Why do school shooters never kill the bullies?

I mean it's happened in some lower profile cases when there were only 1 or 2 fatalities, but why is it that in mass shootings these gunmen always seem to kill indiscriminately? I'm perfectly sane and not a psychopathic murderer, but I know that if I ever snapped and was being ostracized by a large group of people, it would only be logical to pick the time and place that I could annihilate the greatest number of the group of bullies instead of killing random nerds in a library or arbitrarily murking kids in a hallway full of smoke.

Therewereonlyvictims wrote:

I mean it's happened in some lower profile cases when there were only 1 or 2 fatalities, but why is it that in mass shootings these gunmen always seem to kill indiscriminately? I'm perfectly sane and not a psychopathic murderer, but I know that if I ever snapped and was being ostracized by a large group of people, it would only be logical to pick the time and place that I could annihilate the greatest number of the group of bullies instead of killing random nerds in a library or arbitrarily murking kids in a hallway full of smoke.

I think, and I am a layman, that once you get to the point where you decide to commit an act of violence you want to cause destruction only. I don't know if E and D had problems with say Isaiah (which has been one of the many rumors that have come out about the case and obviously, that doesn't condone what they did) but I think once they bombs didn't go off they wanted to scare people and hurt them. They weren't planning on getting up close to anyone.

Would people look differently at shooters if they only killed their tormentors?

As for Columbine, they thought the bombs were going to go off and it sounds like they were put under tables that jocks usually sit under. When they didn't they were both pretty erratic and just wanted to hurt everyone. I would think once you get to the point, you just hate yourself so much and everyone else that you stop caring. They did have people they cared about in the school that day and they didn't care anymore and I imagine that has to be hard for them. If you heard Chris Morris's 911 call he said something like "Yea, I know them I thought they were my friends"

Excellent question!!

Mass shooter want fame and have limited time before the police shows up (hopefully the don't sit outside) so he (or rarely she) can't just walk into classrooms and shoot like 1 kid, they could get jumped and they'd end up with few deaths and/or injuries.

Screamingophelia wrote:

they thought the bombs were going to go off and it sounds like they were put under tables that jocks usually sit under. 

Well if the bombs went off it would've killed hundreds of people, so I don't think it matters as to which table they put it under.

QuestionMark wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

they thought the bombs were going to go off and it sounds like they were put under tables that jocks usually sit under. 

Well if the bombs went off it would've killed hundreds of people, so I don't think it matters as to which table they put it under.

That is a good point. Probably more symbolic than anything.

Because it's not all about bullying. There are many other, bigger factors as to why you choose to shoot up a school.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Would people look differently at shooters if they only killed their tormentors?

I actually do think people feel differently when it is ONLY the bullies that are targeted. Some would consider it somewhat justified.

Regarding the placement of the propane bombs, this report said that Eric and Dylan placed them by tables "PP" and "QQ" and it also says that this is where they usually sat with their own friends. Is that true?
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Based on these diagrams, it looks like Eric may have planned to place them near two cafeteria pillars, possibly in an attempt to collapse the structure of the cafeteria. They included the first picture in the report but the second drawing also shows similar markings near the pillars. You can also see that he barely bothered drawing the tables in the first and didn't draw them at all in the second so it seems more likely that the structure of the cafeteria was the target rather than any person or group in the cafeteria.
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However, it doesn't seem that they actually placed the bombs near the pillars on that day if the report is accurate.

Why did they alter the placement of the bombs? It might make sense to place them where they usually sat in order to avoid suspicion but is that really what they did? I remember reading that Eric and Dylan would often sit in a car in the parking lot during lunch so did they even have a regular table? It seems even more unlikely that they would have two regular tables. Were those really the "jock tables" after all?

It looks like they placed the bombs right in the middle of all four pillars and in the center of the entire cafeteria. Did they think the bombs would be destructive enough to blow out all four pillars with this placement? Was it the opposite, that they assumed the bombs would not be destructive enough to knock out the pillars so they tried to place them in a central location that would instead injure or kill the maximum number of people?

I could probably clarify this information if I looked through the interviews but does anyone else already know the answer? Who regularly sat at tables PP and QQ?

Screamingophelia wrote:

Therewereonlyvictims wrote:

I mean it's happened in some lower profile cases when there were only 1 or 2 fatalities, but why is it that in mass shootings these gunmen always seem to kill indiscriminately? I'm perfectly sane and not a psychopathic murderer, but I know that if I ever snapped and was being ostracized by a large group of people, it would only be logical to pick the time and place that I could annihilate the greatest number of the group of bullies instead of killing random nerds in a library or arbitrarily murking kids in a hallway full of smoke.

I think, and I am a layman, that once you get to the point where you decide to commit an act of violence you want to cause destruction only. I don't know if E and D had problems with say Isaiah (which has been one of the many rumors that have come out about the case and obviously, that doesn't condone what they did) but I think once they bombs didn't go off they wanted to scare people and hurt them. They weren't planning on getting up close to anyone.

Would people look differently at shooters if they only killed their tormentors?  

As for Columbine, they thought the bombs were going to go off and it sounds like they were put under tables that jocks usually sit under. When they didn't they were both pretty erratic and just wanted to hurt everyone. I would think once you get to the point, you just hate yourself so much and everyone else that you stop caring. They did have people they cared about in the school that day and they didn't care anymore and I imagine that has to be hard for them. If you heard Chris Morris's 911 call he said something like "Yea, I know them I thought they were my friends"

Excellent question!!

Agree completely!  They weren't targeting one person or group of people, but rather they were targeting anyone and everyone.

23september wrote:

Because it's not all about bullying. There are many other, bigger factors as to why you choose to shoot up a school.

Indeed. Bullying can certainly make the problem worse but rarely is it the only factor.

I've mentioned before the school environment may have exacerbated their issues, but I don't think it caused them.

maybe because they wanted to scar the memories of the bullies? I mean that kid would probably been crying and saying " I'm sorry i didn't know this kid would be like this" and probably be guilty for the rest of their lives.

EthanEmerson wrote:

Their anger is turned to everyone for a couple of reasons. One, nobody did anything to help them when they needed it. Everyone becomes a target at that point. Many past shooters who didn't commit suicide have said that directly, and I can speak to that personally as well when I was caught planning in '95. First it was about the individuals, then it was about all the people who never stepped in. Once it gets to that point, it's like, screw it, everyone's going down...

That's the thought process, anyway.

There are people who do just kill the person they have the biggest problem with, but the problem is, when rage starts to build inside of you when you don't care if you live or die, expanding your hatred and targets guarantees you a bigger release of rage. Which, at the time, is what you think will make you feel better, relieve your suffering. It's a natural course of the evolution of brewing rage for most people. Not all...

You were caught planning? Have you made any posts about your story?

EthanEmerson wrote:

I was caught planning in '95. 

Holy shit dude. 

EthanEmerson wrote:

Their anger is turned to everyone for a couple of reasons. One, nobody did anything to help them when they needed it. Everyone becomes a target at that point. Many past shooters who didn't commit suicide have said that directly, and I can speak to that personally as well when I was caught planning in '95. First it was about the individuals, then it was about all the people who never stepped in. Once it gets to that point, it's like, screw it, everyone's going down...

That's the thought process, anyway.

There are people who do just kill the person they have the biggest problem with, but the problem is, when rage starts to build inside of you when you don't care if you live or die, expanding your hatred and targets guarantees you a bigger release of rage. Which, at the time, is what you think will make you feel better, relieve your suffering. It's a natural course of the evolution of brewing rage for most people. Not all...

I agree. After a certain point is reached most no longer care about the right or wrong of anything. Hell even Eric and Dylan knew they would likely kill or seriously hurt some of their own friends. Did the thought deter them? Not in the least, they merely considered it collateral damage.


Also if you don't mind me asking, but what was the fallout of you getting caught?

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

EthanEmerson wrote:

Their anger is turned to everyone for a couple of reasons. One, nobody did anything to help them when they needed it. Everyone becomes a target at that point. Many past shooters who didn't commit suicide have said that directly, and I can speak to that personally as well when I was caught planning in '95. First it was about the individuals, then it was about all the people who never stepped in. Once it gets to that point, it's like, screw it, everyone's going down...

That's the thought process, anyway.

There are people who do just kill the person they have the biggest problem with, but the problem is, when rage starts to build inside of you when you don't care if you live or die, expanding your hatred and targets guarantees you a bigger release of rage. Which, at the time, is what you think will make you feel better, relieve your suffering. It's a natural course of the evolution of brewing rage for most people. Not all...

I agree. After a certain point is reached most no longer care about the right or wrong of anything. Hell even Eric and Dylan knew they would likely kill or seriously hurt some of their own friends. Did the thought deter them? Not in the least, they merely considered it collateral damage.


Also if you don't mind me asking, but what was the fallout of you getting caught?

"Morris, Nate if you live, you can have all the stuff in my room..' that's pretty cold. Though Nate did get Dylan's sunglasses.

I'd like to know too, what happened?

EthanEmerson wrote:

Their anger is turned to everyone for a couple of reasons. One, nobody did anything to help them when they needed it. Everyone becomes a target at that point. Many past shooters who didn't commit suicide have said that directly, and I can speak to that personally as well when I was caught planning in '95. First it was about the individuals, then it was about all the people who never stepped in. Once it gets to that point, it's like, screw it, everyone's going down...

That's the thought process, anyway.

There are people who do just kill the person they have the biggest problem with, but the problem is, when rage starts to build inside of you when you don't care if you live or die, expanding your hatred and targets guarantees you a bigger release of rage. Which, at the time, is what you think will make you feel better, relieve your suffering. It's a natural course of the evolution of brewing rage for most people. Not all...

plz tell more

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

EthanEmerson wrote:

Their anger is turned to everyone for a couple of reasons. One, nobody did anything to help them when they needed it. Everyone becomes a target at that point. Many past shooters who didn't commit suicide have said that directly, and I can speak to that personally as well when I was caught planning in '95. First it was about the individuals, then it was about all the people who never stepped in. Once it gets to that point, it's like, screw it, everyone's going down...

That's the thought process, anyway.

There are people who do just kill the person they have the biggest problem with, but the problem is, when rage starts to build inside of you when you don't care if you live or die, expanding your hatred and targets guarantees you a bigger release of rage. Which, at the time, is what you think will make you feel better, relieve your suffering. It's a natural course of the evolution of brewing rage for most people. Not all...

I agree. After a certain point is reached most no longer care about the right or wrong of anything. Hell even Eric and Dylan knew they would likely kill or seriously hurt some of their own friends. Did the thought deter them? Not in the least, they merely considered it collateral damage.


Also if you don't mind me asking, but what was the fallout of you getting caught?

"Morris, Nate if you live, you can have all the stuff in my room..' that's pretty cold.

Very cold indeed.

Quote :

Also if you don't mind me asking, but what was the fallout of you getting caught? Shocked

Hopefully LE were involved.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Though Nate did get Dylan's sunglasses. 

Must have been pretty good sunglasses for him to want to take it from his dead friend.

QuestionMark wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Though Nate did get Dylan's sunglasses. 

Must have been pretty good sunglasses for him to want to take it from his dead friend.

I think he took them as a remembrance item when he was getting ready to leave town, if my memory serves me right.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Though Nate did get Dylan's sunglasses. 

Must have been pretty good sunglasses for him to want to take it from his dead friend.

I think he took them as a remembrance item when he was getting ready to leave town, if my memory serves me right.

I mean IDK, if I were Nate I would've taken something other then sunglasses.

QuestionMark wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Though Nate did get Dylan's sunglasses. 

Must have been pretty good sunglasses for him to want to take it from his dead friend.

I think he took them as a remembrance item when he was getting ready to leave town, if my memory serves me right.

I mean IDK, if I were Nate I would've taken something other then sunglasses.

Sue talked about this in her book, he wanted a keepsake from Dylan's room. He chose the sunglasses. Maybe it was a pair that Dylan had worn a lot.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Though Nate did get Dylan's sunglasses. 

Must have been pretty good sunglasses for him to want to take it from his dead friend.

I think he took them as a remembrance item when he was getting ready to leave town, if my memory serves me right.

I mean IDK, if I were Nate I would've taken something other then sunglasses.

Sue talked about this in her book, he wanted a keepsake from Dylan's room. He chose the sunglasses. Maybe it was a pair that Dylan had worn a lot.

They were probably his round ones he wore

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Though Nate did get Dylan's sunglasses. 

Must have been pretty good sunglasses for him to want to take it from his dead friend.

I think he took them as a remembrance item when he was getting ready to leave town, if my memory serves me right.

I mean IDK, if I were Nate I would've taken something other then sunglasses.

Sue talked about this in her book, he wanted a keepsake from Dylan's room. He chose the sunglasses. Maybe it was a pair that Dylan had worn a lot.

They were probably his round ones he wore

Safe to assume they were a pair that had at least some sort of sentimental value for Nate, which is likely why he chose them.

EthanEmerson wrote:

Well, at one point I did share a little bit on my blog, years ago, but since I was writing more about it I decided to take it down until it was polished for clarity. I put the project on hold for about 7 years and picked it back up not long ago... I figured it was better to share the story in the broader context of where all of this has led me to now because that is an important part of the whole story.

I ditched all my other projects to complete the book, and am posting it all online so everyone has free access to it. Working on that in tandem with the relaunch of the research site I mentioned in an earlier post. Just making sure I don't publish it before it's complete. I used to publish projects that were a constant work in progress and then I'd get really busy and there would be broken links, and that pissed people off (sorry!!!) so I am not going to do that again!

The fallout was absolutely unbelievable. I was facing charges for terrorist threats, which is a felony, and the judge threw out my case without ever meeting me. I got 2 years of probation (for 9th and 10th grade), and I had to take classes in the summer to "keep busy" so I learned how to develop my own film in a photography class, and played some sports like football and soccer. The threat I made was directly to a specific student and was recorded on tape. It had the lyrics to Green Day's "Having a Blast" in the background, and I admitted to it so the judge had no reason not to convict me.

After I was arrested they found binders full of my writings fantasizing about killing the vice principal, with ideas for how to blow up the school. They determined I wasn't a threat, so when I got let go, I kept planning for the next year. Same students.

I ended up transferring schools because something in me didn't want to do it. I made my mom transfer me, I knew I would be dead and kill other people if I didn't get out of that social environment. What I experienced, looking at it now, I wish I had known I could have called the cops myself to file a report for what was going on at that school. Someone told me I wasn't 18 so I didn't have a right to file a report and I believed them for some reason.

It took from 2nd grade to 8th grade for it to culminate into the belief that killing everyone was a good solution. I had no access to weapons, which is probably PART of why they dropped the case. Unfortunately, when that happens, it just pushes out plans for someone who is really intent on suicide/killing others, which at the time, I was.

I see so many ways they failed to detect what was going on in my world, and so many ways it could have been different. Hindsight. Well, when I changed schools, my life drastically changed. Being out of that environment - away from the people I had been around since 2nd grade - was literally the difference between suffocating and being able to breathe... I still got harassed but I could brush it off easily because it was nothing like before.

The most bizarre part of that situation is that the school administration, and my probation officer, were convinced that I was one of the kids running around drinking, stealing, and doing drugs... I couldn't tell the difference between wine and tequila at that point, and had never even touched a cigarette... I think teachers and school administrators just have no idea what to look for in students who they perceive to be "troublemakers." When I was in school, if you got beat up by the kid with a criminal record, you were automatically one of them by association. It's really bizarre.

I think teachers struggle with threat assessment because they don't understand how a situation can escalate. They don't understand how persistent people are who don't have access to weapons. They don't understand that some kids aren't a threat, but they're angry and upset but it's so easy to turn that around... they see through a different, narrow lens that makes them lump everyone with "behavioral issues" together... then they dig around for a reason and come up with a psychological profile that's so off base.

I was getting beat up and abused by students and the principal and the best they could do was blame my lack of a father in my life. When, in my world, he moved when I was 12 and I hardly saw him anyway so we didn't have a relationship to start with, really, it was not that big of a deal... meanwhile, they're ignoring the reality of what was actually happening in my life AT school...

Seems like many people are just looking in the wrong direction because it's a subject they're so completely unfamiliar with, they really can't see what's actually going on... like they legitimately don't see it.

I got lost in the world of harassment where I decided to dish it back even harder. It was so easy to get lost in that world... once I got away with certain ways of retaliating in the beginning, it was like a high.

Glad it worked out, although that argument about an absent father made me chuckle real good. Mine was very prominent, and he was shit.