Frank DeAngelis releasing a book

I'd rather not listen to a guy who still blames video games as a motive.

Respectfully Tommy, how can you not? The case for that is much stronger than bullying, frankly. Why did they carry and switch between two guns including a shotgun if not because that's what you do in a first person shooter? Their choice of weapons, their outfit, actions such as shooting at the bombs and having fun, the plan to kill em all, the berserk in Eric's pocket, all of it very plainly influenced by first person shooters. Literally included Doom and Duke Nukem among the list of things the massacre would resemble, and Doom is probably at worst the second biggest influence to OKC, if not the biggest, even more than Natural Born Killers.  While it may not be the initial reason to wish to go on a killing spree, it seems to me undeniable the massacre would look very different to the point of not happening at all had they never played a video game.  

People just seem to get defensive and think saying x is a motive is the same as saying x forces people to murder.  Can see the same point-and-sputter defenses with blaming lack of success with women. Just seems to me the shock of the crime has them coping by saying they must have been forced to do it by e. g. bullies.

If you hate someone for whatever reason and want them to die, and then read a book about Jack the Ripper, and then because of that your MO is to stab them in an alley way, I think the book alongside the initial reason counts as  a motive. And that doesn't mean one gets to paint that as "banning books will stop murders" as if one cannot cast their own theories in the same uncharitable light like "banning namecalling will stop murders".

cakeman wrote:

Respectfully Tommy, how can you not? The case for that is much stronger than bullying, frankly. Why did they carry and switch between two guns including a shotgun if not because that's what you do in a first person shooter? Their choice of weapons, their outfit, actions such as shooting at the bombs and having fun, the plan to kill em all, the berserk in Eric's pocket, all of it very plainly influenced by first person shooters. Literally included Doom and Duke Nukem among the list of things the massacre would resemble, and Doom is probably at worst the second biggest influence to OKC, if not the biggest, even more than Natural Born Killers.  While it may not be the initial reason to wish to go on a killing spree, it seems to me undeniable the massacre would look very different to the point of not happening at all had they never played a video game.  

People just seem to get defensive and think saying x is a motive is the same as saying x forces people to murder.  Can see the same point-and-sputter defenses with blaming lack of success with women. Just seems to me the shock of the crime has them coping by saying they must have been forced to do it by e. g. bullies.

If you hate someone for whatever reason and want them to die, and then read a book about Jack the Ripper, and then because of that your MO is to stab them in an alley way, I think the book alongside the initial reason counts as  a motive. And that doesn't mean one gets to paint that as "banning books will stop murders" as if one cannot cast their own theories in the same uncharitable light like "banning namecalling will stop murders".

I believe what Tommy is trying to say is that a person like Frank DeAngelis isn't really making the distinction between "inspiration" and "directly caused Eric and Dylan to act violently". Most people who blame video games for mass murder are trying to say that violent video games, directly, turn people into murderers. They lack nuance.

QuestionMark wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Respectfully Tommy, how can you not? The case for that is much stronger than bullying, frankly. Why did they carry and switch between two guns including a shotgun if not because that's what you do in a first person shooter? Their choice of weapons, their outfit, actions such as shooting at the bombs and having fun, the plan to kill em all, the berserk in Eric's pocket, all of it very plainly influenced by first person shooters. Literally included Doom and Duke Nukem among the list of things the massacre would resemble, and Doom is probably at worst the second biggest influence to OKC, if not the biggest, even more than Natural Born Killers.  While it may not be the initial reason to wish to go on a killing spree, it seems to me undeniable the massacre would look very different to the point of not happening at all had they never played a video game.  

People just seem to get defensive and think saying x is a motive is the same as saying x forces people to murder.  Can see the same point-and-sputter defenses with blaming lack of success with women. Just seems to me the shock of the crime has them coping by saying they must have been forced to do it by e. g. bullies.

If you hate someone for whatever reason and want them to die, and then read a book about Jack the Ripper, and then because of that your MO is to stab them in an alley way, I think the book alongside the initial reason counts as  a motive. And that doesn't mean one gets to paint that as "banning books will stop murders" as if one cannot cast their own theories in the same uncharitable light like "banning namecalling will stop murders".

I believe what Tommy is trying to say is that a person like Frank DeAngelis isn't really making the distinction between "inspiration" and "directly caused Eric and Dylan to act violently". Most people who blame video games for mass murder are trying to say that violent video games, directly, turn people into murderers. They lack nuance.

That might be true, and is  a good way to put it. I will row back some of what I said if that was his intention. I'm sure I would have many disagreements with DeAngelis.

Still, I think video games, or perhaps rather the isolation which causes one to be immersed in video games, seems part of the pathology which birthed Columbine. There's not another topic with which I could draw more connections to the massacre. Just the other day, I thought about the way Dylan tossed that molotov cocktail at the cafeteria bombs. It was not the usual way to throw things, almost cocky, and side-armed. I thought about the kind of things Dylan was into, such as Nine Inch Nails. I have to wonder if he was throwing it like an Ogre in Quake.

I wonder if Franky DeAngely will have anything to say about Ralph Larkin trashing him (the word "unimpressive" was hilariously used) in "Comprehending Columbine" 12 years ago.

@Brad T- I agree with you that the Klebold's and the Harris' should have sued the school for the bullying environment. I graduated from a nearby school that was mentioned in Cullen's book a few years before Dylan and Eric. Bullying was an issue there, but nothing as bad as Columbine. I may read DeAngelis' book just to compare it to the other books out there.

ALD80112 wrote:

@Brad T- I agree with you that the Klebold's and the Harris' should have sued the school for the bullying environment.

I'm so glad the two of you don't practice law.

I think it'd be an interesting read.

If we take out the debate of Eric and Dylan being bullied, there’s a lot of stories about pretty severe bullying incidents. I think many of them should’ve been addressed. I look at it like I looked in my school there was a ton of bullying incidents that were not addressed because it was certain types of kids doing it, the oooukst ones...

Something to remember, columbine was the lightning rod. This was the event that made people look at these incidents more so. For those who were old enough to remember it was a huge incident even for people who lived thousands of miles away, we had daily columbine reports. We knew everything about the shooters about the victims the injured. People are not kidding about 24 seven news coverage of the shooting. It was constant. What Eric and Dylan did changed everything. People talk about how many killed etc. this person killed more. It doesn’t matter, columbine is the event that people look to.

Screamingophelia wrote:

If we take out the debate of Eric and Dylan being bullied, there’s a lot of stories about pretty severe bullying incidents. I think many of them should’ve been addressed. I look at it like I looked in my school there was a ton of bullying incidents that were not addressed because it was certain types of kids doing it, the oooukst ones...

Something to remember, columbine was the lightning rod. This was the event that made people look at these incidents more so. For those who were old enough to remember it was a huge incident even for  people who lived thousands of miles away, we had daily columbine reports. We knew everything about the shooters about the victims the injured. People are not kidding about 24 seven  news coverage of the shooting. It was constant. What Eric and Dylan did changed everything. People talk about how many killed etc. this person killed more. It doesn’t matter, columbine is the event that people look to.

This is a link to the report done by Regina Huerter for the Governor's Commission investigation. She interviewed a bunch of kids and parents and details some pretty horrible bullying incidents at Columbine and how they were handled (or not handled) by administration.
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thelmar wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

If we take out the debate of Eric and Dylan being bullied, there’s a lot of stories about pretty severe bullying incidents. I think many of them should’ve been addressed. I look at it like I looked in my school there was a ton of bullying incidents that were not addressed because it was certain types of kids doing it, the oooukst ones...

Something to remember, columbine was the lightning rod. This was the event that made people look at these incidents more so. For those who were old enough to remember it was a huge incident even for  people who lived thousands of miles away, we had daily columbine reports. We knew everything about the shooters about the victims the injured. People are not kidding about 24 seven  news coverage of the shooting. It was constant. What Eric and Dylan did changed everything. People talk about how many killed etc. this person killed more. It doesn’t matter, columbine is the event that people look to.

This is a link to the report done by Regina Huerter for the Governor's Commission investigation. She interviewed a bunch of kids and parents and details some pretty horrible bullying incidents at Columbine and how they were handled (or not handled) by administration.
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Thank you. Something interesting about bullying in general I want to mention. I have an acquaintance from HS who I see sometimes when I visit home for the holidays. A couple years ago she suggested we grab coffee and she said oh and I can invite “Betty” to come with us. She is really good friends with “Betty” we all went to high school together. She was a huge bully to me and she didn’t remember that. Which is surprising because she was pretty nasty person to me.

It makes you think about people’s memories and perceptions. Which is why I sometimes don’t want to argue about whether or not they were bullying. Because I don’t think it was the main reason that I think the culture made it a toxic environment for many kids.

'They call me Mr D'. I have this in Kindle.

Ive stopped reading too much online, but Ive read a few papers.

Reading too much on the cellphone is not good for your eyes. I dont read much into Columbine anymore. First off all because its not good for my health. But also because there are so many good things in this world that rarely gets the attention, and reading too much on the cellphone isnt good for your eyes. I am currently listening to Dave Cullens and Sue Klebolds books in audio- tape, though.

Its always interesting to get New perspectives, though

QuestionMark wrote:

ALD80112 wrote:

@Brad T- I agree with you that the Klebold's and the Harris' should have sued the school for the bullying environment.

I'm so glad the two of you don't practice law.

We had a few cases here in Norway, where the schools were sued for not preventing bullying and it actually worked. IDK how it works in the US, though. There are groups such as the Bully project, IDK wether they can answer this question better than I do.

Guest wrote:

No way does it justify them being bullied. I agree with you. People should be able to be themselves regardless if it isn’t what the rest of the group is like. I personally understand this. I was def not the “norm” in my school. I was a 16 yr old junior in high school in 1999. Schools didn’t care about bullying. But it’s not an excuse. What I’ve read so far he says things like “there wasn’t a jock environment” (not exact quote). It’s hard for me to believe. TONS of high schools were jock driven. They never got in trouble, they ran the school.

The school isn’t the only place to blame, but I thought after 20 years maybe his story would surface a bit differently. Maybe the ending will have more insight? I doubt it, but I will get through the book just to be sure.

If anyone should be "running" the school, it should be the smart ones; not a bunch of kids who throw a da** football.

Screamingophelia wrote:

SenSpiritedAway wrote:

I started to read this book when it popped up on my hoopla reading app. I glossed over much of it. IMO it seemed very forced (but maybe that’s just me). Without giving away anything it seemed like he always felt like a father figure to the students but doesn’t show that same feeling to Dylan and Eric. I totally get it, I mean they did a horrific act, but in the same sense he didn’t come across as someone who felt that they even belonged there. Like they were never part of the student body.  I don’t know when I’ll finish it. Not in my top list of Columbine books.

To be honest with you I get that vibe from other students too.  Devon talks about it, she accepted Dylan of course because they were friends but she does talk about how they didn’t really belong. And Evan Todd did too.

And I guarantee you, not to sound like an armchair psychologist, but Eric and Dylan probably picked up on the vibe too! Which is why I actually really appreciated it when Sue and Tom said that maybe Dylan and Zach should do some volunteer work around the school so they can feel more connected to their peers instead of alienating

Evan Todd was aprt of the bullying problem and he didn't give a sh*t what mental damage he did to his victims.

Those kids were way spoiled too, what kind of parent buys their kid a $100,000 dollar Hummer? Please explain that to me.

I dont agree that kids should run the school at all. The problem is that bullies doesnt fall into one category. You can be the brightest person in the world and still bully people. I dont think it has so much to do with IQ, but much more to do with everything from personal problems or learned behaviour to a potential for developing Antisocial Personality disorder later in life.

They dont fit into a specific 'category'

Also, as far as Evan Todd saying they didn't belong, who was that fat f**k to say where they belonged? Columbine was their school too.

bradt93 wrote:

Also, as far as Evan Todd saying they didn't belong, who was that fat f**k to say where they belonged? Columbine was their school too.

I dont think he did specify that as a reference to Eric and Dylan. I did hear him argue he felt misrepresented after the tragedy. Ill make sure to put the podcast episode out if I find it. Not really sure wether this was something he just said, given the circumstances of the situation or he actually stood behind those words.

He did tell the gunmen that he had been nice to them, though, but again, I feel like context matters.
It probably was the most traumatic event in the entire life for people at that school that day.

Let's face it. How on earth can one person, even the head of the school have any clue what was or is going on in the real world of day to day life in that building??

It would be impossible!

Nobody went to the Head Teacher, Teachers, Parents, OR EVEN FRIENDS to complain or ask for help with being bullied.

Columbine High School was, & is MASSIVE. So many students. Such a variety of class amongst piers.

The whole system was, and is fooked!

Every so often, someone is going to flip. No way can you blame that on "The Head Principal" that should know exactly what's going on.

40% of the Students probably saw Mr. Sanders as being an out of touch Dork back then in 1997/98/99

Eric & Dylan both loved their parents and spoke highly of them. Da frig is Frank DeAngelis gonna possibly do/have done?

I had no idea also!! Gonna order it. Thanks!!