Did Eric and Dylan use LSD?

I have not been on any LSD trips myself. ( I am afraid of mind bending drugs )
Does anyone know if E/D ever used LSD?
I think Eric used Cocaine a few times and was once sold fake cocaine! 
E/D smoked cigs and weed and alcohol. 
I'm not sure about the LSD though ??

What makes you think that Dylan and Eric used LSD and that Eric used cocaine and sold fake coke?

Jenn wrote:

What makes you think that Dylan and Eric used LSD and that Eric used cocaine and sold fake coke?

Ms. Sydney Jo Keating ( CHS staff ):12,277: Last year someone sold fake cocaine to EH.

Angel Pytlinksi : pp 10,193 : EH's Father accused him of using LSD.

Jennifer Cudworth :20,028 :friend of EH ,sold ( or try to sell ) cocaine to him last year.

I didn't say that EH sold to someone fake cocaine, someone ( supposedly ) sold fake cocaine to Eric.

I don't know of any additional info or references on this but I do know that LSD was a very popular recreational drug for teenagers during the 90's. There was a lot of it around and a lot of kids were taking it.

Eric and Dylan's co-worker, Angel Pytlinksi, says that Eric told her that his father accused him of being under the influence of LSD. (JC-001-010193)


I know this next part may be controversial to some, but if you actually look into Zoloft, Luvox, and other SSRIs, you will learn that they are pretty much hallucinogens.

The majority of them were created by Eli Lilly, who actually got a patent for their own synthesis of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD).

At the core of their synthesis, these SSRIs are all quite similar to LSD, and one another. Look into the manner in which Eli Lilly promoted LSD in the 1950s. They were calling it a "wonder drug" that was going to aid in the advancement of psychological research, and help cure depression, alcoholism, and so on. It was even prescribed to pregnant women.

It was disastrous, and it is now stigmatized for the most part, as it should be. These other SSRIs are milder overall, but they create the same effect in most people who take them over time.

After researching this from many different angles, when I read this statement again, it did not remotely surprise me that Eric's father thought he was tripping. He probably was...but not from "dropping a tab" of LSD in the "typical" sense, but from either the Zoloft or Luvox (he was on Zoloft first) that the "mental health professional" assigned to him had prescribed.

Would there even be any way to prove questions like this one? Sure, people could say that Eric used cocaine or that Eric was sold fake cocaine and that Dylan and Eric did LSD, but really, there would be no proof one way or the other. At the time Dylan and Eric died, there were no drugs in their system, except for the SSRI's that Eric took.

Personally, I don't think Dylan and Eric wasted money on drugs. They were using most of their money to plan NBK and I don't recall any of their closest friends ever saying that the boys did any kind of hardcore drugs. I am sure the people they hung out with would know best anyways.

I personally don't think either of them did actual LSD or cocaine, either.

I have never seen anything of a trustworthy nature that indicates this, either. Not as of this time, at least.

I just had a quick glance at the sources mentioned.
I'd come across Angel Pytlinski's reference before. "Mrs Pytlinski said that Harris was upset with his dad, because his dad accused him of using LSD." pg(10193) It's a shame she doesn't go into more depth with this statement and we don't really know when the accusation was made.

Jennifer Cudworth, from what i understand says her sister Sarah was a friend of Harris. The report says she "sold him cocaine or attempted to do so last year" (not very specific) "She wears a trench coat and hangs around others who carry Tec-9's and has shot one. It later says "may have more info but will not tell." To be honest in my opinion everything she says sounds a little off. I'd be more interested to know who these people are who carry Tec-9's, this report makes it sound like there's more than one of them. pg(20028)

This particular Sydney Keating interview (i believe she was interviewed several times) just seems very questionable to me. She says "REDACTED was reported to have sold "fake cocaine" last year to Eric Harris, Chris Morris and Eric Dutroe. " pg(12277) So if this event took place maybe it wasn't even Eric Harris who was buying this "fake cocaine." Maybe others feel different but i'm just unsure about this whole interview with Keating. It appears to me that the latter part of this interview (not all, but mostly) is a bunch of statements that are possibly rumors, her own opinion or hearsay. In the same interview she does call a former student a "loser" and Brooks Brown is described as a "Total Wacko."

Again this is just my opinion, but I don't feel Keating and Cudworth's statements are particularly reliable.

I feel like i sound like i'm attempting to discredit all of these witness statements, but i do feel they are questionable. Personally I think if either of the boys took drugs on more than one occasion we would probably know more about it. I suspect if Eric was using any drugs or had even tried anything he would be the first to write it down in his journal in order to make himself look more bad-ass.

You know, queenfarooq, I knew I'd read people saying this about the "fake cocaine", but I honestly don't feel it is remotely credible, either. I am aware that I wasn't there and really have no "right" to say such things, but I didn't buy it when I first read it, and I still don't by any means.

tfsa47090 wrote:

You know, queenfarooq, I knew I'd read people saying this about the "fake cocaine", but I honestly don't feel it is remotely credible, either. I am aware that I wasn't there and really have no "right" to say such things, but I didn't buy it when I first read it, and I still don't by any means.

Yeah that's what i was trying to get at, the "fake cocaine" incident doesn't seem credible at all, and to be honest neither do some of the other claims in the interview. It just sounds like some kind of rumor. When Keating says "REDACTED was reported to have..." it certainly sounds like something she just heard about.
I think i'd need some more substantial evidence in order to consider whether Eric was taking or did take cocaine or "fake cocaine" (especially more than once). I haven't really looked into it in that much depth, but if some more reliable sources came forward then it may clear things up a little.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Eric and Dylan's co-worker, Angel Pytlinksi, says that Eric told her that his father accused him of being under the influence of LSD. (JC-001-010193)


I know this next part may be controversial to some, but if you actually look into Zoloft, Luvox, and other SSRIs, you will learn that they are pretty much hallucinogens.

The majority of them were created by Eli Lilly, who actually got a patent for their own synthesis of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD).

SSRIs are hallucinogen? I seriously doubt that.
What you probably mean, that they have similar chemical structures to LSD, Mescaline and Psylocibine? That may be correct, but the reason for that is, that they affect the Serotonine-metabolism and thus, have to imitate Serotonine (I don't know if SSRIs really work that way) and Serotonine has a similar structure to LSD, Mescaline and Psylocibine.
Not every substance that is similar to Serotonine causes Hallucinations! And I never heard, that SSRIs are known for causing them.

Or what did you mean by saying, that SSRIs are hallucinogens?


And by the way, I don't believe that Eric and Dylan ever used any other drugs than Alcohol and Cannabis, because they very likely would have talked or bragged about it.

Hale-Bopp wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

Eric and Dylan's co-worker, Angel Pytlinksi, says that Eric told her that his father accused him of being under the influence of LSD. (JC-001-010193)


I know this next part may be controversial to some, but if you actually look into Zoloft, Luvox, and other SSRIs, you will learn that they are pretty much hallucinogens.

The majority of them were created by Eli Lilly, who actually got a patent for their own synthesis of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD).

SSRIs are hallucinogen? I seriously doubt that.
What you probably mean, that they have similar chemical structures to LSD, Mescaline and Psylocibine? That may be correct, but the reason for that is, that they affect the Serotonine-metabolism and thus, have to imitate Serotonine (I don't know if SSRIs really work that way) and Serotonine has a similar structure to LSD, Mescaline and Psylocibine.
Not every substance that is similar to Serotonine causes Hallucinations! And I never heard, that SSRIs are known for causing them.

Or what did you mean by saying, that SSRIs are hallucinogens?


And by the way, I don't believe that Eric and Dylan ever used any other drugs than Alcohol and Cannabis, because they very likely would have talked or bragged about it.

Is Valkyr an SSRI?

Maybe e/d wanted to fit in at a party and did a line of coke? We will never know. I couldn't see them trying LSD if they didn't enjoy weed. Didn't Dylan say weed was a waste of time? I think Eric said online he liked getting stoned and go bowling? Was that true? Where did I read that at?

K.F.C. wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

Eric and Dylan's co-worker, Angel Pytlinksi, says that Eric told her that his father accused him of being under the influence of LSD. (JC-001-010193)


I know this next part may be controversial to some, but if you actually look into Zoloft, Luvox, and other SSRIs, you will learn that they are pretty much hallucinogens.

The majority of them were created by Eli Lilly, who actually got a patent for their own synthesis of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD).

SSRIs are hallucinogen? I seriously doubt that.
What you probably mean, that they have similar chemical structures to LSD, Mescaline and Psylocibine? That may be correct, but the reason for that is, that they affect the Serotonine-metabolism and thus, have to imitate Serotonine (I don't know if SSRIs really work that way) and Serotonine has a similar structure to LSD, Mescaline and Psylocibine.
Not every substance that is similar to Serotonine causes Hallucinations! And I never heard, that SSRIs are known for causing them.

Or what did you mean by saying, that SSRIs are hallucinogens?


And by the way, I don't believe that Eric and Dylan ever used any other drugs than Alcohol and Cannabis, because they very likely would have talked or bragged about it.

Is Valkyr an SSRI?

I have no clue.

dextro wrote:

Didn't Dylan say weed was a waste of time?

Yes, but that was during an interview with the law, while his parents were around. It would be pretty bizarre, in that situation if he would have talked about how he liked Weed and that he wants to do it again.
According to Vanessa Grimes, E+D talked a lot about smoking weed, so I don't think Dylan was to such an extent disappointed by it.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Eric and Dylan's co-worker, Angel Pytlinksi, says that Eric told her that his father accused him of being under the influence of LSD. (JC-001-010193)


I know this next part may be controversial to some, but if you actually look into Zoloft, Luvox, and other SSRIs, you will learn that they are pretty much hallucinogens.

The majority of them were created by Eli Lilly, who actually got a patent for their own synthesis of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD).

At the core of their synthesis, these SSRIs are all quite similar to LSD, and one another. Look into the manner in which Eli Lilly promoted LSD in the 1950s. They were calling it a "wonder drug" that was going to aid in the advancement of psychological research, and help cure depression, alcoholism, and so on. It was even prescribed to pregnant women.

It was disastrous, and it is now stigmatized for the most part, as it should be. These other SSRIs are milder overall, but they create the same effect in most people who take them over time.

After researching this from many different angles, when I read this statement again, it did not remotely surprise me that Eric's father thought he was tripping. He probably was...but not from "dropping a tab" of LSD in the "typical" sense, but from either the Zoloft or Luvox (he was on Zoloft first) that the "mental health professional" assigned to him had prescribed.

If Mr Harris thought Eric was " tripping " due to the side effects from the antidepressants Eric was prescribed ,why did Eric continue to take them? Why did Mr Harris allow Eric to take them?
How could Eric ( or anyone ) be able to function whilst under those kind of side effects?
If i was having those side effects i wouldn't drive or go to work because i would be a danger to myself and to others.
There are a million " WHYS " i could ask Mr Harris and that is one of them

rik75 wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

Eric and Dylan's co-worker, Angel Pytlinksi, says that Eric told her that his father accused him of being under the influence of LSD. (JC-001-010193)


I know this next part may be controversial to some, but if you actually look into Zoloft, Luvox, and other SSRIs, you will learn that they are pretty much hallucinogens.

The majority of them were created by Eli Lilly, who actually got a patent for their own synthesis of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD).

At the core of their synthesis, these SSRIs are all quite similar to LSD, and one another. Look into the manner in which Eli Lilly promoted LSD in the 1950s. They were calling it a "wonder drug" that was going to aid in the advancement of psychological research, and help cure depression, alcoholism, and so on. It was even prescribed to pregnant women.

It was disastrous, and it is now stigmatized for the most part, as it should be. These other SSRIs are milder overall, but they create the same effect in most people who take them over time.

After researching this from many different angles, when I read this statement again, it did not remotely surprise me that Eric's father thought he was tripping. He probably was...but not from "dropping a tab" of LSD in the "typical" sense, but from either the Zoloft or Luvox (he was on Zoloft first) that the "mental health professional" assigned to him had prescribed.

If Mr Harris thought Eric was " tripping " due to the side effects from the antidepressants Eric was prescribed ,why did Eric continue to take them? Why did Mr Harris allow Eric to take them?
How could Eric ( or anyone ) be able to function whilst under those kind of side effects?
If i was having those side effects i wouldn't drive or go to work because i would be a danger to myself and to others.
There are a million " WHYS " i could ask Mr Harris and that is one of them

I'm not really sure myself if Mr Harris thought Eric was "trippin" due to the side effects of his medication, if he thought this then why would he accuse Eric of taking LSD?
Mr Harris could have accused Eric of taking LSD for a variety of other reasons. It is a possibility on this one occasion we know about, that Eric may have experienced some kind of side effect from his medication that mimicked a similar side effect to that of LSD. But unfortunately we don't know much more about this incident.

Hale-Bopp wrote:

SSRIs are hallucinogen? I seriously doubt that.
What you probably mean, that they have similar chemical structures to LSD, Mescaline and Psylocibine? That may be correct, but the reason for that is, that they affect the Serotonine-metabolism and thus, have to imitate Serotonine (I don't know if SSRIs really work that way) and Serotonine has a similar structure to LSD, Mescaline and Psylocibine.
Not every substance that is similar to Serotonine causes Hallucinations! And I never heard, that SSRIs are known for causing them.

Or what did you mean by saying, that SSRIs are hallucinogens?

Research "SSRI hallucinations", "SSRI psychosis" and/or look into different names of specific SSRIs, like Prozac, Zoloft, Luvox, Paxil and so on. A large majority of them list hallucinations as a side effect. As most everyone knows, people who take LSD, PCP, and other natural hallucinogenic/psychedelic variants are often described as being "psychotic" or "out of their minds" while under the influence of them.


Of course they are not going to tell you precisely what they are. Initially, in the 1950s, they didn't want to tell people the truth about lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD). PCP was also something that these drug companies were promoting as "helpful" decades ago until they had to witness and deal with the utterly disastrous effects. These are BILLION dollar industries who have no interest in changing the financial flow that is endlessly coming to them by telling EVERYONE they need to be on these drugs. A large majority of people do not question SSRIs because they are now so commonplace, doctors prescribe them---so that immediately makes most people at ease, and everyone knows someone who is on one of them, and many are on them themselves.

As you know, LSD is manmade and not naturally occurring like Mescaline and Psilocybin. It mimics those, but not perfectly, so there are other problems that stem from that.

Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors inhibit the re-absorption of serotonin. LSD and other "known" hallucinogens mimic serotonin to have the effects they are so infamous for. So anything that is similarly structured, that leaves an excess of this neurotransmitter in one's brain, is obviously causing an overload which can lead to the same psychedelic effects. They are not necessarily as instantaneous as taking a tab of LSD, or smoking PCP, but it builds over time.

Of course, I am not a physician in any capacity, but I have studied this through books suggested on different sites, forums, and documentaries concerning the subject. One of the most helpful has been different research from Dr. Solomon H. Snyder, a neuroscientist. Also, Dr. Ann Blake Tracy's book "Prozac: Panacea or Pandora".

As I said, I know this is controversial. I've never taken any of these drugs, but friends of mine did, and some still do. My ex did for a time, as well, and you could see the disturbances that these drugs created. Some of them may "solve" or temporarily "soothe" one vague or severe ailment, and create a literal "Pandora's box" of others. Bear in mind, some patients are not as affected as others. But, think about this: You may be able to drink 10 beers and not be too affected, but perhaps if I only drink 3 I am ready to fight everyone and will end up in jail. It is a very delicate situation considering the complexity of each individual's unique chemistry, and people are just thrown on these drugs daily due to a vast array of different ailments that are not always similar in any way.

Another thing, in the case of Eric, at least, is that he was not weaned off Zoloft properly before being thrown on Luvox. He was placed on Luvox because he told the doctors that Zoloft was not helping and was making him feel strange and much worse than he was prior. Dr. Ann Blake Tracy has access to that information because she spoke for Mark Taylor in his lawsuit against Solvay Pharmaceuticals. Luvox ONLY has a warning of suicidal/homicidal ideation because of this lawsuit. Eric should have been slowly weaned off of Zoloft, and then gradually introduced to Luvox. That did not happen. We honestly don't know what he was already predisposed to genetically, and how these drugs could have exacerbated it.

With the information we do have, Eric was on Luvox shortly after the van break in. It is after the break in and arrest that he started talking about killing in his journal. It is also after this time period that associates and friends say that he was "changing". What I don't know at this moment for 100% certain is precisely when he was placed on Zoloft. His parents took him to a professional prior to the break in, or shortly after, and that is when he was prescribed Zoloft. After he told the psychiatrist about the effect Zoloft was having on him, they changed his prescription to Luvox.

rik75 wrote:

If Mr Harris thought Eric was " tripping " due to the side effects from the antidepressants Eric was prescribed ,why did Eric continue to take them? Why did Mr Harris allow Eric to take them?
How could Eric ( or anyone ) be able to function whilst under those kind of side effects?
If i was having those side effects i wouldn't drive or go to work because i would be a danger to myself and to others.
There are a million " WHYS " i could ask Mr Harris and that is one of them

Probably because neither of them realized that it was stemming from the Zoloft or Luvox. These are drugs that a professional prescribed him, so they didn't connect that element of his behavior to them. A parent wants to believe that a medical professional knows what they are doing when trying to help their child, that is why so many people on these drugs don't connect the behavior to the drugs themselves. They see it as some sort of worsening mental and/or emotional condition that is beyond the scope of the drugs' ability to remedy, when in fact, it is often the drug itself that is creating the problems.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

SSRIs are hallucinogen? I seriously doubt that.
What you probably mean, that they have similar chemical structures to LSD, Mescaline and Psylocibine? That may be correct, but the reason for that is, that they affect the Serotonine-metabolism and thus, have to imitate Serotonine (I don't know if SSRIs really work that way) and Serotonine has a similar structure to LSD, Mescaline and Psylocibine.
Not every substance that is similar to Serotonine causes Hallucinations! And I never heard, that SSRIs are known for causing them.

Or what did you mean by saying, that SSRIs are hallucinogens?

Research "SSRI hallucinations", "SSRI psychosis" and/or look into different names of specific SSRIs, like Prozac, Zoloft, Luvox, Paxil and so on. A large majority of them list hallucinations as a side effect. As most everyone knows, people who take LSD, PCP, and other natural hallucinogenic/psychedelic variants are often described as being "psychotic" or "out of their minds" while under the influence of them.


Of course they are not going to tell you precisely what they are. Initially, in the 1950s, they didn't want to tell people the truth about lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD). PCP was also something that these drug companies were promoting as "helpful" decades ago until they had to witness and deal with the utterly disastrous effects. These are BILLION dollar industries who have no interest in changing the financial flow that is endlessly coming to them by telling EVERYONE they need to be on these drugs. A large majority of people do not question SSRIs because they are now so commonplace, doctors prescribe them---so that immediately makes most people at ease, and everyone knows someone who is on one of them, and many are on them themselves.

As you know, LSD is manmade and not naturally occurring like Mescaline and Psilocybin. It mimics those, but not perfectly, so there are other problems that stem from that.

Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors inhibit the re-absorption of serotonin. LSD and other "known" hallucinogens mimic serotonin to have the effects they are so infamous for. So anything that is similarly structured, that leaves an excess of this neurotransmitter in one's brain, is obviously causing an overload which can lead to the same psychedelic effects. They are not necessarily as instantaneous as taking a tab of LSD, or smoking PCP, but it builds over time.

Of course, I am not a physician in any capacity, but I have studied this through books suggested on different sites, forums, and documentaries concerning the subject. One of the most helpful has been different research from Dr. Solomon H. Snyder, a neuroscientist. Also, Dr. Ann Blake Tracy's book "Prozac: Panacea or Pandora".

As I said, I know this is controversial. I've never taken any of these drugs, but friends of mine did, and some still do. My ex did for a time, as well, and you could see the disturbances that these drugs created. Some of them may "solve" or temporarily "soothe" one vague or severe ailment, and create a literal "Pandora's box" of others. Bear in mind, some patients are not as affected as others. But, think about this: You may be able to drink 10 beers and not be too affected, but perhaps if I only drink 3 I am ready to fight everyone and will end up in jail. It is a very delicate situation considering the complexity of each individual's unique chemistry, and people are just thrown on these drugs daily due to a vast array of different ailments that are not always similar in any way.

Another thing, in the case of Eric, at least, is that he was not weaned off Zoloft properly before being thrown on Luvox. He was placed on Luvox because he told the doctors that Zoloft was not helping and was making him feel strange and much worse than he was prior. Dr. Ann Blake Tracy has access to that information because she spoke for Mark Taylor in his lawsuit against Solvay Pharmaceuticals. Luvox ONLY has a warning of suicidal/homicidal ideation because of this lawsuit. Eric should have been slowly weaned off of Zoloft, and then gradually introduced to Luvox. That did not happen. We honestly don't know what he was already predisposed to genetically, and how these drugs could have exacerbated it.

With the information we do have, Eric was on Luvox shortly after the van break in. It is after the break in and arrest that he started talking about killing in his journal. It is also after this time period that associates and friends say that he was "changing". What I don't know at this moment for 100% certain is precisely when he was placed on Zoloft. His parents took him to a professional prior to the break in, or shortly after, and that is when he was prescribed Zoloft. After he told the psychiatrist about the effect Zoloft was having on him, they changed his prescription to Luvox.

rik75 wrote:

If Mr Harris thought Eric was " tripping " due to the side effects from the antidepressants Eric was prescribed ,why did Eric continue to take them? Why did Mr Harris allow Eric to take them?
How could Eric ( or anyone ) be able to function whilst under those kind of side effects?
If i was having those side effects i wouldn't drive or go to work because i would be a danger to myself and to others.
There are a million " WHYS " i could ask Mr Harris and that is one of them

Probably because neither of them realized that it was stemming from the Zoloft or Luvox. These are drugs that a professional prescribed him, so they didn't connect that element of his behavior to them. A parent wants to believe that a medical professional knows what they are doing when trying to help their child, that is why so many people on these drugs don't connect the behavior to the drugs themselves. They see it as some sort of worsening mental and/or emotional condition that is beyond the scope of the drugs' ability to remedy, when in fact, it is often the drug itself that is creating the problems.

I don't know enough about that topic to really respond to what you wrote, but I note again, that it doesn't have to mean anything, if two substances have similar structures and even similar work-mechanisms. That doesn't have to mean, that they have similar effects at all. It can mean that, though.
There is a drug called Kratom, I sometimes enjoy. The stuff that makes the effect of Kratom is called Mytraginine. Mytraginine has a very similar structure to LSD and Psylocibine. Its effects however, are not similar at all. In fact, the pretty unique effects of that substance are most comparable to those of a soft opiate, although the structure of Mytraginine is not similar to any opiate at all and it doesn't even work at the same areas in the brain.
I would also add, that the fact that some people get psychotic by SSRIs doesn't have to mean, that its a hallucinogen. There are people who get psychotic due the use of caffeine. That doesn't mean, that caffeine is a hallucinogen or causes psychosis (there is a difference between triggering and causing psychosis).

You might, however, be right with everything you have wrote. I don't know.

I have spent some time using Prozac. I wasn't depressed or unhappy. It was back in 2006.
I was so incredible tired..ALL the time. I went to see my GP and i told him about my deadening fatigue. He gave me some vitamin b12 tablets and i took them for 4 weeks and they didn't help.
So he put me on Prozac for 4 weeks and it did nothing for me ,it didn't make me feel better or worse. 
It simply did nothing for me. I guess some people are not effected by Prozac and some people are.

Cannabis! I wonder how it effected Eric and Dylan?
I used cannabis several years ago for therapeutic pain relief. It helped and made me giggly and then it all changed and i began to feel nervous and anxious. After a couple of weeks i stopped using it.

How do you think cannabis effected E/D's state of mind?
Did they ever experience cannabis " induced " paranoia , nervousness and anxiety?
From what i have read E/D both enjoyed smoking and didn't appear to have any problem with it.
I wouldn't say that cannabis is a good choice of drug ,when you consider E/D's state of mind ,especially the months leading up to NBK.

queenfarooq wrote:

I just had a quick glance at the sources mentioned.
I'd come across Angel Pytlinski's reference before. "Mrs Pytlinski said that Harris was upset with his dad, because his dad accused him of using LSD." pg(10193) It's a shame she doesn't go into more depth with this statement and we don't really know when the accusation was made.

Jennifer Cudworth, from what i understand says her sister Sarah was a friend of Harris. The report says she "sold him cocaine or attempted to do so last year" (not very specific) "She wears a trench coat and hangs around others who carry Tec-9's and has shot one. It later says "may have more info but will not tell." To be honest in my opinion everything she says sounds a little off. I'd be more interested to know who these people are who carry Tec-9's, this report makes it sound like there's more than one of them. pg(20028)

This particular Sydney Keating interview (i believe she was interviewed several times) just seems very questionable to me. She says "REDACTED was reported to have sold "fake cocaine" last year to Eric Harris, Chris Morris and Eric Dutroe. " pg(12277) So if this event took place maybe it wasn't even Eric Harris who was buying this "fake cocaine." Maybe others feel different but i'm just unsure about this whole interview with Keating. It appears to me that the latter part of this interview (not all, but mostly) is a bunch of statements that are possibly rumors, her own opinion or hearsay. In the same interview she does call a former student a "loser" and Brooks Brown is described as a "Total Wacko."

Again this is just my opinion, but I don't feel Keating and Cudworth's statements are particularly reliable.

I feel like i sound like i'm attempting to discredit all of these witness statements, but i do feel they are questionable. Personally I think if either of the boys took drugs on more than one occasion we would probably know more about it. I suspect if Eric was using any drugs or had even tried anything he would be the first to write it down in his journal in order to make himself look more bad-ass.

" Others that carry Tec-9's " Now that is interesting and very disturbing ! I'm going to look into that !

Hale-Bopp wrote:

I don't know enough about that topic to really respond to what you wrote, but I note again, that it doesn't have to mean anything, if two substances have similar structures and even similar work-mechanisms. That doesn't have to mean, that they have similar effects at all. It can mean that, though.
There is a drug called Kratom, I sometimes enjoy. The stuff that makes the effect of Kratom is called Mytraginine. Mytraginine has a very similar structure to LSD and Psylocibine. Its effects however, are not similar at all. In fact, the pretty unique effects of that substance are most comparable to those of a soft opiate, although the structure of Mytraginine is not similar to any opiate at all and it doesn't even work at the same areas in the brain.
I would also add, that the fact that some people get psychotic by SSRIs doesn't have to mean, that its a hallucinogen. There are people who get psychotic due the use of caffeine. That doesn't mean, that caffeine is a hallucinogen or causes psychosis (there is a difference between triggering and causing psychosis).

You might, however, be right with everything you have wrote. I don't know.

I am only aware of these things due to researching and studying what I discover through the research. I cannot prove any of this myself, and I have never gone through any of this as I have never taken such drugs.

I see the point you are making about the drug you sometimes use, as well as the points you make about how things as simple as caffeine can create some sort of psychosis. Perhaps the term that would best describe these SSRIs would be "mind altering", which is of course what hallucinogenic and psychedelic (in terms of drugs) means loosely. And that terminology is quite important. When one is aware that they are suffering from something that is based in the mind, why would they want to ingest something that further alters their mental state? These pharmaceutical giants will NEVER refer to them as such, and had no intention to do so for LSD or PCP (among others) decades ago, but those terms are indeed what they fall under and it is what they are referred to in recent times.

SSRIs interfere with serotonin metabolism. This is what Dr. Tracy writes:

"These drugs interfere with serotonin metabolism (demonstrated by levels of the serotonin metabolite 5HIAA). It is not serotonin that is low in these disorders, it is this by-product 5HIAA, which indicates the level of serotonin metabolism, that is low in depression, suicide, etc. Yet as serotonin (5HT) goes up, serotonin metabolism (5HIAA) generally comes down. We already have studies demonstrating at what percentage each of these drugs increase 5HT and decrease 5HIAA. Here are the results of elevated levels of serotonin (5HT) and decreased levels of serotonin metabolism (5HIAA):

Elevated 5HT (serotonin) levels:

-schizophrenia, psychosis, mania, etc.
-mood disorders (depression, anxiety, etc.)
-organic brain disease – especially mental retardation at a greater incident rate in children
-autism
-Alzheimer’s disease
-old age
-anorexia
-constriction of the blood vessels
-blood clotting
-constriction of bronchials and other physical effects


Lower 5HIAA (serotonin metabolism) levels:

-suicide (especially violent suicide)
-arson
-violent crime
-insomnia
-depression
-alcohol abuse
-impulsive acts with no concern for punishment
-reckless driving
-dependence upon various substances
-bulimia
-multiple suicide attempts
-hostility and more contact with police
-exhibitionism
-arguments with spouses, friends and relatives
-obsessive compulsive behavior
-impaired employment due to hostility, etc.

Raising 5HT (serotonin) and lowering 5HIAA (serotonin metabolism) in such a high number of people can produce very serious, extensive and long term problems for all of society. Even more frightening for the future of our society is the rapidly rising and widely accepted practice of prescribing these drugs to small children and adolescents. This crucial medical research must be addressed openly, without delay, rather than remain buried in seldom read medical research documents as has been the case in the past with other mind-altering medications, once thought to be safe, which were subsequently prohibited by law."


This is something one would have to deeply look into themselves. I have barely scratched the surface with my own research at this time, but I find it fascinating, and when time permits, I continue to research it.

It is not entirely hidden, but again, due to the personal interests of these billion dollar pharmaceutical companies, this sort of information is not going to be what you readily hear.


**Edited to add:

If one chooses to look into this view of these drugs, and apply it to their attempt at understanding Eric Harris' experience with them and their possible effects on him, be certain to keep in mind that he cycled on and off of Luvox of his own accord; without professional approval OR observation. To top this off, he was not introduced to or weaned off of Zoloft properly (gradually lowering the dosage milligram by milligram), nor was he slowly introduced to Luvox (gradually raising the dosage milligram by milligram), as he should have been. Withdrawal of these drugs in any form is the most devastating element many patients can endure regarding them, and when this is done improperly, it can be utterly disastrous. To do so on your own through erratic cycling can be included in such withdrawal.

rik75 wrote:

How do you think cannabis effected E/D's state of mind?
Did they ever experience cannabis " induced " paranoia , nervousness and anxiety?
From what i have read E/D both enjoyed smoking and didn't appear to have any problem with it.
I wouldn't say that cannabis is a good choice of drug ,when you consider E/D's state of mind ,especially the months leading up to NBK.

How often were you thinking Eric / Dylan smoked marijuana?
Personally i'm doubtful they were regular users, but that's just my opinion. There are reports in the 11k of them smoking marijuana but no real indication if this was regular or prolonged use from what I've seen. As far as E/D's associates go:

Chris Morris pg(19839) "Morris was aware that Duran was a marijuana smoker, as were Harris and Klebold. Morris knew this because Duran had offered him some at one time when Duran was giving Morris a ride home from work. Morris stated he observed Harris and Klebold smoking "pot" on one occasion."

Patrick McDuffee said "Harris and Klebold smoked marijuana but used no other substances." pg(10793)

I am aware there are other references to E/D smoking marijuana throughout the documents, however i don't recall anyone saying they smoked the drug regularly or for a prolonged period of time.

rik75 wrote:

queenfarooq wrote:

I just had a quick glance at the sources mentioned.
I'd come across Angel Pytlinski's reference before. "Mrs Pytlinski said that Harris was upset with his dad, because his dad accused him of using LSD." pg(10193) It's a shame she doesn't go into more depth with this statement and we don't really know when the accusation was made.

Jennifer Cudworth, from what i understand says her sister Sarah was a friend of Harris. The report says she "sold him cocaine or attempted to do so last year" (not very specific) "She wears a trench coat and hangs around others who carry Tec-9's and has shot one. It later says "may have more info but will not tell." To be honest in my opinion everything she says sounds a little off. I'd be more interested to know who these people are who carry Tec-9's, this report makes it sound like there's more than one of them. pg(20028)

This particular Sydney Keating interview (i believe she was interviewed several times) just seems very questionable to me. She says "REDACTED was reported to have sold "fake cocaine" last year to Eric Harris, Chris Morris and Eric Dutroe. " pg(12277) So if this event took place maybe it wasn't even Eric Harris who was buying this "fake cocaine." Maybe others feel different but i'm just unsure about this whole interview with Keating. It appears to me that the latter part of this interview (not all, but mostly) is a bunch of statements that are possibly rumors, her own opinion or hearsay. In the same interview she does call a former student a "loser" and Brooks Brown is described as a "Total Wacko."

Again this is just my opinion, but I don't feel Keating and Cudworth's statements are particularly reliable.

I feel like i sound like i'm attempting to discredit all of these witness statements, but i do feel they are questionable. Personally I think if either of the boys took drugs on more than one occasion we would probably know more about it. I suspect if Eric was using any drugs or had even tried anything he would be the first to write it down in his journal in order to make himself look more bad-ass.

" Others that carry Tec-9's " Now that is interesting and very disturbing ! I'm going to look into that !

I'm not sure how reliable Jennifer Cudworth's claim sounds, but that's just my feeling. She mentions her sister Sarah Cudworth whose interview is on pg(13136 - 9) Sarah says she met Harris about a year and a half ago. Interestingly she claims her friend Robert (Craig) introduced them which is corroborated by Jennifers statement. (For those who are not familiar, Robert Craig shot and killed his stepfather and himself in 1997, I wont go too much into this as it will go way off topic. Robert Craig is also mentioned in NEA by Brooks Brown) With reference to the OP Sarah does not mention drug use. Nor does she mention individuals carrying Tec-9's.  
On a slightly unrelated note starting on pg(8135), the documents seem to go off on a tangent and talk about another recent crime that took place where a Tec-9 was involved:

Quote :

Subjects listed below were taken into custody following a drive-by shooting in the 2800 block of E. Euclid Avenue (unincorporated Arapahoe County) on 4-18-99. The subjects had attended a party at the location and had been asked to leave due to a verbal altercation. Prior to leaving they threatened the residents and then fired a number of 9mm rounds out of their vehicle as they were leaving. They returned later and fired several more rounds into the residence and also at three vehicles parked in front of the residence. Several items of evidence were obtained when subjects were arrested; Le.,Glock 9mm and a Tek 9 pistoL

First of all, thanks for linking to this thread. I've never heard of SSRIs being hallucinogens before.

"When one is aware that they are suffering from something that is based in the mind, why would they want to ingest something that further alters their mental state?"

This stood out to me because I'm not sure why you would think that. If my problem is with the way my mind works then of course I need something that will alter that. If my brain isn't working normally I want to alter it so that it is. I think most people on SSRIs understand the goal is to alter the way their mind is working.

I haven't done intense research on SSRIs but have read enough not to be taking a mystery substance. From what I've read I've gathered that it's not entirely certain why or how SSRIs work to aid mental illnesses. I did have a doctor tell me it was basically that low serotonin levels caused the depression/OCD/anxiety, therefore increasing the levels would help it. From research I've read that is not necessarily true, though it is a possibility. If that is the case, then maybe taking an SSRI when you're not low on serotonin would cause issues with an excess of serotonin, while taking them when you're low on it wouldn't. Which goes back to the issue of doctors prescribing them when they aren't needed or not properly monitoring patients while they're on them.

I doubt SSRIs are really comparable to taking something like LSD. I've never taken LSD, but are people able to take something like that on a daily basis and have nobody notice it? If you're having hallucinations and whatnot that would surely affect your ability to function normally. Yet most people who take SSRIs are able to function normally because of the drugs. Yes, if you do research you will find personal accounts of horrific side effects, but people are more likely to get online and share their stories when they are negative. Plenty of people take SSRIs with no negative effects. Usually you don't know someone is on SSRIs unless they tell you.

I personally am guilty of bad mouthing effexor anytime it is remotely relevant as it's the only anxiety medication I had significant negative effects from. I looked into that and saw tons of other people had the same issues as me with it. But I'm sure plenty of people take it and are fine. The SSRI I've been on for years is Zoloft, but I'm sure others, including Eric Harris, apparently, have negative effects from that. My point is drugs affect people differently and the key is monitoring the reaction.

If SSRIs were causing Eric to seem like he was on LSD, maybe his psychiatrist wasn't paying enough attention to him to realize the drugs were having an adverse affect. Maybe it was the wrong drug for him, maybe he didn't even need drugs and his doctor just put him on drugs because he didn't know what else to do with him.

But now I think I'm reverting back to the topic in the other thread.

ellie z wrote:

First of all, thanks for linking to this thread. I've never heard of SSRIs being hallucinogens before.

You're very welcome.

ellie z wrote:

"When one is aware that they are suffering from something that is based in the mind, why would they want to ingest something that further alters their mental state?"

This stood out to me because I'm not sure why you would think that. If my problem is with the way my mind works then of course I need something that will alter that. If my brain isn't working normally I want to alter it so that it is. I think most people on SSRIs understand the goal is to alter the way their mind is working.

It would seem that if someone is suffering from something mentally; dealing with the fact that their mind's functioning is "altered", they would want to correct the alteration, not ingest something that alters it even further.

ellie z wrote:

I doubt SSRIs are really comparable to taking something like LSD. I've never taken LSD, but are people able to take something like that on a daily basis and have nobody notice it? If you're having hallucinations and whatnot that would surely affect your ability to function normally. Yet most people who take SSRIs are able to function normally because of the drugs. Yes, if you do research you will find personal accounts of horrific side effects, but people are more likely to get online and share their stories when they are negative. Plenty of people take SSRIs with no negative effects. Usually you don't know someone is on SSRIs unless they tell you.

Eli Lilley is primarily responsible for a vast majority of these drugs, which have incredibly similar structures to one another, and LSD. Eli Lilley was also responsible for the production of LSD in the 1950s (in the United States), and they were promoting and prescribing it in the same manner (to the best of their ability during that era) that almost all of these drugs are promoted and prescribed today.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Eric and Dylan's co-worker, Angel Pytlinksi, says that Eric told her that his father accused him of being under the influence of LSD. (JC-001-010193)


I know this next part may be controversial to some, but if you actually look into Zoloft, Luvox, and other SSRIs, you will learn that they are pretty much hallucinogens.

The majority of them were created by Eli Lilly, who actually got a patent for their own synthesis of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD).

At the core of their synthesis, these SSRIs are all quite similar to LSD, and one another. Look into the manner in which Eli Lilly promoted LSD in the 1950s. They were calling it a "wonder drug" that was going to aid in the advancement of psychological research, and help cure depression, alcoholism, and so on. It was even prescribed to pregnant women.

It was disastrous, and it is now stigmatized for the most part, as it should be. These other SSRIs are milder overall, but they create the same effect in most people who take them over time.

After researching this from many different angles, when I read this statement again, it did not remotely surprise me that Eric's father thought he was tripping. He probably was...but not from "dropping a tab" of LSD in the "typical" sense, but from either the Zoloft or Luvox (he was on Zoloft first) that the "mental health professional" assigned to him had prescribed.

I know you addressed a lot of this, but again:

tfsa47090 wrote:

Research "SSRI hallucinations", "SSRI psychosis" and/or look into different names of specific SSRIs, like Prozac, Zoloft, Luvox, Paxil and so on. A large majority of them list hallucinations as a side effect. As most everyone knows, people who take LSD, PCP, and other natural hallucinogenic/psychedelic variants are often described as being "psychotic" or "out of their minds" while under the influence of them.


Of course they are not going to tell you precisely what they are. Initially, in the 1950s, they didn't want to tell people the truth about lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD). PCP was also something that these drug companies were promoting as "helpful" decades ago until they had to witness and deal with the utterly disastrous effects. These are BILLION dollar industries who have no interest in changing the financial flow that is endlessly coming to them by telling EVERYONE they need to be on these drugs. A large majority of people do not question SSRIs because they are now so commonplace, doctors prescribe them---so that immediately makes most people at ease, and everyone knows someone who is on one of them, and many are on them themselves.

As you know, LSD is manmade and not naturally occurring like Mescaline and Psilocybin. It mimics those, but not perfectly, so there are other problems that stem from that.

Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors inhibit the re-absorption of serotonin. LSD and other "known" hallucinogens mimic serotonin to have the effects they are so infamous for. So anything that is similarly structured, that leaves an excess of this neurotransmitter in one's brain, is obviously causing an overload which can lead to the same psychedelic effects. They are not necessarily as instantaneous as taking a tab of LSD, or smoking PCP, but it builds over time.

Of course, I am not a physician in any capacity, but I have studied this through books suggested on different sites, forums, and documentaries concerning the subject. One of the most helpful has been different research from Dr. Solomon H. Snyder, a neuroscientist. Also, Dr. Ann Blake Tracy's book "Prozac: Panacea or Pandora".

As I said, I know this is controversial. I've never taken any of these drugs, but friends of mine did, and some still do. My ex did for a time, as well, and you could see the disturbances that these drugs created. Some of them may "solve" or temporarily "soothe" one vague or severe ailment, and create a literal "Pandora's box" of others. Bear in mind, some patients are not as affected as others. But, think about this: You may be able to drink 10 beers and not be too affected, but perhaps if I only drink 3 I am ready to fight everyone and will end up in jail. It is a very delicate situation considering the complexity of each individual's unique chemistry, and people are just thrown on these drugs daily due to a vast array of different ailments that are not always similar in any way.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

I don't know enough about that topic to really respond to what you wrote, but I note again, that it doesn't have to mean anything, if two substances have similar structures and even similar work-mechanisms. That doesn't have to mean, that they have similar effects at all. It can mean that, though.
There is a drug called Kratom, I sometimes enjoy. The stuff that makes the effect of Kratom is called Mytraginine. Mytraginine has a very similar structure to LSD and Psylocibine. Its effects however, are not similar at all. In fact, the pretty unique effects of that substance are most comparable to those of a soft opiate, although the structure of Mytraginine is not similar to any opiate at all and it doesn't even work at the same areas in the brain.
I would also add, that the fact that some people get psychotic by SSRIs doesn't have to mean, that its a hallucinogen. There are people who get psychotic due the use of caffeine. That doesn't mean, that caffeine is a hallucinogen or causes psychosis (there is a difference between triggering and causing psychosis).

You might, however, be right with everything you have wrote. I don't know.

I am only aware of these things due to researching and studying what I discover through the research. I cannot prove any of this myself, and I have never gone through any of this as I have never taken such drugs.

I see the point you are making about the drug you sometimes use, as well as the points you make about how things as simple as caffeine can create some sort of psychosis. Perhaps the term that would best describe these SSRIs would be "mind altering", which is of course what hallucinogenic and psychedelic (in terms of drugs) means loosely. And that terminology is quite important. When one is aware that they are suffering from something that is based in the mind, why would they want to ingest something that further alters their mental state? These pharmaceutical giants will NEVER refer to them as such, and had no intention to do so for LSD or PCP (among others) decades ago, but those terms are indeed what they fall under and it is what they are referred to in recent times.

SSRIs interfere with serotonin metabolism. This is what Dr. Tracy writes:

"These drugs interfere with serotonin metabolism (demonstrated by levels of the serotonin metabolite 5HIAA). It is not serotonin that is low in these disorders, it is this by-product 5HIAA, which indicates the level of serotonin metabolism, that is low in depression, suicide, etc. Yet as serotonin (5HT) goes up, serotonin metabolism (5HIAA) generally comes down. We already have studies demonstrating at what percentage each of these drugs increase 5HT and decrease 5HIAA. Here are the results of elevated levels of serotonin (5HT) and decreased levels of serotonin metabolism (5HIAA):

Elevated 5HT (serotonin) levels:

-schizophrenia, psychosis, mania, etc.
-mood disorders (depression, anxiety, etc.)
-organic brain disease – especially mental retardation at a greater incident rate in children
-autism
-Alzheimer’s disease
-old age
-anorexia
-constriction of the blood vessels
-blood clotting
-constriction of bronchials and other physical effects


Lower 5HIAA (serotonin metabolism) levels:

-suicide (especially violent suicide)
-arson
-violent crime
-insomnia
-depression
-alcohol abuse
-impulsive acts with no concern for punishment
-reckless driving
-dependence upon various substances
-bulimia
-multiple suicide attempts
-hostility and more contact with police
-exhibitionism
-arguments with spouses, friends and relatives
-obsessive compulsive behavior
-impaired employment due to hostility, etc.

Raising 5HT (serotonin) and lowering 5HIAA (serotonin metabolism) in such a high number of people can produce very serious, extensive and long term problems for all of society. Even more frightening for the future of our society is the rapidly rising and widely accepted practice of prescribing these drugs to small children and adolescents. This crucial medical research must be addressed openly, without delay, rather than remain buried in seldom read medical research documents as has been the case in the past with other mind-altering medications, once thought to be safe, which were subsequently prohibited by law."


This is something one would have to deeply look into themselves. I have barely scratched the surface with my own research at this time, but I find it fascinating, and when time permits, I continue to research it.

It is not entirely hidden, but again, due to the personal interests of these billion dollar pharmaceutical companies, this sort of information is not going to be what you readily hear.

ellie z wrote:

If SSRIs were causing Eric to seem like he was on LSD, maybe his psychiatrist wasn't paying enough attention to him to realize the drugs were having an adverse affect. Maybe it was the wrong drug for him, maybe he didn't even need drugs and his doctor just put him on drugs because he didn't know what else to do with him.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Another thing, in the case of Eric, at least, is that he was not weaned off Zoloft properly before being thrown on Luvox. He was placed on Luvox because he told the doctors that Zoloft was not helping and was making him feel strange and much worse than he was prior. Dr. Ann Blake Tracy has access to that information because she spoke for Mark Taylor in his lawsuit against Solvay Pharmaceuticals. Luvox ONLY has a warning of suicidal/homicidal ideation because of this lawsuit. Eric should have been slowly weaned off of Zoloft, and then gradually introduced to Luvox. That did not happen. We honestly don't know what he was already predisposed to genetically, and how these drugs could have exacerbated it.

tfsa47090 wrote:

With the information we do have, Eric was on Luvox shortly after the van break in. It is after the break in and arrest that he started talking about killing in his journal. It is also after this time period that associates and friends say that he was "changing". What I don't know at this moment for 100% certain is precisely when he was placed on Zoloft. His parents took him to a professional prior to the break in, or shortly after, and that is when he was prescribed Zoloft. After he told the psychiatrist about the effect Zoloft was having on him, they changed his prescription to Luvox.

tfsa47090 wrote:

rik75 wrote:

If Mr Harris thought Eric was " tripping " due to the side effects from the antidepressants Eric was prescribed ,why did Eric continue to take them? Why did Mr Harris allow Eric to take them?
How could Eric ( or anyone ) be able to function whilst under those kind of side effects?
If i was having those side effects i wouldn't drive or go to work because i would be a danger to myself and to others.
There are a million " WHYS " i could ask Mr Harris and that is one of them

Probably because neither of them realized that it was stemming from the Zoloft or Luvox. These are drugs that a professional prescribed him, so they didn't connect that element of his behavior to them. A parent wants to believe that a medical professional knows what they are doing when trying to help their child, that is why so many people on these drugs don't connect the behavior to the drugs themselves. They see it as some sort of worsening mental and/or emotional condition that is beyond the scope of the drugs' ability to remedy, when in fact, it is often the drug itself that is creating the problems.

tfsa47090 wrote:

If one chooses to look into this view of these drugs, and apply it to their attempt at understanding Eric Harris' experience with them and their possible effects on him, be certain to keep in mind that he cycled on and off of Luvox of his own accord; without professional approval OR observation. To top this off, he was not introduced to or weaned off of Zoloft properly (gradually lowering the dosage milligram by milligram), nor was he slowly introduced to Luvox (gradually raising the dosage milligram by milligram), as he should have been. Withdrawal of these drugs in any form is the most devastating element many patients can endure regarding them, and when this is done improperly, it can be utterly disastrous. To do so on your own through erratic cycling can be included in such withdrawal.

This really is an exceedingly deep and intensely complex subject. It takes a massive amount of time for anyone not already in the field to look into it. The human brain is indescribably intricate, and each human being's genetic makeup is so different. We're all potentially predisposed to things, and while one of us may be very sensitive to one thing immediately, it may take 100x of whatever set the first person off to set the same issue off in another.

As stated previously, I'm NOT in the field, but I have researched quite a bit. Honestly, I still haven't even scratched the surface regardless. And frankly, I haven't looked into the subject for almost a year. But reading this thread again, I'm sure I will be delving back into it soon.

SSRI can have a lot of side effectsm this can very from person to person.
There are reports of people having hallucinations after zoloft, but its a very rare side effect. I do not have a chart with me, but its very rare. Most people don't experience anythign after zoloft and those who do usually have panic attacks or hyperventilation, pain in the joints etc.

Zoloft related ones are far less common than hallucinations caused by popular drugs such as percocet.

So while the danger is there, the probability needs to be put into perspective. Its more likley you will get a stroke after a larger dose of ibuprofen than hallucinations after zoloft.


Again, don't mean to sound like a professional. I studied psychology, not psychiatry. So drug-knowledge was peripheral to our main focus. Psychiatry is the science that has its maion focus on drugs.

Quote :

It would seem that if someone is suffering from something mentally; dealing with the fact that their mind's functioning is "altered", they would want to correct the alteration, not ingest something that alters it even further.

I think my misunderstanding was that you meant mind altering in a negative way or at least an abnormal way. I was thinking mind altering as in literally, a drug affecting the chemicals in your brain and altering the way it works. Not necessarily negative or abnormal. For most people who get on these drugs and stay on them because they're working for them, these drugs alter their mind in a positive way in order to allow them to live better lives, to function in society. There is already something not working right in their brain, the drug is meant to correct that. It is not altering further in a negative way, but in a corrective way.

Quote :

Eli Lilley is primarily responsible for a vast majority of these drugs, which have incredibly similar structures to one another, and LSD. Eli Lilley was also responsible for the production of LSD in the 1950s (in the United States), and they were promoting and prescribing it in the same manner (to the best of their ability during that era) that almost all of these drugs are promoted and prescribed today.

I'm not disputing the drugs may have similar structure; I haven't looked it up but I'll take your word for it. However, I know enough chemistry to know substances can have identical chemical make up but simply one bond formed in a different way, and be entirely different compounds with entirely different properties. The fact that two different substances have similar structure or formulas means almost nothing when taken by itself in regards to how a substance compares to another.

If SSRIs have similar structure to LSD and were meant for the same purpose, it's not really surprising the same people are behind them. It actually makes a lot of sense. It just doesn't convince me that the drugs therefore are essentially the same. They are different substances.

I googled LSD effects and the ability to function normally on LSD. The general consensus seems to be that if you're taking enough to give you fun effects for recreational use, then no, you can not be on LSD on a regular basis and expect to function normally and expect nobody to catch on.

I did however come across several articles and apparently, even very recently, they've been looking into uses for the drug in mental health. At a lower dose the effects may be minimal and beneficial. I found that interesting given the subject

Also, having read through the effects people get from LSD, the "high" itself people are looking for, I feel comfortable saying most people experience nothing like that from SSRIs. That would be rather extreme and wouldn't help people carry on their daily lives, which is the entire reason for taking these drugs.

tfsa47090 wrote:

After researching this from many different angles, when I read this statement again, it did not remotely surprise me that Eric's father thought he was tripping. He probably was...but not from "dropping a tab" of LSD in the "typical" sense, but from either the Zoloft or Luvox (he was on Zoloft first) that the "mental health professional" assigned to him had prescribed.

I sincerely doubt Luvox was making Eric behave as if he were "tripping on acid" honestly. His psychiatrist may have improperly switched his drugs, but he was surely competent enough to notice if he was constantly high. If this kind of effect was related to the drug at all I'd suspect it was more likely because Eric was playing with his dosage, which is a dangerous thing.

If he was experiencing LSD like effects from the drug I'd say he had a bad reaction and his psychiatrist really should have noticed sometime in the year he was on it.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Research "SSRI hallucinations", "SSRI psychosis" and/or look into different names of specific SSRIs, like Prozac, Zoloft, Luvox, Paxil and so on. A large majority of them list hallucinations as a side effect. As most everyone knows, people who take LSD, PCP, and other natural hallucinogenic/psychedelic variants are often described as being "psychotic" or "out of their minds" while under the influence of them.

They list hallucinations as a side effect, sure, but that doesn't mean it's a common side effect, and doesn't make the drug a hallucinogen. And most people aren't "psychotic" or "out of their minds" while on SSRIs, so I'm uncertain how it relates.

And I tried to do a brief search into information on SSRIs being hallucinogens, and didn't find much, honestly. I'll admit I clearly didn't have time for extensive research, but all I could really find was anecdotal evidence of people having bad reactions with the drug. Most of these people simply go back to the doctor and look for other solutions.

I'm not denying there is information out there to back you up, and you've presented some of it. But it's not widely accepted at all, it doesn't seem, and it's always good to keep in mind there's some evidence out there to back up any claim at all.

Quote :

Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors inhibit the re-absorption of serotonin. LSD and other "known" hallucinogens mimic serotonin to have the effects they are so infamous for. So anything that is similarly structured, that leaves an excess of this neurotransmitter in one's brain, is obviously causing an overload which can lead to the same psychedelic effects. They are not necessarily as instantaneous as taking a tab of LSD, or smoking PCP, but it builds over time.

I'm not certain that is obvious, actually. Like I mentioned before, why exactly these drugs work is not known, but if it's correcting a shortage of serotonin, it wouldn't logically lead to an excess of it, but a normal amount. Regardless, most people aren't experiencing psychedelic effects. If it builds over time it's taking a very long time for most people. To worry over a drug possibly in decades causing some hallucinations seems a bit extreme... people weigh risks and benefits when taking medications all the time, this seems rather low risk, in my opinion.

Quote :

As I said, I know this is controversial. I've never taken any of these drugs, but friends of mine did, and some still do. My ex did for a time, as well, and you could see the disturbances that these drugs created. Some of them may "solve" or temporarily "soothe" one vague or severe ailment, and create a literal "Pandora's box" of others. Bear in mind, some patients are not as affected as others. But, think about this: You may be able to drink 10 beers and not be too affected, but perhaps if I only drink 3 I am ready to fight everyone and will end up in jail. It is a very delicate situation considering the complexity of each individual's unique chemistry, and people are just thrown on these drugs daily due to a vast array of different ailments that are not always similar in any way.

And some patients are not affected at all. Everyone is affected differently by drugs, any drug out there is dangerous to someone. Doctors do give these drugs out too easily and many don't do proper follow up. I agree the drugs should be taken more seriously. But they don't affect everyone negatively. It's the applying these dangers to everyone, across the board, that isn't making sense to me.

Quote :

SSRIs interfere with serotonin metabolism. This is what Dr. Tracy writes:

"These drugs interfere with serotonin metabolism (demonstrated by levels of the serotonin metabolite 5HIAA). It is not serotonin that is low in these disorders, it is this by-product 5HIAA, which indicates the level of serotonin metabolism, that is low in depression, suicide, etc. Yet as serotonin (5HT) goes up, serotonin metabolism (5HIAA) generally comes down. We already have studies demonstrating at what percentage each of these drugs increase 5HT and decrease 5HIAA. Here are the results of elevated levels of serotonin (5HT) and decreased levels of serotonin metabolism (5HIAA):

Elevated 5HT (serotonin) levels:

-schizophrenia, psychosis, mania, etc.
-mood disorders (depression, anxiety, etc.)
-organic brain disease – especially mental retardation at a greater incident rate in children
-autism
-Alzheimer’s disease
-old age
-anorexia
-constriction of the blood vessels
-blood clotting
-constriction of bronchials and other physical effects


Lower 5HIAA (serotonin metabolism) levels:

-suicide (especially violent suicide)
-arson
-violent crime
-insomnia
-depression
-alcohol abuse
-impulsive acts with no concern for punishment
-reckless driving
-dependence upon various substances
-bulimia
-multiple suicide attempts
-hostility and more contact with police
-exhibitionism
-arguments with spouses, friends and relatives
-obsessive compulsive behavior
-impaired employment due to hostility, etc.

Raising 5HT (serotonin) and lowering 5HIAA (serotonin metabolism) in such a high number of people can produce very serious, extensive and long term problems for all of society. Even more frightening for the future of our society is the rapidly rising and widely accepted practice of prescribing these drugs to small children and adolescents. This crucial medical research must be addressed openly, without delay, rather than remain buried in seldom read medical research documents as has been the case in the past with other mind-altering medications, once thought to be safe, which were subsequently prohibited by law."

Dr. Tracey seems to be doing a bit of fear mongering, based on this, honestly. Maybe the entire book isn't like that, but to me this awfully scare tactic-y. And baffling, as many of these side effects are things SSRIs actually help. But this seems unrelated to the comparison to LSD/ hallucinogens, unless I'm missing something. Like I've said before, I'm not denying some people have side effects from these drugs, but implying everyone, or even the majority, does, is incorrect in my opinion. If you read the side effects of any drug and assume they'll actually happen to you, most people wouldn't take so much as tylenol. Most side effects simply don't happen to most people.

(Also I'm entirely confused as to how "old age" is a side effect of a drug, unless it means symptoms common with old age?)



This is an interesting subject and I'd not come accross it before. But I can't say I'm very convinced. I'll admit I'm biased as I've been on these drugs with no I'll effects or hallucinogen effects, but I've tried to look at the subject as fairly as I can.

I think the bottom line for me is that so many people are on these drugs and have been on these drugs for years, and aren't affected negatively by them. I don't deny the drugs are over used and not for everybody, but they are a great benefit to many people. I don't think the evidence presented warrants them being labeled hallucinogens or considered inherently bad or dangerous.

As far as Eric Harris goes, I'm not convinced the drugs had much do with what he did, though that is a matter of opinion. It is a possibility, and if they did, that is tragic, clearly. But I think better control of the drugs is the answer, not fear of them.

If they have taken acid, they probably wouldn't have done what they have done.
But LSD is not something teenagers usually take - it's a very grown-up drug, and good acid is hard to get a hold of, especially as it was in the 90's, when the War on Drugs was still raging.

This just seems too random for them - LSD is a very specific retro drug, and I don't think E&D were into hippie stuff that much to go out of their way and get some lsd, though Dylan did write a paper on Charles Manson once.

All the technical talk is fine and all but once you mix alcohol (especially Jack Daniels) with pills, it pretty much defeats the purpose so in the end, it really didn't matter what he was taking because he was drinking anyways.

Sane One wrote:

once you mix alcohol (especially Jack Daniels) with pills, it pretty much defeats the purpose.

Umm... who told you that?
I mean, I know this theory existed in 1970's among people who have been only familiar with drugs theoretically, but I mean, why do you think people put 'molly' in girls drinks?

I doubt they took LSD or cocaine. You have to have connections for those kinds of drugs and I just don't see E/D knowing the right people. I'm not sure about LSD, but I know cocaine isn't cheap. They weren't making enough money to be buying bomb supplies and expensive drugs.

IMHO, they probably just stuck to pot and alcohol. Dylan obviously drank more than Eric. I know some people have called him an alcoholic, but I think that's wrong. E/D probably smoked pot socially a hand full of times, but I don't see them as stoners. (Stoners wouldn't pull a school shooting in my opinion)

People that went to Harris pervious school claimed he stated he was being drugged at Plattsburgh Air Force base where his father once worked

browneyes11 wrote:

You have to have connections for those kinds of drugs and I just don't see E/D knowing the right people.

It's not like it is super hard to buy acid in Colorado, and they knew Mark Manes. I don't know about Cullen's claims about Manes being a drug dealer, but he surely knew at least someone in Colorado to get drugs, if they wanted to they could've gotten hold of it.

The only question is... why? Why would Eric or Dylan be interested in any of that "hippie shit" as they would probably deem LSD as?
Maybe Dylan, he was into Manson - Charles Manson that is, but...

I just don't see it, they didn't seem like acid people.

tommydee89 wrote:

People that went to Harris pervious school claimed he stated he was being drugged at Plattsburgh Air Force base where his father once worked

Eric Harris used to say in his journal that he 'lies a lot, almost constant', so I wouldn't give that story much of a wage.

asdf12345 wrote:

tommydee89 wrote:

People that went to Harris pervious school claimed he stated he was being drugged at Plattsburgh Air Force base where his father once worked

Eric Harris used to say in his journal that he 'lies a lot, almost constant', so I wouldn't give that story much of a wage.

I believe he was referring to lying to keep himself out of trouble, not just for the hell of it

asdf12345 wrote:

browneyes11 wrote:

You have to have connections for those kinds of drugs and I just don't see E/D knowing the right people.

It's not like it is super hard to buy acid in Colorado, and they knew Mark Manes. I don't know about Cullen's claims about Manes being a drug dealer, but he surely knew at least someone in Colorado to get drugs, if they wanted to they could've gotten hold of it.

The only question is... why? Why would Eric or Dylan be interested in any of that "hippie shit" as they would probably deem LSD as?
Maybe Dylan, he was into Manson - Charles Manson that is, but...

I just don't see it, they didn't seem like acid people.  

I agree. Acid doesn't seem like a drug they would use. They already saw themselves as "self-aware". What use would mind-altering drugs be to them?
I was mostly referring to cocaine. Cocaine is more of a rich person drug. And I don't see them wasting their money on a high that only last half an hour.

browneyes11 wrote:

I believe he was referring to lying to keep himself out of trouble, not just for the hell of it

Why not? Even if he wasn't a psychopath, like Cullen argues (though I would agree with Dave here), he clearly had some psychopathic tendencies, maybe subconsciously trying to act like one - remember "I wish I was a fucking sociopath" phrase on the basement tapes?

And even if not, show me a teenager who wouldn't make up stories like this to impress his peers.

asdf12345 wrote:

browneyes11 wrote:

I believe he was referring to lying to keep himself out of trouble, not just for the hell of it

Why not? Even if he wasn't a psychopath, like Cullen argues (though I would agree with Dave here), he clearly had some psychopathic tendencies, maybe subconsciously trying to act like one - remember "I wish I was a fucking sociopath" phrase on the basement tapes?

And even if not, show me a teenager who wouldn't make up stories like this to impress his peers.

You might be right. He just shows such a hatred for people who exaggerate the truth (such as Brooks Brown) that I would assume
that he wouldn't lie unless he needed to lie. But then again he did say "yeah I know that I hate liars and I am one myself, oh fucking well. Its ok If I am a hypocrite, but no one else"

asdf12345 wrote:

Eric was full of contradictions, as most teenagers are, because they haven't yet established their moral grounds - a person in his late teenage years still has very little life experience for that.

A teenager is still a forming person, after all - strong, firmly established principles simply hadn't have enough time to take ground in his consciousness.

< - - - - Has had "strong, firmly established principles" (or permanent lack of such) firmly established by 16 y.o or so.

But he was in elementary/middle school at this time. Why would he lie about something like this at this time.

I think Dylan would probably have mentioned it in his journal if he tripped on acid. I don't think Eric would be interested in being that out of control of his mind since he didn't even like drinking.