Why didn't they fight the police?

This is a thought that has been in my mind for awhile.

During the shooting, why didn't E&D stick around after their killing spree and wait for the cops to storm the building and exchange fire with them?

I'm sure they might of been able to kill a few of them, which may of made them proud/happy?

Also I know they weren't really planning on making it out alive, so why not have a deadly shootout with the police? I think it would be much easier to die from someone else's bullet than my own.

I know Eric supposedly took a few shots out the window of the library at them. My only thoughts as to why they didn't do that is 1. they had more anger toward the school than the police? and 2. They thought being shot by a "pig" was lame or something.

Well firstly, they fired at the police two or three times during the shooting, so they probably thought they had managed to kill an officer or two already. Secondly, Eric and Dylan had already waited almost 45 minutes for the police to storm the building, so there's no reason for them to believe that the cops would've came after them after another hour or three had passed (or if any police were coming, they'd be using tear gas and a SWAT team, which neither boy could really be said to be prepared for). Lastly, they were running low on ammo and were no doubt disappointed from the failure of the car bombs. The former would hinder any type of shoot-out while the latter likely took the wind right out of their sails.

Yeah I mean honestly they probably thought dying would be easier by their own hand

They could've also thought along the way, what if a cop injures us bad but we don't die? Like that guy who shot up the military base but they paralyzed him. Eric and Dylan would've been absolutely humiliated beyond belief sitting in a wheelchair in a courtroom watching their own basement tapes how they said they were going to kill more than 250 ppl etc... They probably though fuck it we shot at them lets go and make sure we go!

dereknocturnal wrote:

They could've also thought along the way, what if a cop injures us bad but we don't die? Like that guy who shot up the military base but they paralyzed him. Eric and Dylan would've been absolutely humiliated beyond belief sitting in a wheelchair in a courtroom watching their own basement tapes how they said they were going to kill more than 250 ppl etc... They probably though fuck it we shot at them lets go and make sure we go!

They were well prepared to die in a shoot-out with the police.
They probably thought they shot a few cops, and probably believed they killed more than 13 people too.
By the time they got back to the library they were ready to hang it up. Low on ammo, and probably let down that their judgement day was essentially a failure.

They exchanged some fire with the police from the windows for a bit while in the library. I think they realized their whole plan was ultimately a failure. They weren't gonna blow up the school and they weren't gonna stick it to the authorities. After the adrenaline wore off, they didn't see a reason to keep living. They were prepared for a shoot-out, as mentioned above. Had the shooting been more successful then I do believe they would have waited for the cops to storm the school and go out in a fire fight. They sure as hell weren't going to be taken alive.

I've always theorized that during the latter part of the massacre, when they seemed to be just aimlessly wandering the school's halls without any clear direction, that was them looking for a swat team. The long distance shootouts from the library windows just wasn't doing it for them.

HanShotFirst wrote:

I've always theorized that during the latter part of the massacre, when they seemed to be just aimlessly wandering the school's halls without any clear direction,  that was them looking for a swat team. The long distance shootouts from the library windows just wasn't doing it for them.

I chalk it up to literally nothing going as planned that day from lack of a solid plan b.
I think by the time a half hour went by they realized no one was coming in for awhile.
After they left the library they were just walking aimlessly, almost as if they didn't expect to even still be alive.
At that point the only thing they could do was to try to cause as much damage as they could, by trying to detonate the bombs.

I assume multiple factors played a role: the idea of getting shot at and suffering a non fatal wound is scary, especially to these boys. There's a reason the attack was primarily planed as a bombing (kill many in an instant without you being in a really danger yourself) and why they chose defenseless targets in the first place. That being said, they did engage the police but from relative safety (inside the library, good concealment & cover) but Eric did briefly engage the first officer on scene from outside in the open so of the two I'd say he had calmer nerves. Also, they were running low on ammunition by the time they committed suicide and the adrenaline would have been wearing off, not to mention Eric would have been in considerable pain from his broken nose.

By the time they off'd themselves I imagine both boys were exhausted, nauseated, disappointed, scared and dazed. They may even have began to feel remorse/regret. All things considered, the only options left were to end it all in a painless instant, rather than face the hail of bullets from police and risk suffering or surviving.

Do u believe eric breaking his nose quickened the shooting??

Nah, I'm sure the adrenaline prevented him from feeling it fully for awhile. He didn't seem to phased by it in the cafeteria after. I just think its one of many reasons they killed themselves when they did. I do wonder, though, if its one of the reasons they suddenly stopped shooting all the targets they had left in the library and instead walked around the school shooting inanimate objects and merely taunting students. It may have been enough to snap him out of the killing spree mode and bring him back to reality enough to realize just how grim the situation was, if that makes any sense.

Bruce Wayne wrote:

Do u believe eric breaking his nose quickened the shooting??

No not at all. Why would it? I doubt he really thought much about his nose at all. More important things were happening. It probably only took him out of the shooting for a few seconds. He had to have had so much adrenaline that he really didn't notice it too much. Though, I thought he only got a bloody nose from hitting himself with the gun not a broken nose. Maybe I am wrong about that.

Well I only say that because so many things failed during that shooting. Yes they killed people which was one of there objectives. But it didn’t last long. They realized a lot wrong during the massacre before the pulled it on themselves. And Im not saying they felt bad i mean a lot of stuff they wanted to happen didn’t happen.The bombs didn’t work, the people who they killed really wasn’t supposed to be killed the jocks were, Eric breaks his nose, they start running out of ammunition, the cops pull up, and they realize it’s all going down. And while this all going down their adrenaline is going down. Just imagine yourself going through all of that. (Btw Eric broke his nose from kickback from the shotgun when he said “Peekaboo” and then killing a girl.)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I completely agree on the fact it snapped them into reality but if your plan is failing and you can’t go back what else can you do??? You can either speed it or give up they kinda did both

it's entirely possible that they didn't feel up to the task. It's not like they had practiced their shooting skills in order to fight a whole team of armed people before... Also I think that the idea of ending their lives in a self-imposed suicide appealed more to them rather than being wasted by the police.

Answer: they did

Eric shot at them 3 or 4 times, and I am convinced wandering the halls was about looking for cops, meaning "waiting for cops", along with trying to make the bomb go off, is exactly what took place between the last murder and their suicides.

And no heinrich, while I understand without the following info all that's left is grasping at straws, and it's something people often say, but Corey wasn't the last victim at 11:35 because they "snapped out of it", but because that's when the second bomb was set to go off and thus when they knew the second bomb did not work - and left to shoot at it. Trying to make the bomb explode and killing yourself isn't snapping out of it. Turning yourself in to police would be.  Try to tell Evan Todd they snapped out of it.

cakeman wrote:

Answer: they did

Eric shot at them 3 or 4 times, and I am convinced wandering the halls was about looking for cops, meaning "waiting for cops", along with trying to make the bomb go off, is exactly what took place between the last murder and their suicides.

And no heinrich, while I understand without the following info all that's left is grasping at straws, and it's something people often say, but Corey wasn't the last victim at 11:35 because they "snapped out of it", but because that's when the second bomb was set to go off and thus when they knew the second bomb did not work - and left to shoot at it. Trying to make the bomb explode and killing yourself isn't snapping out of it. Turning yourself in to police would be.  Try to tell Evan Todd they snapped out of it.

I'll clarify, obviously they didn't snap out of it in the sense that they immediately lost all interest in killing and became pacifists lol. You're right, they did continue to kill for a brief period after the broken nose. I do think, however, that their whole plan going tits up and the adrenaline wearing off (adrenaline rush doesn't last long) combined with the the physical pain Eric was beginning to experience really drove the reality of the situation home to them. These two had been living in a fantasy land that the two of them and dreamt up together and fueled in one another. Once they realized they weren't as smart as they thought (their bombs didn't work) and that killing and injuring people is horrific and not at all like it is in the movies. I don't believe the two were callous enough to not be phased by the mutilation and gore, pleas for mercy, cries of agony, screams of terror, and the smell of piss, blood and gunpowder had no effective on them. Also, I don't know how much experience you've had with firearms but if you've ever fired them extensively in one sitting with no hearing protection it has a pretty brutal impact on you, not only are you deafened but almost dazed afterwards, its not pleasant. All these factors I think weighed heavily on them more and more as the minutes went by I can't imagine what was going through their heads by the time they decided to leave the library, but I highly suspect (and the evidence seems to suggest) that they lost their appetite for murder.

I don't think they were roaming the halls looking for police because from the library they could see that the cops had a perimeter set up and weren't pushing the building. Additionally, active shooter scenarios were practically unheard of at the time and the standard response the cops have today (immediately move towards & neutralize the shooter(s)) wasn't a thing. I doubt they really anticipated police to make entry that early in the shooting spree. That isn't to say they weren't prepared to engage them if they did see them, but I don't think they were looking for them. If they had been looking for a final firefight with the cops they wouldn't have kept wasting what little ammo they had left during this time.

As for the second bomb being timed to go of at 11:35 - I thought both cafeteria bombs were supposed to go off at the same time? I could very well be mistaken about that, just seems odd to be that they'd put two bombs in the same room set to go off at different times. Seems they would have thought/known that the first explosion could either set off the second bomb or damage it enough that it would no longer detonate when it was supposed to. Not to mention that the cafeteria would have been evacuated of survivors after the initial blast.

Also, I don't think them shooting at the bombs from the cafeteria stairs was a suicide attempt as most believe. You'd have to be pretty naive to think that propane tanks would explode with enough force to kill you from that distance.

Heinrich94 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Answer: they did

Eric shot at them 3 or 4 times, and I am convinced wandering the halls was about looking for cops, meaning "waiting for cops", along with trying to make the bomb go off, is exactly what took place between the last murder and their suicides.

And no heinrich, while I understand without the following info all that's left is grasping at straws, and it's something people often say, but Corey wasn't the last victim at 11:35 because they "snapped out of it", but because that's when the second bomb was set to go off and thus when they knew the second bomb did not work - and left to shoot at it. Trying to make the bomb explode and killing yourself isn't snapping out of it. Turning yourself in to police would be.  Try to tell Evan Todd they snapped out of it.

I'll clarify, obviously they didn't snap out of it in the sense that they immediately lost all interest in killing and became pacifists lol. You're right, they did continue to kill for a brief period after the broken nose. I do think, however, that their whole plan going tits up and the adrenaline wearing off (adrenaline rush doesn't last long) combined with the the physical pain Eric was beginning to experience really drove the reality of the situation home to them. These two had been living in a fantasy land that the two of them and dreamt up together and fueled in one another. Once they realized they weren't as smart as they thought (their bombs didn't work) and that killing and injuring people is horrific and not at all like it is in the movies. I don't believe the two were callous enough to not be phased by the mutilation and gore, pleas for mercy, cries of agony, screams of terror, and the smell of piss, blood and gunpowder had no effective on them. Also, I don't know how much experience you've had with firearms but if you've ever fired them extensively in one sitting with no hearing protection it has a pretty brutal impact on you, not only are you deafened but almost dazed afterwards, its not pleasant. All these factors I think weighed heavily on them more and more as the minutes went by I can't imagine what was going through their heads by the time they decided to leave the library, but I highly suspect (and the evidence seems to suggest) that they lost their appetite for murder.

I don't think they were roaming the halls looking for police because from the library they could see that the cops had a perimeter set up and weren't pushing the building. Additionally, active shooter scenarios were practically unheard of at the time and the standard response the cops have today (immediately move towards & neutralize the shooter(s)) wasn't a thing. I doubt they really anticipated police to make entry that early in the shooting spree. That isn't to say they weren't prepared to engage them if they did see them, but I don't think they were looking for them. If they had been looking for a final firefight with the cops they wouldn't have kept wasting what little ammo they had left during this time.

As for the second bomb being timed to go of at 11:35 - I thought both cafeteria bombs were supposed to go off at the same time? I could very well be mistaken about that, just seems odd to be that they'd put two bombs in the same room set to go off at different times. Seems they would have thought/known that the first explosion could either set off the second bomb or damage it enough that it would no longer detonate when it was supposed to. Not to mention that the cafeteria would have been evacuated of survivors after the initial blast.

Also, I don't think them shooting at the bombs from the cafeteria stairs was a suicide attempt as most believe. You'd have to be pretty naive to think that propane tanks would explode with enough force to kill you from that distance.

While I suppose it's good if you are interested, it's nothing I haven't heard before a million times. The orthodox story says both bombs were supposed to go off at 11:17, yes, but it's nonsense. I can give several different reasons why and have done so numerous times; but, very simply, they said and thought everybody in the library would die from a bomb during the library massacre, so "they started shooting because the bombs failed" can not be correct.

I think probably JeffCo knew it and feared copycats so gave the public a confused MO. Copycats are also the reason they give for no Basement Tapes, yet when asked to elaborate act as if their talking to the camera will hypnotize you, which contradicts their releasing e. g. Hitmen for Hire, but not if that's BS and they can't say "because they discuss the real MO".

The only explanation possible for what they said in the library is they thought the second bomb was still in play.  Pictures of the bomb show it set for the 35th minute. That's why they stopped shooting people at 11:35.  Their bombs couldn't be set for "11:17", only 11:20, so they start shooting at 11:19 because they thought it was about to work, before Dylan checked. Dylan also said the massacre would be "the most nerve racking 15 minutes" of his life. You won't find another explanation for 15 minutes better than first bomb 11:20 and second bomb 11:35, or any at all.  

This also means they must have shot people in the library hoping the cops would rush in and get blown up too, hence the cops stayed outside. They would have heard the phone call saying the library was about to go. It was not because they were confused that it wasn't a hostage situation, in my opinion, so the "active shooter" stuff is irrelevant. Regardless, that they thought everybody in the library was going to die in the explosion is inescapable.

The "broken nose" has nothing to do with it.  "And the evidence seems to suggest" no, there's literally none, there's just the same storytelling given ad nauseum. Nobody comes up with this theory themselves. A damaged nose +  pretending they think bombs failed at 11:17  + deaf does not equal "stop shooting at 11:35". They were callous enough; that they weren't is a coping strategy bordering on their worship as anti-heroes as far as I'm concerned. They never "snapped out of it"; they were fully committed.

In fact, I would say the adrenaline probably made the nose not all that painful. I've certainly had my nose bleed from impact in far less adrenaline-inducing situations and not had soreness until the day after. Without needing to buy JeffCo's crazy story, I doubt anyone would appeal to a nose bleed ruining the plan. He doesn't seem light-headed on the CCTV, for instance.

And I can't disagree more with the points about two bombs, why would two bombs set for different times not make sense? It makes a lot more sense than 2 bombs at the same time. Why even have 2, then?  Why exactly can be disputed, as a back up or to further take out first responders probably. The diversions were surely set up that way, as they let slip that one had motion detection, which only makes sense if the first one was a timer, and the second was to blow up in the face of those responding.

And no, I don't think they could see all around the school from the library windows, or would have known that because cops aren't entering on that side that they didn't enter somewhere else. There's no reason to think they weren't as surprised as everybody else that the cops did not enter, and they wanted dead cops as well as suicide by cop. They could well have been firing in case one was around the corner. Eric even waves when they come back to the cafeteria with guns drawn, which he wrote was the signal for "cops sighted", so cops were on his mind.

You'd have to be as naive as a teenager who plays first person shooter video games, like they were, to think shooting at the bombs would make them explode, and it's the height of absurdity to say they shot them for some other reason. I don't think they decided on target practice with the bombs at that point, and I don't think Dylan threw a molotov cocktail at it for no reason. Very obviously, it was an attempt to make it explode, and you can quote them that they thought it would bring the library down, so it certainly would've killed them standing a few feet away.

Heinrich94 wrote:

they did continue to kill for a brief period after the broken nose.

This is a little bit disingenuous, because most of the people who died in the library were killed after Eric broke his nose.

QuestionMark wrote:

Heinrich94 wrote:

they did continue to kill for a brief period after the broken nose.

This is a little bit disingenuous, because most of the people who died in the library were killed after Eric broke his nose.

Not to rag on heinrich, as he's just repeating what he was told, but to those who quadruple down when I try to explain that's all they are doing:

Eric may have said he was OK after hurting his nose and our best witness Bree might have said the first thing Dylan shouted in the library is "everybody stand up, we're gonna blow this library up" but what Eric meant was "My nose got driven into my brain so hard I'm gonna tell Bree everybody is going to die when we blow up the school even though ten minutes ago I "began shooting because the bombs failed".'

I need to stop reading their minds with things like:

Premise 1) If they thought both bombs failed at 11:17, then they would not have said a library full of students was going to die from an explosion after 11:30
Premise 2) Fact: They both said repeatedly that a library full of students was going to die from an explosion after 11:30
Conclusion: They did not think both bombs failed at 11:17  (via modus tollens)

or

Premise 1) If they had moved on to "Plan B" to shoot everybody they could instead of waiting for the cafeteria to explode and people to flee outside, then they would have started shooting in the cafeteria full of victims.
Premise 2) Fact: They began shooting outside
Conclusion: They had not moved on to Plan B. (via modus tollens)

and start not-reading-their-minds with just-so stories about how Eric broke his nose and so went insane but also felt really sadface about the massacre and so Dylan followed and so they shoot several more people before they stopped shooting at exactly 11:35.

Cakeman, that's a completely new but interesting theory to me and I'll have to do a bit more research and thinking before I can properly reply. There anything in particular you can point me towards to help me understand? Also, do you have like timestamps or anything of when Eric uses the signal indicating police presence in the cafeteria footage? I've seen the footage countless of times, but to me it just looked like they were talking/yelling to each other and gesturing with their hands as people do. I'd have to see the particular moment you mention to really focus on.

Before I dig into it though a few things come to mind straightaway, namely how can you be sure that the police were aware of the bombs and thus didn't make entry? I understand that Eric and Dylans comments were recorded on the 911 call, but I'd think that it would have been quiet enough and drowned out among the rest of the noise that the 911 operator wouldn't have heard it during the chaos and relayed it to officers on scene. I'd assume that was only discovered during the aftermath when the FBI or whoever thoroughly examined the recording of the call. Also, my assumption as you why they were telling students in the library that they'd all die from a bomb was them just posturing/scaring the shit out of everybody. They may well have believed the bomb plan could still be salvaged, but I never saw any reason to believe an explosion was imminent without their intervention downstairs in the cafeteria. I don't feel both boys were prepared to risk serious injuring/maiming from an explosion since instant, painless death was by no means a certainty from a bomb. I'd say that's why they didn't just go back into the cafeteria and approach the bombs before commencing the shooting, and why Dylan only took a looksy from a safe distance when he separated from Eric. As for the "15 minutes" part Dylan mentions in his writing, I always thought he was talking about the time in between planting the bombs and when they were supposed to detonate. Like I said though, I'll look into all this further because your theory is very interesting

Also, QuestionMark, I was being disingenuous too when I suggested the killing was brief after the broken nose. What I should have said is all the aforementioned factors demoralized them to the point where they eventually just left the library and wandered almost as if in a daze/dream. If that makes any sense.

Heinrich94 wrote:

Cakeman, that's a completely new but interesting theory to me and I'll have to do a bit more research and thinking before I can properly reply. There anything in particular you can point me towards to help me understand? Also, do you have like timestamps or anything of when Eric uses the signal indicating police presence in the cafeteria footage? I've seen the footage countless of times, but to me it just looked like they were talking/yelling to each other and gesturing with their hands as people do. I'd have to see the particular moment you mention to really focus on.

I could maybe pm you something more detailed, or you can see my longer post in this thread here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Somebody once posted a nice close up to show Eric was indeed waving. I wasn't sure it was that either, but I had already thought the 'wandering the halls' must have been about police, and waving being the signal for cops sighted sealed it for me. That was a private video though, and with all the recent youtube purges, the best one I found is here, at about 20 secs: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Quote :

Before I dig into it though a few things come to mind straightaway, namely how can you be sure that the police were aware of the bombs and thus didn't make entry? I understand that Eric and Dylans comments were recorded on the 911 call, but I'd think that it would have been quiet enough and drowned out among the rest of the noise that the 911 operator wouldn't have heard it during the chaos and relayed it to officers on scene. I'd assume that was only discovered during the aftermath when the FBI or whoever thoroughly examined the recording of the call.

I wouldn't say I'm sure to the same degree I am sure about the second bomb, but I am fairly confident. For one, they never tried to negotiate as if they really thought it was a hostage situation, and the idea of a murder spree was not brand new. Second, they had the phone call, telling them this was a murder spree and not a hostage situation. They at least had Patti telling them this, and Dylan was shouting that the library was gonna blow. And people were dead or wounded outside. Third, the CNN/JeffCo CD released in 2000 says the diversions had motion detection, and that this was relayed to the cops at the school. Also for example Sheriff Stone said he didn't want to lose men by sending them in. Also the fire truck by Rachel and Richard was not just cover but supposedly to breech the door and take the brunt of any possible explosion, but got stuck in the mud. Several clues point to the fact that it wasn't because of some out-dated "hostage protocol", but that it was bomb protocol. They feared if they rushed in they would set off a bomb.

Also, I forget how early they had their journals and tapes and stuff saying they wanted to kill cops and whether it was during the massacre, but I remember it was pretty early. Regardless, everybody in the library was supposed to die in the explosion of the second bomb. So, why shoot them as well? So cops rush in and get killed in the explosion too is the only thing I can think of.  Also, very clearly, the massacre starts at 11:19 because the first bomb was to go off at 11:20, so I find it significant they enter the library - after much dicking around and tossing pipe bombs into the cafeteria (trying to set off the first bomb), at 11:29.  Didn't want too much time for cops to rush in and not deal with the blast. Just five minutes of shooting before cops rush in and die as well.

Quote :

Also, my assumption as you why they were telling students in the library that they'd all die from a bomb was them just posturing/scaring the shit out of everybody.

Well, respectfully, that's absurd. They had built bombs and placed them in the cafeteria under the library.  It was not just talk. Eric didn't shoot Bree because they were going to blow up the school anyway. Dylan told John Savage to run. He didn't tell Eric not to shoot him. He told him to run out of the library, why? Because everybody in the library was going to die. They said it probably 10 other times. And abandoning your assumption means the above makes perfect sense, as well as Corey being the last to die at 11:35, telling Evan he's going to live in contrast to telling Bree she was going to die once 11:35 has passed, and quite possibly Daniel Mauser striking back at Eric when he thinks he's gonna die from the bomb anyway.  None of that makes any sense if you pretend they must be lying because both bombs failed at 11:17. None of it.  Assume they were telling the truth and tell me what you come up with. If they are telling the truth then "they start to shoot everybody when they noticed the bombs failed" is false, isn't it?

Quote :

They may well have believed the bomb plan could still be salvaged, but I never saw any reason to believe an explosion was imminent without their intervention downstairs in the cafeteria. I don't feel both boys were prepared to risk serious injuring/maiming from an explosion since instant, painless death was by no means a certainty from a bomb. I'd say that's why they didn't just go back into the cafeteria and approach the bombs before commencing the shooting, and why Dylan only took a looksy from a safe distance when he separated from Eric.

Except it makes zero sense for Dylan to be scared of being maimed let alone even look when on this interpretation they have already begun shooting and the reason they begin shooting is because they realized the bombs failed. And it makes even less sense to fear getting maimed before the library massacre but not after. So, I don't think you'd really say that.  That's not a why at all. 

They don't leave the library until 11:36, and are telling everybody they're all going to die from a bomb before Dylan tells Evan he's going to live. The pictures of the bomb show it set to the 35th minute. Dylan said it would last 15 minutes. There's your reason. When it wasn't 11:35 yet, an explosion is imminent. When 11:35 passes, try and make it explode.  

If they already thought it had failed, why aren't they trying that sooner instead of wasting time in the library lying about the bomb? Awfully bizarre to be lying about the bomb exploding and then go down to try and make it explode. The bomb set to 11:35 is a very easy solution to these contradictions.

You seemed to say you believed their "intervention downstairs" was to cause an explosion. It's absurd to say it wasn't. So the only question is about suicide. Had it exploded with full force instantly, which is what happens when you shoot one in a video game, they would certainly be dead and probably pretty quick. Then again, once it catches fire, they run away from it, and do the wandering the halls bit. So maybe they expected it to take a minute to heat up and explode. Maybe they planned on the former then realized the latter was happening and because of the maiming you suggest got out of there and went to look for suicide by cop.

Quote :

As for the "15 minutes" part Dylan mentions in his writing, I always thought he was talking about the time in between planting the bombs and when they were supposed to detonate.

Well that's 20 minutes or more, and surely the massacre itself is the most nerve-racking part.

Quote :

What I should have said is all the aforementioned factors demoralized them to the point where they eventually just left the library and wandered almost as if in a daze/dream. If that makes any sense.

Seems like a just-so story rather than an inference. It's a sufficient condition - I guess that could be the case, but not a necessary one; how do we know another, better theory doesn't explain the same facts? How does that explain stopping at 11:35?  And I don't see how they are "in a daze/dream". They don't seem to be like that on the CCTV at all. Does Dylan seem "demoralized" when threatening Evan? or both on the CCTV? Raising the drink seems pretty triumphal.

holy shit cakeman you drop serious knowledge, a lot of what you say makes sense. im curious what you think think of brooks' statements and timeline regarding talking to eric ? does it add up ?

I don't know. I tend to assume it happened but was always skeptical given it seems straight out of a movie and Brooks often lies.  It's right up there with "they changed to plan B in one minute and went to the stairs" and "they started shooting when the bombs failed, but told everyone in the library they would be killed with a bomb" for things I've always found curious, and unlike those two, which I now think I've settled as false, I am not sure about Brooks story. Some days I don't think it happened. If somebody told me to get out of here and go home, I'd certainly ask why. If I was so scared that I did leave, I wouldn't keep quiet about it until people start dying.

As for the timeline, I'm not sure how that's an issue. Maybe if you believe JeffCo that the bombs were planted at 11:14. But if you believe they were planted at 11, and they left to "gear up" and got back when class got out at 11:10 or so, then the timeline makes sense. Though, I don't think any witnesses recall Brooks talking to Eric, and some do recall Eric waiting up on the stairs at around 11:10, but I don't remember them looking at their watch so much as estimating the time.

Also, most seem to agree that Brooks is lying somewhat about how close he was to Eric and Dylan during senior year. Well, if that's true, then it seems to support his story about his conversation with Eric, since the alternative seems to be that he was so close to him that he knew the massacre was coming and got out of there.

And as far I am aware, his story has never changed, and it does fit the facts. Then again, I'm not really sure if he ever told his story with the details that fit the facts before those were made public, i. e. that Eric was not wearing his hat, and he parked in the wrong parking lot.

Then of course there's the possibility it happened but not as he says, that there was a conversation but a different one. I can say if it did happen I don't really buy either of "Eric just loved Brooks then and didn't want to kill him" or "shooting Brooks would have ruined the plan".  I think it was "he had ten minutes until the first bomb exploded and whoever was in his way talking his ear off needed to fuck off."

I've always assumed that if Brooks isn't lying about that exchange that something happened that he's leaving out. I can imagine he could have seen something, like Eric's arsenal, or Eric was a bit more specific and that Brooks left without calling 911 or anything because deep down he hated the school as much as Eric.. and he may have had a brief flash of the celebrity status he could achieve having been the last person to have spoken to Eric besides Dylan.

It's possible. I tend to think the falsehoods surrounding the stairs, the second bomb, the bomb protocol rather than hostage protocol, and so forth are more than just incompetence, but hiding information from potential copycats. Same with Basement Tapes, etc. Maybe Brooks isn't allowed to say more for that reason. Then again, he didn't seem to be best buds with JeffCo, so if this was the case presumably it was the FBI or something telling him.

Also, risky for him to lie on the 911 call before he knew Eric and Dylan were dead. What if Eric survived and could have said the exchange never happened?

Honestly, I can't imagine any amount of intimidation from authorities shutting that family up lol. But I get what you mean, the fear of copycats seems to have driven much of that investigation and aftermath.

Yeah that's the one snag with that little theory of mine, but then again you could say that him calling 911 so quickly was him trying to cover his own ass and get his story out before Eric's. Would be impossible to prove who was telling the truth after, and Brooks could just say her Eric's hated me ever since the windscreen thing so he's just trying to ruin my life now

Well, presumably he couldn't have used the excuse that Eric hated him for why he must have really said he liked him and to go home. But I do agree that there's something fishy about the story, and I suppose he could have used Eric being a murderer to discredit anything he said after, were he to have lived.

I think that they originally planned death by cop. Since the bombs failed, their plans changed. They also didn't have a plan B either. I honestly think after the bombs didn't go off they were just winging it.