Also, they planned the massacre for at least a year and it's difficult to maintain that level of pure rage for such a long period.  

On a purely intellectual level, Eric seemed smart (and sneaky) enough that he could have hidden everything flawlessly.  I think it's also possible that part of him got a thrill from almost getting caught (for example, the phone call from the gun shop).  Knowing that they were getting away with all their planning under everyone’s noses probably boosted his ego.  Then again, he was only human and people make dumb mistakes all the time, even the smart ones  There’s also the fame angle - he knew that their writings/videos would be analyzed and he wanted to leave enough material behind to ‘tell his own story’, so to speak.

Emotionally, he had the capacity to be compassionate toward those he cared about, like his parents, and he clearly understood some of the impact his crime would have on them.  I’m sure that his enthusiasm for the crime wavered over time.  I can imagine that there were times when he wanted ‘out’ and would have been relieved to be caught, even if there were personal or legal consequences.  He certainly had moments of introspection - I mean, he could have taped over the portion of the Basement Tapes where he cried in his car, but he didn’t.  But at the end of the day, he wasn’t forced or coerced into committing the massacre - whatever doubts he had were temporary.  He wanted to kill people and was willing to die while doing it.

Anyway, just my two cents.

Wait, so some of us think he wanted to get caught because of the thrill of it and it made him feel liberated than the fact he wanted to get out of NBK?

Personally, I think his feelings about NBK were probably complicated (Dylan’s too).  At different times, I think he felt pride at his deceptions and possibly a desire to back out of the plan.  A year is a long time and Eric seems to have been intelligent and introspective enough that he probably had (at the very least) moments of doubt.  We know that he felt some degree of guilt about the trouble his actions were going to cause his parents.  Of course, he went through with the plan and (realistically) could have backed out at any point.  Ultimately, I don’t think he really wanted to be caught, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were moments where the idea appealed to him.

JayHawk80 wrote:

At different times, I think he felt pride at his deceptions and possibly a desire to back out of the plan. A year is a long time and Eric seems to have been intelligent and introspective enough that he probably had (at the very least) moments of doubt. We know that he felt some degree of guilt about the trouble his actions were going to cause his parents. Of course, he went through with the plan and (realistically) could have backed out at any point. Ultimately, I don’t think he really wanted to be caught, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were moments where the idea appealed to him.

Verrrrrryyyyy interesting.

I still want more insights on the things I pointed out so we could discuss it, especially the printing thing which I hope isn't my imagination.

I think most of those instances were honestly just sloppiness. They may have spent a ton of time and effort working out their plan, but if you really think about how it was all carried out, it wasn't exactly air tight. I think they were just kids and as clever as they thought they were, they really didn't know what they were doing. That just makes it all the more insane that nobody did catch them in time.

As far as the "clue", I think that was Eric really taking pleasure in shoving it in everyone's faces. Like "Ha! I did this right under your noses!"

pbc wrote:

I think most of those instances were honestly just sloppiness. They may have spent a ton of time and effort working out their plan, but if you really think about how it was all carried out, it wasn't exactly air tight. I think they were just kids and as clever as they thought they were, they really didn't know what they were doing. That just makes it all the more insane that nobody did catch them in time.

I think I probably agree with this. Eric's bomb didn't go off and I don't think that's because he didn't want it to go off. They were teenagers after all.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

I still want more insights on the things I pointed out so we could discuss it, especially the printing thing which I hope isn't my imagination.

I don't know about printing but I seem to remember reading that within the last couple of days before the massacre, Eric had uploaded some of the plans from his journal to the school's server. I don't think I ever saw the source of this information but if I'm not also imagining it, I'm sure someone else has it.

sscc wrote:

I don't know about printing but I seem to remember reading that within the last couple of days before the massacre, Eric had uploaded some of the plans from his journal to the school's server. I don't think I ever saw the source of this information but if I'm not also imagining it, I'm sure someone else has it.

Yes yes yes that's the one I'm thinking of! Someone help us please!

sscc wrote:

I think I probably agree with this. Eric's bomb didn't go off and I don't think that's because he didn't want it to go off. They were teenagers after all.

Are you saying he might've made the bombs a flop on purpose?

pbc wrote:

I think most of those instances were honestly just sloppiness. They may have spent a ton of time and effort working out their plan, but if you really think about how it was all carried out, it wasn't exactly air tight. I think they were just kids and as clever as they thought they were, they really didn't know what they were doing. That just makes it all the more insane that nobody did catch them in time.

Sloppiness is kinda close to mishaps, carelessness, which yes I agree it's crazy that not one caught it in time or at the least put it all together. Hell maybe it had been out in the open many a time and it was the people around them who just brushed it off though I can't blame them, one can't guess that the boys would be shooting up and blowing up a school.

I'm kinda leaning to the theory that there had to be one time where Eric purposely let something slip to as many of you guys have said, test the waters abit and see if someone would jump in and ask him what the hell is up. Considering how nothing happened, he gave up on his reality and focused on making NBK happen.

For the computer servers, yes Eric did upload a ton of stuff to the school's server before NBK. You can find those things labeled as such in the Columbine Docs. Near the end if memory serves....if I get time I can look for page numbers later. Some say he uploaded these the day before NBK but no real proof I have seen of when he actually did it.

As far as the other points. I am sort of in the middle. There are times I feel like either Eric and Dylan were just plain sloppy and just missed getting caught, times where I feel like they were getting off from almost getting caught, or times when I feel like Eric really did want to get caught.

One thing that stands out in my mind is diversion and his counseling. Many think that Eric lied on his paperwork but I think he was truthful. He admitted to crying, feeling homicidal, suicidal, and confused. Why? I think he did want help. I think he did want to stop feeling this way. Help was pretty much denied and they forced medication and made things worse.

They dropped hints to friends all the time. Now could they have been testing waters for another partner in crime? I don't know but could they also have been trying to find someone who would "tell on them"? Perhaps....only Eric and Dylan know that answer

Lizpuff wrote:

For the computer servers, yes Eric did upload a ton of stuff to the school's server before NBK. You can find those things labeled as such in the Columbine Docs. Near the end if memory serves....if I get time I can look for page numbers later. Some say he uploaded these the day before NBK but no real proof I have seen of when he actually did it.

Columbine Docs? Like a zip file? Mmm watcha mean babygirl

Lizpuff wrote:

There are times I feel like either Eric and Dylan were just plain sloppy and just missed getting caught, times where I feel like they were getting off from almost getting caught, or times when I feel like Eric really did want to get caught.

Haha wow that's quite a doozy to breakdown, but it's possible it's a mix of those.
Sloppyness, and then getting off from all the signs left that people just overlook and maybe for Eric a small chance of hoping he got caught.

I'm so focused on him wanting to get caught cause I can't help but think about him wanting to be saved. Because it would be so interesting if he didn't wanna go through with it nearing 4/20 due to fear or regret or something. It's so fascinating to see a future murderer have a tinge of fear within him to prove that he was sane, that he had feelings.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

For the computer servers, yes Eric did upload a ton of stuff to the school's server before NBK. You can find those things labeled as such in the Columbine Docs. Near the end if memory serves....if I get time I can look for page numbers later. Some say he uploaded these the day before NBK but no real proof I have seen of when he actually did it.

Columbine Docs? Like a zip file? Mmm watcha mean babygirl

Lizpuff wrote:

There are times I feel like either Eric and Dylan were just plain sloppy and just missed getting caught, times where I feel like they were getting off from almost getting caught, or times when I feel like Eric really did want to get caught.

Haha wow that's quite a doozy to breakdown, but it's possible it's a mix of those.
Sloppyness, and then getting off from all the signs left that people just overlook and maybe for Eric a small chance of hoping he got caught.

I'm so focused on him wanting to get caught cause I can't help but think about him wanting to be saved. Because it would be so interesting if he didn't wanna go through with it nearing 4/20 due to fear or regret or something. It's so fascinating to see a future murderer have a tinge of fear within him to prove that he was sane, that he had feelings.

I was referring to the Columbine Doc section of the 11k. The last section that is numbered 25k and up. That section is all of Eric and Dylan's writings. Schoolwork, the survey, yearbook signings, journals etc. The things Eric uploaded to the schools server is in there iirc.

Lizpuff wrote:

I was referring to the Columbine Doc section of the 11k. The last section that is numbered 25k and up. That section is all of Eric and Dylan's writings. Schoolwork, the survey, yearbook signings, journals etc. The things Eric uploaded to the schools server is in there iirc.

I can no longer locate one at the moment as evan long's links are now dead.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

pbc wrote:

I think most of those instances were honestly just sloppiness. They may have spent a ton of time and effort working out their plan, but if you really think about how it was all carried out, it wasn't exactly air tight. I think they were just kids and as clever as they thought they were, they really didn't know what they were doing. That just makes it all the more insane that nobody did catch them in time.

Sloppiness is kinda close to mishaps, carelessness, which yes I agree it's crazy that not one caught it in time or at the least put it all together. Hell maybe it had been out in the open many a time and it was the people around them who just brushed it off though I can't blame them, one can't guess that the boys would be shooting up and blowing up a school.

I also think Eric had over inflated ego complex. That probably caused his bombs to fail. Who would expect an inexperienced teenage boy who knows nothing about explosives and pyrotechnics to make stuff go boom.

I just use acolumbinesite.com

You can also find it on Langman's site
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Somewhat valid, though the inexperience on the making of the bombs differ from being sloppy with possibly leaving stuff out that would show they were up to no good, like when a neighbour or whoever overheard sounds of breaking glass coming from Eric's garage, noticing that Dylan kept coming over, etc.

Kay I'm on it [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Kay I'm on it [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I started looking but I am supposed to be "working" so I had to stop lol

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Somewhat valid, though the inexperience on the making of the bombs differ from being sloppy with possibly leaving stuff out that would show they were up to no good, like when a neighbour or whoever overheard sounds of breaking glass coming from Eric's garage, noticing that Dylan kept coming over, etc.

Could it have been possible for Sue to have caught Dylan on the morning of the shooting? If my son was up so early and leaving in such a big haste I would be very suspicious. She really should have just tackled him to the ground.

aquillina wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Somewhat valid, though the inexperience on the making of the bombs differ from being sloppy with possibly leaving stuff out that would show they were up to no good, like when a neighbour or whoever overheard sounds of breaking glass coming from Eric's garage, noticing that Dylan kept coming over, etc.

Could it have been possible for Sue to have caught Dylan on the morning of the shooting? If my son was up so early and leaving in such a big haste I would be very suspicious. She really should have just tackled him to the ground.

The Klebolds did want to talk to Dylan and I think Sue replays that morning over and over in her head thinking what she should or could have done. Hindsight being what it is though. She thought she could speak to him that night.

aquillina wrote:

Could it have been possible for Sue to have caught Dylan on the morning of the shooting? If my son was up so early and leaving in such a big haste I would be very suspicious. She really should have just tackled him to the ground.

Lol right? She was right there. Had she had been extra strict and annoying that one day, caught up with him and be like Hey! Wait up!, maybe she could have spoken to him. Pry him for abit.

Another interesting scenario I've been pondering for a long time. Remember when Chris Morris suspected Eric being the shooter? What if he was allowed access into the school to confront Eric? In fact if any of their family or friends, like Nate, Devon, or even Sue tried to confront them what could have possibly happened? I know there was a topic somewhere already on here but I can't find it anymore.

aquillina wrote:

Another interesting scenario I've been pondering for a long time. Remember when Chris Morris suspected Eric being the shooter? What if he was allowed access into the school to confront Eric? In fact if any of their family or friends, like Nate, Devon, or even Sue tried to confront them what could have possibly happened? I know there was a topic somewhere already on here but I can't find it anymore.

I am pretty sure by the time Chris figured things out Eric was gone. I think if he had confronted Eric right away like when they were still outside shooting, Eric might have taken a shot at him. I don't think there would have been any room for conversation or begging him to stop.

Question. How do I locate in the documents about the printing situation? Am I suppose to look for a report talking about it or do I find the stuff he scanned- sorry I'm confused. Help me [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] bahahaha....I'm in the reports already I just don't know what to look for

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Question. How do I locate in the documents about the printing situation? Am I suppose to look for a report talking about it or do I find the stuff he scanned- sorry I'm confused. Help me [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] bahahaha....I'm in the reports already I just don't know what to look for

in the columbine docs the ones I know of have this label:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

That is for example 886 of the docs. I may be incorrect so feel free to correct me anyone but I believe these came off the school server directly

Here you go:

026797-026805 - Harris Files School Server - Book 1-9 uploaded 4/19/99 from 8:33am-8:45am

026806-026814 - Harris Files School Server - Tier 1-7 uploaded 4/19/99 from 8:09am-8:22am

Thank you guys SO MUCH and beyond.

sororityalpha wrote:

Here you go:

026797-026805 - Harris Files School Server - Book 1-9 uploaded 4/19/99 from 8:33am-8:45am

026806-026814 - Harris Files School Server - Tier 1-7 uploaded 4/19/99 from 8:09am-8:22am

You are the best for page numbers!

So thanks to the help of the lovely people on here, looking at the pages Eric had scanned through the school server is a combination of drawings which represent carnage, stick figures in the supposed gear the boys would be in, plain RANDOM male stick figures, guns+explosions, and then also I think he wrote bomb-making related stuff, and then there were also sketches of diagrams of I think maybe the school.

Then there's a couple of pages that I just don't get but maybe some of you who have seen it do.

So what's the deal here? Do we know when these pages were found and by who? And did he do it on purpose? One day before NBK, what did he plan to say if he were confronted about it before 4/20? Was it his last hurrah, like a last fuck you, these represent 4/20 straight up and I know no one's gonna ask me about this?

ultraviolencelv wrote:

So thanks to the help of the lovely people on here, looking at the pages Eric had scanned through the school server is a combination of drawings which represent carnage, stick figures in the supposed gear the boys would be in, plain RANDOM male stick figures, guns+explosions, and then also I think he wrote bomb-making related stuff, and then there were also sketches of diagrams of I think maybe the school.

Then there's a couple of pages that I just don't get but maybe some of you who have seen it do.

So what's the deal here? Do we know when these pages were found and by who? And did he do it on purpose? One day before NBK, what did he plan to say if he were confronted about it before 4/20? Was it his last hurrah, like a last fuck you, these represent 4/20 straight up and I know no one's gonna ask me about this?

Well Eric was always on the school's computers so no one would really question him using them. And I guess I don't know what capacity everyone used those computers. Did teachers check the servers from time to time to see what was there? Somehow I lean toward not. I think Eric just knew that no one would be looking at the server between the 19 and the 20.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], it might be true: teachers and school staff in general had less interest and competance about the school servers than Eric did. Very typical.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I like your "last fuck you" idea!

So I guess Eric knew it would not be seen immediately anyway so he did it as a serves you right sort of gesture once the massacre happened. I'm thinking hypothetically say he did it with the intention if someone asked him about it in time, what the hell would he have said, did he want attention from doing that.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

So I guess Eric knew it would not be seen immediately anyway so he did it as a serves you right sort of gesture once the massacre happened. I'm thinking hypothetically say he did it with the intention if someone asked him about it in time, what the hell would he have said, did he want attention from doing that.

One thing I think about that is along the same lines...So during video class on the 19 Eric is sitting on the floor writing in a notebook. Nick R asks him what he is writing and he mentions plans for tomorrow. Then a totally off the cuff joke about how if they school is gone tomorrow it will be because of Eric....Like wow. foreshadowing without knowing it! No one knew if Eric heard that comment and if he did he didn't respond but I wonder how it made him feel that is if he did hear it. Knowing it was true and that he would be blowing them up tomorrow.

A lot of the stuff Eric put on the servers out of the context that it was written in was benign. Some things were very violent but I think he could have talked his way out of it if he was caught

My thing is if say he wanted to get caught and he did, does he want to lie about it or admit it? That's my initial wonder. Would he want to be like, yes, I am actually planning a murder and suicide. you caught me, save me - kind of thing. If he was gonna lie about it then the literal foreshadow is on the same level where it would be redundant cause no one took it seriously.

Lizpuff wrote:

So during video class on the 19 Eric is sitting on the floor writing in a notebook. Nick R asks him what he is writing and he mentions plans for tomorrow.

This exact moment was re-enacted in the movie Elephant, just a short trivia lol!

ultraviolencelv wrote:

My thing is if say he wanted to get caught and he did, does he want to lie about it or admit it? That's my initial wonder. Would he want to be like, yes, I am actually planning a murder and suicide. you caught me, save me - kind of thing. If he was gonna lie about it then the literal foreshadow is on the same level where it would be redundant cause no one took it seriously.

I am just really unsure. I feel in a way like he would lie his way out of it. But on the other hand I do feel like he wanted to be caught. It is an interesting thing to think about Def if Dylan was around he would try to weasel out of it because he would never want Dylan to know if he did want out of it. If he even did.

If we go with the idea that Eric did want out of it, I would think if the right person, lets say for example someone finds out and calls his parents to the school and they confront him in a little room with no out, I think he would confess perhaps.

Then there is a part of me that goes no way....he would lie his ass off.

I am conflicted

Lizpuff wrote:

I am just really unsure. I feel in a way like he would lie his way out of it. But on the other hand I do feel like he wanted to be caught. It is an interesting thing to think about Def if Dylan was around he would try to weasel out of it because he would never want Dylan to know if he did want out of it. If he even did.

If we go with the idea that Eric did want out of it, I would think if the right person, lets say for example someone finds out and calls his parents to the school and they confront him in a little room with no out, I think he would confess perhaps.

Then there is a part of me that goes no way....he would lie his ass off.

I am conflicted

Same. and this is why Columbine is interesting and always fresh on our minds! Eric, I can't seem to figure you out!

And ditto on the point that he would weasel out of it if Dylan was there cause if we remember Eric hated letting people down and I don't think he could do that to Dylan on the spot.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

And ditto on the point that he would weasel out of it if Dylan was there cause if we remember Eric hated letting people down and I don't think he could do that to Dylan on the spot.

I feel like neither wanted to let the other one down. I really don't think Dylan had any second thoughts or ever truly wanted out. So mostly I just feel like if anyone wanted out it was Eric

Okay what if Eric did get caught? Would Dylan have been dead already? I remember from a late entry in Dylan's journal that he tried reaching out to a particular girl just one last time. Probably a few weeks before the shooting. Could that have been a sign that Dylan might have second thoughts? Say that the girl had responded to his call would that have changed anything.

aquillina wrote:

Okay what if Eric did get caught? Would Dylan have been dead already? I remember from a late entry in Dylan's journal that he tried reaching out to a particular girl just one last time. Probably a few weeks before the shooting. Could that have been a sign that Dylan might have second thoughts? Say that the girl had responded to his call would that have changed anything.

I don't even know if the girl thing is possible because apparently this "girl" barely knew Dylan so it seemed like he was talking to a fantasy-idk how to explain this properly. IDK if HE would back out too, maybe they both wanted to back out but kept it to themselves, hoping something would happen to stop their plan so they wouldn't disappoint one another.
If Eric got caught, even one day before 4/20, and he ADMITTED to planning a massacre, then he had a good excuse and won't have to worry about Dylan. And why or when would Dylan be dead?

I wouldn't be surprised if end of the day they both got selfish and thought of themselves but couldn't garner the courage to tell it to one another so as to not tarnish their suicide-pact.

aquillina wrote:

Okay what if Eric did get caught? Would Dylan have been dead already? I remember from a late entry in Dylan's journal that he tried reaching out to a particular girl just one last time. Probably a few weeks before the shooting. Could that have been a sign that Dylan might have second thoughts? Say that the girl had responded to his call would that have changed anything.

I don't know that Dylan had enough oomph in him to commit suicide on his own at that point in time. He needed the push. He was talking suicide for years but always came back. He did try to treat the depression on his own prior. I think without NBK he would have held on wallowing in his self pity. Perhaps if he did go to college he would have attempted suicide there.

We also do not know who the girl was at all. Dylan said he tried to call her but who knows if he actually did. He never gave her the notes as far as we all know either. I think she would have eventually let him down. Most likely because he would have done nothing to make himself known to her.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

And why or when would Dylan be dead?

Let me rephrase that. Would Dylan have been dead anyways even if Eric was caught?