Cullen on Bullying

I'm not sure where that quote about Dylan mocking Evan for calling him a fag came from but it wasn't from the 11K. Todd's statement starts around pg. 174 of the Columbine Report.
Dylan asked him if he was a jock and then told Todd to give him one good reason why he shouldn't kill him. Todd said he'd didn't want any trouble and that he'd never had a problem with Eric or Dylan and never will. That's when Dylan said something to the effect of, "I'm gonna let this fat fuck live" and E +K left the library.

I agree that they were bullied and that bullying played a role in why they did what they did, but how heavily it weighed in with everything else they had going on is anyone's guess. I don't think it can be denied that it was a contributing factor though, given they said as much during their carnage. The 11K is filled with tons of kids telling police that they were saying things like, "This is revenge, fuckers" and "This is for all the shit you put us through for the last 4 yrs."

thelmar wrote:

The 11K is filled with tons of kids telling police that they were saying things like, "This is revenge, fuckers" and "This is for all the shit you put us through for the last 4 yrs."

There's also one key witness that links what E&D said in the library to bullying. I'm surprised nobody brough it up yet in the thread:

The interview with the girl from the school on the day of the day shooting where she is all in tears and says: "Everyone around me got shot (...) he put the gun in my face and started laughing and said it was because people were mean to him last year".

I don't have time now to look on YT for the actual video of this interview, I'm sure someone can find and post it if needed.

Since I'm new here I can't post direct links yet- on YouTube it was posted by Columbine Collection and the title is "columbine library witness describes shooting"
She mentions Eric's statement (it was Eric who taunted her with the gun in her face) about the bullying towards the end of the video.

Sabratha wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Dylan mocked Evan and said "You used to call me a fag. Who's a fag now?"..

I guess I forgot about that quote. Is it from the 11k witness reports?

IDK, it was on Wiki and in Zero Hour, I've never read the 11k.

Which wiki?

Wikipedia.

Quote :

Harris and Klebold mocked Todd, who was wearing a white hat. When the shooters demanded to see his face, Todd partly lifted his hat so his face would remain obscured. When Klebold asked Todd to give him one reason why he should not kill him, Todd said: "I don't want trouble." Klebold said, "You [Todd] used to call me a fag. Who's a fag now?!" The shooters continued to taunt Todd and debated killing him, but they eventually walked away.

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No citation for it so make of it what you will.

QuestionMark wrote:

No citation for it so make of it what you will.

Well, believe it or not - at this point its not about trying to prove you guys wrong or even arguing about teh bullying thing. I'm just really interested in seeing where this quote is coming from.


One thing that came to my mind is that the phrase "fat fuck" might have been easily misheard as "that fag". Remember there's fire alarms and explosives going off. People misheard a lot of things.

First off, this is a topic that has been debated to death.

Now let us make something clear. Cullen was not the one who came up with the psychopath/depressive theory. That was the FBI and their team of psychologists. These findings were presented to a seminar that was held a couple of months after the shooting attended by world-renowned mental health experts from across the world. They concurred with the findings. In addition, you have multiple independent psychologists and psychiatrists who after pouring through the immense amount of evidence regarding Columbine also coming to the conclusion that Eric was a psychopath and Dylan and depressive. These doctors have no horse in the race.

Now what Cullen gets wrong is claiming that the pair suffered zero bullying. This is false, the pair did suffer bullying as well as bullying others. The extent of such bullying that they suffered cannot be known for certain.. Nate (arguably the closest person to Dylan) says that he was hardly bullied, and Chris Morris claims that when bullying involved the two, it was mostly towards Eric. Where the claim of bullying being the motivator behind the shooting comes from is Brooks' Brown.

However I have a few issue with Brooks' claims. First off he had a falling out with Eric the year before and did not interact with him much during the last school year. He also claims that both Eric and Dylan were losers and outcasts being at the bottom of the Columbine hierarchy is just plainly wrong. That is not to say that they were popular, far from it, however they both had an average amount of friends for most people at the school (Dylan more than Eric I believe). There were people who were actual outcasts and losers at the school, who had virtually no friends let alone ones that were girls, both of them did not fall under this category.

Second he takes individual reports of the bullying the two dealt with and gets it wrong. The ketchup incident comes to mind as he reports it was both Dylan and Eric, however this was first claimed by Chad Laughlin who said he was there and it was only Dylan that had ketchup thrown at him that was witnessed by multiple teachers and the entire cafeteria (interestingly enough, this wasn't in the 11k at all, however his mother said she saw ketchup on his shirt from that day leading me to believe the circumstances of this incident might have been exaggerated by Laughlin.)

Most importantly however, Brooks' book was released before their personal journals were released to the public by the FBI.

Eric's journal is pages upon pages of violent murder, rape, torture fantasies. He even has plans of setting up bombs around Denver, detonating it and shooting fleeing survivors in the chaos. Or ones about blowing up a skyscraper in Denver. He brags about how good he's at lying and manipulating people, writing that he can even make you believe a person is growing out of his body (Frank DeAngelis described Eric as the type of person who'd tell you want you wanted to hear when you wanted to hear it.) The same time he had to write an apology letter to the van owner he wrote how he should be able to steal from whomever he pleases.

Throughout the thick of all this, teasing is only brought up twice. In both times he quickly exonerates his peers because they were just acting according to human nature.

“Fuckers shouldn’t have ripped on me so much huh! Ha! Then again it’s human nature to do what you
did ... so I guess I am also attacking the human race.”

Most important though, Eric says that even if he were complimented more, the attack would have still likely happened:

“If people would give me more compliments all of this might still be avoidable . . . but probably
not.”

Hell, he even says the administration of the school is doing a fine job:

"God damnit do not blame anyone else besides me and V
[Vodka, i.e., Dylan] for this. Don’t blame my family, they
had no clue and there’s nothing they could have done, they
brought me up just fucking fine ... don’t blame the school
. . . the admin[istration] is doing a fine job."

Lastly, on the final tapes something interesting is said:

"Morris, Nate, if you guys live, I want you guys to have whatever you want from my room and the computer room."

Both Chris Morris and Nate Dykeman were attending school that day (by coincidence they were not in the building at the time, however another close friend of the duo Zach Heckler was, as well as many of the other friends and acquaintances they had at the school.)

It's evident Eric knew that there was a chance his friends could get killed in the attack, however this did not outweigh his desire to go through with it anyways. If a couple of them died, then so be it. The plan was to commit an attack that would result in the highest body count in US history. They didn't target anybody but the entire school through planting the bombs in the cafeteria (where the greatest concentration and density of students would result around lunchtime), then shooting people who would be pouring out the doors after the blast, with lastly the bombs in the cars killing first responders, survivors, and etc.

This was a seriously disturbed person mentally. To claim that he was driven to such a heinous act because of bullying is laughable,

d/p but good paper on this: schoolshootersDOTinfo/sites/default/files/harris_search_for_justification_1.3.pdf

They were bullied but probably not worse than anyone else. My real issue with Cullen isn't his down play of the bullying motive, but his characterizations of E&D. The book leads you to believe Eric was a psychotic Hugh Hefner and Dylan was a depressed lackey. That's just not accurate. Also didn't like his writing style very much with him adding what he thought the killers thought.

rollotomassi wrote:

First off, this is a topic that has been debated to death.

Now let us make something clear. Cullen was not the one who came up with the psychopath/depressive theory. That was the FBI and their team of psychologists. These findings were presented to a seminar that was held a couple of months after the shooting attended by world-renowned mental health experts from across the world. They concurred with the findings. In addition, you have multiple independent psychologists and psychiatrists who after pouring through the immense amount of evidence regarding Columbine also coming to the conclusion that Eric was a psychopath and Dylan and depressive. These doctors have no horse in the race.

Now what Cullen gets wrong is claiming that the pair suffered zero bullying.

Again: Cullen didn't say this. The problem is that you have to have the 2016 version of the book (with a light-colored cover instead of deeper blue.) That has an extended afterword where Cullen addresses some of the criticisms of his book. He says that "Eric and Dylan had some bad days, for sure. They probably got in a food fight that left them covered in ketchup. The details are murky." This is true. They ARE murky. What he says is that there is zero evidence that the bullying actually led to the massacre. He seems to think Columbine was on average no better or worse than any typical American high school in 1999, but I'm more likely to believe that Columbine was on average worse--I attended a redneck dump of a high school, but we certainly didn't have a Hoffschneider crew of RICH jock bullies stomping around getting away with whatever they wanted.

This version of the book also deleted the Brenda Parker testimony (Cullen says: "It seems likely that Eric died a virgin.") Unfortunately, Cullen shot himself in the foot by failing to remove the incredibly stupid quote about how "Eric got chicks. Lots and lots of chicks," usually cited as the dumbest thing he put in the book.

Hell, Cullen could have deleted just the last five words and the statement wouldn't have been entirely inaccurate. Susan DeWitt, Tiffany Typher, Brandi Tinklenberg alone is better than *I* did in high school...

It was good of you to remind us though that Cullen did not come up with the psychopath/depressive theory; the problem is, for Cullen, that explains EVERYTHING about Columbine.

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

rollotomassi wrote:

First off, this is a topic that has been debated to death.

Now let us make something clear. Cullen was not the one who came up with the psychopath/depressive theory. That was the FBI and their team of psychologists. These findings were presented to a seminar that was held a couple of months after the shooting attended by world-renowned mental health experts from across the world. They concurred with the findings. In addition, you have multiple independent psychologists and psychiatrists who after pouring through the immense amount of evidence regarding Columbine also coming to the conclusion that Eric was a psychopath and Dylan and depressive. These doctors have no horse in the race.

Now what Cullen gets wrong is claiming that the pair suffered zero bullying.

Again: Cullen didn't say this.  The problem is that you have to have the 2016 version of the book (with a light-colored cover instead of deeper blue.)  That has an extended afterword where Cullen addresses some of the criticisms of his book.  He says that "Eric and Dylan had some bad days, for sure.  They probably got in a food fight that left them covered in ketchup.  The details are murky."  This is true.  They ARE murky.  What he says is that there is zero evidence that the bullying actually led to the massacre.  He seems to think Columbine was on average no better or worse than any typical American high school in 1999, but I'm more likely to believe that Columbine was on average worse--I attended a redneck dump of a high school, but we certainly didn't have a Hoffschneider crew of RICH jock bullies stomping around getting away with whatever they wanted.  

This version of the book also deleted the Brenda Parker testimony (Cullen says: "It seems likely that Eric died a virgin.")  Unfortunately, Cullen shot himself in the foot by failing to remove the incredibly stupid quote about how "Eric got chicks.  Lots and lots of chicks," usually cited as the dumbest thing he put in the book.  

Hell, Cullen could have deleted just the last five words and the statement wouldn't have been entirely inaccurate.  Susan DeWitt, Tiffany Typher, Brandi Tinklenberg alone is better than *I* did in high school...

It was good of you to remind us though that Cullen did not come up with the psychopath/depressive theory; the problem is, for Cullen, that explains EVERYTHING about Columbine.  

Hoffschneider and co. graduated the year before the attack. Interestingly however is that he claims to have never met the two.

Jock culture itself was pretty big in American schools in the 90s. We cannot go and poll every school in the nation at the time and compare the levels of bullying at each one. I will tell you this though, at my school there were popular bullies that most people hated who also got away with a lot of shit too. Columbine is not unique in this respects at all.

As I have previously said, we don't know what exactly the degree of bullying the two suffered with certainty because there is so much contradictory information on this. Brooks exaggerates and claims that they were both complete outcasts and losers, being at the absolute bottom of the social ladder, which is completely false. Furthermore, he was not close to Eric during the last year of school and the book was written before the journals came to light.

Based on the evidence that we have however and the actions undertaken, I stand by my claim that the main cause was not bullying. The FBI or Cullen were not the only ones to come to the conclusion of bullying not being the cause. You have independent psychologists and psychiatrists who also poured through this case and the evidence agreeing with the psychopath/depressive theory. I just linked to one in my second post.

rollotomassi wrote:

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

rollotomassi wrote:

First off, this is a topic that has been debated to death.

Now let us make something clear. Cullen was not the one who came up with the psychopath/depressive theory. That was the FBI and their team of psychologists. These findings were presented to a seminar that was held a couple of months after the shooting attended by world-renowned mental health experts from across the world. They concurred with the findings. In addition, you have multiple independent psychologists and psychiatrists who after pouring through the immense amount of evidence regarding Columbine also coming to the conclusion that Eric was a psychopath and Dylan and depressive. These doctors have no horse in the race.

Now what Cullen gets wrong is claiming that the pair suffered zero bullying.

Again: Cullen didn't say this.  The problem is that you have to have the 2016 version of the book (with a light-colored cover instead of deeper blue.)  That has an extended afterword where Cullen addresses some of the criticisms of his book.  He says that "Eric and Dylan had some bad days, for sure.  They probably got in a food fight that left them covered in ketchup.  The details are murky."  This is true.  They ARE murky.  What he says is that there is zero evidence that the bullying actually led to the massacre.  He seems to think Columbine was on average no better or worse than any typical American high school in 1999, but I'm more likely to believe that Columbine was on average worse--I attended a redneck dump of a high school, but we certainly didn't have a Hoffschneider crew of RICH jock bullies stomping around getting away with whatever they wanted.  

This version of the book also deleted the Brenda Parker testimony (Cullen says: "It seems likely that Eric died a virgin.")  Unfortunately, Cullen shot himself in the foot by failing to remove the incredibly stupid quote about how "Eric got chicks.  Lots and lots of chicks," usually cited as the dumbest thing he put in the book.  

Hell, Cullen could have deleted just the last five words and the statement wouldn't have been entirely inaccurate.  Susan DeWitt, Tiffany Typher, Brandi Tinklenberg alone is better than *I* did in high school...

It was good of you to remind us though that Cullen did not come up with the psychopath/depressive theory; the problem is, for Cullen, that explains EVERYTHING about Columbine.  

Hoffschneider and co. graduated the year before the attack. Interestingly however is that he claims to have never met the two.

Jock culture itself was pretty big in American schools in the 90s. We cannot go and poll every school in the nation at the time and compare the levels of bullying at each one. I will tell you this though, at my school there were popular bullies that most people hated who also got away with a lot of shit too. Columbine is not unique in this respects at all.

As I have previously said, we don't know what exactly the degree of bullying the two suffered with certainty because there is so much contradictory information on this. Brooks exaggerates and claims that they were both complete outcasts and losers, being at the absolute bottom of the social ladder, which is completely false. Furthermore, he was not close to Eric during the last year of school and the book was written before the journals came to light.

Based on the evidence that we have however and the actions undertaken, I stand by my claim that the main cause was not bullying. The FBI or Cullen were not the only ones to come to the conclusion of bullying not being the cause. You have independent psychologists and psychiatrists who also poured through this case and the evidence agreeing with the psychopath/depressive theory. I just linked to one in my second post.

What about Chads description of what happened? He was there at the end and saw what happened. How is it murky when a friend witnessed it? He spoke to Dylan after and helped them clean

Also what about the things Devon mentioned and there a litany in the 11k

Evan Todd admitted to bullying them and there was someone on the show intervention who admitted to bullying them.

The bullying didn’t stop when Rocky and co left...There still a bit of a bully and culture there too. I have read so many things and talk to so many people to talk about the bullying. I don’t understand how it’s working when there’s evidence. I don’t think it’s the whole reason but it’s a mitigating factor

Isn’t there a research page somewhere with different categories in the 11k? Like “cafeteria witnesses” and “Eric and Dylan and girls” pages such and such

Also if I may ask... maybe people have different definitions of bullying?

Screamingophelia wrote:

Isn’t there a research page somewhere with different categories in the 11k? Like “cafeteria witnesses” and “Eric and Dylan and girls” pages such and such

I mentioned the ketchup incident in my first post. Chad describes only Dylan being involved and that it occurred in front of multiple teachers and students in the cafeteria. Brooks takes Chad's account and claims it was both Eric and Dylan, he wasn't a witness to it.

Interestingly, nowhere is this incident mentioned in the 11k nor were there any other people who've claimed to witness the incident itself (teachers or other students.) That is not to say I don't believe it happened (his mom said she recalled seeing a ketchup stain on his shirt one day), however I suspect it was exaggerated to a degree by Chad.

In the 11k report, you have multiple people saying that the teasing was not worse than what most people experienced at the school. In addition Nate Dykeman (the closest friend of Dylan by far) said he never saw him getting teased, while Chris Morris says that Dylan was rarely teased and when teasing involved the pair, it was mostly directed towards Eric.

Eric makes it clear in his journal that it wasn't because of teasing, for had he been complimented more, the attack would have still likely happened. Only twice does he bring up teasing in his writings and he quickly exonerates his peers both times. The justification he gave was that he simply wanted to kill as many people as he could, and the attack was planned in a way to rack up the highest body count possible. He knew his attack could kill his friends. This man was seriously disturbed mentally.

So I absolutely concur with Sabratha in that bullying was not the primary cause of the attack.

rollotomassi wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Isn’t there a research page somewhere with different categories in the 11k? Like “cafeteria witnesses” and “Eric and Dylan and girls” pages such and such

I mentioned the ketchup incident in my first post. Chad describes only Dylan being involved and that it occurred in front of multiple teachers and students in the cafeteria. Brooks takes Chad's account and claims it was both Eric and Dylan, he wasn't a witness to it.

Interestingly, nowhere is this incident mentioned in the 11k nor were there any other people who've claimed to witness the incident itself (teachers or other students.) That is not to say I don't believe it happened (his mom said she recalled seeing a ketchup stain on his shirt one day), however I suspect it was exaggerated to a degree by Chad.

In the 11k report, you have multiple people saying that the teasing was not worse than what most people experienced at the school. In addition Nate Dykeman (the closest friend of Dylan by far) said he never saw him getting teased, while Chris Morris says that Dylan was rarely teased and when teasing involved the pair, it was mostly directed towards Eric.

Eric makes it clear in his journal that it wasn't because of teasing, for had he been complimented more, the attack would have still likely happened. Only twice does he bring up teasing in his writings and he quickly exonerates his peers both times. The justification he gave was that he simply wanted to kill as many people as he could, and the attack was planned in a way to rack up the highest body count possible. He knew his attack could kill his friends. This man was seriously disturbed mentally.

So I absolutely concur with Sabratha in that bullying was not the primary cause of the attack.

I never said it was the primary cause, but it was a mitigating cause and it was a toxic environment  so we will have to agree  to disagree. A couple of points I want to make about e and d from what I’ve researched and conversations I’ve had with people who knew them and went to Columbine

-Devon has spoken about the bullying towards Dylan..they were friends.

-you also can’t say they didn’t get it worse because no one was around them 24/7 and with their clear brain health issues, especially with Dylan even the smallest amount of bullying can feel amplified.

-neither boys were going to go to anyone in authority and complain... most kids don’t but especially not kids like them.


-how could Cullen say it was a food fight if everyone is saying there are no witnesses and why would THAT be the worst day of Dylan’s life and cause him to want revenge...

Screamingophelia wrote:

Isn’t there a research page somewhere with different categories in the 11k? Like “cafeteria witnesses” and “Eric and Dylan and girls” pages such and such

That's why I can't stand Evan Todd, because he won't take responsibility and admit to his mistakes. I mean who the heck does he think he is to bully anyone? he's a fat pig.

Screamingophelia wrote:

rollotomassi wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Isn’t there a research page somewhere with different categories in the 11k? Like “cafeteria witnesses” and “Eric and Dylan and girls” pages such and such

I mentioned the ketchup incident in my first post. Chad describes only Dylan being involved and that it occurred in front of multiple teachers and students in the cafeteria. Brooks takes Chad's account and claims it was both Eric and Dylan, he wasn't a witness to it.

Interestingly, nowhere is this incident mentioned in the 11k nor were there any other people who've claimed to witness the incident itself (teachers or other students.) That is not to say I don't believe it happened (his mom said she recalled seeing a ketchup stain on his shirt one day), however I suspect it was exaggerated to a degree by Chad.

In the 11k report, you have multiple people saying that the teasing was not worse than what most people experienced at the school. In addition Nate Dykeman (the closest friend of Dylan by far) said he never saw him getting teased, while Chris Morris says that Dylan was rarely teased and when teasing involved the pair, it was mostly directed towards Eric.

Eric makes it clear in his journal that it wasn't because of teasing, for had he been complimented more, the attack would have still likely happened. Only twice does he bring up teasing in his writings and he quickly exonerates his peers both times. The justification he gave was that he simply wanted to kill as many people as he could, and the attack was planned in a way to rack up the highest body count possible. He knew his attack could kill his friends. This man was seriously disturbed mentally.

So I absolutely concur with Sabratha in that bullying was not the primary cause of the attack.

I never said it was the primary cause, but it was a mitigating cause and it was a toxic environment  so we will have to agree  to disagree. A couple of points I want to make about e and d from what I’ve researched and conversations I’ve had with people who knew them and went to Columbine

-Devon has spoken about the bullying towards Dylan..they were friends.

-you also can’t say they didn’t get it worse because no one was around them 24/7 and with their clear brain health issues, especially with Dylan even the smallest amount of bullying can feel amplified.

-neither boys were going to go to anyone in authority and complain... most kids don’t but especially not kids like them.


-how could Cullen say it was a food fight if everyone is saying there are no witnesses and why would THAT be the worst day of Dylan’s life and cause him to want revenge...

Thanks for you reply.

I am aware Devon said Dylan experienced teasing. I'm saying that the intensity of such teasing cannot be known with certainty because there are so many contradictory witness accounts on this.

No one was around anybody 24/7 at high school, but I absolutely see no evidence that they experienced worse treatment than what the average student at the school dealt with. They were not the most popular kids that's for sure, but certainly not bottom-of-the barrel outcasts and losers. They had an relatively decent amount of friends. You are absolutely right depression can amplify the effects of bullying, but Dylan was not the only depressed kid in that school who experienced teasing, however he was also suicidal. That to me is the greatest catalyst behind his decision to partake in the attack, seeing it as primarily a way to die. Interestingly, not once does Dylan bring up teasing in his journal.

Regarding the ketchup incident, it was Laughlin who described teachers and students witnessing it initially. Brooks takes that account and includes Eric as well. However both describe teachers and other students witnessing it. Hence why it's interesting that in the 11k, it isn't mentioned at all. Thus I'm inclined to believe that it was exaggerated to a degree.

The  ketchup thing is mentioned on pg 91 in The Report of Governor Bill Owens' Columbine Review Commission but I don't know from which sources they got their information.
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And here is the indexed list of names and where they can be found in the 11k
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Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

Again: Cullen didn't say this.  The problem is that you have to have the 2016 version of the book (with a light-colored cover instead of deeper blue.)  That has an extended afterword where Cullen addresses some of the criticisms of his book.  He says that "Eric and Dylan had some bad days, for sure.  They probably got in a food fight that left them covered in ketchup.  The details are murky."  This is true.  They ARE murky.  What he says is that there is zero evidence that the bullying actually led to the massacre.  He seems to think Columbine was on average no better or worse than any typical American high school in 1999, but I'm more likely to believe that Columbine was on average worse--I attended a redneck dump of a high school, but we certainly didn't have a Hoffschneider crew of RICH jock bullies stomping around getting away with whatever they wanted.  

This version of the book also deleted the Brenda Parker testimony (Cullen says: "It seems likely that Eric died a virgin.")  Unfortunately, Cullen shot himself in the foot by failing to remove the incredibly stupid quote about how "Eric got chicks.  Lots and lots of chicks," usually cited as the dumbest thing he put in the book.  

Do you mean the 2010 paperback version? I've searched around and can't find an edition later than 2010. Do you have it in your possession? Does anyone?
I would really like to know if he just quietly removed all of the Brenda Parker stuff without eluding to it, or if he said, with everything we know about Brenda Parker it is believed that she lied about knowing Eric and they never dated at all.
At the time that he wrote his book, it was clear that she was lying about everything. The fact that he included anything about her at all is highly suspect to me and I want to know if he admitted he never should have written about her at all.

Susan Klebold on the ketchup incident:

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One day, Dylan came home, his shirt spotted with ketchup. He refused to tell me what had happened, only that he’d had “the worst day of his life.” I pressed, but Dylan downplayed it, and I let him. Kids have disagreements, I thought. Whatever it is, it’ll blow over—and if it doesn’t, I’ll know. There has been reporting that the incident was more serious than I could ever have imagined: a circle of boys taunting Dylan and Eric, shoving them, spraying them with ketchup, and suggesting they were gay. That incident alone may not explain the deadly kinship forged between the boys, but it is the kind of shared humiliation in which a bond is formed.

You can even be popular and be bullied at that.

With that being said: True, theres not much of evidence that they were bullied. But there are, however withness accounts from their friends. Sue is probably a reliable source, but she doesnt seem to have known anything from Dylans social life at school. Ive read her book. On the bullying part, she takes much of her arguments from Larkins reseach. So thats not exactly a first hand withness account regarding the bullying.

So we are left with Eric and Dylans friends. Many of them talk about bullying, but notice the difference: some argued that Eric was much more bullied than Dylan.

Than you have documented evidence, that is, school records and so on. Langmann argues that theres only one such documented incident where Eric got pushed into a locker

Coincidentially I havent heard him say anything about the ketchup incident. I believe that people tend to claim that he msays stuff that he havent actually said

Screamingophelia wrote:

rollotomassi wrote:

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

rollotomassi wrote:

First off, this is a topic that has been debated to death.

Now let us make something clear. Cullen was not the one who came up with the psychopath/depressive theory. That was the FBI and their team of psychologists. These findings were presented to a seminar that was held a couple of months after the shooting attended by world-renowned mental health experts from across the world. They concurred with the findings. In addition, you have multiple independent psychologists and psychiatrists who after pouring through the immense amount of evidence regarding Columbine also coming to the conclusion that Eric was a psychopath and Dylan and depressive. These doctors have no horse in the race.

Now what Cullen gets wrong is claiming that the pair suffered zero bullying.

Again: Cullen didn't say this.  The problem is that you have to have the 2016 version of the book (with a light-colored cover instead of deeper blue.)  That has an extended afterword where Cullen addresses some of the criticisms of his book.  He says that "Eric and Dylan had some bad days, for sure.  They probably got in a food fight that left them covered in ketchup.  The details are murky."  This is true.  They ARE murky.  What he says is that there is zero evidence that the bullying actually led to the massacre.  He seems to think Columbine was on average no better or worse than any typical American high school in 1999, but I'm more likely to believe that Columbine was on average worse--I attended a redneck dump of a high school, but we certainly didn't have a Hoffschneider crew of RICH jock bullies stomping around getting away with whatever they wanted.  

This version of the book also deleted the Brenda Parker testimony (Cullen says: "It seems likely that Eric died a virgin.")  Unfortunately, Cullen shot himself in the foot by failing to remove the incredibly stupid quote about how "Eric got chicks.  Lots and lots of chicks," usually cited as the dumbest thing he put in the book.  

Hell, Cullen could have deleted just the last five words and the statement wouldn't have been entirely inaccurate.  Susan DeWitt, Tiffany Typher, Brandi Tinklenberg alone is better than *I* did in high school...

It was good of you to remind us though that Cullen did not come up with the psychopath/depressive theory; the problem is, for Cullen, that explains EVERYTHING about Columbine.  

Hoffschneider and co. graduated the year before the attack. Interestingly however is that he claims to have never met the two.

Jock culture itself was pretty big in American schools in the 90s. We cannot go and poll every school in the nation at the time and compare the levels of bullying at each one. I will tell you this though, at my school there were popular bullies that most people hated who also got away with a lot of shit too. Columbine is not unique in this respects at all.

As I have previously said, we don't know what exactly the degree of bullying the two suffered with certainty because there is so much contradictory information on this. Brooks exaggerates and claims that they were both complete outcasts and losers, being at the absolute bottom of the social ladder, which is completely false. Furthermore, he was not close to Eric during the last year of school and the book was written before the journals came to light.

Based on the evidence that we have however and the actions undertaken, I stand by my claim that the main cause was not bullying. The FBI or Cullen were not the only ones to come to the conclusion of bullying not being the cause. You have independent psychologists and psychiatrists who also poured through this case and the evidence agreeing with the psychopath/depressive theory. I just linked to one in my second post.

What about Chads description of what happened? He was there at the end and saw what happened. How is it murky when a friend witnessed it? He spoke to Dylan after and helped them clean

Also what about the things Devon mentioned and there a litany in the 11k

Evan Todd admitted to bullying them and there was someone on the show intervention who admitted to bullying them.

The bullying didn’t stop when Rocky and co left...There still a bit of a bully and culture there too. I have read so many things and talk to so many people to talk about the bullying. I don’t understand how it’s working when there’s evidence. I don’t think it’s the whole reason but it’s a mitigating factor

Im not sure that Todd admitted to bullying them. Ive read Langmanns article 'the seach for truth at Columbine'. Its very likely that Todd was talking about outsiders in general, or confused Eric and Dylan with other students.

Lets put this into vider context, even though I agree that there are plenty of good points.

- Yes, the 11 k report mentions about 200 or so which talks about harassment and bullying, both at the hands of the killers, both directed towards the two. But theres also a certain amount of sources which says that they had never seen them getting picked on. Even close friends, at that.

As far as depression goes, I assume its possible that bullying and depression might be linked somehow? Atleast, as far as Im aware off

Sabratha wrote:

42099_4EVA wrote:

What makes me think bullying was a major factor? Well what makes me think that is the fact that day one, week one, month one, when they started Columbine, they were nothing like they were when they died. Eric and Dylan both were preppy and called goth kids (the same goth kids they turned out to be later themselves - dress wise) "devil kids", some even said they were good little christian boys. So what happened from 9th grade to 11th and 12 grade?

People change a whole lot between the ages of 14 and 19, its probably the period when you change the most from a social viewpoint. This is normal. If you don't change during your teen years in some way, then probably something is very wrong (ie: Lanza).

I think its a bit crazy to suggest that the reason someone became a goth kid is because he/she was bullied. That's certainly
not true of late 90s and early 2000s. I was a HS student myself back then. I didn't listen to metal and goth music at the age of say 12, but I was doing so at the age of 16. I started doing so in HS, but I wasn't bullied in HS at all (I was bullied for some time at the age of about 10).
I didn't dress goth, but I listened to goth music and had friends who were goth inculduing the dress. They weren;t bullied, we pretty much had no bullying in HS. Goth was a popular subculture back then in its own right, not something you contracted because you were bullied  

42099_4EVA wrote:

Something within that school and within Denver Colorado had to set them off, had to trigger them into wanting to kill all.

Obviously something did that. But where's the evidence that it was bullying in specific?

42099_4EVA wrote:

I will take the word of the numerous, numerous people who said that they were bullied

It is likely they experienced some bullying, CHS had plenty of bullying to go around. But what makes you think that those specific events of bullying in their lives were those vital things that made the shooting happen? How does bullying stand out from the other events in their life at the time?

Just a few examples:

• Eric and Dylan were caught for the van brake in and had to go through the youth program. This had an impact on them, they write about it and they are said to complain about Walsh on the tapes. What makes you think bullying was more important than that?
  
• Dylan had a bad love life (or rather lack of it) and wrote about it extensively. What makes you think bullying was more important than that?
  
• Eric hated society, he believed it is turning people into robots and destroys the innate human nature which he considered the ultimate good. What makes you think bullying was more important to him than that?
  
• By all evidence, Dylan was very strongly depressed, for a very long time and had suicidal fantasies before he teamed up with Eric. Egain, where is the evidence that bullying be more important to him than this?
  
• Dylan had issues with his family, is reported to complain on the tapes that they treat him as "the run of the litter". Dylan's brother had substance abuse issues and his parents couldn't handle that. Why do you think its bullying, not family problems that made him kill?
  
• As we know from the diary, Eric was preoccupied with other people not giving him the respect he desrves, asking him for guidance etc. He goes as far as to write that maybe the shooting would not occur if people admired and complimented him. At the same time, no mention whatsoever of bullying there.
  

There are several themes and topics where Eric and Dylan themselves are speaking or writing about. They are telling us what they care about, what pisses them off, what bothers them and what's a big issue for them.
Bullying is not a theme that they introduce and the vast majority of victims they choose during the shooting aren't jocks or bullies.

Quote :

These teens had a hell of a lot of hurt and pain in them

More like a lot of anger, depression and a willingness to share that pain with random kids at CHS via bullets. Don't get me wrong, E&D were dissatisfied with their lives and suicide was one of their goals. I'm not denying that.

But I am saying that they also had an equally strong impulse to kill and maim other kids at CHS:
Freshmen. Poetry nerds. Special needs kids. Star Wars geeks.

They didn't kill Hoffschneider, they killed people like Kelly Fleming, Kyle Velasquez, Lauren Townsend, Daniel Mauser. The sort of people who themselves were likely victims of CHS bullying.

Quote :

I think we would've seen two, extremely emotional and traumatized young teens, pouring out all of that emotion on a grand scale and then we would've all seen just how much hurt and pain was within them.

And what are you basing these conclusions on? It seems you are talking about your own pain and trauma caused by bullying. You are not talking about somethign that is coming to us from E&D.

I am talking about things that come from E&D - their writings, their behavior during the shooting.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Eric and Dylan were picked on. End of story.

CHS had a lot of bullying at at some point E&D were also pushed around. Ok, but where's the strong link between that and the shooting? What makes you think bullying was a more important cause for them than all the stuff I listed (and which they themselves write and talk about)?

There's evidence that family, society, human nature, love etc meant a whole lot to them. Where's the evidence that bullying matterd so much to them?

.

Eric and Dylan werent goths. With that being said, what makes someone goth is mainly because they are interested in darker things. Its a whole music based subculture. What makes someone interested in the gothic subculture, can probably be different from person to person. I was bullied as a teenager and I started listening to metal as a way to go against the mainstream. Yet, it also became a coping mechanism for letting go of stress and anger. It became an outlet for letting go of the hurt and the anger. This is far from a rule when it comes to everyone,but I think it's true to some people.

But other than that, you brought up some relevant points

The thing about Dylan and hes claims to have been mistreated by hes extended family. Is this true, or Is this just hes perception?
I can't recall Sue Klebold saying anything about this, neither in her book or in the interviews. I would assume that she would have said something if this was true. He also claims that Byron 'ripped' on him.

Again, IDK how much of this is true. As Sue Klebold, to my knowledge, doesnt say anything about this. She says that Byron was troubled, yes, but I can't recall anywhere that there was any mention of trouble between Byron and Dylan or Dylan and extended family. Most of the fights seems to have erupted between Byron and the parents, from what I know

Norwegian wrote:

The thing about Dylan and hes claims to have been mistreated by hes extended family. Is this true, or Is this just hes perception?
I can't recall Sue Klebold saying anything about this, neither in her book or in the interviews.

With respect to Sue, why would she? What parent would like to tell the world the tumult between themselves and their child?

QuestionMark wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

The thing about Dylan and hes claims to have been mistreated by hes extended family. Is this true, or Is this just hes perception?
I can't recall Sue Klebold saying anything about this, neither in her book or in the interviews.

With respect to Sue, why would she? What parent would like to tell the world the tumult between themselves and their child?

She did seem to leave out things that might have made her or the family "look bad." The Diversion counselor got the impression that Byron had been thrown out of the house because of his drug use but according to Sue they all talked about it and felt it best he leave. Sue makes it sound like Dylan and Byron got along fine at the time of his death. She told police they were developing a good relationship. But in his Diversion documents Dylan wrote that Byron wasn't involved in his life and when Byron was interviewed the day of the shooting he told police they barely ever saw each other since he'd moved out in July of 1997. He also said that Dylan acted like a pissed off teenager and acted like he was tough.

thelmar wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

The thing about Dylan and hes claims to have been mistreated by hes extended family. Is this true, or Is this just hes perception?
I can't recall Sue Klebold saying anything about this, neither in her book or in the interviews.

With respect to Sue, why would she? What parent would like to tell the world the tumult between themselves and their child?

She did seem to leave out things that might have made her or the family "look bad." The Diversion counselor got the impression that Byron had been thrown out of the house because of his drug use but according to Sue they all talked about it and felt it best he leave. Sue makes it sound like Dylan and Byron got along fine at the time of his death. She told police they were developing a good relationship. But in his Diversion documents Dylan wrote that Byron wasn't involved in his life and when Byron was interviewed the day of the shooting he told police they barely ever saw each other since he'd moved out in July of 1997. He also said that Dylan acted like a pissed off teenager and acted like he was tough.  

Which confirms what Sue Klebold wrote in her book. Byron moved out somewhere around 97 or 98, I think. She doesnt mention Byron being part of Dylans life. She potrays Byron as troubled to the point where they overlooked the problems Dylan got himself into. Which is why Dylans statements about Byron puzzles me, and I dont think we can rely on this account to be accurate. Peter Langman argued that Dylan sometimes blended fantasy with reality. I dont think he was necessarily clear in hes mind in everything that he said. It seems like sometimes he became dellusional. The withness accounts Ive seen either argues that Dylan was well liked by many, but also that he bullied and alienated other students. I think it boils more down to self perception in some cases.

QuestionMark wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

The thing about Dylan and hes claims to have been mistreated by hes extended family. Is this true, or Is this just hes perception?
I can't recall Sue Klebold saying anything about this, neither in her book or in the interviews.

With respect to Sue, why would she? What parent would like to tell the world the tumult between themselves and their child?

.

Shes pretty open about a lot of things in her book, like Byron getting into all kinds of trouble, etc. Its not so much of a secret, either way, that Dylan claims to have detested hes Brother, and hes extended family as its written about in other books regarding the Columbine- shooting. But I think that it puts into question, was this Dylans perception or Is it true.

I think he became overtly dellusional at times, and so its not possible to say wether this was just hes distorted perception of reality or if its actually true.

Norwegian wrote:

Which confirms what Sue Klebold wrote in her book. Byron moved out somewhere around 97 or 98, I think.

Byron said he moved out in July 1997. But it was the Diversion counselor, not Dylan, who after talking with Dylan AND his parents got the impression that Byron was kicked out of the house, not the mutually amicable parting Sue presents. So this instance has nothing to do with Dylan's perceptions- Andrea Sanchez gleaned that from her conversations with the family.
And Byron AGREED with Dylan that they were not close and not much a part of each other's lives since he had left the home. Sue says in her police statement that the two are developing a good relationship and on the exact same day Byron says they barely talk and Dylan's a pissed off teen. So Sue's presentation of the brothers' relationship did not then and does not now fit with what BOTH of the brothers were saying at the time.

I don't think you'll find anyone that will deny that Dylan made mountains out of mole hills. He appears to have been overly sensitive to a lot of things and probably blew them out of proportion. I don't doubt that, at least before Byron dropped out of his life, he and Dylan had had their conflicts. It's pretty normal at that age. And Dylan, being who he was, certainly could have overreacted.
My point was that you have both brothers stating they were not close, yet Sue says they are getting close. And that Sue says Byron wasn't kicked out, but Andrea Sanchez, who interviewed Sue, Tom, and Dylan, got the impression that he was. This suggests to me that Dylan is not the only one whose perceptions of people and events is skewed by emotion.
I have a lot of empathy for Sue and really respect her as a person and for the good she is trying to do. I can completely understand why there would be bias in the way she views things, despite how hard she says she has worked to fully come to terms with what happened. But I don't think she really has fully come to terms and I'm not sure she's really capable of that.

A real challenge is that whereas some friends of Eric and Dylan were said to have withnessed the bullying, other friend also argue that they werent or that they never did see any bullying.

I believe professor Frank Ochberg did a statements on this.

'We have too many bullies and too many youngsters at the mercy of bullies. But we also have a growing system of anti-bullying school programs. Despite rumors to the contrary, the Columbine killers were not bullied. There is no evidence that America, compared to other nations, has more bullies, more bullying, more victimization, and more victims who are ticking time bombs, hatching plots of lethal vengeance. However, we certainly can and should promote school programs that protect all children from stalking, hazing, and the new, evolving forms of abuse: Ostracism and humiliation through electronic social networks'
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I honestly cant say why he argues that they werent bullied. But he also helped Investigating the case. I assume that this is Where its all coming from and so far Im still trying to research other expert opinions about Columbine.

So so far I would argue that Im incoclusive. It would be nice to see other expert opinions on this. Currently reading Cullens book and Ive trying to read Kathy Newmans book. Other than that I tried Jack Levine. Except for the fact that he emulates certain myths in the book(its written in 2005, before the public perception of Columbine started to change), I though it was very educational

The argument, from what I gather, stems from a number of experts that dismissed that they were bullied. In regards to the 11 k, there are also statements which suggests that they never saw any bullying. Even from close friends. Also, the accounts are very different. Brooks suggests that they were the lowest of the low. Nate, on the other hand, seems to say that 'Dylan, Im sure, didnt mind, but Eric, they harassed him in the halls'. Also, theres the question of how much animosity from other people were due to Dylan and Eric being bullied or they themselves picking on others? Given that they also supposedly bullied others, too. So you have Devon Adams saying that people gave them the looks. The first thing that comes to mind, here, is that a) they were bullied b) they were disliked because of their own alienating behaviour. C) both

thelmar wrote:

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

Again: Cullen didn't say this.  The problem is that you have to have the 2016 version of the book (with a light-colored cover instead of deeper blue.)  That has an extended afterword where Cullen addresses some of the criticisms of his book.  He says that "Eric and Dylan had some bad days, for sure.  They probably got in a food fight that left them covered in ketchup.  The details are murky."  This is true.  They ARE murky.  What he says is that there is zero evidence that the bullying actually led to the massacre.  He seems to think Columbine was on average no better or worse than any typical American high school in 1999, but I'm more likely to believe that Columbine was on average worse--I attended a redneck dump of a high school, but we certainly didn't have a Hoffschneider crew of RICH jock bullies stomping around getting away with whatever they wanted.  

This version of the book also deleted the Brenda Parker testimony (Cullen says: "It seems likely that Eric died a virgin.")  Unfortunately, Cullen shot himself in the foot by failing to remove the incredibly stupid quote about how "Eric got chicks.  Lots and lots of chicks," usually cited as the dumbest thing he put in the book.  

Do you mean the 2010 paperback version? I've searched around and can't find an edition later than 2010. Do you have it in your possession? Does anyone?
I would really like to know if he just quietly removed all of the Brenda Parker stuff without eluding to it, or if he said, with everything we know about Brenda Parker it is believed that she lied about knowing Eric and they never dated at all.
At the time that he wrote his book, it was clear that she was lying about everything. The fact that he included anything about her at all is highly suspect to me and I want to know if he admitted he never should have written about her at all.

Its on Playcom, atleast. I have it on ebook. I believe thats the updated version

Guest wrote:

GOOD GRIEF! Took me a second to read through all that! Also just want to say that everyone made some very good points.

BUT it was well known that bullying at Columbine was happening. There in no question that Eric and Dylan were being bullied, there is also no question that Eric and Dylan did their fair share of bullying as well. It's the well known "Trickle down" effect, or as I like to say, shit usually rolls down hill.

Eric and Dylan were picked on. End of story. One girl was pushed around for simply being seen talking to them. The members of the TCM were frequent targets as well. They had issues with the jocks all the time. This is well documented and was just something everyone within the school generally knew was going on.

Too many former students, parents, staff, etc. have said the same thing. Columbine was just a very fucked up school. Even after the attack, students said that it didn't take very long before the bullying started again. That alone says a lot in my opinion.

Eric and Dylan had other things going on in their lives, including some mental issues. But the bullying was indeed part of their shared problems.

Actually, there is, I would say(and you are likely to proove me wrong). And this is not taken from Cullens perspective.

First, its because when flicking through the 11k documents, the statements are very contradicting. I would say I have a certain amount of doubts, because even some of their friends professed to have never seen any bullying.

Second, professor Frank Ochberg suggested that they were not bullied.

And Dwayne Fuselier also said something along the lines that we may never find the answer to how e
environmental factors played a role.


There was, no doubt, a lot of bullying at Columbine, no doubt. But that doesnt mean they themselves were bullied(which is uncertain, in my view)

Screamingophelia wrote:

42099_4EVA wrote:

What makes me think bullying was a major factor? Well what makes me think that is the fact that day one, week one, month one, when they started Columbine, they were nothing like they were when they died. Eric and Dylan both were preppy and called goth kids (the same goth kids they turned out to be later themselves - dress wise) "devil kids", some even said they were good little christian boys. So what happened from 9th grade to 11th and 12 grade? Something within that school and within Denver Colorado had to set them off, had to trigger them into wanting to kill all. I don't think - no, I know they weren't born that way. You can read their backgrounds and tell they weren't born killers like Dahmer, like Manson, or like the Night Stalker, something turned them that way and I will always and forever believe those Columbine kids from 98 and 99 had a helping hand into making Eric and Dylan feel rage towards them.

I will take the word of the numerous, numerous people who said that they were bullied over someone's opinion based on what Eric and Dylan did and didn't show/ or write in their journals, I'm sorry. These teens had a hell of a lot of hurt and pain in them and I am willing to bet my entire life savings that had 4-20-99 never happened and had Eric and Dylan sat in front of someone like Iyanla Vazant or someone like her and really went deep into their talking about the bullying they faced at school, I mean if they were pushed really deep into talking about it, we would've seen two, entirely different teens than the ones we read about in their journals. I don't think we would've seen "REB" and "VoDKa", I think we would've seen two, extremely emotional and traumatized young teens, pouring out all of that emotion on a grand scale and then we would've all seen just how much hurt and pain was within them.

I agree
I am going to go with the information that I have and say bullying was it contributing factor. Because you cannot push someone every day and expect it to be OK. Especially when there’s other mitigating factors.

I don’t think bullying was the only cause of parkland But you better believe that people like Emma Gonzalez contributed to the problem. Not an excuse or justification of course


I am going to go with the information that I have and say bullying was it contributing factor. Because you cannot push someone every day and expect it to be OK. Especially when there’s other mitigating factors.


Also  bullying can be different for everyone. What one person can brush aside another person will take it to heart and it will hurt them. Everyone is different

I don’t understand why this is an argument there a clear pieces of evidence  to prove that there was bullying. I don’t know why it is so hard for you to believe that they were Sabartha.

Its false that Emma bullied Cruz

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I think Cullen is absolutely correct when he says that theres no evidence that they were bullied. Most of that seems to Come from secondary sources to my knowledge. Does that suggest that they werent?

Of course not, but it suggests that theres no evidence.

rollotomassi wrote:

d/p but good paper on this: schoolshootersDOTinfo/sites/default/files/harris_search_for_justification_1.3.pdf

I take what Brooks Brown said with a certain grain of salt.

My problem with the whole bullying narrative is that whereas some friends argue that they were bullied, other close friends have stated that they didnt withness any bullying.
Which kind of leads me to think its impossible to get the answer to that.

What is the most possible answer when withness accounts are conflicting? How does one approach such a situation? I really wish I knew, but I dont.

I guess the only option you have is to look for physical evidence that there was.

Other than that, you are 100% correct. I dont agree with everything that he says, either, but he didnt come up with this. I kind of sense that a number of people have a certain bias towards Dave Cullen.

I guess some of that is because some people have been into this for a long time and seen that there are other perspectives out there. Than some people have been bullied themselves and relate to Dylan and Erics story of being picked. Third, people read Dave Cullens book and just assume that they get the whole story. Claiming that one knows the whole story because they have read Dave Cullen is just naive. Claiming that one knows the whole story by reading Brooks Browns book imo, seems just as subjective.

QuestionMark wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

Dylan and especially Eric in his diary are pretty blunt about what pisses them off most and why the shooting will occur. Neither mention bullying, but that doesn't stop Eric from complaining about a lot of more embarassing stuff - that his friends don't invite him to cool events, that he can't pick up girls, that a loser like Walsh caught him and that he feels scrawny etc.


The supporters of the bullying theory keep saying that "the fact that he didn't write about bullying is the best proof that he was bullied". That's wrong and in my opinion just proves how little they understand Eric. If bullying really were a major factor for Eric, he would write and rant and rave about it, as he does about everything and everyone that pisses him off.

He DID write about getting bullied. I even quoted the passaged from his journal where he talked about people picking on him. Do I need to quote them again? You seem to be selectively ignoring it.

He talked about being made fun of and always moving around and finding himself at the bottom of the food chain, and another Where people wont talk to him.


Much of this could imply bullying, but there are also other possible explanations. I E, how much of Eric being ignored came from hes anger issues and how he treated other people?

Plus, being made fun of/ teasingvdoesnt necessarily mean bullying. Bullying is an imballance of power and repetition

Sabratha wrote:

42099_4EVA wrote:

What makes me think bullying was a major factor? Well what makes me think that is the fact that day one, week one, month one, when they started Columbine, they were nothing like they were when they died. Eric and Dylan both were preppy and called goth kids (the same goth kids they turned out to be later themselves - dress wise) "devil kids", some even said they were good little christian boys. So what happened from 9th grade to 11th and 12 grade?

People change a whole lot between the ages of 14 and 19, its probably the period when you change the most from a social viewpoint. This is normal. If you don't change during your teen years in some way, then probably something is very wrong (ie: Lanza).

I think its a bit crazy to suggest that the reason someone became a goth kid is because he/she was bullied. That's certainly
not true of late 90s and early 2000s. I was a HS student myself back then. I didn't listen to metal and goth music at the age of say 12, but I was doing so at the age of 16. I started doing so in HS, but I wasn't bullied in HS at all (I was bullied for some time at the age of about 10).
I didn't dress goth, but I listened to goth music and had friends who were goth inculduing the dress. They weren;t bullied, we pretty much had no bullying in HS. Goth was a popular subculture back then in its own right, not something you contracted because you were bullied  

42099_4EVA wrote:

Something within that school and within Denver Colorado had to set them off, had to trigger them into wanting to kill all.

Obviously something did that. But where's the evidence that it was bullying in specific?

42099_4EVA wrote:

I will take the word of the numerous, numerous people who said that they were bullied

It is likely they experienced some bullying, CHS had plenty of bullying to go around. But what makes you think that those specific events of bullying in their lives were those vital things that made the shooting happen? How does bullying stand out from the other events in their life at the time?

Just a few examples:

• Eric and Dylan were caught for the van brake in and had to go through the youth program. This had an impact on them, they write about it and they are said to complain about Walsh on the tapes. What makes you think bullying was more important than that?
  
• Dylan had a bad love life (or rather lack of it) and wrote about it extensively. What makes you think bullying was more important than that?
  
• Eric hated society, he believed it is turning people into robots and destroys the innate human nature which he considered the ultimate good. What makes you think bullying was more important to him than that?
  
• By all evidence, Dylan was very strongly depressed, for a very long time and had suicidal fantasies before he teamed up with Eric. Egain, where is the evidence that bullying be more important to him than this?
  
• Dylan had issues with his family, is reported to complain on the tapes that they treat him as "the run of the litter". Dylan's brother had substance abuse issues and his parents couldn't handle that. Why do you think its bullying, not family problems that made him kill?
  
• As we know from the diary, Eric was preoccupied with other people not giving him the respect he desrves, asking him for guidance etc. He goes as far as to write that maybe the shooting would not occur if people admired and complimented him. At the same time, no mention whatsoever of bullying there.
  

There are several themes and topics where Eric and Dylan themselves are speaking or writing about. They are telling us what they care about, what pisses them off, what bothers them and what's a big issue for them.
Bullying is not a theme that they introduce and the vast majority of victims they choose during the shooting aren't jocks or bullies.

Quote :

These teens had a hell of a lot of hurt and pain in them

More like a lot of anger, depression and a willingness to share that pain with random kids at CHS via bullets. Don't get me wrong, E&D were dissatisfied with their lives and suicide was one of their goals. I'm not denying that.

But I am saying that they also had an equally strong impulse to kill and maim other kids at CHS:
Freshmen. Poetry nerds. Special needs kids. Star Wars geeks.

They didn't kill Hoffschneider, they killed people like Kelly Fleming, Kyle Velasquez, Lauren Townsend, Daniel Mauser. The sort of people who themselves were likely victims of CHS bullying.

Quote :

I think we would've seen two, extremely emotional and traumatized young teens, pouring out all of that emotion on a grand scale and then we would've all seen just how much hurt and pain was within them.

And what are you basing these conclusions on? It seems you are talking about your own pain and trauma caused by bullying. You are not talking about somethign that is coming to us from E&D.

I am talking about things that come from E&D - their writings, their behavior during the shooting.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Eric and Dylan were picked on. End of story.

CHS had a lot of bullying at at some point E&D were also pushed around. Ok, but where's the strong link between that and the shooting? What makes you think bullying was a more important cause for them than all the stuff I listed (and which they themselves write and talk about)?

There's evidence that family, society, human nature, love etc meant a whole lot to them. Where's the evidence that bullying matterd so much to them?

Wholeheartedly agree with your analysis Sabratha as it's so tiring to hear the typical refuted tumblrbine arguments. You should also check out these two papers:

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Could you post your reddit account username or a throwaway one? I'd like to discuss this with you more but I have to post 50 times. I can message you there. All the best

Sabratha wrote:

Plus, being made fun of/ teasingvdoesnt necessarily mean bullying. Bullying is an imballance of power and repetition

I was once being made fun of all day and I felt lower then ever after that. He also says that people always
made fun of him, meaning that this could very well considered bullying.

I think Cullen was right to see bullying as related to ignoring the bombs and emphasizing the shooting.

I also tend to agree with Sabratha - if bullying mattered to them as much as some fans imagine, it would have been mentioned a lot more. Dylan seems quite explicit in saying he resents the jocks for having girlfriends, not for harassing him. Similarly, Eric says the school admin is doing a fine job, in contrast to the stories from Brooks after the shock of the attack.

The formula seems to be library massacre and library suicides minus the bombs and video games equals the bullying story. I think if they had died before entering the school, say, one would not have the bullying story.

The white hats seem to be used as a target for male students like the DOOM zombies green hair, not because of particular jock resentment.  Realizing that makes one wonder whether the perps *said* just white hats and it was interpreted as "jocks", but they didn't say jocks. With the exception of Evan Todd, the witnesses seem at least possibly consistent with that.

There is also the quote "This is for the last four years." But Bree Pasquale hears it as "This is for last year", which makes more sense given the massacre was planned for a year. Plus, a perp saying their victims deserve it, doesn't mean they do.

There are also actions like shooting the (empty) trophy case, which seems more like to see what it was like to shoot glass, a new feature of the video game Rise of the Triad, rather than as an "FU" to the jocks. Shooting a tv and smashing the chair was also done and don't seem particularly jock oriented, but they seem to be moves out of the video game Duke Nukem 3D.  A level of Duke Nukem which has an homage to Rise of the Triad and DOOM seems to be where Dylan got his Salem Cross symbol from.

They also are telling the white hats to *get up* and flee out the emergency exit, which is so often ignored. They expected the fire alarm to get them moving. It also seems to me they preferred the victims standing up because that's how the enemies are in video games. Eric's Nazi report mentions shooting multiple with one bullet, surely as he envisioned as he shot upon the fleeing, funneling library from the hill.   It wasn't "get up and face me, jocks"

The suicide in the library was romanticized by many followers, proving they were just as abused as their murdered victims in prior school days.  Because if it's just a shooting, being drawn back to the library is rather inexplicable. When one realizes they had to take one last look at Eric's car bomb, that they were supposed to die from a bomb in the library the first time, and they wished to be lost among the victims, it's not so difficult.  

In Duke Nukem 3D, if the enemy chokes after you shoot it, it will come back alive, unless you blow up the corpse with a pipe bomb. This seems to be why they were tossing bombs right after shooting people, at Rachel Scott, at Daniel Steepleton, and with themselves with the help of the last Molotov.  The bombs left around their bodies were not "booby traps" for police with nothing to light them, but for themselves. "Booby traps" again brushes the bombs to the aftermath of the attack, just as "Failed at 11:17" brushes the bombs aside to before.  NBK.doc on Eric's computer, a quite preliminary sketch of the plan, written supposedly in April of 98, mentions poisoning the bombs to hurt cops, and seems the origin of the booby trap myth.

There's also Dylan's comments in Eric's yearbook in May of 98. "My wrath for January's incident will be Godlike" and "Not to mention our revenge in the commons". As, for example, Gleason points out, both of these have been said to refer to the alleged, wicked ketchup incident.  

It seems to me they rather obviously refer to the van break in in January, and  the bombs in the commons.  The first may refer to the massacre in general. If it refers to a different part of the attack, then perhaps it means the diversion as opposed to the main bombs in the commons. The diversion was placed on Wadsworth and Chatfield - the Van break in was on Wadsworth and Deer Creek Canyon Road. It was staggered in order to get victims - they said it would add frags, i. e. deaths by bombing in video games, to the list.  They probably hoped the diversion would get Deputy Walsh. Probably why Kate Battan's all cagey about whether there's two in Cullen's book, but Gleason et al confirms there were two and staggered.

Quote :

I think Cullen was right to see bullying as related to ignoring the bombs and emphasizing the shooting.

I think Hitler was right to see Jews like you as a danger for humanity

cakeman wrote:

I think Cullen was right to see bullying as related to ignoring the bombs and emphasizing the shooting.

Well what does Cullen do except for pushing a literal leftist
agenda as we can mainly see in the Parkland book. The Columbine book is also often used by Feminists and people the like as we can see here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

cakeman wrote:

I also tend to agree with Sabratha - if bullying mattered to them as much as some fans imagine, it would have been mentioned a lot more.

Well he probably wrote all his rants about how he hates everyone out of complete boredom.

cakeman wrote:

The white hats seem to be used as a target for male students like the DOOM zombies green hair, not because of particular jock resentment.  Realizing that makes one wonder whether the perps *said* just white hats and it was interpreted as "jocks", but they didn't say jocks. With the exception of Evan Todd, the witnesses seem at least possibly consistent with that.

"Uhhh yeah trust me bro."
White hats were apparently heavily associated with jocks so I fail to see the issue here.

Sturmengel wrote:

cakeman wrote:

I think Cullen was right to see bullying as related to ignoring the bombs and emphasizing the shooting.

Well what does Cullen do except for pushing a literal leftist
agenda as we can mainly see in the Parkland book. The Columbine book is also often used by Feminists and people the like as we can see here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

cakeman wrote:

I also tend to agree with Sabratha - if bullying mattered to them as much as some fans imagine, it would have been mentioned a lot more.

Well he probably wrote all his rants about how he hates everyone out of complete boredom.

cakeman wrote:

The white hats seem to be used as a target for male students like the DOOM zombies green hair, not because of particular jock resentment.  Realizing that makes one wonder whether the perps *said* just white hats and it was interpreted as "jocks", but they didn't say jocks. With the exception of Evan Todd, the witnesses seem at least possibly consistent with that.

"Uhhh yeah trust me bro."
White hats were apparently heavily associated with jocks so I fail to see the issue here.

Everyone (except for cakeman and tiktok Stacy's) also knows that Cullen is just a sexually-obsessed psychofan of Dylan Klebold who tried to denigrate Harris so fucking hard just because he's so jealous about Dylan. Cullen even openly declared himself as gay on his Twitter iirc, and there was a Twitter drama when someone dug up his alleged Wattpad account (not 100% confirmed it was Cullen or not, but it's very possible...) with E&D gayfiction. It's a shame that guy like him is treated as an expert on school shootings by the (((mainstream))) media, fuck him and his ''incel psychopath white male'' narrative.

xDarkRazoR wrote:

Sturmengel wrote:

cakeman wrote:

I think Cullen was right to see bullying as related to ignoring the bombs and emphasizing the shooting.

Well what does Cullen do except for pushing a literal leftist
agenda as we can mainly see in the Parkland book. The Columbine book is also often used by Feminists and people the like as we can see here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

cakeman wrote:

I also tend to agree with Sabratha - if bullying mattered to them as much as some fans imagine, it would have been mentioned a lot more.

Well he probably wrote all his rants about how he hates everyone out of complete boredom.

cakeman wrote:

The white hats seem to be used as a target for male students like the DOOM zombies green hair, not because of particular jock resentment.  Realizing that makes one wonder whether the perps *said* just white hats and it was interpreted as "jocks", but they didn't say jocks. With the exception of Evan Todd, the witnesses seem at least possibly consistent with that.

"Uhhh yeah trust me bro."
White hats were apparently heavily associated with jocks so I fail to see the issue here.

Everyone (except for cakeman and tiktok Stacy's) also knows that Cullen is just a sexually-obsessed psychofan of Dylan Klebold who tried to denigrate Harris so fucking hard just because he's so jealous about Dylan. Cullen even openly declared himself as gay on his Twitter iirc, and there was a Twitter drama when someone dug up his alleged Wattpad account (not 100% confirmed it was Cullen or not, but it's very possible...) with E&D gayfiction. It's a shame that guy like him is treated as an expert on school shootings by the (((mainstream))) media, fuck him and his ''incel psychopath white male'' narrative.

If these accounts weren't so obviously the same spamming A-Log and they tried less hard, maybe one day they could be funny. Which of your last banned accounts was your favorite?

They could hardly wait 3 seconds to spam a reply. Friends with pekka accounts that he complains about to the mods and they fall for that misdirection. All the same person, never failing to expose themselves if I post. Just lol.  Good trolls have real friends.

"You know what I hate" is from MadTV, as I've pointed out, and they know, so they specifically point that out to spam. They know my username on other websites they obsess over me on involves the word incel, so they each say that 45 times thinking they are clever.

The perps both said they imagine the victims as Doom zombies quite explicitly.

cakeman wrote:

xDarkRazoR wrote:

Sturmengel wrote:

cakeman wrote:

I think Cullen was right to see bullying as related to ignoring the bombs and emphasizing the shooting.

Well what does Cullen do except for pushing a literal leftist
agenda as we can mainly see in the Parkland book. The Columbine book is also often used by Feminists and people the like as we can see here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

cakeman wrote:

I also tend to agree with Sabratha - if bullying mattered to them as much as some fans imagine, it would have been mentioned a lot more.

Well he probably wrote all his rants about how he hates everyone out of complete boredom.

cakeman wrote:

The white hats seem to be used as a target for male students like the DOOM zombies green hair, not because of particular jock resentment.  Realizing that makes one wonder whether the perps *said* just white hats and it was interpreted as "jocks", but they didn't say jocks. With the exception of Evan Todd, the witnesses seem at least possibly consistent with that.

"Uhhh yeah trust me bro."
White hats were apparently heavily associated with jocks so I fail to see the issue here.

Everyone (except for cakeman and tiktok Stacy's) also knows that Cullen is just a sexually-obsessed psychofan of Dylan Klebold who tried to denigrate Harris so fucking hard just because he's so jealous about Dylan. Cullen even openly declared himself as gay on his Twitter iirc, and there was a Twitter drama when someone dug up his alleged Wattpad account (not 100% confirmed it was Cullen or not, but it's very possible...) with E&D gayfiction. It's a shame that guy like him is treated as an expert on school shootings by the (((mainstream))) media, fuck him and his ''incel psychopath white male'' narrative.

If these accounts weren't so obviously the same spamming A-Log and they tried less hard, maybe one day they could be funny. Which of your last banned accounts was your favorite?

They could hardly wait 3 seconds to spam a reply. Friends with pekka accounts that he complains about to the mods and they fall for that misdirection. All the same person, never failing to expose themselves if I post. Just lol.  Good trolls have real friends.

"You know what I hate" is from MadTV, as I've pointed out, and they know, so they specifically point that out to spam. They know my username on other websites they obsess over me on involves the word incel, so they each say that 45 times thinking they are clever.

The perps both said they imagine the victims as Doom zombies quite explicitly.

Sorry sir but what are you talking about sir? This is the first time of me interacting with you sir.

xDarkRazoR wrote:

Cullen even openly declared himself as gay on his Twitter iirc

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Yep it's true

Crazy fat ex gf cant stand the thought of a thought of mine she doesnt respond to 50 times.

cakeman wrote:

Crazy fat ex gf cant stand the thought of a thought of mine she doesnt respond to 50 times.

"Muh crazy ex gf." Holy shit take your meds or smh.