9/11 or Columbine?

I really don't know where to post this, so I guess here, maybe? Anyways, you all know my profession and a lot of people know I love research into crimes and tragedies.

So, I'm sure a lot of people are aware of the "jumpers" as they were called who either jumped or fell from the World Trade Centers. I've heard this ad nauseum that these people died of a heart attack before hitting the street. That would be a great way to put a bow on it and move on. The reality is, these people reached speeds of around 150 mph and they were horrifically conscious and aware of what the outcome would be. Fortunately, their deaths were instantaneous. But I linger over the horror of what must have been so unbearable that would cause these people to weigh their options and choose that route.

And I think of the people in the hijacked planes. What terror, what horror knowing you are going to die so violently and with the world watching. It takes me breath away.

As terrorizing and awful as Columbine is, I have always said I would rather take a gunshot to the head any day over any other violent death. I'd ideally like to die in my sleep.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not comparing a terrorist attack to a school shooting, at all. That's opposite ends of the spectrum.

I have never seen the film made about the jumpers. It sounds kind of wrong to call them that...I lack better terms. However I have seen many documentaries about 9/11. One of the things that hit me the hardest are the shots of people poking out of the windows of the buildings. Knowing there is no safe way down. They will either die from the fire and smoke or from jumping out the window. I just cannot imagine. You cannot see any faces, and not many were identified but there is just I don't know what to call it....some kind of connection to be made with these people.

Those holding hands as they fall hurt me as well. I cannot get over the fear they must have felt

Unrelated, but the one that always gets me is that picture taken of that windmill that caught on fire and killed two engineers, their final moment embracing each other.

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The North Tower was the most devastating. The impact zone for the plane that hit the North Tower was floors 93 - 99. The problem was that all the stairwells and elevators were destroyed which meant that every single person on the 93rd floor and above was going to die. They had absolutely no way out and not a single one of the 1,400 people above the 93rd floor survived. Over half of the people who died on 9/11 were from the North Tower.

When the plane hit, 10 thousand gallons of jet fuel exploded into the building. So all the rooms were filling up with smoke really fast. Once these people realized there was no way out they had 2 choices. They could either stay in the building and burn up and most likely choke to death from the smoke or they could jump out the window. That literally was the only choices they had. 200 of them jumped. I like to think they didn't feel anything but I'm sure they did. Some of them were even holding hands. I don't think they were unconscious.

With the South Tower, even though the impact zone was lower (77th - 85th floors), some of the people above the impact zone were able to escape. Around 615 above the impact zone died in the South Tower.

If I had to pick, I guess it would be Columbine.

One of my favorite courses was on the Forensics of 9/11 and I learned so much that is horrifying and heartbreaking. I'm glad I wasn't in the field, or else I would have likely been there working the deaths. The photos of the people who "jumped", and yes I hate that word, are ghastly. They likely felt nothing on impact but it's those moments of free falling that haunt me. What were they thinking, feeling, etc. it's awful and a subject that gets kinda brushed under the rug.

I don't even know where to start regarding 9/11. Infact, don't even get me started.

Looking up 9/11 is always like the first time and I breakdown like as if I never did before. Every aspect of it is terrifying and heartbreaking.

The last phone calls made by the victims who knew they're gonna die? That breaks my heart.

The heroes who put others first and didn't make it out in time for themselves? It hurts so much.

The survivors who went and help other survivors who gave up during the escape but they stayed with them and FORCED them to get their butts up to leave, thankfully for that they managed to come out alive.

Literally every single thing about 9/11 is sensational.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 9/11 has always haunted me. I cry on the anniversaries when they show documentaries. I think of the loved ones left behind, and what every day has to be like. I simply can't imagine.

The deaths of all involved are horrific. I won't get into specifics, but it's some of the worst ways to die.

I want to visit the 9/11 memorial, but I don't know if I could. It's scared, hallowed ground and I'm sure I would be an inconsolable moron just sobbing.

From what I've heard on podcasts and through videos, the memorial isn't really as morose or scary to visit, it's pretty educational and you go there to learn and look at actual wreckage, and the most popular as brought up above the popular "Jumper Room" specially for the jumpers that day. It looks like a centre really.

but when you see the collage of the people who died you might cry almost immediately.

My son went to NY for his senior trip and brought back a ton of pictures. As he talked about it you could hear how moving it was for him to be there. Keep in mind that he has no recollection of the actual event as he was just a little guy when it happened.

For me U2's performance of Where the Streets Have No Name at the Superbowl will always stick with me. A bunch of guys watching the game, drinking beer and being guys. We just sat there in silence watching those names scroll by on those banners. They just kept coming and coming when my buddy Roger uttered "My God, all those people" not a dry eye in the room. Song gets me to this day.

When you read about the tiny, minuscule amounts of the dead that were identified, it's really sobering. I don't have the exact numbers, but in Shanksville, I *think* only 8% of human remains were actually found. That takes me back to the families and how little they had of their loved ones.

Interesting tidbit, when the hijackers met in Vegas in August 2001, my husband and I were there at the same time. They stayed in dumps, but we stayed in the Bellagio.

9/11 is by far the more overall impactful.
But for me personally it'd have to be Columbine. It taught me how seemingly normal people can have a dark side and can let that dark side consume then.

Tomb wrote:

When you read about the tiny, minuscule amounts of the dead that were identified, it's really sobering. I don't have the exact numbers, but in Shanksville, I *think* only 8% of human remains were actually found. That takes me back to the families and how little they had of their loved ones.

Interesting tidbit, when the hijackers met in Vegas in August 2001, my husband and I were there at the same time. They stayed in dumps, but we stayed in the Bellagio.

I worked in death claims for an insurance center at the time. I processed a few death claims for victims of 9/11. I was told to process the claims immediately and not wait for a certified death certificate as it was not known if and when the death certificates would be released. I never heard if the death certificates were ever released.That was so sad, can't imagine the panic and terror they experienced. And the devastated families. Brings a tear to my eye just thinking about it.

I look at the sheer number of participants in 9/11 and it astounds me the amount of propel in on it, knew of it and happily financed it. That's a level of sophistication you don't see in mass shootings. It really is mind boggling to me.

Tomb wrote:

I look at the sheer number of participants in 9/11 and it astounds me the amount of propel in on it, knew of it and happily financed it. That's a level of sophistication you don't see in mass shootings. It really is mind boggling to me.

I would say the amount of planning in a mass shooting is pretty crazy.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Sure there's plenty of planning in all these events. But when you have the multitudes of people directly involved in 9/11 for YEARS, with most everything worked out to a tee, you're really dealing with a sort of organized crime. The faith, the trust, the planning, the flight lessons, the numerous cross country air travel on similar flight paths, etc. it requires a huge level of patience, trust and knowledge that is seldom seen in mass shootings.

I fear I've ventured beyond the original topic, so I apologize.

killintime wrote:

My son went to NY for his senior trip and brought back a ton of pictures. As he talked about it you could hear how moving it was for him to be there. Keep in mind that he has no recollection of the actual event as he was just a little guy when it happened.

For me U2's performance of Where the Streets Have No Name at the Superbowl will always stick with me. A bunch of guys watching the game, drinking beer and being guys. We just sat there in silence watching those names scroll by on those banners. They just kept coming and coming when my buddy Roger uttered "My God, all those people" not a dry eye in the room. Song gets me to this day.

Thanks for sharing that video. I've never seen it before. All the names and then the banner falling down like the twin towers was sad, for sure.

killintime wrote:

My son went to NY for his senior trip and brought back a ton of pictures. As he talked about it you could hear how moving it was for him to be there. Keep in mind that he has no recollection of the actual event as he was just a little guy when it happened.

For me U2's performance of Where the Streets Have No Name at the Superbowl will always stick with me. A bunch of guys watching the game, drinking beer and being guys. We just sat there in silence watching those names scroll by on those banners. They just kept coming and coming when my buddy Roger uttered "My God, all those people" not a dry eye in the room. Song gets me to this day.

Beautiful and touching. It makes you realize not all humanity is heartless.

It does not matter to me.

Knowing you are going to die is bad enough regardless of how it is going to happen.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Having been through this nightmare, I'd give everything for a quick and spectacular end. Nothing sucks harder than to realize that neither your brain or body is no longer what it once was. Yet I wake up every day to more indignities, seemingly small, until they're not.

I would rather sit there and possibly get a gunshot through me or not.

The thing about 9/11 if you have not died from the plane crash through and am still alive, you have a decision between burning to death or jumping off the building - also if you are taking the stairs to the 1st floor and being too late reaching, collapsing with the tower. In a way for 9/11 I have a conscious decision on how to die. Idk how to handle that.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] thank you for posting this! These are probably my two most researched crimes out of them all! Since you have a lot of knowledge on the subject of how people died that day, so I have a question for you. I mean no disrespect to the victims that tragic day, but what happens to a persons body jumping from that height at the speed you meantioned above? I can't bare watch any videos where people are jumping that day, it terrifies me. However I've always been curious, call it sick...but I want to know. I would LOVE to have your profession :-)

Oh and by the way, I find your posts very informative and helpful, so thank you!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] thank you for your kind words. I'm sure a lot of people have held onto the belief that the people jumping lost consciousness before they hit the ground. Unfortunately, this is not true. They may have been in shock, but they were wide awake for the most part. These people reached terminal velocity and, on average, it took 10 seconds (+/-, depending on their jump position) to hit the ground.

In layman's terms, upon impact, they were obliterated. Assorted body parts were scattered about, far from the body of which ther belonged; hands, fingers, legs, feet. They would basically splatter.

Of course, they died quickly and painlessly.

Tomb wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] thank you for your kind words. I'm sure a lot of people have held onto the belief that the people jumping lost consciousness before they hit the ground. Unfortunately, this is not true. They may have been in shock, but they were wide awake for the most part. These people reached terminal velocity and, on average, it took 10 seconds (+/-, depending on their jump position) to hit the ground.

In layman's terms, upon impact, they were obliterated. Assorted body parts were scattered about, far from the body of which the belonged; hands, fingers, legs, feet. They would basically splatter.

Of course, they died quickly and painlessly.

Blimey. I suppose it's one thing for people who choose to end their life this way by choice of not wanting to live anymore. When they are pretty much forced into it like they were in this case, it's terrifying.

It is terrifying. I don't know that we will ever understand the extreme terror, the intense torture those people endured. Horrific burns, the toxic fumes, the carnage.When jumping out of a building that high is the lesser of two evils?...I'm sure it was way worse that any of us could comprehend.

Thank you [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]...I appreciate your professional opinion and explaination. For some reason those jumpers stand out on my mind more than other victims. I hope that doesn't come off as cold but to go through something that horrific and know you're going to die either way, they chose to jump....wow....I can't even begin to comprehend what must've been going through their mind. The other people that break my heart are the people trapped in the building and calling 911, one person I believe stated on her call "I'm going to die aren't I?" Absolutely heart wrenching. 9/11 is as much of a mystery to me as Columbine.

9/11, as well as Columbine, left a lasting impression on the world.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] you're very welcome! Imagine the sheer horror and misery that would make someone decide that jumping is preferable to bearing witness to the horror inside the towers. Either die slowly an extremely painful death or a 10 second, +/-, jump which seems to be a logical,viable alternative. It's still breathtaking to me.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I consider those people brave. Many have derided them as cowards. My favorite poem, as all my friends will tell you is Invictuaby William Ernest Henley and I think it applies here, particularly the last verse:

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.

I was more shocked (like the rest of the world) by 9/11 for quite a while after it happened, but it didn't have a lasting affect of me the way columbine did for some reason.

Tomb wrote:

When you read about the tiny, minuscule amounts of the dead that were identified, it's really sobering. I don't have the exact numbers, but in Shanksville, I *think* only 8% of human remains were actually found. That takes me back to the families and how little they had of their loved ones.

Interesting tidbit, when the hijackers met in Vegas in August 2001, my husband and I were there at the same time. They stayed in dumps, but we stayed in the Bellagio.

I was in New York over the Fourth of July in 2001. (I went with my grandmother - it was the summer between my sophomore and junior years of high school.)

On our last day there, I wanted to visit the World Trade Center, but my grandmother was tired. "We'll see it next year," she said.

The next year, we saw Ground Zero.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wow, how breathtaking. Have you been to the memorial?

Tomb wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wow, how breathtaking. Have you been to the memorial?

No, not yet. I haven't been able to travel for a long time - when I have the money, I don't have the time, and when I have the time, I don't have the money. The next time I get to take a trip, I will probably go to New York.

I've never been to Denver. I live in Florida, so most of my travel has been in the East. I've been to New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Providence, and D.C., but the only western city I've visited is Reno.

United 93 that crashed in Shanksville is, to me anyway, the most haunting. Passengers on the other planes probably knew they were hijacked, but, at that time anyway, most hijackers returned to an airport to make their demands.

Because of United 93's later departure, the passengers were made aware of what had happened to the World Trade Centers and the Pentagon, albeit too late. I think they knew they were going to die, but they would go down fighting. The sheer terror of that situation is incomprehensible.

LPorter101 wrote:

Tomb wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wow, how breathtaking. Have you been to the memorial?

No, not yet. I haven't been able to travel for a long time - when I have the money, I don't have the time, and when I have the time, I don't have the money. The next time I get to take a trip, I will probably go to New York.

I've never been to Denver. I live in Florida, so most of my travel has been in the East. I've been to New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Providence, and D.C., but the only western city I've visited is Reno.

Hey Tomb sorry for reaching you on here, I could not pm you since I need to exceed a post limit and I haven't reached that as of yet. I'm into criminal profiling and looking at cases but not one alas. Currently studying Human Resources, in my 3rd year

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] No worries! Your username caught my eye and I enjoy the art of criminal profiling. I find it intriguing and interesting. I adore Jim Clemente. He has a podcast that I enjoy and also some YouTube videos. Fascinating stuff.

Like this?

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Tomb wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] No worries! Your username caught my eye and I enjoy the art of criminal profiling. I find it intriguing and interesting. I adore Jim Clemente. He has a podcast that I enjoy and also some YouTube videos. Fascinating stuff.

I wanted to get into criminology since that would have given me a chance to interview a criminal while studying but my parents weren't too happy with the idea since they worry about me too much.

Yep, that's the one. He's really fascinating and has worked on a number of high profile cases, including the Michael Jackson pedophile case. Unfortunately, he was diagnosed with cancer and wasn't able to testify in that trial. I'm thinking his cancer was related to responding to 9/11, but I'm not positive. I would love to spend a day with him.

Tomb wrote:

Yep, that's the one. He's really fascinating and has worked on a number of high profile cases, including the Michael Jackson pedophile case. Unfortunately, he was diagnosed with cancer and wasn't able to testify in that trial. I'm thinking his cancer was related to responding to 9/11, but I'm not positive. I would love to spend a day with him.

That sounds interesting.

9/11 is several orders of magnitude more interesting than Columbine.

I'm more interested in Columbine, because like a few others on this site, I find Islam motivated attacks pretty boring.

9/11.

9/11 was far more dramatic.

I was thinking that 9/11 took place on Tuesday because it meant that more people would be in the building than Monday and also meant that coverage would extend into the rest of the weekdays, gaining more media attention. Columbine took place on Tuesday as well and received massive media coverage.

I'd rather die in Columbine than in 9/11. I can't imagine the fear the victims felt as the flames smothered them. Being burnt alive is arguably the most painful way to die. If I chose to jump out the window, I think I might have regretted it as soon as I jumped because maybe if I stayed in the building I could have been saved but now I'm going to die regardless.

Also, Columbine took 15 lives whereas 9/11 took more than 3,000. So the victims of Columbine are better known than those of 9/11, so if I died at Columbine, my death would be better known.

With 9/11, I am more interested in what happened AFTER the attack - how people survived or not, the physics of the buildings, what happened on the planes, etc. But with Columbine, I am more interested in what happened BEFORE the attack - what led up to it, how they planned it, and the psychology of the boys.

And referencing something way, way back at the beginning of this thread - I have always thought of the jumpers as "fallers". I dislike the word jumpers. Those people, when they got up and went to work that morning, certainly did not intend to jump out of the building that day. It was beyond thier control.

Sad thing about 9/11 is that cops and others who were there at the scene are still dying to this day because of the fumes they were exposed to.

I found out a few years ago that my mother knew someone who died on 9/11 (he was in one of the towers).

Really put into perspective how far reaching it was.

9/11 was probably the most dramatic thing you could ever imagine.