Cullen on Bullying

It's interesting to me since he has so much empathy for Dylan but to put in on people he claims to be "fans" when there is evidence in the 11k and also from people like Brooks, Chad and Devon seems absurd. Also to be honest you can have friends and be bullied. Also most kids, especially teenage boys will not report bullying. Dylan especially would be embarrassed not only because of his height but his intelligence.


"When we published this book, I naively thought the bully-motive theory would fade. But so many kids are invested in the avenging angels myth. Columbiners are industrious cherry-pickers, pouncing on any quarrel or even sadness in the killers' lives as evidence of bullies. Eric and Dylan had some bad days, to be sure. They probably got in a food fight that left them covered in ketchup. The details are murky"

I somehow feel that because Cullen himself was bullied in highschool, he can't except that other people got it worse than him. I don't know, from the beginning I didn't like him, there is something about him that makes him unsympathetic to me.
I think he simply likes the fame he got because of his book.
And as you said, there is enough evidence in the 11K that Eric and Dylan were bullied, but Cullen just ignores the facts.
But as you can see on this forum, a lot of people know better than to belive him. So I just decided to ignore everything Cullen says or does, because otherwise, it will just make me angry.

rebootoX wrote:

I think he simply likes the fame he got because of his book.

AGREED! Cullen tries his best to stay as relevant in the Columbine community as he possibly can.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

rebootoX wrote:

I think he simply likes the fame he got because of his book.

AGREED! Cullen tries his best to stay as relevant in the Columbine community as he possibly can.  

And they want him around as much as they want David Hogg around. Didn’t David Hogg start speaking on their behalf and many people told him to shut up... could Be misremembering.

Screamingophelia wrote:

"They probably got in a food fight that left them covered in ketchup. The details are murky"

Is this really what he said? Fucking damn, that is one terrible way to spin the ketchup tampon incident.

I wrote about this may times. There was bullying in Columbine, especially in 97 and 98'. A huge amount of kids from all sorts of backgrounds and cliques at some point felt prey to the bullies of "class of 98 jocks". If you read the interviews in Larkin's book, the vast majority of the school hated the 98' jocks, especially Hoffschneider.

Dylan and Eric probably weren't spared, but there's also no evidence that they were especially singled out. By all information, the jewish kids were the ones that were the targests of the worst bullying (Note: Nobody in school knew Dylan was part Jewish, even Eric didn't know up to a point). Certainly bullying was a bigger deal for Brooks than it was for Eric and Dylan.

Also, the jocks of 98' had already graduated. The bullyign situation vastly improved since. If bullying was their reason, then this should make E&D less homicidal in 1999 than they were in 1998, but this certainly ins't the case.

Dylan and especially Eric in his diary are pretty blunt about what pisses them off most and why the shooting will occur. Neither mention bullying, but that doesn't stop Eric from complaining about a lot of more embarassing stuff - that his friends don't invite him to cool events, that he can't pick up girls, that a loser like Walsh caught him and that he feels scrawny etc.


The supporters of the bullying theory keep saying that "the fact that he didn't write about bullying is the best proof that he was bullied". That's wrong and in my opinion just proves how little they understand Eric. If bullying really were a major factor for Eric, he would write and rant and rave about it, as he does about everything and everyone that pisses him off.

Sabratha wrote:

Dylan and especially Eric in his diary are pretty blunt about what pisses them off most and why the shooting will occur. Neither mention bullying, but that doesn't stop Eric from complaining about a lot of more embarassing stuff - that his friends don't invite him to cool events, that he can't pick up girls, that a loser like Walsh caught him and that he feels scrawny etc.


The supporters of the bullying theory keep saying that "the fact that he didn't write about bullying is the best proof that he was bullied". That's wrong and in my opinion just proves how little they understand Eric. If bullying really were a major factor for Eric, he would write and rant and rave about it, as he does about everything and everyone that pisses him off.

He DID write about getting bullied. I even quoted the passaged from his journal where he talked about people picking on him. Do I need to quote them again? You seem to be selectively ignoring it.

QuestionMark wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

Dylan and especially Eric in his diary are pretty blunt about what pisses them off most and why the shooting will occur. Neither mention bullying, but that doesn't stop Eric from complaining about a lot of more embarassing stuff - that his friends don't invite him to cool events, that he can't pick up girls, that a loser like Walsh caught him and that he feels scrawny etc.


The supporters of the bullying theory keep saying that "the fact that he didn't write about bullying is the best proof that he was bullied". That's wrong and in my opinion just proves how little they understand Eric. If bullying really were a major factor for Eric, he would write and rant and rave about it, as he does about everything and everyone that pisses him off.

He DID write about getting bullied. I even quoted the passaged from his journal where he talked about people picking on him. Do I need to quote them again? You seem to be selectively ignoring it.

I do not recall him ever using the phrase "pick on" in his journal. I think I know which part you mean though:

E.Harris wrote:

Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, how fucking weak I am and shit, well I will get you all back: ultimate fucking revenge here.

He complains that people make fun of him. But are those the bullies and is he talking about jocks and whatnot ehre? I believe we need to complement it the sentence just after this:

E.Harris wrote:

you people could have shown more respect, treated me better, asked for my knowledge or guidence more, treated me more like senior, and maybe I wouldn't have been as ready to tear your fucking heads of

I think the "asked for my knowledge or guidence more" part makes is clear that this is not directed at Jocks or "stranger" bullies. This is directed at his "friends" who don't show him enough respect and don't realize what a great wise guy he is.

Let me end with one of his last sentences:

E.Harris wrote:

I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't fucking say, "well thats your fault" because it isnt, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no no dont let the weird looking Eric KID come along

Again: IT is not about jocks that are pushing him around. Bullies make you suffer, not "leave you out of fun things". Its again about friends who don't give him all the reverenmce and respect he feels he rightfully deserves. Its his narcissistic side showing. What he is saying is rather something along the lines of: "I'm so great, you will all pay for not treating me as such".

It is all about lack of respect and making fun of. That's a very serious thing for a narcissist or a psychopath (psychopathy is often related to both narcissism and paranoia tyo some extent). To answer a potential question: We can't be sure that Eric was psychopathic, but it is certainly possible. He exhibited psychopathic traits and factor 2 behaviors.

Sabratha wrote:

E.Harris wrote:

Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, how fucking weak I am and shit, well I will get you all back: ultimate fucking revenge here.

He complains that people make fun of him. But are those the bullies and is he talking about jocks and whatnot ehre? I believe we need to complement it the sentence just after this:

E.Harris wrote:

you people could have shown more respect, treated me better, asked for my knowledge or guidence more, treated me more like senior, and maybe I wouldn't have been as ready to tear your fucking heads of

I think the "asked for my knowledge or guidence more" part makes is clear that this is not directed at Jocks or "stranger" bullies. This is directed at his "friends" who don't show him enough respect and don't realize what a great wise guy he is. 

I disagree. It could easily be directed at people who had picked on him. The wording is ambiguous enough for that. 

Sabratha wrote:

Let me end with one of his last sentences:

E.Harris wrote:

I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't fucking say, "well thats your fault" because it isnt, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no no dont let the weird looking Eric KID come along

Again: IT is not about jocks that are pushing him around. Bullies make you suffer, not "leave you out of fun things".

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It can be the same thing really.

QuestionMark wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

E.Harris wrote:

Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, how fucking weak I am and shit, well I will get you all back: ultimate fucking revenge here.

He complains that people make fun of him. But are those the bullies and is he talking about jocks and whatnot ehre? I believe we need to complement it the sentence just after this:

E.Harris wrote:

you people could have shown more respect, treated me better, asked for my knowledge or guidence more, treated me more like senior, and maybe I wouldn't have been as ready to tear your fucking heads of

I think the "asked for my knowledge or guidence more" part makes is clear that this is not directed at Jocks or "stranger" bullies. This is directed at his "friends" who don't show him enough respect and don't realize what a great wise guy he is. 

I disagree. It could easily be directed at people who had picked on him. The wording is ambiguous enough for that. 

Sabratha wrote:

Let me end with one of his last sentences:

E.Harris wrote:

I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't fucking say, "well thats your fault" because it isnt, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no no dont let the weird looking Eric KID come along

Again: IT is not about jocks that are pushing him around. Bullies make you suffer, not "leave you out of fun things".

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It can be the same thing really.

Social rejection can lead to bullying, often does. I'm not sure I'm seeing the connection in Eric's case. For certain he was an easier target that kids that were super important for the school (like star athletes), but other than that Eric was a pretty "average Joe". No better or worse target of bullies than 90% of other kids imho.

I'm also not sure Eric in fact went through anything that can be seriously called "social rejection". Not being invited to a "cool party", or not being able to get a "cool date" to the prom - that's stuff that pretty much everyone goes through at some point being a teenager.

None of us was there, so we won't be able to judge if Eric was really dissed or alienated, or is he gets hugely offended by normal situations that we would all just brush off. Somehow, I tend to see it as the latter - especially because of the wording he uses like "you people could have (...) asked for my knowledge or guidence more". To me that last part does feel more like an egomaniac than an ostracized kid.


As for E&D in general, they do not seem to be ostracized and alientated. They keep hanging out with Nate, Robyn, Chris, Becca Heins, Zach Hecker, other peeps from Blackjack etc. Even the day before the shooting, they are hanging out with Becca Heins & Co in a fast food joint. Maybe its not the most glamorous place to be and not the "coolest kids in the block". Maybe those are in fact the "weird kids" who dress black and listen to metal and industrial music, but even so it does not look like social isolation.

Sabratha wrote:

Social rejection can lead to bullying, often does. I'm not sure I'm seeing the connection in Eric's case. For certain he was an easier target that kids that were super important for the school (like star athletes), but other than that Eric was a pretty "average Joe". No better or worse target of bullies than 90% of other kids imho.

I'm also not sure Eric in fact went through anything that can be seriously called "social rejection". Not being invited to a "cool party", or not being able to get a "cool date" to the prom - that's stuff that pretty much everyone goes through at some point being a teenager.

None of us was there, so we won't be able to judge if Eric was really dissed or alienated, or is he gets hugely offended by normal situations that we would all just brush off. Somehow, I tend to see it as the latter - especially because of the wording he uses like "you people could have (...) asked for my knowledge or guidence more". To me that last part does feel more like an egomaniac than an ostracized kid.

I suppose we're just going to have to leave it at that then. I have my viewpoint, you have yours, and without actually having been there neither of us can really convince the other.

QuestionMark wrote:

I suppose we're just going to have to leave it at that then. I have my viewpoint, you have yours, and without actually having been there neither of us can really convince the other.

Fair enough. I think one thing we could agree about is that in the diary Eric is complaining about cool people not respecting him, not asking him for guidance and not inviting him to cool events.

I think we can at least agree that it doesn't seem like he is writing about the jocks here.

QuestionMark wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

"They probably got in a food fight that left them covered in ketchup. The details are murky"

Is this really what he said? Fucking damn, that is one terrible way to spin the ketchup tampon incident.

Yes.

Their friends say they witnessed the bullying

Also, someone like Dylan isn’t Going to shout it from the rooftops. It would be embarrassing for him due to his height and intelligence.


Most people don’t go to teachers and stuff and say what is happening. I stopped going to people when I torment Got worse . I also never wrote about it I wrote about other things. It was embarrassing to me

I firmly believe there was a bullying issue there’s too much evidence.


Also, to be honest since I live in the area I’ve met people that confirm the bullying...

Screamingophelia wrote:

Also, someone like Dylan isn’t Going to shout it from the rooftops. It would be embarrassing for him due to his height and intelligence.

Dylan almost doesn't write anything about everyday events either way. I'm pretty convinced Dylan and/or Eric did in fact get attacked by jocks at some point. It seems a lot if not most kids at CHS went through that at least once. I'm pretty sure they were pissed when that happened. Its like the event when the guy walking down the corridor bumps their camera. These things did happen in CHS to all sorts of people all the time.

But the question is - was bullying really the cause, or even one of the main causes of the shooting? Did bullying occupy a large part of E&D's thinking? Bullying doesn't seem to take center stage in either Dylan or Eric's writings, at the same time there are several themes that do take center stage and that seem to get a lot of attention from E&D.

We should focus on what they say and write about, instead of focusing on things they don't write about.

Spree killings are rare and unusual events and the people behind them are mostly unusual themselves. When we look at E&D we should pay extra attention to the unusual things, not the things they have in common with millions of other teenagers. The things that set them apart from others are likely the things that made them behave in a way apart from others.

I think a lot of normal people tend to project their own highschool experiences and motivations onto E&D. But E&D did not behave or react in a way that these "normal people" do.

Sabratha wrote:

I wrote about this may times. There was bullying in Columbine, especially in 97 and 98'. A huge amount of kids from all sorts of backgrounds and cliques at some point felt prey to the bullies of "class of 98 jocks". If you read the interviews in Larkin's book, the vast majority of the school hated the 98' jocks, especially Hoffschneider.

Dylan and Eric probably weren't spared, but there's also no evidence that they were especially singled out. By all information, the jewish kids were the ones that were the targests of the worst bullying (Note: Nobody in school knew Dylan was part Jewish, even Eric didn't know up to a point). Certainly bullying was a bigger deal for Brooks than it was for Eric and Dylan.

Also, the jocks of 98' had already graduated. The bullyign situation vastly improved since. If bullying was their reason, then this should make E&D less homicidal in 1999 than they were in 1998, but this certainly ins't the case.

Dylan and especially Eric in his diary are pretty blunt about what pisses them off most and why the shooting will occur. Neither mention bullying, but that doesn't stop Eric from complaining about a lot of more embarassing stuff - that his friends don't invite him to cool events, that he can't pick up girls, that a loser like Walsh caught him and that he feels scrawny etc.


The supporters of the bullying theory keep saying that "the fact that he didn't write about bullying is the best proof that he was bullied". That's wrong and in my opinion just proves how little they understand Eric. If bullying really were a major factor for Eric, he would write and rant and rave about it, as he does about everything and everyone that pisses him off.

No, I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you here. A majority of Eric's journal writings were written as REB, REB being the bad ass, "I hate everything and don't fuck with me or I'll blow you away" type of persona, so to write:

"they keep bullying me, pushing me into lockers, dousing me with ketchup covered tampons, etc, and it hurts, it hurts my feelings so much. I just want them to stop."

No, that wasn't REB's way, I don't even know the kid but judging from a huge majority of all of REB's writings, no, he would've never written that, because to admit that in his journal would make feel weak and inferior, which is everything that he created the persona of REB not to be.

From what I can take of it, Eric created the persona "REB" to be a superior, super strong, non-weak bad ass. So, of course he wouldn't admit that he was being bullied in his journal. The closest he ever got to admitting it was his entry where he wrote how he hated the kids for leaving him out of everything, but even then, he felt to admit such a thing would be a sign of weakness to him and in case people have forgotten, Eric was all about the idea of natural selection - which is the survival of the fittest, the strongest. So, to admit that he was a victim of bullying would've been going against everything that involved natural selection in his mind.

Also, bullying didn't necessarily piss him off, as it did emotionally hurt and wound him, and that's the very reason why he created REB, because with REB, he could turn his hurt and wounding into pissed off anger about all the things that didn't really piss him off at all, but he was using those things as a cover for the things that was really - not so much pissing him off but wounding and hurting him emotionally. Also, when he did write that the cool people were leaving him out of things, well the bullies at Columbine, from what I heard, were the cool kids - the jocks, the popular kids, so he didn't outright mention the phrase "cool kids" but anyone from high school knows that the cool kids are usually the jocks and popular kids. Also when he said, "they constantly making fun of me", well making fun of someone is bullying. If kids are constantly making fun of another student, day in and day out, that's bullying. Bullying can be verbal or physical.

Dylan, in my opinion didn't talk about bullying that much in his journal, because to quote Dylan: "they don't bother me much, but they sure do give Eric hell." So, Dylan, while he did get bullied, it wasn't as much, it seemed as Eric. Dylan's problem was that he didn't feel accepted, he felt unhappy with his life and wanted to find love. Also like another user said, Dylan probably didn't admit it out of embarrassment that here he was this intelligent kid who was getting treated in such a way and perhaps that was embarrassing for him.

And despite the fact that the bullied graduated in 1998, but then new bullies came in, in the fall of 1999, which made Eric and Dylan's problems continue on another year. That's how high school is, the bullying doesn't stop because the senior bullies graduate. That just allows the sophomore teens to become seniors and then they become bullies. That's how high school works, speaking from experience.

However, I'm sure you're going to disagree with all of this, so it is what it is, but I believe you're wrong in your assumptions on them being bullied.

42099_4EVA wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

I wrote about this may times. There was bullying in Columbine, especially in 97 and 98'. A huge amount of kids from all sorts of backgrounds and cliques at some point felt prey to the bullies of "class of 98 jocks". If you read the interviews in Larkin's book, the vast majority of the school hated the 98' jocks, especially Hoffschneider.

Dylan and Eric probably weren't spared, but there's also no evidence that they were especially singled out. By all information, the jewish kids were the ones that were the targests of the worst bullying (Note: Nobody in school knew Dylan was part Jewish, even Eric didn't know up to a point). Certainly bullying was a bigger deal for Brooks than it was for Eric and Dylan.

Also, the jocks of 98' had already graduated. The bullyign situation vastly improved since. If bullying was their reason, then this should make E&D less homicidal in 1999 than they were in 1998, but this certainly ins't the case.

Dylan and especially Eric in his diary are pretty blunt about what pisses them off most and why the shooting will occur. Neither mention bullying, but that doesn't stop Eric from complaining about a lot of more embarassing stuff - that his friends don't invite him to cool events, that he can't pick up girls, that a loser like Walsh caught him and that he feels scrawny etc.


The supporters of the bullying theory keep saying that "the fact that he didn't write about bullying is the best proof that he was bullied". That's wrong and in my opinion just proves how little they understand Eric. If bullying really were a major factor for Eric, he would write and rant and rave about it, as he does about everything and everyone that pisses him off.

No, I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you here. A majority of Eric's journal writings were written as REB, REB being the bad ass, "I hate everything and don't fuck with me or I'll blow you away" type of persona, so to write:

"they keep bullying me, pushing me into lockers, dousing me with ketchup covered tampons, etc, and it hurts, it hurts my feelings so much. I just want them to stop."

No, that wasn't REB's way, I don't even know the kid but judging from a huge majority of all of REB's writings, no, he would've never written that, because to admit that in his journal would make feel weak and inferior, which is everything that he created the persona of REB not to be.

From what I can take of it, Eric created the persona "REB" to be a superior, super strong, non-weak bad ass. So, of course he wouldn't admit that he was being bullied in his journal. The closest he ever got to admitting it was his entry where he wrote how he hated the kids for leaving him out of everything, but even then, he felt to admit such a thing would be a sign of weakness to him and in case people have forgotten, Eric was all about the idea of natural selection - which is the survival of the fittest, the strongest. So, to admit that he was a victim of bullying would've been going against everything that involved natural selection in his mind.

Also, bullying didn't necessarily piss him off, as it did emotionally hurt and wound him, and that's the very reason why he created REB, because with REB, he could turn his hurt and wounding into pissed off anger about all the things that didn't really piss him off at all, but he was using those things as a cover for the things that was really - not so much pissing him off but wounding and hurting him emotionally. Also, when he did write that the cool people were leaving him out of things, well the bullies at Columbine, from what I heard, were the cool kids - the jocks, the popular kids, so he didn't outright mention the phrase "cool kids" but anyone from high school knows that the cool kids are usually the jocks and popular kids. Also when he said, "they constantly making fun of me", well making fun of someone is bullying. If kids are constantly making fun of another student, day in and day out, that's bullying. Bullying can be verbal or physical.

Dylan, in my opinion didn't talk about bullying that much in his journal, because to quote Dylan: "they don't bother me much, but they sure do give Eric hell." So, Dylan, while he did get bullied, it wasn't as much, it seemed as Eric. Dylan's problem was that he didn't feel accepted, he felt unhappy with his life and wanted to find love. Also like another user said, Dylan probably didn't admit it out of embarrassment that here he was this intelligent kid who was getting treated in such a way and perhaps that was embarrassing for him.

And despite the fact that the bullied graduated in 1998, but then new bullies came in, in the fall of 1999, which made Eric and Dylan's problems continue on another year. That's how high school is, the bullying doesn't stop because the senior bullies graduate. That just allows the sophomore teens to become seniors and then they become bullies. That's how high school works, speaking from experience.

However, I'm sure you're going to disagree with all of this, so it is what it is, but I believe you're wrong in your assumptions on them being bullied.

I agree and in the 11k there are people who state they were bullied AND how can anyone disagree with people like Susan, Nate, Brooks, Devon and Chad who actually knew them and interacted and cared about them for years saying they were bullied. It also didn't magically stop when Rocky and their crew left. Feeling bullied, ostracized and isolated still happened.

Also it is true, after a while Eric did hold onto his Reb persona, he even states "the weird looking Eric kid' Dylan also distances himself from Dylan in his journal saying  something to the affect of "what happened to Dylan Benett Klebold" Reb is not going to talk so much about bullying (even though he does mention it in the journals a bit) Reb does not take shit from anyone. Reb is powerful.

I just don't know how someone can dispute the evidence laid out. Are Chad, Brooks, Devon, Dylan's mom, Susan and a multitude of other people in the 11k lying? Are the people I know who went to Columbine at that time and know people involved lying? Is EVERYONE lying????

Screamingophelia wrote:

42099_4EVA wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

I wrote about this may times. There was bullying in Columbine, especially in 97 and 98'. A huge amount of kids from all sorts of backgrounds and cliques at some point felt prey to the bullies of "class of 98 jocks". If you read the interviews in Larkin's book, the vast majority of the school hated the 98' jocks, especially Hoffschneider.

Dylan and Eric probably weren't spared, but there's also no evidence that they were especially singled out. By all information, the jewish kids were the ones that were the targests of the worst bullying (Note: Nobody in school knew Dylan was part Jewish, even Eric didn't know up to a point). Certainly bullying was a bigger deal for Brooks than it was for Eric and Dylan.

Also, the jocks of 98' had already graduated. The bullyign situation vastly improved since. If bullying was their reason, then this should make E&D less homicidal in 1999 than they were in 1998, but this certainly ins't the case.

Dylan and especially Eric in his diary are pretty blunt about what pisses them off most and why the shooting will occur. Neither mention bullying, but that doesn't stop Eric from complaining about a lot of more embarassing stuff - that his friends don't invite him to cool events, that he can't pick up girls, that a loser like Walsh caught him and that he feels scrawny etc.


The supporters of the bullying theory keep saying that "the fact that he didn't write about bullying is the best proof that he was bullied". That's wrong and in my opinion just proves how little they understand Eric. If bullying really were a major factor for Eric, he would write and rant and rave about it, as he does about everything and everyone that pisses him off.

No, I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you here. A majority of Eric's journal writings were written as REB, REB being the bad ass, "I hate everything and don't fuck with me or I'll blow you away" type of persona, so to write:

"they keep bullying me, pushing me into lockers, dousing me with ketchup covered tampons, etc, and it hurts, it hurts my feelings so much. I just want them to stop."

No, that wasn't REB's way, I don't even know the kid but judging from a huge majority of all of REB's writings, no, he would've never written that, because to admit that in his journal would make feel weak and inferior, which is everything that he created the persona of REB not to be.

From what I can take of it, Eric created the persona "REB" to be a superior, super strong, non-weak bad ass. So, of course he wouldn't admit that he was being bullied in his journal. The closest he ever got to admitting it was his entry where he wrote how he hated the kids for leaving him out of everything, but even then, he felt to admit such a thing would be a sign of weakness to him and in case people have forgotten, Eric was all about the idea of natural selection - which is the survival of the fittest, the strongest. So, to admit that he was a victim of bullying would've been going against everything that involved natural selection in his mind.

Also, bullying didn't necessarily piss him off, as it did emotionally hurt and wound him, and that's the very reason why he created REB, because with REB, he could turn his hurt and wounding into pissed off anger about all the things that didn't really piss him off at all, but he was using those things as a cover for the things that was really - not so much pissing him off but wounding and hurting him emotionally. Also, when he did write that the cool people were leaving him out of things, well the bullies at Columbine, from what I heard, were the cool kids - the jocks, the popular kids, so he didn't outright mention the phrase "cool kids" but anyone from high school knows that the cool kids are usually the jocks and popular kids. Also when he said, "they constantly making fun of me", well making fun of someone is bullying. If kids are constantly making fun of another student, day in and day out, that's bullying. Bullying can be verbal or physical.

Dylan, in my opinion didn't talk about bullying that much in his journal, because to quote Dylan: "they don't bother me much, but they sure do give Eric hell." So, Dylan, while he did get bullied, it wasn't as much, it seemed as Eric. Dylan's problem was that he didn't feel accepted, he felt unhappy with his life and wanted to find love. Also like another user said, Dylan probably didn't admit it out of embarrassment that here he was this intelligent kid who was getting treated in such a way and perhaps that was embarrassing for him.

And despite the fact that the bullied graduated in 1998, but then new bullies came in, in the fall of 1999, which made Eric and Dylan's problems continue on another year. That's how high school is, the bullying doesn't stop because the senior bullies graduate. That just allows the sophomore teens to become seniors and then they become bullies. That's how high school works, speaking from experience.

However, I'm sure you're going to disagree with all of this, so it is what it is, but I believe you're wrong in your assumptions on them being bullied.

I agree and in the 11k there are people who state they were bullied AND how can anyone disagree with people like Susan, Nate, Brooks, Devon and Chad who actually knew them and interacted and cared about them for years saying they were bullied. It also didn't magically stop when Rocky and their crew left. Feeling bullied, ostracized and isolated still happened.

Also it is true, after a while Eric did hold onto his Reb persona, he even states "the weird looking Eric kid' Dylan also distances himself from Dylan in his journal saying  something to the affect of "what happened to Dylan Benett Klebold" Reb is not going to talk so much about bullying (even though he does mention it in the journals a bit) Reb does not take shit from anyone. Reb is powerful.

I just don't know how someone can dispute the evidence laid out. Are Chad, Brooks, Devon, Dylan's mom, Sue and a multitude of other people in the 11k lying? Are the people I know who went to Columbine at that time and know people involved lying? Is EVERYONE lying????

Exactly, perfectly, well said.

Screamingophelia wrote:

A majority of Eric's journal writings were written as REB, REB being the bad ass, "I hate everything and don't fuck with me or I'll blow you away" type of persona, so to write:

"they keep bullying me, pushing me into lockers, dousing me with ketchup covered tampons, etc, and it hurts, it hurts my feelings so much. I just want them to stop."

No, that wasn't REB's way, I don't even know the kid but judging from a huge majority of all of REB's writings, no, he would've never written that, because to admit that in his journal would make feel weak and inferior, which is everything that he created the persona of REB not to be. From what I can take of it, Eric created the persona "REB" to be a superior, super strong, non-weak bad ass.

In his writing Eric goes on "power-trip" fantasies and "rape sex" fantasies, as well as professes to hate people, be more self-aware and so on. But it is a myth that his writings are just about creating a superman-rambo fake persona. If you look in Eric's journal/diary he writes quite a few things that are embarassing or self-bashing. Eric isn't afraid to write things that make him seem like a loser or weak.

Here's a few quotes from him to show what I mean:

E.Harris wrote:

- you people could have shown more respect, treated me better, asked for my knowledge or guidence more, treated me more like senior, and maybe I wouldn't have been as ready to tear your fucking heads off. then again, I have always hated how I looked, I make fun of people who look like me, sometimes without even thinking sometimes just because I want to rip on myself. Thats where a lot of my hate grows from, the fact that I have practically no selfesteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. (...)

- why the fuck cant I get any? (...)

- If people would give me more compliments all of this might still be avoidable... but probably not. Whatever I do people make fun of me, and sometimes directly to my face (...)

- I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't fucking say, "well thats your fault" because it isnt, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no no dont let the weird looking Eric KID come along, ohh fucking nooo. (...)

The frustration and focus on the fact that people should ask for his "guidance", "knowledge" and compliment him - these are narcissistic elements. However a narcissist would likely not write down things like he did (even if he might experience them).
While what little we heard about the basement tapes might suggest that E&D are trying to present (or at least exaggerate) some sort of "angry strong superman" image on video, I see their writings as more sincererly expressing what was going on in their minds.
They were aiming for the tapes to be propaganda pieces for an audience, while the writings were mostly for themselves.

Screamingophelia wrote:

So, of course he wouldn't admit that he was being bullied in his journal.

Perhaps he wouldn't write it. But is is wrong to conclude something like: "He didn't write about bullying, which is proof he was preoccupied with bullying".

Screamingophelia wrote:

The closest he ever got to admitting it was his entry where he wrote how he hated the kids for leaving him out of everything

I think he made it perfectly clear that tis part (and the previous ones where he complains about not being asked for guidance) is not aimed at jocks and bullies who push him around. This isn't about jocks or bullies, this is about Eric complaining about his friends. Complaining about people whose company he enjoys and would like to hang around with. And his complaint in simple words is: "You are not giving me all the reverence and respect that I deserve".

I think there is a very fine line between Eric claiming that his friends should show him all the respect he deserves and Eric claiming that he is being bullied.

Quote :

Also, when he did write that the cool people were leaving him out of things, well the bullies at Columbine, from what I heard, were the cool kids - the jocks, the popular kids, so he didn't outright mention the phrase "cool kids" but anyone from high school knows that the cool kids are usually the jocks and popular kids.

So are you saying that Eric didn't really want to hang out with Chris and Dylan and instead preferred to hang out with the jocks? I find this very questionable.

Would it make sense for you to go up to your own HS bullies/jocks and say: "Oh you guys in the white hats, you should ask for my guidance and my knowledge more. And invite me to your cool all-jock party when I give you my phone #"? I don't think so.

Given that Hoffshneider made the top of the hate list of Dylan and Eric (and probably many other people's hate lists), I think its more than fair to assume that Eric would not want to go to a party made by Hoffschneider and the jocks. Or even the 99' class jocks. This whole rant isn't about jocks or bullies, this is about Eric complaining about his friends. Complaining about people whose company he enjoys and would like to hang around with. And his complaint in simple words is: "You are not giving me all the reverence and respect that I deserve".

I think there is a very fine line between Eric claiming that his friends should show him all the respect he deserves and Eric claiming that he is being bullied.

Quote :

Also, bullying didn't necessarily piss him off, as it did emotionally hurt and wound him, and that's the very reason why he created REB, because with REB, he could turn his hurt and wounding into pissed off anger about all the things that didn't really piss him off at all, but he was using those things as a cover for the things that was really - not so much pissing him off but wounding and hurting him emotionally.

Well, that is a lot of speculation for which I don't see much evidence. Why would you point to bullying as the cause? Eric doesn't write about bullying and doesn't seem to be preoccupied with it.

He is preoccupied about schools, jobs etc "smothering out human nature". He is preoccupied with not being as respected and admired as he deserves. He is preoccupied with trying to opt out of society so he does not go " headdown the stream of life with all the other fuckers of your type". He is preoccupied with killing "retards" and what is more he goes on to kill special needs kids during the shooting.

We should focus on what Eric and Dylan write about and what they really do. Not about things they barely mention.

The only creative piece that I'm aware where the theme of bullying is introduced is "Hitmen for Hire" (which is a group project and E&D are not the sole authors btw). In "Hitmen" the bullying victom is portrayed in a negative, mocking light with a high pitched squeaky voice and E&D's characters decide to kill him at the end of the film.


This is my long take on it. There's numerous issues that E&D write about and Eric at least is very clear and open about things/people/institutions he hates and isn't shy to name them. Bullying is not there, but many people go on to say it was a more important cause of the shooting than all the things E&D do mention.

I don't buy that.

Ok no, when you say he wrote:

---

you people could have shown more respect, treated me better, asked for my knowledge or guidence more, treated me more like senior, and maybe I wouldn't have been as ready to tear your fucking heads off.

---

You say that's narcissistic, whatever, if that's narcissistic, then I guess I'm an absolute narcissistic then because where ever I go and whomever I'm around, I demand their respect and for me, it makes me feel damn good when I'm not just someone's friend or acquaintance but also if they do come to me for knowledge and guidance. So I don;t know what you're even talking about there. However that right there was one of the few times where yeah, he did write in "Eric" mode, such as what he wrote below:

---

then again, I have always hated how I looked, I make fun of people who look like me, sometimes without even thinking sometimes just because I want to rip on myself. Thats where a lot of my hate grows from, the fact that I have practically no selfesteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. (...)


- why the fuck cant I get any? (...)

- If people would give me more compliments all of this might still be avoidable... but probably not. Whatever I do people make fun of me, and sometimes directly to my face (...)

- I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't fucking say, "well thats your fault" because it isnt, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no no dont let the weird looking Eric KID come along, ohh fucking nooo. (...)

---

Then you say the following:

---

I think he made it perfectly clear that this part (and the previous ones where he complains about not being asked for guidance) is not aimed at jocks and bullies who push him around. This isn't about jocks or bullies, this is about Eric complaining about his friends. Complaining about people whose company he enjoys and would like to hang around with. And his complaint in simple words is: "You are not giving me all the reverence and respect that I deserve".

I think there is a very fine line between Eric claiming that his friends should show him all the respect he deserves and Eric claiming that he is being bullied.

---

Eric was complaining about friends? What friends? The only friend he had was Dylan and then Dylan's friends became Eric's friends and who's to say that even his own friends were bullying him too, because that happens in high school as well. Your friends are friends with you but even in their own way, they bully you as well, but take it and accept it because you know friends who sometimes/often times bully you are better than no friends at all.

Moving on, when I said:

---

Also, when he did write that the cool people were leaving him out of things, well the bullies at Columbine, from what I heard, were the cool kids - the jocks, the popular kids, so he didn't outright mention the phrase "cool kids" but anyone from high school knows that the cool kids are usually the jocks and popular kids.

---

You replied:

---

So are you saying that Eric didn't really want to hang out with Chris and Dylan and instead preferred to hang out with the jocks? Suspect I find this very questionable.

Would it make sense for you to go up to your own HS bullies/jocks and say: "Oh you guys in the white hats, you should ask for my guidance and my knowledge more. And invite me to your cool all-jock party when I give you my phone #"? I don't think so.

---

No, Eric - from what I can gather, didn't want to not hang out with Chris and Dylan, but it wouldn't have hurt to have hung out with the popular kids too, to be accepted. That's what I meant. And when Eric said they didn't ask for guidance and knowledge from him, well perhaps he felt he he was talking about his friends but not inviting him to parties and not calling him, I will always believe he was talking about the cool, popular kids. The popular kids would invite others teens he knew to parties and call them but not him. In fact, I remember one friend of Dylan's once saying that they (Dylan's friends) mostly hung out at Dylan's house but not Eric's house so much.

So, going back to what I said above, how do we know that Eric's friends (by association with Dylan) weren't bullying Eric as well? Because again, your own friends can be your bullies as well. Hell, Dylan's brother used to make fun of him a lot, according to Dylan (making fun of someone is a mild form of bullying, but to the victim often times however, it can feel like a severe form of bullying in their mind). So who's to say that wasn't the case and that's why Eric wrote that particular statement?

Then you say:

---

Given that Hoffshneider made the top of the hate list of Dylan and Eric (and probably many other people's hate lists), I think its more than fair to assume that Eric would not want to go to a party made by Hoffschneider and the jocks. Or even the 99' class jocks.

---

Um, I wouldn't either. If I've tried for months to be accepted and liked at Columbine and for those same months, Hoffshneider and other jocks treated me like shit, then hell yes, they would then make it to the top of my hate list as well, and no I wouldn't want to go to any kind of party they might have later invited me too either. I mean c'mon, let's be logical here. I don't think the jocks just got on Eric and Dylan's hate list from day one though, nor do I think Eric and Dylan hated the jocks from day one, they probably started out being, "this is high school, I'm going to be liked, I'm going to be accepted and hell, maybe even popular", and then it just all went to hell from a few days later or weeks later onward, but I don't think Eric & Dylan hated them and had them on their list from the very beginning, because that wouldn't make sense, that would mean Eric and Dylan just hated them without reason, which then would mean they're just killers without a reason, without a purpose and sorry, I just don't believe that.

Then you say the following:

---

Well, that is a lot of speculation for which I don't see much evidence. Why would you point to bullying as the cause? Eric doesn't write about bullying and doesn't seem to be preoccupied with it.

---

So, in order for there to be proof that bullying is happening to a person, they have to write about it or speak out on it? With all due respect, that's bull, I'm sorry. A LOT of people - teens and adults are bullied everyday and they never talk about it or write about it. Instead, because that's the most painful part of their lives, they will talk about or write about everything but that, and again, I'm not saying this without knowledge, I'm saying this from experience. Bullying is a very, very, very painful thing to talk about. Who knows? Maybe Eric didn't write about it or even talk about it publicly, because had he did, it would've brought him to an emotional breakdown that he wouldn't have been able to mentally nor emotionally recover from (something which I've seen happen to a few teens who have endured bullying) and Eric didn't want to experience that type of breakdown, so he avoided talking about that particular part of his life because it was just too goddamn painful.

So, he only talked about the parts where he was just left out of things and not invited anywhere and where he just simply was made fun of, because for some people, bullying leaves just as mentally and emotionally painful an impression as someone who has endured physical and/or sexual child abuse and for victims of physical/sexual child abuse, they have an extremely hard time talking about the deep, in depth details of their physical/sexual child abuse, but they will hint around to it or mention the light parts of their abuse, but they wouldn't go into the deeper, severe parts of it because it would be just too painful for them. So, who's to say that isn't the case with Eric & Dylan.


And then also, as Screaming said, several people backed up the fact that Eric, and Dylan were bullied and so they all can't be lying. I wholeheartedly believe them, high school can be a horrible, horrible place and despite contrary popular belief, bullying in high school can be a son of a bitch, I mean it can be really horrible and can drive you to a really dark place, and even though it's only a movie, the film Charlie Bartlett reminded me of that recently.


But I must say say, that one thing I notice from you is that, you seem to feel like Eric and Dylan were conscienceless, Charles Mansons, who were nothing but evil incarnate....Why is that?

And I don't think anyone is saying bullying was an excuse or that Eric and Dylan were tortured every school day. However to say it didn't happen even though there is proof or that because they had friends (especially Dylan) they couldn't be or feel like outcasts is incorrect.

I think the toxic environment on top of a myriad of other issues caused Columbine.

Screamingophelia wrote:

And I don't think anyone is saying bullying was an excuse or that Eric and Dylan were tortured every school day. However to say it didn't happen even though there is proof or that because they had friends (especially Dylan) they couldn't be or feel like outcasts is incorrect.

I think the toxic environment on top of a myriad of other issues caused Columbine.

Exactly, I'm sure some days, Eric and Dylan went to school and things were great, then other days, it was pure hell. However they were bullied, no one can deny that, based on the obvious evidence from numerous fellow students, and in my opinion, bullying was one of the top factors for why they did what they did. It's not the only factor but I believe it was the top one.

Sabratha wrote:

They were aiming for the tapes to be propaganda pieces for an audience, while the writings were mostly for themselves.

I agree in terms of Dylan's journal and I disagree about Eric's journal. There were at least a few times when Eric directly addressed the public.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

A few of the quotes where he justifies killing are in that post but he started in his first entry.

Quote :

I know I will die soon, so will you and everyone else.

people say it is immoral to follow others, they say be a leader. Well here is a fuckin news flash for you stupid shits, everyone is a follower!

Hey try this sometime, when someone tells you something, ask “why?” eventually they will be stumped and can’t answer any more. That’s because they only know what they need to know in society and school.  

He even tried to justify his bad spelling because he knew that he was terrible at it and his journal was going to be read by the public.

Quote :

and BTW spelling is stupid unless I say, I say spell it how it sounds, it’s the fuckin easiest way!  

Most people don't tell their journal "BTW, sorry for the bad spelling!" or even "BTW, spelling doesn't matter!"

I don't think his entire journal was contrived but he certainly wrote it knowing that others would read it and as a result, it was probably always a consideration in deciding what he would write.

Quote :

So, in order for there to be proof that bullying is happening to a person, they have to write about it or speak out on it?

Not at all. Moreover I do think it is probable that E&D faced some bullying from the jocks, especially in 98. It wouldn't be an uncommon experience for most CHS sophomores in 1998 from what I gather. At the sme time, I don't see much evidence that E&D were bullied more extensively or more persistently than most other sophomores. Certainly not more than the Jewish kids (BTW, the "Heil Hitler" shouts might have been a way E&D themselves contributed the the bullying of the jewsih kids). E&D were not preoccupied with bullying, while in contrast Brooks Brown for example clearly was preoccupied with it.

I question if bullying was really a major factor for E&D and a major reason behind the shooting. I do not see evidence of that. They don't mention it, and yet they do mention other factors that they (Eric is more clear than Dylan) point to as the reasons.
I think we do need to listen to what they say and treat their words seriously. I'm entirely convinced that Dylan did care a lot about the halycon and did see other people as the "zombies". I am sure Eric did care a lot about what he believed to be "human nature" and he was in fact highly dissatisfied and hostile to the society in which he lived.

Those are the major factors behind the shooting and this is what they write about. This is what they were preoccupied with.

Quote :

Eric was complaining about friends? What friends?

That's a very good question.

It is clearly someone he knows, spends time with and would enjoy being invited by. Doesn't sound like the jocks who made his hate list. I can only venture a guess that he might be writing about the crew connected with Chris Morris and Joe Stair. Or maybe Becca Heins and her circle. Or (maybe most likely) the girls from Blackjack and the business next door, he seems to have been fond of them but never really got around to be close friends with.
I do get an impression that he is referring to girls in that last part of the journal (the "weird Eric kid" makes me think he's referring to male-female interaction). Its just that when teenagers think that girls don't treat them seriously, they often use terms like: "They think I'm just a kid" or "they probably think I'm weird/creepy". Its the "weird Eric kid" wording that makes me suspect he is writing about girls here.

Of course this is just speculation on my part. I don't have any more evidence than anyone else.

It might have been some other group of people, some sort of unknown "cool kids" that you mention. One thing I'm sure is that it is not the jocks and not some sort of other bully group. I think Eric makes at least that perfectly clear.

I don't think Nate, Chris or Joe bullied Eric. Certainly nobody I read or seen interviews with ever mentioned anything to that extent. Did they make some sort of fun of him? Possibly. Watching their vids (morning ritual etc), I get an impression that Nate and Dylan were the sort of people who made fun of everything, including their friends and themselves. But this is pretty much just speculation on both my and your part. We weren't there.

Quote :

A LOT of people - teens and adults are bullied everyday and they never talk about it or write about it. Instead, because that's the most painful part of their lives, they will talk about or write about everything but that, and again, I'm not saying this without knowledge, I'm saying this from experience.

Yeah, I think that last part is the point. I believe you are falsely projecting your own experiences and emotions onto E&D. You are very familiar with your own (normal) thought process and thus you infer that E&D had the same sources of anger and rage, just stronger than your own.

I would venture to state that this is wrong. There are huge amounts of people who go through bullying in school (I went through some myself back in the day btw), but almost none of them shoot up their school. This is not a normal reaction for almost everyone.

School shootings are rare occurences and moreover school shooters differ greatly from one another, incluyding in their motivations. With Eric and Dylan (who in comparison to many other shooters seemed to have been quite well adapted), I do not think we are likely to find any answers if we look at the things they had in common with millions of other teenagers. We need to look at the things that made them unique,m that made them stand apart. Because a spree killing is a unique event, the shooter does set himself apart from pretty much everyone else.

To sum that whole part up: What is the initial reason that made you think bullying was a major factor? Bullying doesn't feature prominently in E&D's writing, nor in the reported contents of the basement tapes. "Hitmen for Hire" is even dismissive about the victims of bullying and mocks the victim character.

So if the evidence for bullying as a major cause is not coming from E&D, where is it coming from? It is not a major theme in what they write, say or otherwise produce - what's the evidence that started you on the whole "bullying is one of the major causes" track?

What makes me think bullying was a major factor? Well what makes me think that is the fact that day one, week one, month one, when they started Columbine, they were nothing like they were when they died. Eric and Dylan both were preppy and called goth kids (the same goth kids they turned out to be later themselves - dress wise) "devil kids", some even said they were good little christian boys. So what happened from 9th grade to 11th and 12 grade? Something within that school and within Denver Colorado had to set them off, had to trigger them into wanting to kill all. I don't think - no, I know they weren't born that way. You can read their backgrounds and tell they weren't born killers like Dahmer, like Manson, or like the Night Stalker, something turned them that way and I will always and forever believe those Columbine kids from 98 and 99 had a helping hand into making Eric and Dylan feel rage towards them.

I will take the word of the numerous, numerous people who said that they were bullied over someone's opinion based on what Eric and Dylan did and didn't show/ or write in their journals, I'm sorry. These teens had a hell of a lot of hurt and pain in them and I am willing to bet my entire life savings that had 4-20-99 never happened and had Eric and Dylan sat in front of someone like Iyanla Vazant or someone like her and really went deep into their talking about the bullying they faced at school, I mean if they were pushed really deep into talking about it, we would've seen two, entirely different teens than the ones we read about in their journals. I don't think we would've seen "REB" and "VoDKa", I think we would've seen two, extremely emotional and traumatized young teens, pouring out all of that emotion on a grand scale and then we would've all seen just how much hurt and pain was within them.

42099_4EVA wrote:

What makes me think bullying was a major factor? Well what makes me think that is the fact that day one, week one, month one, when they started Columbine, they were nothing like they were when they died. Eric and Dylan both were preppy and called goth kids (the same goth kids they turned out to be later themselves - dress wise) "devil kids", some even said they were good little christian boys. So what happened from 9th grade to 11th and 12 grade? Something within that school and within Denver Colorado had to set them off, had to trigger them into wanting to kill all. I don't think - no, I know they weren't born that way. You can read their backgrounds and tell they weren't born killers like Dahmer, like Manson, or like the Night Stalker, something turned them that way and I will always and forever believe those Columbine kids from 98 and 99 had a helping hand into making Eric and Dylan feel rage towards them.

I will take the word of the numerous, numerous people who said that they were bullied over someone's opinion based on what Eric and Dylan did and didn't show/ or write in their journals, I'm sorry. These teens had a hell of a lot of hurt and pain in them and I am willing to bet my entire life savings that had 4-20-99 never happened and had Eric and Dylan sat in front of someone like Iyanla Vazant or someone like her and really went deep into their talking about the bullying they faced at school, I mean if they were pushed really deep into talking about it, we would've seen two, entirely different teens than the ones we read about in their journals. I don't think we would've seen "REB" and "VoDKa", I think we would've seen two, extremely emotional and traumatized young teens, pouring out all of that emotion on a grand scale and then we would've all seen just how much hurt and pain was within them.

I agree
I am going to go with the information that I have and say bullying was it contributing factor. Because you cannot push someone every day and expect it to be OK. Especially when there’s other mitigating factors.

I don’t think bullying was the only cause of parkland But you better believe that people like Emma Gonzalez contributed to the problem. Not an excuse or justification of course


I am going to go with the information that I have and say bullying was it contributing factor. Because you cannot push someone every day and expect it to be OK. Especially when there’s other mitigating factors.


Also bullying can be different for everyone. What one person can brush aside another person will take it to heart and it will hurt them. Everyone is different

I don’t understand why this is an argument there a clear pieces of evidence to prove that there was bullying. I don’t know why it is so hard for you to believe that they were Sabartha.

Screamingophelia wrote:

42099_4EVA wrote:

What makes me think bullying was a major factor? Well what makes me think that is the fact that day one, week one, month one, when they started Columbine, they were nothing like they were when they died. Eric and Dylan both were preppy and called goth kids (the same goth kids they turned out to be later themselves - dress wise) "devil kids", some even said they were good little christian boys. So what happened from 9th grade to 11th and 12 grade? Something within that school and within Denver Colorado had to set them off, had to trigger them into wanting to kill all. I don't think - no, I know they weren't born that way. You can read their backgrounds and tell they weren't born killers like Dahmer, like Manson, or like the Night Stalker, something turned them that way and I will always and forever believe those Columbine kids from 98 and 99 had a helping hand into making Eric and Dylan feel rage towards them.

I will take the word of the numerous, numerous people who said that they were bullied over someone's opinion based on what Eric and Dylan did and didn't show/ or write in their journals, I'm sorry. These teens had a hell of a lot of hurt and pain in them and I am willing to bet my entire life savings that had 4-20-99 never happened and had Eric and Dylan sat in front of someone like Iyanla Vazant or someone like her and really went deep into their talking about the bullying they faced at school, I mean if they were pushed really deep into talking about it, we would've seen two, entirely different teens than the ones we read about in their journals. I don't think we would've seen "REB" and "VoDKa", I think we would've seen two, extremely emotional and traumatized young teens, pouring out all of that emotion on a grand scale and then we would've all seen just how much hurt and pain was within them.

I agree
I am going to go with the information that I have and say bullying was it contributing factor. Because you cannot push someone every day and expect it to be OK. Especially when there’s other mitigating factors.

I don’t think bullying was the only cause of parkland But you better believe that people like Emma Gonzalez contributed to the problem. Not an excuse or justification of course


I am going to go with the information that I have and say bullying was it contributing factor. Because you cannot push someone every day and expect it to be OK. Especially when there’s other mitigating factors.


Also  bullying can be different for everyone. What one person can brush aside another person will take it to heart and it will hurt them. Everyone is different

I don’t understand why this is an argument there a clear pieces of evidence  to prove that there was bullying. I don’t know why it is so hard for you to believe that they were Sabartha.

Exactly my four years of high school bullying and six years of elementary school bullying, sure did fuck up my mental and emotional state a hell of a lot, and I'm sure it did the same to E&D, which is why they turned into who they were. So, perfectly said [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].

GOOD GRIEF! Took me a second to read through all that! Also just want to say that everyone made some very good points.

BUT it was well known that bullying at Columbine was happening. There in no question that Eric and Dylan were being bullied, there is also no question that Eric and Dylan did their fair share of bullying as well. It's the well known "Trickle down" effect, or as I like to say, shit usually rolls down hill.

Eric and Dylan were picked on. End of story. One girl was pushed around for simply being seen talking to them. The members of the TCM were frequent targets as well. They had issues with the jocks all the time. This is well documented and was just something everyone within the school generally knew was going on.

Too many former students, parents, staff, etc. have said the same thing. Columbine was just a very fucked up school. Even after the attack, students said that it didn't take very long before the bullying started again. That alone says a lot in my opinion.

Eric and Dylan had other things going on in their lives, including some mental issues. But the bullying was indeed part of their shared problems.

42099_4EVA wrote:

You can read their backgrounds and tell they weren't born killers like Dahmer, like Manson, or like the Night Stalker, 

Er, I'd argue that those people weren't really born killers either. Dahmer in particular was relentlessly bullied at school, had neglectful parents, and was gay in a time period where coming out would paint a huge target on your back. He was even somewhat remorseful for his crimes and didn't fight back when another inmate began beating him to death.

QuestionMark wrote:

42099_4EVA wrote:

You can read their backgrounds and tell they weren't born killers like Dahmer, like Manson, or like the Night Stalker, 

Er, I'd argue that those people weren't really born killers either. Dahmer in particular was relentlessly bullied at school, had neglectful parents, and was gay in a time period where coming out would paint a huge target on your back. He was even somewhat remorseful for his crimes and didn't fight back when another inmate began beating him to death.

This is close to becoming a Nature VS Nurture debate as it is, but fuck it!

You are right. Richard didn't have the best life growing up either.

42099_4EVA wrote:

What makes me think bullying was a major factor? Well what makes me think that is the fact that day one, week one, month one, when they started Columbine, they were nothing like they were when they died. Eric and Dylan both were preppy and called goth kids (the same goth kids they turned out to be later themselves - dress wise) "devil kids", some even said they were good little christian boys. So what happened from 9th grade to 11th and 12 grade?

People change a whole lot between the ages of 14 and 19, its probably the period when you change the most from a social viewpoint. This is normal. If you don't change during your teen years in some way, then probably something is very wrong (ie: Lanza).

I think its a bit crazy to suggest that the reason someone became a goth kid is because he/she was bullied. That's certainly
not true of late 90s and early 2000s. I was a HS student myself back then. I didn't listen to metal and goth music at the age of say 12, but I was doing so at the age of 16. I started doing so in HS, but I wasn't bullied in HS at all (I was bullied for some time at the age of about 10).
I didn't dress goth, but I listened to goth music and had friends who were goth inculduing the dress. They weren;t bullied, we pretty much had no bullying in HS. Goth was a popular subculture back then in its own right, not something you contracted because you were bullied  

42099_4EVA wrote:

Something within that school and within Denver Colorado had to set them off, had to trigger them into wanting to kill all.

Obviously something did that. But where's the evidence that it was bullying in specific?

42099_4EVA wrote:

I will take the word of the numerous, numerous people who said that they were bullied

It is likely they experienced some bullying, CHS had plenty of bullying to go around. But what makes you think that those specific events of bullying in their lives were those vital things that made the shooting happen? How does bullying stand out from the other events in their life at the time?

Just a few examples:

• Eric and Dylan were caught for the van brake in and had to go through the youth program. This had an impact on them, they write about it and they are said to complain about Walsh on the tapes. What makes you think bullying was more important than that?
  
• Dylan had a bad love life (or rather lack of it) and wrote about it extensively. What makes you think bullying was more important than that?
  
• Eric hated society, he believed it is turning people into robots and destroys the innate human nature which he considered the ultimate good. What makes you think bullying was more important to him than that?
  
• By all evidence, Dylan was very strongly depressed, for a very long time and had suicidal fantasies before he teamed up with Eric. Egain, where is the evidence that bullying be more important to him than this?
  
• Dylan had issues with his family, is reported to complain on the tapes that they treat him as "the run of the litter". Dylan's brother had substance abuse issues and his parents couldn't handle that. Why do you think its bullying, not family problems that made him kill?
  
• As we know from the diary, Eric was preoccupied with other people not giving him the respect he desrves, asking him for guidance etc. He goes as far as to write that maybe the shooting would not occur if people admired and complimented him. At the same time, no mention whatsoever of bullying there.
  

There are several themes and topics where Eric and Dylan themselves are speaking or writing about. They are telling us what they care about, what pisses them off, what bothers them and what's a big issue for them.
Bullying is not a theme that they introduce and the vast majority of victims they choose during the shooting aren't jocks or bullies.

Quote :

These teens had a hell of a lot of hurt and pain in them

More like a lot of anger, depression and a willingness to share that pain with random kids at CHS via bullets. Don't get me wrong, E&D were dissatisfied with their lives and suicide was one of their goals. I'm not denying that.

But I am saying that they also had an equally strong impulse to kill and maim other kids at CHS:
Freshmen. Poetry nerds. Special needs kids. Star Wars geeks.

They didn't kill Hoffschneider, they killed people like Kelly Fleming, Kyle Velasquez, Lauren Townsend, Daniel Mauser. The sort of people who themselves were likely victims of CHS bullying.

Quote :

I think we would've seen two, extremely emotional and traumatized young teens, pouring out all of that emotion on a grand scale and then we would've all seen just how much hurt and pain was within them.

And what are you basing these conclusions on? It seems you are talking about your own pain and trauma caused by bullying. You are not talking about somethign that is coming to us from E&D.

I am talking about things that come from E&D - their writings, their behavior during the shooting.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Eric and Dylan were picked on. End of story.

CHS had a lot of bullying at at some point E&D were also pushed around. Ok, but where's the strong link between that and the shooting? What makes you think bullying was a more important cause for them than all the stuff I listed (and which they themselves write and talk about)?

There's evidence that family, society, human nature, love etc meant a whole lot to them. Where's the evidence that bullying matterd so much to them?

Sabratha wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Eric and Dylan were picked on. End of story.

CHS had a lot of bullying at at some point E&D were also pushed around. Ok, but where's the strong link between that and the shooting? What makes you think bullying was a more important cause for them than all the stuff I listed (and which they themselves write and talk about)?

There's evidence that family, society, human nature, love etc meant a whole lot to them. Where's the evidence that bullying matterd so much to them?

Ok, you picked out one tiny bit from my whole post to comment on, while the rest of my post clearly said that there were OTHER factors besides bullying that likely effected Eric and Dylan.

No where did I state that bullying was the main or only cause behind the shooting.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Eric and Dylan were picked on. End of story.

CHS had a lot of bullying at at some point E&D were also pushed around. Ok, but where's the strong link between that and the shooting? What makes you think bullying was a more important cause for them than all the stuff I listed (and which they themselves write and talk about)?

There's evidence that family, society, human nature, love etc meant a whole lot to them. Where's the evidence that bullying matterd so much to them?

Ok, you picked out one tiny bit from my whole post to comment on, while the rest of my post clearly said that there were OTHER factors besides bullying that likely effected Eric and Dylan.

No where did I state that bullying was the main or only cause behind the shooting.

Where is the evidence it didn’t.

We have a small shred of info on them in the grand scheme of their lives

It doesn’t take a PhD to think that you would be humiliated having ketchup covered tampons thrown on you and called a fag .

Shadowed is right too not one of us said bullying was the only reason

Sabratha wrote:

42099_4EVA wrote:

What makes me think bullying was a major factor? Well what makes me think that is the fact that day one, week one, month one, when they started Columbine, they were nothing like they were when they died. Eric and Dylan both were preppy and called goth kids (the same goth kids they turned out to be later themselves - dress wise) "devil kids", some even said they were good little christian boys. So what happened from 9th grade to 11th and 12 grade?

People change a whole lot between the ages of 14 and 19, its probably the period when you change the most from a social viewpoint. This is normal. If you don't change during your teen years in some way, then probably something is very wrong (ie: Lanza).

I think its a bit crazy to suggest that the reason someone became a goth kid is because he/she was bullied. That's certainly
not true of late 90s and early 2000s. I was a HS student myself back then. I didn't listen to metal and goth music at the age of say 12, but I was doing so at the age of 16. I started doing so in HS, but I wasn't bullied in HS at all (I was bullied for some time at the age of about 10).
I didn't dress goth, but I listened to goth music and had friends who were goth inculduing the dress. They weren;t bullied, we pretty much had no bullying in HS. Goth was a popular subculture back then in its own right, not something you contracted because you were bullied  

42099_4EVA wrote:

Something within that school and within Denver Colorado had to set them off, had to trigger them into wanting to kill all.

Obviously something did that. But where's the evidence that it was bullying in specific?

42099_4EVA wrote:

I will take the word of the numerous, numerous people who said that they were bullied

It is likely they experienced some bullying, CHS had plenty of bullying to go around. But what makes you think that those specific events of bullying in their lives were those vital things that made the shooting happen? How does bullying stand out from the other events in their life at the time?

Just a few examples:

• Eric and Dylan were caught for the van brake in and had to go through the youth program. This had an impact on them, they write about it and they are said to complain about Walsh on the tapes. What makes you think bullying was more important than that?
  
• Dylan had a bad love life (or rather lack of it) and wrote about it extensively. What makes you think bullying was more important than that?
  
• Eric hated society, he believed it is turning people into robots and destroys the innate human nature which he considered the ultimate good. What makes you think bullying was more important to him than that?
  
• By all evidence, Dylan was very strongly depressed, for a very long time and had suicidal fantasies before he teamed up with Eric. Egain, where is the evidence that bullying be more important to him than this?
  
• Dylan had issues with his family, is reported to complain on the tapes that they treat him as "the run of the litter". Dylan's brother had substance abuse issues and his parents couldn't handle that. Why do you think its bullying, not family problems that made him kill?
  
• As we know from the diary, Eric was preoccupied with other people not giving him the respect he desrves, asking him for guidance etc. He goes as far as to write that maybe the shooting would not occur if people admired and complimented him. At the same time, no mention whatsoever of bullying there.
  

There are several themes and topics where Eric and Dylan themselves are speaking or writing about. They are telling us what they care about, what pisses them off, what bothers them and what's a big issue for them.
Bullying is not a theme that they introduce and the vast majority of victims they choose during the shooting aren't jocks or bullies.

Quote :

These teens had a hell of a lot of hurt and pain in them

More like a lot of anger, depression and a willingness to share that pain with random kids at CHS via bullets. Don't get me wrong, E&D were dissatisfied with their lives and suicide was one of their goals. I'm not denying that.

But I am saying that they also had an equally strong impulse to kill and maim other kids at CHS:
Freshmen. Poetry nerds. Special needs kids. Star Wars geeks.

They didn't kill Hoffschneider, they killed people like Kelly Fleming, Kyle Velasquez, Lauren Townsend, Daniel Mauser. The sort of people who themselves were likely victims of CHS bullying.

Quote :

I think we would've seen two, extremely emotional and traumatized young teens, pouring out all of that emotion on a grand scale and then we would've all seen just how much hurt and pain was within them.

And what are you basing these conclusions on? It seems you are talking about your own pain and trauma caused by bullying. You are not talking about somethign that is coming to us from E&D.

I am talking about things that come from E&D - their writings, their behavior during the shooting.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Eric and Dylan were picked on. End of story.

CHS had a lot of bullying at at some point E&D were also pushed around. Ok, but where's the strong link between that and the shooting? What makes you think bullying was a more important cause for them than all the stuff I listed (and which they themselves write and talk about)?

There's evidence that family, society, human nature, love etc meant a whole lot to them. Where's the evidence that bullying matterd so much to them?

Ok, well we can agree to disagree, with all due respect, I think the reason you don't want to admit that they were bullied, is because then that makes them less of the supposedly bad people that you would like for them to be. To admit that they were bullied means to admit that they too were victims, but victims that snapped. However, despite that being the case, the evidence of the truth will never go away. They were bullied, badly, and while bullying was not the only factor at play, in my opinion, it was one of the main factors that contributed to their snapping and going all murderous.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

There's evidence that family, society, human nature, love etc meant a whole lot to them. Where's the evidence that bullying matterd so much to them?

Ok, you picked out one tiny bit from my whole post to comment on, while the rest of my post clearly said that there were OTHER factors besides bullying that likely effected Eric and Dylan.

No where did I state that bullying was the main or only cause behind the shooting.

Fair point, thanks for the clarification. Thus do not treat this as a statement directed at you. Instead just as my general opinion on the issue:

I do not see evidence that bullying was equally or more important to them than all the things they do rant, rave and write about.

42099_4EVA wrote:

Ok, well we can agree to disagree, with all due respect, I think the reason you don't want to admit that they were bullied, is because then that makes them less of the supposedly bad people that you would like for them to be.

I believe they killed a bunch of random, often weaker kids (including special needs kids) thet they barely knew because they were depressed, angry, hated the society around them and wanted to "opt out" of life. Why would it make then any less "bad people" if they would have done it because of bullying?

Counterexample:

Jeff Weise was pushed around, had a horrible childhood, lived in poverty, lost his dad to police, lost his abusive mother to alcochol. Then had to live with a grandfather who by most accounts he wasn't fond of. Maybe this does makes me feel more sorry for him than for Dylan. But does this make him any "less of a bad person" than Dylan or Eric? I don't think so.

I generally do not have a tendency to think in terms of "good vs bad". Rather, I tend to think in terms of "cause vs effect".

42099_4EVA wrote:

To admit that they were bullied means to admit that they too were victims, but victims that snapped.

For me to evaluate them as something like "victims that snapped", they would have had to go back and lash out against the offender. Making a long-term plan that involved a bomb killing many random kids at CHS would be revenge against people who dind't bully them. I wouldn't see them as victims either way in that case.

42099_4EVA wrote:

However, despite that being the case, the evidence of the truth will never go away.

What is this evidence? Where is this evidence coming from? Why is it not coming from Eric or Dylan?

To know the truth we need to go back to Eric and Dylan themselves and their beliefs. Listen to what they themselves have to say.

Lastly: This is a controversial topic for many and I admitt I can be a bloody persistant debater, but rest assured there's no hard feelings from me guys. Its better to disagree in an interesting manner with smart arguments, than having all agree without anyone saying anything of value.

Cullen's big bad guy in his book (aside from Eric) is the media. The major thrust of his book is that he's presenting you with the truth, whereas the media got it all wrong from the start, and created wrongful perceptions about what happened on 4/20/99 for years. (It is probably true that most people who only casually remember Columbine don't remember that it was a failed bombing.)

The problem is of course that he completely absolves the school and uses something that is likely only a partial truth (the Eric = psycho, Dylan = depressive thing) to explain EVERYTHING about Columbine. He said that there was plenty of evidence of bullying at CHS but no evidence that it led to murder and he also tries to construe things so that CHS was not really generally worse than most high schools in America. (If it matters, he claims that he himself was bullied, spat on, called a fag, punched, etc. in high school and that he completely supports anti-bullying programs.)

Some of his own counterarguments resemble the ones in this thread, many of them Sabratha's--"Eric and Dylan documented their grievances extensively--specific bullies were never mentioned!" is a Cullen point--but Cullen also throws out a few howlers like "why didn't they blow up a football game if they hated jocks so much?" I think it is a valid point to bring up that they did not kill the people who bullied them when they had the chance to (Evan Todd being the most obvious example).

Yet something has to be said about "Columbiners" as well--It's hard for me to believe that the overload of sympathy for E&D doesn't stem from a lot of you having terrible demons in the form of your own embarrassing high school bullying experiences, and in your attempts to claim bullying was the primary cause of the shooting, you've thrown out some howlers of your own, such as the idea that nothing Dwayne Fuselier says can be taken seriously because his kid was there that day (so?) and that Eric's hate-screaming journals, website, etc. are all just a big act. Some of you present a picture of the whole story that is probably about as accurate as "I'm Not Ashamed."

I feel bullying was a factor, but probably a slightly lesser factor, I feel the center of the mystery is E&D's personality problems, that they fed off each other and spending too much time together, regardless of how many friends they had or how many girls they did or did not talk to.

Yeah, I think there’s a lot of over analyzing in this thread. Bullying was a factor but not sole or even main factor. I believe if I were to come up with a sound reason as to why it happened I would say it happened because there were two people who had major issues with power and authority. A combination of depression and low self esteem made matters worse.

Sane One wrote:

Yeah, I think there’s a lot of over analyzing in this thread. Bullying was a factor but not sole or even main factor. I believe if I were to come up with a sound reason as to why it happened I would say it happened because there were two people who had major issues with power and authority. A combination of depression and low self esteem made matters worse.

 Agreed. I think a few kinda went in hard on this one. It does happen from time to time, but it usually ends with good reading material.

Us... over analyze... no way!!

Screamingophelia wrote:

Us... over analyze... no way!!

Sane One wrote:

Yeah, I think there’s a lot of over analyzing in this thread. Bullying was a factor but not sole or even main factor. I believe if I were to come up with a sound reason as to why it happened I would say it happened because there were two people who had major issues with power and authority. A combination of depression and low self esteem made matters worse.

I believe the environment at Columbine, including bullying, was part of the reason they had issues with authority and why they developed depression and self-esteem issues. I am curious as to why people continually point to personality flaws as if personality somehow develops in a vacuum. There is something there to begin with and Eric and Dylan had their vulnerabilities (Eric, mainly because he was constantly uprooted as a child and Dylan, mainly because he appeared to have excessive social anxiety and a tendency to ruminate) but you can't dismiss the external if you want to understand the internal. The path to mass murder is a long process with 95% of the action happening inside of a person. Most of these manifestos and statements of motive are written long after the journey started and it's difficult to get a true understanding of why someone went down that path to begin with if that's all you're going by. Not to mention the fact that many of these younger shooters don't really have great insight into their own emotional state or may not be brave enough to admit the full truth. Despite their claims to the contrary, Eric and Dylan seemed not to be very self-aware in a lot of ways but this was probably emotional immaturity mixed with self-protective coping mechanisms.

Eric and Dylan repeatedly raged against conformity and the zombie lifestyle. This can be interpreted as an acknowledgment of the bullying and ostracism that they experienced while maintaining the illusion of superiority, rather than exposing vulnerability. And I don't mean that they were performing for an audience. They were lying to themselves about how they felt because they were afraid that they really were as bottom-of-the-barrel as they were taught to believe. They framed their complaints defensively, in such a way that they were able to save face when they looked in the mirror or stepped through the doors of Columbine High School. Dylan wasn't a loser who couldn't find a girlfriend. He was a god of sadness whose pure love was waiting for him in the higher dimensions, where his insight would be appreciated rather than ridiculed. Eric wasn't an angry, petulant weirdo who nobody liked. He was a rebel with a cause and he was too aware of the truth to buy into the system. Instead of blaming themselves completely, they externalized much of their distress through aggressive and delinquent behaviors, as males are more prone to do than females.

They hated the system because the system valued everything that they were not (for what they considered to be arbitrary reasons) and it often granted special privileges to people who may not have deserved them (jock-bullies). I wonder why they had issues with authority after seeing some of the things that they saw? Bullying and other kinds of abuse do not necessarily have to be directed at someone to profoundly affect their view of the world, so if a person acknowledges that the environment at Columbine could be toxic at times, then Eric and Dylan were most likely exposed to that and affected by it, regardless of how much they were personally singled out. There's no need to argue about "how much" they were really bullied. Simply being there taught them what people are and what they value, in contrast to what they claim to be and what they say they care about.

And because Eric and Dylan's self-concept was perpetually assaulted by the community's assessment that they deserved their low status, they must have experienced a constant sense of cognitive dissonance that was terribly confusing and felt threatening or anxiety-provoking. This could have encouraged a deeper bond between them as they dug their heels in and insisted on their superiority. The massacre was their final attempt to prove it and because of the suicide, they had the last word.

In my opinion, when Eric and Dylan targeted people (for bullying and for death), they were often specifically targeting weakness because this is what the actually powerful kids in their school did. This is what they learned from Columbine. They learned not to sympathize with weakness. They distanced themselves from it because strong people have scorn for the weak and they go out of their way to prey on the vulnerable since it is their right as superior beings. They revel in this knowledge and they do what they please to anyone that they choose, without consequences. When people say that they have no sympathy for Eric and Dylan because they became the "ultimate bullies," they are right but this aspect of their behavior was absolute mimicry of the dynamic they experienced at that school. Bullying may not have been the motive behind Columbine but this is one of the main reasons why bullying matters in understanding Columbine. It shaped their behavior and their personalities as well as their beliefs about themselves, the world and what their future would look like on a fundamental level.

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

Some of his own counterarguments resemble the ones in this thread, many of them Sabratha's--"Eric and Dylan documented their grievances extensively--specific bullies were never mentioned!" is a Cullen point

Cullen is absolute anathema to most columbine researchers. I disagree with a lot of things Cullen said, but I am not afraid to agree with him when he says that water is wet.

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

I think it is a valid point to bring up that they did not kill the people who bullied them when they had the chance to (Evan Todd being the most obvious example).

Evan Todd was a sophomore in 1999, he was just 15 during the shooting. He was a 14 year old freshman in 1998 during the "Hoffschneider era".

By the interviews I rememeber, I got the impression that while people in CHS interacted with peeps 1 year older or younger than themselves, but hardly ever had close connections with people 2 years younger or more.

Of course we can't be sure, but I think all those facts make it seem highly unlikely that Todd (almost 3 years their junior) would bully E&D. For half of their CHS life, he wasn't even there. I'm also rather certain Hoffschneider wouldn't haver a freshman in his clique.

Sabratha wrote:

Given that Hoffshneider made the top of the hate list of Dylan and Eric (and probably many other people's hate lists), I think its more than fair to assume that Eric would not want to go to a party made by Hoffschneider and the jocks

I need to correct myself. My memory was playing tricks on me when i was writing this. Hoffschneider was not on top of Eric's list (in fact, the two top persons on his list were teachers). Hoffschneider was not identified on either Eric or Dylan's lists (though there are some unidentified persons on their lists, so its possible he is one of those).

Check this thread:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Taking a quick glance, the people oin this list were either teachers or students their age.

The only athlete on the list that I recognized is Kevin Hofstra (soccer team captain). As pretty much the whole soccer team, Hofstra strongly disliked the 98' jocks from the "steroid poster boys" group. Here's what he said about them:

Kevin Hofstra wrote:

"Last year there was a group of seniors who picked on everyone, not just the lowest people. Pretty much everyone was scared to take them on; if anyone said anything, they'd come after you, too. I don't think teachers realized it was serious, they just saw it as kids joking around," said Kevin Hofstra, a Yale-bound soccer team captain.

Quote comes from Larkin's interviews in his book. I am of a low opinion of Larkin and his conclusions, but I am of a very high opinion of the interviews he made with students.

NOTE: Of all the athlete groups, the soccer team comes off as the anti-hierarchy group. I'm not surprised that Eric played soccer.

Sabratha wrote:

Of course we can't be sure, but I think all those facts make it seem highly unlikely that Todd (almost 3 years their junior) would bully E&D.

Well there was definitely some sort of animosity between Evan and the duo, because Dylan mocked Evan and said "You used to call me a fag. Who's a fag now?". Maybe this was directed at jocks and bullies in general but either way there was certainly some hostility there.

QuestionMark wrote:

Dylan mocked Evan and said "You used to call me a fag. Who's a fag now?"..

I guess I forgot about that quote. Is it from the 11k witness reports?

Sabratha wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Dylan mocked Evan and said "You used to call me a fag. Who's a fag now?"..

I guess I forgot about that quote. Is it from the 11k witness reports?

IDK, it was on Wiki and in Zero Hour, I've never read the 11k.

QuestionMark wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Dylan mocked Evan and said "You used to call me a fag. Who's a fag now?"..

I guess I forgot about that quote. Is it from the 11k witness reports?

IDK, it was on Wiki and in Zero Hour, I've never read the 11k.

Which wiki? Now I'm interested, its not often that I see a columbine quote I was not familiar with.


I do have to say I just googled the exact phrase: "You used to call me a fag. Who's a fag now?" The first page of google was just tumblr accounts, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] all in all, there were 4 pages of google results. None referred to 11k or reliable columbine sites like [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

At this point, I am intrigued, but also skeptical of the veracity of the "fag quote". Acolumbinesite recalls that Dylan called Todd a "fat fuck" at least two times, but does not mention the term "fag". [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] The "fat fuck" is the version I was familiar with for years.

sscc wrote:

The path to mass murder is a long process with 95% of the action happening inside of a person. Most of these manifestos and statements of motive are written long after the journey started and it's difficult to get a true understanding of why someone went down that path to begin with if that's all you're going by. Not to mention the fact that many of these younger shooters don't really have great insight into their own emotional state or may not be brave enough to admit the full truth. Despite their claims to the contrary, Eric and Dylan seemed not to be very self-aware in a lot of ways but this was probably emotional immaturity mixed with self-protective coping mechanisms.

They indeed could be very analytic and self-aware at times, only to sound very childish and shallow two sentences down the line. I'm convinced Dylan was confused by his emotions and didn't really get down and face-to-face (despite all he wrote) with his demons.

Eric appears to behave and relate to society in ways which, despite the very simple and crude words that he uses, feel intimately familiar. At the same time, he is insecure (openly admits that) and goes through a lot of strong neurotic emotions (reportedly cries on the tapes in his car), which is personally something quite alien to me. Without seeing the tapes I cannot even guess at the nature of that scene. One extreme interpretation would be narcissism again - after all Breivik cried during his own manifesto. But maybe in Eric's case it was panic or self-pity? Again, can;t tell without seeing the tapes.

sscc wrote:

I believe the environment at Columbine, including bullying, was part of the reason they had issues with authority and why they developed depression and self-esteem issues. I am curious as to why people continually point to personality flaws as if personality somehow develops in a vacuum.

Personality does not develop in a vacuum, and I do not want to start the "nature vs nurture" debate that we all had on these forums many times over.
I'lll limit myself to saying that there's personality traits and behaviors that are modified by abuse, and there are those traits you have to be born with.

to make matters more murky, you can often arrive at an "end result" which looks the same, but has very different causes. Example: Emotional numbing can be caused by abuse suffered in kindergarten years. Or it can be something people are born with and goes through all their lives with.

sscc wrote:

Eric and Dylan repeatedly raged against conformity and the zombie lifestyle. This can be interpreted as an acknowledgment of the bullying and ostracism that they experienced while maintaining the illusion of superiority, rather than exposing vulnerability.

I'd say we are dealing with ostracism if any. The "zombie" refers to a passive acceptance of society and going through life in an ordinary, law abiding manner. Graduating. Going to church. Having a family and so on. "Going headdown the stream of life with all the other fuckers of your kind" as Eric put it.

I'd stress the passivity, conformism and bland "averageness" that E&D refer to here. Bullying is an active, agressive process. Remember that Eric's "kill the weak and dumb" later turns into Eric's "KILL MANKIND; no one should survive!". I'd say mentally, Eric is moving his self-image from that of a strongman-bully punishing the weak to a nihilist who is punishing everyone and "opting out of society" through suicide.

Both murder and suicide are inherent elements of NBK and affect both Eric and Dylan's views on life. Their personality shapes the attack plan, but the attack plan then itself shapes their personalities.

sscc wrote:

They were lying to themselves about how they felt because they were afraid that they really were as bottom-of-the-barrel as they were taught to believe. They framed their complaints defensively, in such a way that they were able to save face when they looked in the mirror or stepped through the doors of Columbine High School. Dylan wasn't a loser who couldn't find a girlfriend. He was a god of sadness whose pure love was waiting for him in the higher dimensions, where his insight would be appreciated rather than ridiculed. Eric wasn't an angry, petulant weirdo who nobody liked. He was a rebel with a cause and he was too aware of the truth to buy into the system.

After reading your first sentence, I was about to quote and say that I disagree. But after reading the whole paragraph, I must say I do strongly agree with the points you are making.

One last thing I would add - regardless if it started as self-denial, it wasn't just that. I believe by early 1999 Dylan and Eric had both fully internalized their ideologies. By that time, Dylan really became "a god of sadness" and Eric did in fact become "too aware of the truth to buy into the system".

Quote :

They hated the system because the system valued everything that they were not (for what they considered to be arbitrary reasons) and it often granted special privileges to people who may not have deserved them (jock-bullies).

Now here I will disagree. Especially when it comes to Dylan. Dylan was rich, his parent's were educated and respected liberals. He graduated to a decent college. "The system", as you put it, greatly valued people like Dylan. I'm pretty sure Dylan was smart enough to know that.

I do not think society was Dylan's big issue (I think its Eric that introduced that part to his philosophy). I think Dylan's emotions (depression) and his lack of a love life were in fact his greatest motivating factors for the murder-suicide.

sscc wrote:

I wonder why they had issues with authority after seeing some of the things that they saw? Bullying and other kinds of abuse do not necessarily have to be directed at someone to have a profound affect on their view of the world, so if a person acknowledges that the environment at Columbine could be toxic at times, then Eric and Dylan were most likely exposed to that and affected by it, regardless of how much they were personally singled out.

This I again agree with. I don't think they were singled out or that themselves being bullied was something they were greatly preoccupied with. But I am convinced that bullying, cliqishness, the constant macho shitshow between TCM and the jocks.. I imagine that this created a toxic environment which made the school bleak and miserable to them. This in turn helped them see the world as more bleak and miserable.

sscc wrote:

There's no need to argue about "how much" they were really bullied. Simply being there taught them what people are and what they value, in contrast to what they claim to be and what they say they care about.

Aye, agreed.

sscc wrote:

In my opinion, when Eric and Dylan targeted people (for bullying and for death), they were often specifically targeting weakness because this is what the actually powerful kids in their school did. This is what they learned from Columbine. They learned not to sympathize with weakness. They distanced themselves from it because strong people have scorn for the weak and they go out of their way to prey on the vulnerable since it is their right as superior beings. They revel in this knowledge and they do what they please to anyone that they choose, without consequences.

Well, that is speculation and we have no evidence to back that interpretation up. But to me at least it sounds like sensible speculation.



Final note:
A great post by you, as usual. I can't believe I missed this when I posted my previous reply.

QuestionMark wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

Of course we can't be sure, but I think all those facts make it seem highly unlikely that Todd (almost 3 years their junior) would bully E&D.

Well there was definitely some sort of animosity between Evan and the duo, because Dylan mocked Evan and said "You used to call me a fag. Who's a fag now?". Maybe this was directed at jocks and bullies in general but either way there was certainly some hostility there.

It was in the 11k and look at the way Evan talked after??

sscc wrote:

I wonder why they had issues with authority after seeing some of the things that they saw? Bullying and other kinds of abuse do not necessarily have to be directed at someone to have a profound affect on their view of the world, so if a person acknowledges that the environment at Columbine could be toxic at times, then Eric and Dylan were most likely exposed to that and affected by it, regardless of how much they were personally singled out.

Quote :

This I again agree with. I don't think they were singled out or that themselves being bullied was something they were greatly preoccupied with. But I am convinced that bullying, cliqishness, the constant macho shitshow between TCM and the jocks.. I imagine that this created a toxic environment which made the school bleak and miserable to them. This in turn helped them see the world as more bleak and miserable.

I would say this is the best argument against Cullen's contention that bullying was not responsible--a general toxic environment that gives one a bleak, miserable, "survival of the fittest" worldview, regardless of how much bullying against E&D specifically happened. I can think of things that happened to *me* in high school that were worse than a bunch of goons throwing ketchup tampons at me and calling me a fag; you'd have to have pretty thin skin to let that make you shoot up your school. When I was 12 a great big football jock kid spent an entire 20 minute bus ride repeatedly belting me in the soft/back part of my school with his palm as hard as humanly possible, reducing me to tears in front of about 20 other guys and I was so desperate for friends back then that I later ended up trying to be friends with this kid. Teenage boys are very, very stupid and very, very immature--even the smart ones (which I was.)

I remain of the opinion myself that bullying was probably a factor, but if it was, it was a smaller factor. I remain interested in stories like those about the Hoffschneider crew and certainly agree that CHS was obsessed with sports; that said, it was also said to be a very academically strong high school, one that families specifically moved to the area to send their kids to. Which would make it different than most Midwestern high schools which as far as I can tell (I'm from Kansas) are day care centers for athletes at best and McDonalds training facilities at their frequent, godawful worst.

Evan Todd BTW was said to weigh 255 pounds...but I don't know what year he weighed 255 pounds.

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

I can think of things that happened to *me* in high school that were worse than a bunch of goons throwing ketchup tampons at me and calling me a fag; you'd have to have pretty thin skin to let that make you shoot up your school.

Yeah, that's part of my reasoning as well. The other part as mentioned is bullying doesn't occupy much of their mental space in comparison with themes like self-awareness, halycon, zombies, robots, and the other things they are preoccupied with.

But CHS was a huge part of their life and bullying was a part of CHS.

Quote :

I remain of the opinion myself that bullying was probably a factor, but if it was, it was a smaller factor.

My thought as well. I do not think bullying was a key factor or one that directly contributed to the shooting, but it was the factor that made CHS more bleak. This in turn made a big part of their world bleak, even if the worst abuse was directed at other people.

If you spend a lot of time around angry, violent, abusive and depressed people, it rubs off. I'm not just talking about the jocks, TCM itself wasnt know to be all nice people and as a grup they pushed some kids around as well.

Quote :

I remain interested in stories like those about the Hoffschneider crew and certainly agree that CHS was obsessed with sports; that said, it was also said to be a very academically strong high school, one that families specifically moved to the area to send their kids to.

It was, otherwise the Klebolds wouldn't send their kids there. In retrospect it seems it was a bad parental decision. Both of their kids ened up having serious personality problems.

Question is - was it the school? Or maybe the family? Or common genes? Or maybe neither and it is a coincidence that Byron also had serious issues.