Dylan the angel, Eric the MONSTER

You know, let me just say this first, I think what both boys did was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG but I notice from some people, I notice there's this belief that Dylan was the not too smart, naive, scared angel and Eric was the evil, mad scientist/evil genius monster.


I see this time and time and time again. "Oh Eric was a psychopath but Dylan was just depressed and suicidal" and I think this is utter bullshit, it's like people think it went like this between the two:



Dylan = depressed, suicidal, scared of Eric, lover of all people, basically like Bambi the deer.

Eric = The "fuck all life, kill up everyone" type of monster, with no feelings and no emotions, even his tears were made of knife blades or gas lighter fluid that would kill a person if they ever touched them.

---

Eric: Dylan let's blow up the school and kill everybody!

Dylan: What?! No, I don't know Eric. I mean I love people and that's pretty violent. Let's just go outside and smell flowers and be in tune with nature.

Eric: Goddamn it Dylan! You either do this with me or I'll slit your throat!

Dylan (gets scared): O-ok Eric. I'll do it, just please don't kill me, I'm sorry!

---

Please, that's such bull and for those who say that Dylan's journal wasn't as violent as Eric's, how the hell does people know Dylan didn't want his journal to be that way so that after they both died, it would be him who looked like the peaceful, calm one and Eric who looked like the evil, angry one?

I just think it's unfair that here's a kid who tried all his life (and failed) to get people to accept him and not treat him and look at him as a "weird looking kid" and yet even in death, he still has people looking at him that way, yet Dylan is the one who people have more sympathy for and Eric is the monster.

If we're going to be fair here, then let's be fair in saying, because neither got the medical treatment they needed, both boys were horrible, both boys were guilty of committing a horrible crime, both boys were bad (because of their mental illness they were bad, not bad seeds - but they were bad. Being bad and being a bad seed are two different things) and they were bad deeds; But I find a lot of times, people think Dylan was just the naive kid who was threatened into the crime and Eric was the monster and it's not true.

So I just wanted to post that because I see it all the time and I think it also might be because Sue has come out and put her face into this camera and that camera and the Harris's haven't, so let's all sympathize with Dylan and throw Eric under the bus. I personally do not sympathize with either of them on the act of them killing innocent children at a school. I sympathize with the depression, suicide and isolated feelings that they felt but I don't think either of them were angels but I also don't agree with the idea that Dylan was an angel and Eric was the only monster. So there, there's my point on that. I'm sure there will be replied showing all of Eric's angry journal entries as the so-called proof that Eric was Jason Voorhees and Dylan was a good little catholic school-boy who was possessed by the devil (the devil being Eric).

42099_4EVA wrote:

I see this time and time and time again. "Oh Eric was a psychopath but Dylan was just depressed and suicidal"

I don't believe that you are seeing this from the majority of people on this forum because almost everyone here disagrees with these sort of exaggerations. Some people here go as far as saying that they are convinced that Dylan was a psychopath while Eric was not and based on my observations, most of us think that they were equally culpable.

Right, I didn't say everyone here, I said a few, a small few and not only here but elsewhere online as well. They would rather call one the angel and the other bad, instead of realizing that both were bad in regards to the deeds that they did, not in regards to who they were. I was just pointing out my frustrations with that.

sscc wrote:

42099_4EVA wrote:

I see this time and time and time again. "Oh Eric was a psychopath but Dylan was just depressed and suicidal"

I don't believe that you are seeing this from the majority of people on this forum because almost everyone here disagrees with these sort of exaggerations. Some people here go as far as saying that they are convinced that Dylan was a psychopath while Eric was not and based on my observations, most of us think that they were equally culpable.

I think after researching Columbine a little more than the average person (who may have just read Cullens book and nothing else) most people would see that there was more to Dylan.

The "sweet, follower Dylan" theory has been around since day one. I followed Columbine from that day for YEARS. Then took a good 10 years off or so. It wasn't until after I read "A Mothers Reckoning" and writing my film that I got back into researching and reading.

Dylan grew up in Littleton and had a close group of friends, he tried to keep the mask on and remain well liked, until the cracks starting showing. Eric on the other hand was more volatile they say. Though less of Dylan's outbursts are talked about. I do think a few things regarding Dylan are exaggerated, because you'd think he'd get into trouble or at least have a meeting about his storming out of class, pushing girls and punching his female coworker.

Dylan hid all that rage better which is why people were so shocked. Dylan was very depressed, he also was very arrogant and felt above everyone and not of this earth. He was as angry as Eric.

I'm someone who does have empathy for the boys, up until 11am on 4/20 when the bombs were planted and it was the point of no return but yes, I do get sick of hearing Eric was the mastermind and Dylan was the hapless follower.

I read an old thread here where someone said "it was like Dylan convinced Eric to go on a suicide mission with him as long as they could take people down with them"

Dylan was just as at fault. He enjoyed himself that day. They were both filled with rage. I think both boys were depressed and both of them were homicidal. To say one was more at fault than the other is to minimize Dylan's role

Littlelo wrote:

Dylan was just as at fault. He enjoyed himself that day. They were both filled with rage. I think both boys were depressed and both of them were homicidal. To say one was more at fault than the other is to minimize Dylan's role

Sue in her book does say in October of 1999, she had to mourn Dylan all over again since she thought he had been duped or not fully involved in the massacre. He had a "part" in it.

It's a good topic you bring up though OP, why is it that Dylan does have that halo over his head when he's the one who was laughing and joyfully shooting people?

I love radioactive clothing but it makes Dylan saying "put him out of his misery" in the film.

We hear more instances of Dylan letting people go, that could be a reason why. John Savage for one, then the kid in the lunch room I think? I forget his name but he knew Dylan and Dylan looked at him and motioned for him to get out. If I am remembering correctly.

Eric was more methodical like he was on a mission.

Both were fully culpable, regardless of whose idea it was etc.. they brought it to fruition.

You're right. Sue had to morn Dylan all over again because she found out who he really was, sadly.

People forget that Eric was kind of the one to stop and ask John Savage to identify himself in the library. It wasn't just Dylan who showed mercy...

42099_4EVA wrote:

You know, let me just say this first, I think what both boys did was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG but I notice from some people, I notice there's this belief that Dylan was the not too smart, naive, scared angel and Eric was the evil, mad scientist/evil genius monster.


I see this time and time and time again. "Oh Eric was a psychopath but Dylan was just depressed and suicidal" and I think this is utter bullshit, it's like people think it went like this between the two:



Dylan = depressed, suicidal, scared of Eric, lover of all people, basically like Bambi the deer.

Eric = The "fuck all life, kill up everyone" type of monster, with no feelings and no emotions, even his tears were made of knife blades or gas lighter fluid that would kill a person if they ever touched them.

---

Eric: Dylan let's blow up the school and kill everybody!

Dylan: What?! No, I don't know Eric. I mean I love people and that's pretty violent. Let's just go outside and smell flowers and be in tune with nature.

Eric: Goddamn it Dylan! You either do this with me or I'll slit your throat!

Dylan (gets scared): O-ok Eric. I'll do it, just please don't kill me, I'm sorry!

---

Please, that's such bull and for those who say that Dylan's journal wasn't as violent as Eric's, how the hell does people know Dylan didn't want his journal to be that way so that after they both died, it would be him who looked like the peaceful, calm one and Eric who looked like the evil, angry one?

I just think it's unfair that here's a kid who tried all his life (and failed) to get people to accept him and not treat him and look at him as a "weird looking kid" and yet even in death, he still has people looking at him that way, yet Dylan is the one who people have more sympathy for and Eric is the monster.

If we're going to be fair here, then let's be fair in saying, because neither got the medical treatment they needed, both boys were horrible, both boys were guilty of committing a horrible crime, both boys were bad (because of their mental illness they were bad, not bad seeds - but they were bad. Being bad and being a bad seed are two different things) and they were bad deeds; But I find a lot of times, people think Dylan was just the naive kid who was threatened into the crime and Eric was the monster and it's not true.

So I just wanted to post that because I see it all the time and I think it also might be because Sue has come out and put her face into this camera and that camera and the Harris's haven't, so let's all sympathize with Dylan and throw Eric under the bus. I personally do not sympathize with  either of them on the act of them killing innocent children at a school. I sympathize with the depression, suicide and isolated feelings that they felt but I don't think either of them were angels but I also don't agree with the idea that Dylan was an angel and Eric was the only monster. So there, there's my point on that. I'm sure there will be replied showing all of Eric's angry journal entries as the so-called proof that Eric was Jason Voorhees and Dylan was a good little catholic school-boy who was possessed by the devil (the devil being Eric).

I've noted many times that I believe Dylan was the real sociopath that took advantage of Eric's vulnerable mental state (anger, etc).

Typically sociopaths/psychopaths don't get angry like Eric did. I think he may have had some anger control disorder or something.

Littlelo wrote:

You're right. Sue had to morn Dylan all over again because she found out who he really was, sadly.

People forget that Eric was kind of the one to stop and ask John Savage to identify himself in the library. It wasn't just Dylan who showed mercy...

Yes, didn't John move his gun out of the way and the Eric said "identify yourself?"

Screamingophelia wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

You're right. Sue had to morn Dylan all over again because she found out who he really was, sadly.

People forget that Eric was kind of the one to stop and ask John Savage to identify himself in the library. It wasn't just Dylan who showed mercy...

Yes, didn't John move his gun out of the way and the Eric said "identify yourself?"

Strange that Eric chose that moment to do that, when he had already shot several people without bothering to look at them properly. They had shot randomly outside, they could have easily killed some of their own friends, but when he got to John Savage's table, he stopped and asked him for his name. If he had to ask, he can't have really seen him properly, so why not shoot as he had before?
There is absolutely no question that this happened, we know it did, it's just odd that that was really the only time during the entire shooting that he bothered.

Eric's guilt wasn't in question. Didn't he kill others afterward?

SandraSmit19 wrote:

Strange that Eric chose that moment to do that, when he had already shot several people without bothering to look at them properly. They had shot randomly outside, they could have easily killed some of their own friends, but when he got to John Savage's table, he stopped and asked him for his name. If he had to ask, he can't have really seen him properly, so why not shoot as he had before?
There is absolutely no question that this happened, we know it did, it's just odd that that was really the only time during the entire shooting that he bothered.

Im guessing that either Eric caught a quick glimpse and thought he recognized him or John Savage got really fucking lucky.

Littlelo wrote:

You're right. Sue had to morn Dylan all over again because she found out who he really was, sadly.

People forget that Eric was kind of the one to stop and ask John Savage to identify himself in the library. It wasn't just Dylan who showed mercy...

I actually think Sue and Tom had several different Dylan's they had to come to terms with and then ultimately mourn.

First was the sweet, loving caring "Sunshine Boy" they had raised, thinking he was going to be the star of the family.

Then(in no particular order)there was the scared, depressed, suicidal Dylan who let as many people as he could live that day(Cullen's opinion). Despite he was walking around killing/injuring many others, when they thought/hoped he had gotten tricked somehow into it by Eric.

Another was the sick, crazy, angry, rage filled Dylan who they saw unleashing himself on the basement tapes. Spitting out vile and hate.  Although I am sure this Dylan was the hardest to mourn. As Sue said that hearing him say such things almost made her physically ill. I am sure they sat and wondered how their child had come to be this way.

I think Sue has latched on the scared, depressed, suicidal Dylan because it is the only one she can identify with as being somewhat as she though Dylan actually was. Meaning even though he was killing people he STILL let his love and caring show by letting people go.  

In my opinion Sue clings on to any bit of good that Dylan had, and attempts to lessen the bad. I also think that Sue has enormous guilt, and tries to protect Dylan in death as she was unable to in life. She loved her son, and that does cloud her judgement a wee bit.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

You're right. Sue had to morn Dylan all over again because she found out who he really was, sadly.

People forget that Eric was kind of the one to stop and ask John Savage to identify himself in the library. It wasn't just Dylan who showed mercy...

I actually think Sue and Tom had several different Dylan's they had to come to terms with and then ultimately mourn.

First was the sweet, loving caring "Sunshine Boy" they had raised, thinking he was going to be the star of the family.

Then(in no particular order)there was the scared, depressed, suicidal Dylan who let as many people as he could live that day(Cullen's opinion). Despite he was walking around killing/injuring many others, when they thought/hoped he had gotten tricked somehow into it by Eric.

Another was the sick, crazy, angry, rage filled Dylan who they saw unleashing himself on the basement tapes. Spitting out vile and hate.  Although I am sure this Dylan was the hardest to mourn. As Sue said that hearing him say such things almost made her physically ill. I am sure they sat and wondered how their child had come to be this way.

I think Sue has latched on the scared, depressed, suicidal Dylan because it is the only one she can identify with as being somewhat as she though Dylan actually was. Meaning even though he was killing people he STILL let his love and caring show by letting people go.  

In my opinion Sue clings on to any bit of good that Dylan had, and attempts to lessen the bad. I also think that Sue has enormous guilt, and tries to protect Dylan in death as she was unable to in life. She loved her son, and that does cloud her judgement a wee bit.

I wonder too if it is the fact that Dylan grew up in the community and had more people who knew him for longer that made it easier to say "Dylan lost his way, it was that outsider Eric, he's bad news" and that just got perpetuated over the last 18 years since the massacre?"

Turn that around and something like this happened where Eric grew up, say he stayed in Plattsburgh or Michigan and edgy Dylan in his black trench coat came into town it would be "Dylan was bad news, Eric was a sweetheart"

I agree. Usually any outsiders are suspect at first. Especially if they happen to talk, act, or dress differently then the mass.

I have heard a few people say that Eric had a slight accent, although I have never really noticed it in any of the videos.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I agree. Usually any outsiders are suspect at first. Especially if they happen to talk, act, or dress differently then the mass.

I have heard a few people say that Eric had a slight accent, although I have never really noticed it in any of the videos.

He has a slight Northeast accent, I hear it because I have one. LOL

It's kind of nasal quality.

If you listen very carefully he has a slight southern accent. Very slight and hard to pick up on though.

I'm Southern, and I don't really hear that in his voice either.

I wonder if he tried to change his accent to fit it better?

I'm almost 100% certain that Dylan was the one who brought the idea to Eric. Prior to the planning of "NBK" Eric was the type of guy who liked to write about stuff. He wrote about the missions, his thoughts on people and things he hated, jokes that he liked and so on. He had tons of profiles, blogs and things he wrote about both off and online.

I believe that Eric's journal started in February of 1998 because that is when they actually decided to do this. If it was any earlier than that, Eric would have started writing it down then.

Dylan wrote in his journal a few different times that he wanted to get a gun and at first he says he wants to use it on himself. Then he progresses to saying that he wants to go "NBK" with "her". A girl.

Dylan wanted "NBK" to be liked the movie "Natural Born Killers" that he was obsessed with. A story where a guy and a girl go on a killing spree. Dylan was the one who originally named this mission "NBK" and his original idea was to do it with a girl he was in love with. Not Eric. And Dylan wrote this stuff in his journal as far back as 1997. Eric never mentioned a single word about it until February 1998.

Personally I think Dylan knew that going on a killing spree with some girl who probably didn't even know him was not likely ever going to happen. And I think Dylan really wanted to commit suicide but couldn't just go through with it on his own.

So I think that Dylan mentioned this idea to Eric sometime around February 1998 and once they decided that it was official and they were going to do it is when Eric started his journal.

I think that Dylan just mentioned the shooting and I think the bombs were Eric's idea. Either way though, I truly believe that Dylan was actually the one who thought of the idea, named the idea and got Eric to do it with him.

As for Eric having no emotions and no sympathy and being a psychopath - I don't believe any of it. Eric wrote about hating the entire world and everyone in it, but I don't believe those were his true feelings. I think it bothered the hell out of him that he didn't really have any friends or a girlfriend. I think he wanted to be liked, I think he wanted friends, I think he wanted a girlfriend and wanted to go to the prom and be invited to parties. He hated Brooks for the longest time but as soon as Brooks asked him if he wanted to forget the stupid fights and be friends again, Eric quickly accepted.

And personally, I think that Eric might have had a little bit of hope that either they'd get caught or Dylan would back out. Ultimately though, he did go through with it.

I think Dylan is the one who manipulated Eric. And not only did he get Eric to go along with this so that Dylan could have a reason to finally kill himself, but he got Eric to put most of the money out for it and do all the planning and preparing. That's why people think Eric was this great mastermind - because he did all the work.

And even in the very end, I believe Dylan was still hesitating about going through with the suicide and the fact that Eric was dead before Dylan even shot himself makes me believe that he waited to make sure Eric would go through with it first. So not only did Dylan get Eric to do this, he got him to plan it, prepare it, pay for a good majority of it, but he also made sure that Eric actually killed himself. So which friend was actually the "monster"?

Jenn wrote:

And personally, I think that Eric might have had a little bit of hope that either they'd get caught or Dylan would back out. Ultimately though, he did go through with it.

I think Dylan is the one who manipulated Eric. And not only did he get Eric to go along with this so that Dylan could have a reason to finally kill himself, but he got Eric to put most of the money out for it and do all the planning and preparing. That's why people think Eric was this great mastermind - because he did all the work.

And even in the very end, I believe Dylan was still hesitating about going through with the suicide and the fact that Eric was dead before Dylan even shot himself makes me believe that he waited to make sure Eric would go through with it first. So not only did Dylan get Eric to do this, he got him to plan it, prepare it, pay for a good majority of it, but he also made sure that Eric actually killed himself. So which friend was actually the "monster"?

I think somewhere along these same lines. Dylan pitched the idea, and Eric jumped on board. Then Dylan sat back and pretty much watched/let Eric do all his dirty work. Dylan was said to be a slacker, and was sometimes lazy. Not wanting to complete schoolwork, homework, etc. Hell he even tried to slack on his Division program stuff. So he let Eric do everything knowing he was still going to get what he wanted out of it in the end.

I believe the vast majority of people get confused on who was the puppet and who was the Puppet master. As you stated there is proof that Dylan thought of NBK first, or had at least put it down on paper way before Eric did. I honestly feel that Dylan picked Eric because he knew he was vulnerable to a point.

Agreed that NBK was Dylan's idea and that he originally thought about doing it with a girl.

As far as manipulating, I think they both fed off each other in different ways. I can't say it was equal, but I believe they were both responsible for igniting a rage within the other person. in my opinion, the January incident is where they really started to combine their anger with the police, the school, and people in general. That is where the friendship truly became toxic.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Jenn wrote:

And personally, I think that Eric might have had a little bit of hope that either they'd get caught or Dylan would back out. Ultimately though, he did go through with it.

I think Dylan is the one who manipulated Eric. And not only did he get Eric to go along with this so that Dylan could have a reason to finally kill himself, but he got Eric to put most of the money out for it and do all the planning and preparing. That's why people think Eric was this great mastermind - because he did all the work.

And even in the very end, I believe Dylan was still hesitating about going through with the suicide and the fact that Eric was dead before Dylan even shot himself makes me believe that he waited to make sure Eric would go through with it first. So not only did Dylan get Eric to do this, he got him to plan it, prepare it, pay for a good majority of it, but he also made sure that Eric actually killed himself. So which friend was actually the "monster"?

I think somewhere along these same lines. Dylan pitched the idea, and Eric jumped on board. Then Dylan sat back and pretty much watched/let Eric do all his dirty work.  Dylan was said to be a slacker, and was sometimes lazy. Not wanting to complete schoolwork, homework, etc. Hell he even tried to slack on his Division program stuff. So he let Eric do everything knowing he was still going to get what he wanted out of it in the end.

I believe the vast majority of people get confused on who was the puppet and who was the Puppet master. As you stated there is proof that Dylan thought of NBK first, or had at least put it down on paper way before Eric did.  I honestly feel that Dylan picked Eric because he knew he was vulnerable to a point.

I did always think there was something dark about Eric killing himself first. Considering Dylan was the most openly suicidal.  Also if it's true what Lisa K heard when the boys entered the library the second time about still being with him. If it was about suicide I'd assume it was Dylan asking Eric.

I'm still not sure if Dylan removed his jewelry before, but that could have been him biding his time to make sure Eric died.

This is getting so much darker... Dylan was a lot more of a puppet master than people think, which makes him more chilling.

I after with Littlelo below they did get something from each other that they needed.

I think that as well. Eric got what he considered or thought was a real friend, and Dylan got someone he could count on to not back away from what he wanted to do.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I think that as well. Eric got what he considered or thought was a real friend, and Dylan got someone he could count on to not back away from what he wanted to do.

You can make so many different arguments about the boys, which is what makes this case so interesting. There's evidence that Eric was the driving force and also that Dylan planted the idea into Eric's head.

Did Dylan look at Eric as a best friend? Well he did take up 7 pages of Eric's yearbook and they did seem to get along in the videos and have fun with one another. Then again Dylan needed someone like Eric to do a lot of the NBK work, he just wanted to show up.

I think Eric motivated Dylan to continue planning and to not just end his life on his own. But at the same time, Dylan enjoyed what they did so much as heard on the 911 call...it's hard to say Eric was the evil mastermind. He wasn't.

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I think that as well. Eric got what he considered or thought was a real friend, and Dylan got someone he could count on to not back away from what he wanted to do.

You can make so many different arguments about the boys, which is what makes this case so interesting. There's evidence that Eric was the  driving force and also that Dylan planted the idea into Eric's head.

Did Dylan look at Eric as a best friend? Well he did take up 7 pages of Eric's  yearbook and they did seem to get along in the videos and have fun with one another.

I actually don't think Dylan thought of Eric as his best friend. But we do know that Eric did consider Dylan his best friend. I think that spot was filled by Zach or Nate. Eric was just a friend until NBK came into the picture. Then I think Dylan knew Eric was likely the only one who would go along with or be interested in NBK. Also that he was in a certain mind set to be capable of something like that.

Your statement "Then again Dylan needed someone like Eric to do a lot of the NBK work, he just wanted to show up." is spot on in my opinion.

Eric was the planner, the list maker, the get things done type. While Dylan lacked the motivation to even go through with his own suicide, much less do all the thinking and planning of NBK. So he let Eric plan and he was riding shotgun.

Littlelo wrote:

I think Eric motivated Dylan to continue planning and to not just end his life on his own. But at the same time, Dylan enjoyed what they did so much as heard on the 911 call...it's hard to say Eric was the evil mastermind. He wasn't.

The 911 call is hard to listen to. Dylan's laugh is terrifying. Not the chuckle you hear in Radioactive Clothing.

Both of them were in the wrong equally.

Eric was 2nd best to Dylan. He didn't consider him his best friend. That would have been Zach Heckler. And Dylan was devastated when Zach got a girlfriend and didn't spend as much time with him anymore. Even though he still had Eric, he didn't want to be around Eric, he wanted to be around Zach.

Eric copied Dylan all the way down to the way he started dressing, to the stickers he put on his car. Eric didn't even like liquor, but he drank it because Dylan did. And I'm pretty sure it was probably the same with the cigarettes.

Eric referred to Dylan as his best friend all of the time and mentioned how he got the exact same decal to put on his car because Dylan had one.

And I have yet to see any proof that the shooting was Eric's idea. I'm not talking about who did all the planning for it, I'm talking about which one of them went up to the other and said "we should do a shooting". I'm convinced that it was Dylan who did that because there is actual proof that he thought of going on a shooting and naming that shooting "NBK" way before Eric ever mentioned anything about a shooting.

Eric had a temper and was angry all of the time and Dylan used that to manipulate him into going on a shooting with him because that's what he wanted to do so that he could finally off himself. And honestly, I don't know why Dylan's Mother ignores that. Why she still thinks that Dylan was just mentally ill and got swept into it.

It's so damn obvious she did not even know her own son. Why she seems to find it impossible and won't even consider the idea of Dylan actually being the one to think this up is beyond me because the evidence is there. She just decided to ignore that and make it all about mental illness on Dylan's part and Eric being a psychopath. And that is not what the evidence left behind is saying. Not at all.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I think that as well. Eric got what he considered or thought was a real friend, and Dylan got someone he could count on to not back away from what he wanted to do.

You can make so many different arguments about the boys, which is what makes this case so interesting. There's evidence that Eric was the  driving force and also that Dylan planted the idea into Eric's head.

Did Dylan look at Eric as a best friend? Well he did take up 7 pages of Eric's  yearbook and they did seem to get along in the videos and have fun with one another.

I actually don't think Dylan thought of Eric as his best friend. But we do know that Eric did consider Dylan his best friend. I think that spot was filled by Zach or Nate. Eric was just a friend until NBK came into the picture. Then I think Dylan knew Eric was likely the only one who would go along with or be interested in NBK.  Also that he was in a certain mind set to be capable of something like that.

Your statement "Then again Dylan needed someone like Eric to do a lot of the NBK work, he just wanted to show up." is spot on in my opinion.

Eric was the planner, the list maker, the get things done type. While Dylan lacked the motivation to even go through with his own suicide, much less do all the thinking and planning of NBK. So he let Eric plan and he was riding shotgun.

The stories you hear about Nate sleeping over involved a lot more fun, cooking and watching TV late into the night and stuff. With Eric it was all secretive and stuff.

We do know Eric looked at Dylan as his best friend. I bet Dylan's laid back attitude (though he did say he hated laid back people, but he seemed more chill then Eric) helped Eric vent and sound off, he had someone he could be himself around.

Even glancing at their to do lists. Eric's was all tactical and Dylan's was "buy pants"

What do you think of CVA's "kill with me and I'll die with you" theory? He mentions it in several videos and I've seen others who agree with it.

Jenn wrote:

Eric was 2nd best to Dylan. He didn't consider him his best friend. That would have been Zach Heckler. And Dylan was devastated when Zach got a girlfriend and didn't spend as much time with him anymore. Even though he still had Eric, he didn't want to be around Eric, he wanted to be around Zach.

Eric copied Dylan all the way down to the way he started dressing, to the stickers he put on his car. Eric didn't even like liquor, but he drank it because Dylan did. And I'm pretty sure it was probably the same with the cigarettes.

Eric referred to Dylan as his best friend all of the time and mentioned how he got the exact same decal to put on his car because Dylan had one.

And I have yet to see any proof that the shooting was Eric's idea. I'm not talking about who did all the planning for it, I'm talking about which one of them went up to the other and said "we should do a shooting". I'm convinced that it was Dylan who did that because there is actual proof that he thought of going on a shooting and naming that shooting "NBK" way before Eric ever mentioned anything about a shooting.

Eric had a temper and was angry all of the time and Dylan used that to manipulate him into going on a shooting with him because that's what he wanted to do so that he could finally off himself. And honestly, I don't know why Dylan's Mother ignores that. Why she still thinks that Dylan was just mentally ill and got swept into it.

It's so damn obvious she did not even know her own son. Why she seems to find it impossible and won't even consider the idea of Dylan actually being the one to think this up is beyond me because the evidence is there. She just decided to ignore that and make it all about mental illness on Dylan's part and Eric being a psychopath. And that is not what the evidence left behind is saying. Not at all.

I agree. I think Dylan fooled people a lot better.

I bet it was a conversation that Dylan started and Eric ran with it.

Even in Eric's journals, Dylan mentions his self awareness and Eric writes "V and I are the only ones with self awareness' Dylan calls people Zombies, Eric follows suit in a way.

One of them liked cigars. Eric smoked a cigarette like you puff on a cigar or if you're trying to act like your smoking a cigarette but you don't want to.

Littlelo wrote:

What do you think of CVA's "kill with me and I'll die with you" theory? He mentions it in several videos and I've seen others who agree with it.

I can get behind that.

Jenn wrote:

Eric copied Dylan all the way down to the way he started dressing, to the stickers he put on his car. Eric didn't even like liquor, but he drank it because Dylan did. And I'm pretty sure it was probably the same with the cigarettes.

Eric referred to Dylan as his best friend all of the time and mentioned how he got the exact same decal to put on his car because Dylan had one.

I think Devon had even said somewhere that Eric copied Dylan and that he HATED it! But I can't remember exactly where I came across it though.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Jenn wrote:

Eric copied Dylan all the way down to the way he started dressing, to the stickers he put on his car. Eric didn't even like liquor, but he drank it because Dylan did. And I'm pretty sure it was probably the same with the cigarettes.

Eric referred to Dylan as his best friend all of the time and mentioned how he got the exact same decal to put on his car because Dylan had one.

I think Devon had even said somewhere that Eric copied Dylan and that he HATED it! But I can't remember exactly where I came across it though.

I feel like maybe the 11k? Devon did say that Eric copied everything Dylan did.

Do you think it is JUST the journal entries that made people feel this way about Dylan, him being the follower and meek?

What is it about him that makes the general public and even some of Dylans friends think that Eric was the criminal mastermind?

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Jenn wrote:

Eric copied Dylan all the way down to the way he started dressing, to the stickers he put on his car. Eric didn't even like liquor, but he drank it because Dylan did. And I'm pretty sure it was probably the same with the cigarettes.

Eric referred to Dylan as his best friend all of the time and mentioned how he got the exact same decal to put on his car because Dylan had one.

I think Devon had even said somewhere that Eric copied Dylan and that he HATED it! But I can't remember exactly where I came across it though.

I feel like maybe the 11k? Devon did say that Eric copied everything Dylan did.

I think Eric was actually jealous of Dylan in a way. Dylan was tall, had more friends etc. SO its not a huge stretch to think he did try to act like Dylan.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Do you think it is JUST the journal entries that made people feel this way about Dylan, him being the follower and meek?

What is it about him that makes the general public and even some of Dylans friends think that Eric was the criminal mastermind?

I think the journals are a big part of it, but not all of it.

Judy Brown has been repeating the "Dylan was a follower" theory since the shooting happened. And if I recall, others said that they were more surprised that Dylan was involved than they were about Eric. It might also be in some interviews from the 11k

None of this means Dylan was a follower, per se. In my mind, it just means he was more introverted than Eric and more tactful about his rage. This made it much more shocking once people learned he was involved.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Jenn wrote:

Eric copied Dylan all the way down to the way he started dressing, to the stickers he put on his car. Eric didn't even like liquor, but he drank it because Dylan did. And I'm pretty sure it was probably the same with the cigarettes.

Eric referred to Dylan as his best friend all of the time and mentioned how he got the exact same decal to put on his car because Dylan had one.

I think Devon had even said somewhere that Eric copied Dylan and that he HATED it! But I can't remember exactly where I came across it though.

I feel like maybe the 11k? Devon did say that Eric copied everything Dylan did.

I think Eric was actually jealous of Dylan in a way. Dylan was tall, had more friends etc. SO its not a huge stretch to think he did try to act like Dylan.

If he could be more like Dylan maybe he'd get more friends and fit in more so to speak.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Do you think it is JUST the journal entries that made people feel this way about Dylan, him being the follower and meek?

What is it about him that makes the general public and even some of Dylans friends think that Eric was the criminal mastermind?

I think it was mainly Eric attitude. Almost everyone who knew him said he was pretty much a hothead. That he was just plain out mean. He would get pissy about anything and then you ended up on one of his lists and that was it, he hated you from then on.

Eric was seemingly only nice to girls if he liked them, or was trying to date them etc.  Most the guys they hung around were more Dylan's friends, and Eric had issues with a lot of them. Other then Chris Morris who seemed to be more Eric's buddy then Dylan's.

Also Eric's angry out bursts probably didn't help, but when you pair it up with his hate filled journals most people stop there and say "Yep he did it, it was his idea" They never look deeper then the surface, and on the surface Eric tried to be a badass who didn't care about anything. BUT for those who have dug down you can see that for the most part it was just a ruse to hide behind.

Littlelo wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Do you think it is JUST the journal entries that made people feel this way about Dylan, him being the follower and meek?

What is it about him that makes the general public and even some of Dylans friends think that Eric was the criminal mastermind?

I think the journals are a big part of it, but not all of it.

Judy Brown has been repeating the "Dylan was a follower" theory since the shooting happened. And if I recall, others said that they were more surprised that Dylan was involved than they were about Eric. It might also be in some interviews from the 11k

None of this means Dylan was a follower, per se. In my mind, it just means he was more introverted than Eric and more tactful about his rage. This made it much more shocking once people learned he was involved.

A lot of it probably comes from the fact that yes he was more tactful and people knew him longer and Dylan seemed to try to get along with people more than Eric.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Do you think it is JUST the journal entries that made people feel this way about Dylan, him being the follower and meek?

What is it about him that makes the general public and even some of Dylans friends think that Eric was the criminal mastermind?

I think it was mainly Eric attitude. Almost everyone who knew him said he was pretty much a hothead. That he was just plain out mean. He would get pissy about anything and then you ended up on one of his lists and that was it, he hated you from then on.

Eric was seemingly only nice to girls if he liked them, or was trying to date them etc.  Most the guys they hung around were more Dylan's friends, and Eric had issues with a lot of them. Other then Chris Morris who seemed to be more Eric's buddy then Dylan's.

Also Eric's angry out bursts probably didn't help, but when you pair it up with his hate filled journals most people stop there and say "Yep he did it, it was his idea" They never look deeper then the surface, and on the surface Eric tried to be a badass who didn't care about anything. BUT for those who have dug down you can see that for the most part it was just a ruse to hide behind.

I can't add anything I completely agree

What would Judy Brown know? I mean seriously, Dylan hadn't been "best friends" with her son since they were in Kindergarten. Sure they had classes together and talked in school and maybe ate lunch together once in awhile, but Brooks wasn't even apart of their group of friends and Eric wasn't friends with Brooks for nearly 2 years.

Judy barely even knew Eric and her family wasn't as close to the Klebold's as she makes it out to be. And I still don't believe Dylan gave Brooks Eric's website. I really do think Brooks' brother is the one who came across it. Dylan was a lot closer with Eric than Brooks. Why would he go behind his back and give Brooks a link to a website? That makes no sense and I get tired of constantly seeing the Browns in the middle of this Columbine stuff just because Brooks was friends with Dylan when they were boy scouts together over 10 years prior. Yet there they are in the middle of every single interview and documentary.

I also don't believe Dylan gave Brooks the web address. He was a part of the rebel missions that Eric bragged about online. Why would he risk getting in trouble for them?

Jenn wrote:

That makes no sense and I get tired of constantly seeing the Browns in the middle of this Columbine stuff just because Brooks was friends with Dylan when they were boy scouts together over 10 years prior. Yet there they are in the middle of every single interview and documentary.

I think the Brown's were mainly included at first because of them having previously reported Eric. Judy seems to be the only one who played up the "Oh my baby Brooks was friends with Dylan" angle. While Randy has always came from the angle of "We reported this kid and NOTHING was done about it!"

Randy has always seemed more angry and distrustful of the way Columbine was handled. From Jeffco not following through on the reports that could have stopped it, to them then lying about it and going after Brooks as a way to cover up their shitty police work.  Although they did seem to stay front and center with anything Columbine related ever since. But for some reason I can stomach Randy far better then his wife or son.

Jenn wrote:

What would Judy Brown know? I mean seriously, Dylan hadn't been "best friends" with her son since they were in Kindergarten. Sure they had classes together and talked in school and maybe ate lunch together once in awhile, but Brooks wasn't even apart of their group of friends and Eric wasn't friends with Brooks for nearly 2 years.

Judy barely even knew Eric and her family wasn't as close to the Klebold's as she makes it out to be. And I still don't believe Dylan gave Brooks Eric's website. I really do think Brooks' brother is the one who came across it. Dylan was a lot closer with Eric than Brooks. Why would he go behind his back and give Brooks a link to a website? That makes no sense and I get tired of constantly seeing the Browns in the middle of this Columbine stuff just because Brooks was friends with Dylan when they were boy scouts together over 10 years prior. Yet there they are in the middle of every single interview and documentary.

I believe Aaron gave Brooks the website too. Brooks even lied about being at Dylan's funeral. It was Zach who was there.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Jenn wrote:

That makes no sense and I get tired of constantly seeing the Browns in the middle of this Columbine stuff just because Brooks was friends with Dylan when they were boy scouts together over 10 years prior. Yet there they are in the middle of every single interview and documentary.

I think the Brown's were mainly included at first because of them having previously reported Eric. Judy seems to be the only one who played up the "Oh my baby Brooks was friends with Dylan" angle. While Randy has always came from the angle of "We reported this kid and NOTHING was done about it!"

Randy has always seemed more angry and distrustful of the way Columbine was handled. From Jeffco not following through on the reports that could have stopped it, to them then lying about it and going after Brooks as a way to cover up their shitty police work.  Although they did seem to stay front and center with anything Columbine related ever since. But for some reason I can stomach Randy far better then his wife or son.

Randy's motives seem more genuine to me. Like he's angry at the situation and wants to actually do something about it.

As far as Eric's journals go. I imagine Devon saw at some point what Dylan said about her in it and couldn't have been too happy.

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Jenn wrote:

That makes no sense and I get tired of constantly seeing the Browns in the middle of this Columbine stuff just because Brooks was friends with Dylan when they were boy scouts together over 10 years prior. Yet there they are in the middle of every single interview and documentary.

I think the Brown's were mainly included at first because of them having previously reported Eric. Judy seems to be the only one who played up the "Oh my baby Brooks was friends with Dylan" angle. While Randy has always came from the angle of "We reported this kid and NOTHING was done about it!"

Randy has always seemed more angry and distrustful of the way Columbine was handled. From Jeffco not following through on the reports that could have stopped it, to them then lying about it and going after Brooks as a way to cover up their shitty police work.  Although they did seem to stay front and center with anything Columbine related ever since. But for some reason I can stomach Randy far better then his wife or son.

Randy's motives seem more genuine to me. Like he's angry at the situation and wants to actually do something about it.

EXACTLY! You can actually see the hate in his eyes when he talks about Jeffco. I truly think that Columbine effected him deeply. I mean they did what they thought was best, they turned in someone who was obviously making threats and they trusted the police to do their jobs. Then come to find out the police not only didn't do what most would have expected them to do(which likely could have stopped the deaths of 15 people)but then Jeffco tried to cover their own ass by saying the Brown's were lying about the reports, then going after Brooks as a way to discredit them in the media and public eye.

This is why I want Randy's book so bad. I want to see him roast Jeffco!

It's weird because when we talk about Judy and Randy it's rarely as Brooks' parents as a couple and more about them as separate people who are connected to Columbine. Judy seems more emotional and wanting to insert herself into the drama, while Randy wants to hold people accountable and set the record straight.

I agree with whoever above said they trust Randy more. Because I do too.