Why didn't they shoot more students running out of the commons?

So I was going over the video footage of the commons just now and saw Dave Sanders run up the stairs to warn others. This is where he (to my understanding) ran into Eric and Dylan where they shot him. Moments after he ran up the stairs and the flood of students followed. So why didn't Eric or Dylan start shooting at the mass students running out the door?

That's a good question! I wonder if they just didn't care enough?    I mean, Eric and Dylan moved toward the library after Eric shot Dave Sanders and Dylan threw a pipe bomb into the cafeteria. Then the library massacre happened. The group of students either went to the science room or somewhere else because that's my only guess as to why they weren't shot at or killed.

Because they were too focused on the bombs. They were trying to still blow up the entire school even when they started their Library Massacre. They constantly tried to blow up their propane bombs, and failed miserably.

I agree. They had no Plan B. They were dead set that the propane bombs exploding and creating huge damage to the school, when it didn’t happen they were just winging it. There was no sense or reason for their actions.

Miasmom1028 wrote:

So I was going over the video footage of the commons just now and saw Dave Sanders run up the stairs to warn others. This is where he (to my understanding) ran into Eric and Dylan where they shot him. Moments after he ran up the stairs and the flood of students followed. So why didn't Eric or Dylan start shooting at the mass students running out the door?

It all comes down to the fact that they had no solid plan B.
That is why when you sit back and look at their movements throughout the school, you'll realize they were just winging it as they went along.
I believe once they realized the bombs failed their morale dropped drastically.
After all, the bombs were the main part of the plan, as Columbine was supposed to be a bombing first, shooting second.

They wondered the halls of the science wing looking into classrooms filled with kids, yet made no attempt to gain entry or shoot through any of the doors.
Then they wandered to the cafeteria in a last ditch attempt to try to get the bombs to detonate.
It seems that neither really did research about propane since shooting propane tanks that small rarely causes an explosion, as propane isn't very combustible when shot. (Mythbusters proved this)

It seems to me that they really put all their faith into those bombs. In typical teenager fashion they thought they were the best at what they did, and that was a big part of their downfall.
They got cocky and thought they were better than everyone and the best at what they did.
I have no doubts that they both died disappointed as Columbine was essentially a failure.

The bombs failed, Eric talked about killing 400 people, Dylan mentioned wanting to kill 250, and they didn't kill anyone on their shit-list or any of the people who made their lives hell.
From reading their journal entries, they pictured the school on fire after the bombs exploded killing hundreds in the cafeteria, with kids running for their lives while getting mowed down by the dozens.
In the end, they killed 13 people, and basically their judgement day ended up being a flop, as hardly anything went down the way they planned.

It has always boggled my mind that they didn't go to the gym or weight room area, which would of probably had many jocks there, some of which probably gave them hell.
I don't know if it was just the adrenaline or what, but seeing as the jocks were their mortal enemies, I don't see why they wouldn't of at least checked that area out.
Instead they hit up the library and wondered the science area hallways.

Many people here have asked the same question, and unfortunately we will never have a direct answer since Eric and Dylan are long gone.
All we can do is analyze and come to our own conclusions and theories about certain aspects of the massacre.  

Welcome to the forum by the way, enjoy your stay.

slippy123 wrote:

It has always boggled my mind that they didn't go to the gym or weight room area, which would of probably had many jocks there, some of which probably gave them hell.
I don't know if it was just the adrenaline or what, but seeing as the jocks were their mortal enemies, I don't see why they wouldn't of at least checked that area out.

I have no fucking idea why the myth of "they were targeting jocks" still persists when they had bombs in the cafeteria and bombs in their cars, bombs that had they gone off would've killed a lot of non-jocks...

QuestionMark wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

It has always boggled my mind that they didn't go to the gym or weight room area, which would of probably had many jocks there, some of which probably gave them hell.
I don't know if it was just the adrenaline or what, but seeing as the jocks were their mortal enemies, I don't see why they wouldn't of at least checked that area out.

I have no fucking idea why the myth of "they were targeting jocks" still persists when they had bombs in the cafeteria and bombs in their cars, bombs that had they gone off would've killed a lot of non-jocks...

It's other losers projecting their own fantasies into the situation.

The "muh jock oppreshun!" is also annoying.

QuestionMark wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

It has always boggled my mind that they didn't go to the gym or weight room area, which would of probably had many jocks there, some of which probably gave them hell.
I don't know if it was just the adrenaline or what, but seeing as the jocks were their mortal enemies, I don't see why they wouldn't of at least checked that area out.

I have no fucking idea why the myth of "they were targeting jocks" still persists when they had bombs in the cafeteria and bombs in their cars, bombs that had they gone off would've killed a lot of non-jocks...

Nowhere did I say that they were strictly targeting jocks, as we all know everyone was a target that day.
But seeing as one of their first statements when entering the library according to witnesses was "Anyone with white hats stand up", its obvious that killing jocks was somewhat of a priority to them.
They went up to Evan Todd and asked him specifically if he was a jock.

There are tons of other 11k entries where people heard them shit talking or making comments about finding and killing Jocks specifically during the shooting.

Point being, if they were looking for "white hats" to stand up, they would of had better luck in areas where most of them hung around, such as the gym or weight room areas.

There was a lot of contradiction between who they targeted with violence and what they said During the massacre.. I think after the bombs didn’t  go off they were improvising a great deal. So I think they just wanted to elicit fear in people and they did

I even think Laurens  table got the brunt of it because that was the table then there were a lot of students under. But we simply don’t know we are speculating

I also think the bombs under the table where Jocks usually sat probably added fuel to the fire.

Screamingophelia wrote:

There was a lot of contradiction between who they targeted with violence and what they said During the massacre.. I think after the bombs didn’t  go off they were improvising a great deal. So I think they just wanted to elicit tear in people and they did

I even think Laurens  table got the brunt of it because that was the table then there were a lot of students under. But we simply don’t know we are speculating

Agreed.

It's common knowledge that the group of people that gave them the most shit were the jocks.
Eric hated the fact they were popular, had pretty girlfriends, nice cars, and got away with everything.
Eric wanted to have what they had so bad, to be accepted, respected, etc.

They both spoke about their hatred for the jocks many times before and during the shooting, even calling out for white hats to stand up specifically.

So yes, although everyone was a target that day, I can't see how someone can say that jocks weren't somewhat of a priority to them.

It would of made more sense to hit up the gym or weight room areas where they would most likely be.
That way they wouldn't have to play hide and seek like they did in the library.

Because they didn't originally intend the attack to be a shooting, they didn't fully focus on shooting. It's that simple.

I'm going to have to agree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] about killing jocks being somewhat of a priority based off of witness statements and their banter before and during the shooting. In highschool different groups always have one other group that they completely loath. In this case it seemed to be the tcm and kids of that nature and the jocks. They did walk into the library and specifically called for all jocks to stand up. So yeah although everyone was a target I definitely also think that jocks were a priority to a certain extent.

I feel as if they came across a jock and another person, they would aim at the jock first.

slippy123 wrote:

Nowhere did I say that they were strictly targeting jocks

But you did say:

slippy123 wrote:

It has always boggled my mind that they didn't go to the gym or weight room area, which would of probably had many jocks there, some of which probably gave them hell.
I don't know if it was just the adrenaline or what, but seeing as the jocks were their mortal enemies, I don't see why they wouldn't of at least checked that area out.

Which certainly gives me the impression that you think it was their number one goal to kill jocks. You can't tell me otherwise.

>talking  about what they said in the library
>still trying to maintain the "when the bombs failed" narrative

Just gotta lol at this point.

Also, Kate Batten, the lead investigator for JeffCo fwiw, says their taunts in the library were just whatever they thought of at the time. For example, they taunted Christians because people said "oh my god". The idea that they targeted blacks and Christians and jocks died when the bombs in the cafeteria were made public, and you haven't said how that doesn't contradict that notion, you've just doubled down. Completely agree with Han here.

And while they told jocks to stand up, they told everybody to stand up too. If you go by witness statements instead of books, you'll find a very different story. "Everybody get up; we're gonna blow the library up" is the first thing said to everyone. Consider, for example, John Savage saying he nearly stood up then. Was he a jock? No.

"To a certain extent', well how much of an extent matters. Not so much of an extent that they weren't literally trying to kill as many people as they could and become the most notorious domestic terrorists in US history, making the point very obvious for why they didn't go to a gym. Also, banter *before* the shooting? You mean the journals?

Anyway, to answer the question. They weren't in the cafeteria and there were bombs in there that they were trying to make explode by tossing pipe bombs. They shoot Dave in the hall. They don't enter the cafeteria until after 11:35 when the 2nd bomb fails, and then they are focused on the bomb.

As for the timeline, Sanders is supposedly shot around 11:26, and is running up the stairs, with students fleeing shortly after, at 11:24. I think cutting off the fleeing students and shooting them is exactly why they entered the west entrance, but thanks to Gardner's fire fight with Eric at that time they enter a bit late, and being bad shots they only manage to hit Stephanie Munson's ankle and Dave.

Ralph Larkin maintains the bombs were placed where jocks sat, but they were both placed half-way between 2 pillars. So, Larkin is either full of it, as I suspect, or they were incredibly lucky that jocks sat where it was best to take out the pillars. I don't think they would have put the bombs in a corner if jocks sat there. Larkin also thinks they were revolutionaries.

"It's common knowledge that the group of people that gave them the most shit were the jocks.
Eric hated the fact they were popular, had pretty girlfriends, nice cars, and got away with everything.
Eric wanted to have what they had so bad, to be accepted, respected, etc.

They both spoke about their hatred for the jocks many times before and during the shooting, even calling out for white hats to stand up specifically."

Common knowledge: see, not supported by evidence, but by repetition. Eric mentions the word jock precisely zero times in his journal. "they spoke about jocks many times before the shooting" is just lolwut, are people pretending they knew them? I missed the jock scene in Radioactive Clothing.

QuestionMark wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

Nowhere did I say that they were strictly targeting jocks

But you did say:

slippy123 wrote:

It has always boggled my mind that they didn't go to the gym or weight room area, which would of probably had many jocks there, some of which probably gave them hell.
I don't know if it was just the adrenaline or what, but seeing as the jocks were their mortal enemies, I don't see why they wouldn't of at least checked that area out.

Which certainly gives me the impression that you think it was their number one goal to kill jocks. You can't tell me otherwise.

Again nowhere does it say anything about a main priority whatsoever.
I can't help what impression you get from certain things, but that doesn't dictate what I meant.

I was simply stating that walking into the library asking for all the jocks to stand up was odd to me, when they could of probably found many jocks over by the gym area, where they wouldn't have to exclaim for anyone to get up from hiding behind desks.


Ah, the forum troll is back from his vacation
Let's see how long until he gets permanently banned, now that's something to lol at.

slippy123 wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

Nowhere did I say that they were strictly targeting jocks

But you did say:

slippy123 wrote:

It has always boggled my mind that they didn't go to the gym or weight room area, which would of probably had many jocks there, some of which probably gave them hell.
I don't know if it was just the adrenaline or what, but seeing as the jocks were their mortal enemies, I don't see why they wouldn't of at least checked that area out.

Which certainly gives me the impression that you think it was their number one goal to kill jocks. You can't tell me otherwise.

Again nowhere does it say anything about a main priority whatsoever.

>what is implication

QuestionMark wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

Nowhere did I say that they were strictly targeting jocks

But you did say:

slippy123 wrote:

It has always boggled my mind that they didn't go to the gym or weight room area, which would of probably had many jocks there, some of which probably gave them hell.
I don't know if it was just the adrenaline or what, but seeing as the jocks were their mortal enemies, I don't see why they wouldn't of at least checked that area out.

Which certainly gives me the impression that you think it was their number one goal to kill jocks. You can't tell me otherwise.

Again nowhere does it say anything about a main priority whatsoever.

>what is implication

Brother, the weight room might of been a more appropriate place for that objective in my opinion, that is all there is to that statement.
You should know by know that I never supported the idea of the jocks being the only people they were after.
I've always proclaimed that everyone was a target since I've joined this board.
We've had many conversions throughout topics regarding this, so I'm just thrown off a bit that you would even assume I was talking about jocks as a main priority , but to clarify, the above statement is what I meant.

tanman wrote:

I'm going to have to agree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] about killing jocks being somewhat of a priority based off of witness statements and their banter before and during the shooting. In highschool different groups always have one other group that they completely loath. In this case it seemed to be the tcm and kids of that nature and the jocks. They did walk into the library and specifically called for all jocks to stand up. So yeah although everyone was a target I definitely also think that jocks were a priority to a certain extent.  

I feel as if they came across a jock and another person, they would aim at the jock first.

Thanks pal.
That's pretty much the gist of it, in my opinion at least.

You got idiots who claim neither ever spoke of jocks or their hatred towards them.
Idiots who can't from their own opinion, so they copy and paste what investigators say like their opinions are facts and the gospel of Columbine.

Acting like he is the Columbine guru, yet can't even decipher an opinion from fact.

Remember this is the kid who was trying to tell us what Eric and Dylan were thinking at any given time during the massacre (dead serious)
The same kid banned from the forum for being a total and complete moron.

Now you see why he's known as the forum troll.
I know your new here so do yourself a favor and never respond to him, your IQ will thank you, it won't be long before he's gone for good .

The only reason I unblocked him is to know when that nice permanent ban is handed out, and to get a few good laughs here and there.

slippy123 wrote:

tanman wrote:

I'm going to have to agree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] about killing jocks being somewhat of a priority based off of witness statements and their banter before and during the shooting. In highschool different groups always have one other group that they completely loath. In this case it seemed to be the tcm and kids of that nature and the jocks. They did walk into the library and specifically called for all jocks to stand up. So yeah although everyone was a target I definitely also think that jocks were a priority to a certain extent.  

I feel as if they came across a jock and another person, they would aim at the jock first.

Thanks pal.
That's pretty much the gist of it, in my opinion at least.

You got idiots who claim neither ever spoke of jocks or their hatred towards them.
Idiots who can't from their own opinion, so they copy and paste what investigators say like their opinions are facts and the gospel of Columbine.

Acting like he is the Columbine guru, yet can't even decipher an opinion from fact.

Remember this is the kid who was trying to tell us what Eric and Dylan were thinking at any given time during the massacre (dead serious)
The same kid banned from the forum for being a total and complete moron.

Now you see why he's known as the forum troll, and watch how easy it is to bait him into a permanent ban.
I know your new here so do yourself a favor and never respond to him, your IQ will thank you, it won't be long before he's gone for good .

The only reason I unblocked him is to know when that nice permanent ban is handed out, and to get a few good laughs here and there.

Ya, people need to chill, there isn't any right or wrong opinion.
I will agree if someone makes a logical opinion that makes sense at least in my eyes, which in this case it does for the jocks and weight room discussion.
I noticed that most of his posts always talk down on someone or make some outlandish statements that leave me wondering what I just read lol.

I did see the post where he was saying what they were thinking during the shooting, which was funny.
Be humble, good life lesson.
Speaking of which I'm kind of bummed I share a similar user name haha although I've had this nickname since a kid.
I thought it was a known fact of Eric and Dylan's dislike for the jocks because of the shit they gave them and Eric wanted to be accepted like them??
Didn't Eric talk about ripping a jocks heart out and eating it or something on the Eric in Columbine video, or maybe it wasn't someone on a sports team.

I would say that saying they never said they hated jocks is not a true statement.
I also agree with your statement about making your own opinions.
I would personally never base anything off of what investigators say, over forming my own opinion after doing research.
There are a lot of things we will never know about this shooting and all we can do is form our own opinions, which are neither right or wrong.

slippy123 wrote:

We've had many conversions throughout topics regarding this, so I'm just thrown off a bit that you would even assume I was talking about jocks as a main priority , but to clarify, the above statement is what I meant.

*shrug*

I guess I forgot. My bad.

QuestionMark wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

We've had many conversions throughout topics regarding this, so I'm just thrown off a bit that you would even assume I was talking about jocks as a main priority , but to clarify, the above statement is what I meant.

*shrug*

I guess I forgot. My bad.

It's all good, it happens to the best of us.

tanman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

tanman wrote:

I'm going to have to agree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] about killing jocks being somewhat of a priority based off of witness statements and their banter before and during the shooting. In highschool different groups always have one other group that they completely loath. In this case it seemed to be the tcm and kids of that nature and the jocks. They did walk into the library and specifically called for all jocks to stand up. So yeah although everyone was a target I definitely also think that jocks were a priority to a certain extent.  

I feel as if they came across a jock and another person, they would aim at the jock first.

Thanks pal.
That's pretty much the gist of it, in my opinion at least.

You got idiots who claim neither ever spoke of jocks or their hatred towards them.
Idiots who can't from their own opinion, so they copy and paste what investigators say like their opinions are facts and the gospel of Columbine.

Acting like he is the Columbine guru, yet can't even decipher an opinion from fact.

Remember this is the kid who was trying to tell us what Eric and Dylan were thinking at any given time during the massacre (dead serious)
The same kid banned from the forum for being a total and complete moron.

Now you see why he's known as the forum troll, and watch how easy it is to bait him into a permanent ban.
I know your new here so do yourself a favor and never respond to him, your IQ will thank you, it won't be long before he's gone for good .

The only reason I unblocked him is to know when that nice permanent ban is handed out, and to get a few good laughs here and there.

Ya, people need to chill, there isn't any right or wrong opinion.
I will agree if someone makes a logical opinion that makes sense at least in my eyes, which in this case it does for the jocks and weight room discussion.
I noticed that most of his posts always talk down on someone or make some outlandish statements that leave me wondering what I just read lol.

I did see the post where he was saying what they were thinking during the shooting, which was funny.
Be humble, good life lesson.
Speaking of which I'm kind of bummed I share a similar user name haha although I've had this nickname since a kid.
I thought it was a known fact of Eric and Dylan's dislike for the jocks because of the shit they gave them and Eric wanted to be accepted like them??
Didn't Eric talk about ripping a jocks heart out and eating it or something on the Eric in Columbine video, or maybe it wasn't someone on a sports team.

I would say that saying they never said they hated jocks is not a true statement.
I also agree with your statement about making your own opinions.
I would personally never base anything off of what investigators say, over forming my own opinion after doing research.
There are a lot of things we will never know about this shooting and all we can do is form our own opinions, which are neither right or wrong.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head.
We have a good community here, and a good forum owner who doesn't play around when it comes to people disrupting our community, so it's only a matter of time.


If you're interested in Columbine, this is definitely the place to be.
If I haven't said it already, welcome to the forum, and enjoy your stay!

To say that Dylan and Eric only targeted jocks is incorrect, because they targeted the whole school. On the other hand to say that they didn't feel some kind of hatred or rage against jocks is, also, incorrect. The opinion's expressed here about Dylan and Eric wanting to fit in and failing to do so are right. We need to look at the culture at Columbine. It was very much about sports. Jocks were at the top of the "food chain". That would have been a subculture that neither Eric nor Dylan fit in with, but so desperately wanted the benefits associated with it. If we look at Columbine from the stand point that they wanted to be accepted, have girlfriends, be respected, etc. then we need to look at who was at the top and who that subculture would have been. That would have been the jocks. Whether or not Eric or Dylan explicitly stated the word "jock", it is pretty easy to infer that would be the culture at the school they were both referring to.

hvernon wrote:

To say that Dylan and Eric only targeted jocks is incorrect, because they targeted the whole school. On the other hand to say that they didn't feel some kind of hatred or rage against jocks is, also, incorrect. The opinion's expressed here about Dylan and Eric wanting to fit in and failing to do so are right. We need to look at the culture at Columbine. It was very much about sports. Jocks were at the top of the "food chain". That would have been a subculture that neither Eric nor Dylan fit in with, but so desperately wanted the benefits associated with it. If we look at Columbine from the stand point that they wanted to be accepted, have girlfriends, be respected, etc. then we need to look at who was at the top and who that subculture would have been. That would have been the jocks. Whether or not Eric or Dylan explicitly stated the word "jock", it is pretty easy to infer that would be the culture at the school they were both referring to.

Exactly!
I think that was the point [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was making.

The fact that they weren't [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] priority but defiantly had rage and wanted to frag jocks before they put the guns to their heads.
You also support my opinion that they wanted to have the admentities and perks that the jocks had, like being respected having pretty girlfriends and the whole nine.

Saying that they never spoke of hating jocks is one of the most asinine things you can say. How would one know what was said between them and friends, you'd have to be in their head...oh wait
Saying just because nothing was written in their journals means they never spoke of it is a pretty out there thing to say.

But good point, just because the word "jock" wasn't written doesn't mean they weren't making inferences about them.

I actually thought Dylan did write a little bit in his journal about hating jocks and he definitely expressed that sentiment to his mom and dad

Not sure why there is dissension on the thread. I didn't read [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] comments as following the "they only wanted to kill jocks" myth. Merely that they did mention white hats during the shooting and did ask Todd if he was a jock, which indicates they were thinking about jocks in some context at the time. And by extension, if they were thinking about them it would have made sense to target the gym/ weight room. I've read a lot of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 's posts and never got the impression they were confused about E & D wanting to kill everyone vs wanting to kill just jocks.

And to suggest that E & D didn't discuss their hatred for jocks prior to April 20, 1999 is confusing. Slippy is not just repeating nonsense, it is "common knowledge" to anyone who has researched Columbine to any extent.

Erik Veik, pg. 10912
Discussing Hit Men For Hire “Veik was the victim, and Vendegnia was the jock who was harassing Veik.” They had Vendegnia wear a white hat. It's clear they were suggesting the jocks were bullies.

Robyn Anderson p. 10624
“When asked if she ever heard Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold talk about teachers or students that they did not like at school, she replied there were no specific people but instead they in general did not get along with the jocks.”

Kellie Brown (Robyn Anderson’s best friend), pg. 10677
Described herself as close friends with Robyn and Dylan but did not know Eric well.
“Although Dylan was very much against ‘jocks,’ Eric was much more prejudice."

Kristi Epling pg. 10718
"Harris did not get along with the jocks at school. The jocks made fun of Harris because of the way he dressed. Harris had gym class before German class last year. Harris would tell Epling during German class that the “jocks” pissed him off and they did not even know who he was."

Cory Friesen pg. 10727
"That the last time he saw either was on April 09, 1999 at Eric’s birthday party at the Draft Bar & Grill at South West Plaza. That at this party both Eric and Dylan were talking about the “Jocks” and said they wished that they (Jocks) were all dead."

Chris Morris pg. 10841
“However, about two weeks ago Morris was privy to a conversation with Harris. This conversation took place at the morning bowling class. Harris was saying, “Wouldn’t it be fun to kill all the jocks?” Morris did not think Harris was serious, but Harris continued with comments about blowing up the school.”

Joe Stair Pg. 10893
In his year book, Dylan had written “Jocks suck dick.”

Sasha Jacobs pg. 13254
“Jacobs stated that Harris did not like “jocks” because they seemed to get preferential treatment and would harass him and Klebold.”

Christopher Kirk pg. 13275 (friend of Robyn Anderson, he turned over letters she'd written him)
“the letter was examined and it revealed that Anderson would be attending her Prom with Dylan Klebold. As well, the letter related Dylan hated dances, and jocks.”

Billy Dao pg. 10146 worked with Harris and Klebold at Blackjack
“When asked if he knew of Morris, Harris and Klebold disliking anyone, Dao related that he knew Harris and Morris hated “jocks”. They always stated that they didn’t like them.”

Michelle Hartsough pg. 10150, worked with them at Blackjack
“both Harris and Klebold often talked about wanting to blow up Columbine High School and kill the jocks. She said that they talked about it for about a year prior to her leaving the store, but she never took them seriously”

Robert Kirgis pg. 10582
“he did hear Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold mention about how “jocks” were picking on them.”

Brian Sargent (interviewed April 20, 1999) pg. 8784, Dylan is referred to as “Dan” but it’s clearly Dylan they are talking about based on other things discussed (their friends, the RNN in flames video)
“I asked Sargent about a possible motive for the killing His reply was that Eric and Dan were probably mad at the jocks for giving them crap.”

Screamingophelia wrote:

I actually thought Dylan did write a little bit in his journal about hating jocks and he definitely expressed that sentiment to his mom and dad

I found these mentions in Dylan's writings
Pg. 26,398 from 10/14/97 around the time Sasha broke up with him
“lucky bastard gets a perfect soulmate, who he can admit FUCKIN SUICIDE to & I get rejected for being honest about fuckin hate for jocks.”

And in Eric’s yearbook (pg. 26,235) he wrote “haha fag jocks have to get their doc martins wet. DIEEE”

His crime essay was also about killing jocks but I think he referred to them as "preps"

"Idiots who can't from their own opinion, so they copy and paste what investigators say like their opinions are facts and the gospel of Columbine." I'll take projection for 500; I couldn't disagree more with investigators. "can't even decipher an opinion from fact." Well are these opinions or common knowledge? Can't be both. I'd surely be banned if I called the fellow who barely speaks English an "idiot".

"who was trying to tell us what Eric and Dylan were thinking at any given time during the massacre "
Nope. Talk about confusing opinions, facts, and inferences. I'm the one who criticizes those who use mind reading instead of inferring from the facts. This is a cope. You won't see me post "Eric hated the fact they were popular, had pretty girlfriends, nice cars, and got away with everything. Eric wanted to have what they had so bad, to be accepted, respected, etc;" and "They were going to shoot from their cars, but when the bombs failed moved to the stairs, then shot up the library for the lols, then stopped shooting at 11:35 because they felt bad, then wandered the halls because they felt worse," the side I cite facts and inference  to criticize, is the side that has only clairvoyance and copypaste repetition as support.

"I don't know why they didn't go to the weight room to kill their mortal enemies - the jocks" could not be more "the massacre was about jocks" myth; can hardly fault Question Mark for that interpretation. Also, a prep is not the same thing as a jock, and Eric is not Dylan. A prep is a rich kid; a jock plays sports. Veik was dressed like a prep in Hitmen for Hire. Yes, Dylan mentioned jocks in his journal quite specifically as having lives and girlfriends. The claim was about Eric, who literally never mentioned them specifically in the journal.

And yes I too have read the 11k. Nobody disagrees that the perception after the massacre was that they wanted to kill jocks, but should it have been? and would that cloud statements? I didn't take the 11k to be what to cite as a reliable account of what happens before the massacre. It was also that they wanted to kill Christians and blacks; hence Kellie Brown's comment. The only ones that seem relevant for Eric specifically are Epling, Morris, and Jacobs comments, and the Morris one is clouded by the aspect of recruiting him. A far cry from common knowledge, it seems to me. Several people disagree with their ire being centered around jocks, and common knowledge would be something everybody agrees on - say that they begin shooting on the stairs.

thelmar wrote:

Not sure why there is dissension on the thread. I didn't read [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] comments as following the "they only wanted to kill jocks" myth. Merely that they did mention white hats during the shooting and did ask Todd if he was a jock, which indicates they were thinking about jocks in some context at the time. And by extension, if they were thinking about them it would have made sense to target the gym/ weight room. I've read a lot of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 's posts and never got the impression they were confused about E & D wanting to kill everyone vs wanting to kill just jocks.

And to suggest that E & D didn't discuss their hatred for jocks prior to April 20, 1999 is confusing. Slippy is not just repeating nonsense, it is "common knowledge" to anyone who has researched Columbine to any extent.

Erik Veik, pg. 10912
Discussing Hit Men For Hire “Veik was the victim, and Vendegnia was the jock who was harassing Veik.” They had Vendegnia wear a white hat. It's clear they were suggesting the jocks were bullies.

Robyn Anderson p. 10624
“When asked if she ever heard Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold talk about teachers or students that they did not like at school, she replied there were no specific people but instead they in general did not get along with the jocks.”

Kellie Brown (Robyn Anderson’s best friend), pg. 10677
Described herself as close friends with Robyn and Dylan but did not know Eric well.
“Although Dylan was very much against ‘jocks,’ Eric was much more prejudice."

Kristi Epling pg. 10718
"Harris did not get along with the jocks at school. The jocks made fun of Harris because of the way he dressed. Harris had gym class before German class last year. Harris would tell Epling during German class that the “jocks” pissed him off and they did not even know who he was."

Cory Friesen pg. 10727
"That the last time he saw either was on April 09, 1999 at Eric’s birthday party at the Draft Bar & Grill at South West Plaza. That at this party both Eric and Dylan were talking about the “Jocks” and said they wished that they (Jocks) were all dead."

Chris Morris pg. 10841
“However, about two weeks ago Morris was privy to a conversation with Harris. This conversation took place at the morning bowling class. Harris was saying, “Wouldn’t it be fun to kill all the jocks?” Morris did not think Harris was serious, but Harris continued with comments about blowing up the school.”

Joe Stair Pg. 10893
In his year book, Dylan had written “Jocks suck dick.”

Sasha Jacobs pg. 13254
“Jacobs stated that Harris did not like “jocks” because they seemed to get preferential treatment and would harass him and Klebold.”

Christopher Kirk pg. 13275 (friend of Robyn Anderson, he turned over letters she'd written him)
“the letter was examined and it revealed that Anderson would be attending her Prom with Dylan Klebold. As well, the letter related Dylan hated dances, and jocks.”

Billy Dao pg. 10146 worked with Harris and Klebold at Blackjack
“When asked if he knew of Morris, Harris and Klebold disliking anyone, Dao related that he knew Harris and Morris hated “jocks”. They always stated that they didn’t like them.”

Michelle Hartsough pg. 10150, worked with them at Blackjack
“both Harris and Klebold often talked about wanting to blow up Columbine High School and kill the jocks. She said that they talked about it for about a year prior to her leaving the store, but she never took them seriously”

Robert Kirgis pg. 10582
“he did hear Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold mention about how “jocks” were picking on them.”


Brian Sargent (interviewed April 20, 1999) pg. 8784, Dylan is referred to as “Dan” but it’s clearly Dylan they are talking about based on other things discussed (their friends, the RNN in flames video)
“I asked Sargent about a possible motive for the killing His reply was that Eric and Dan were probably mad at the jocks for giving them crap.”

Great post! So much for "never mentioning the jocks" before the shooting.
I guess some people really just talk out their behind

There is only an issue because of one person in this thread....
They mentioned preps in one essay and now he's trying to make it seem like they were all talking about preps from the start...oh boy...

Beyond pathetic that "never mentioning the jocks" is in quote marks like I ever said that.

"They mentioned preps in one essay and now he's trying to make it seem like they were all talking about preps from the start." You are simply lying here. I just said it's wrong that preps and jocks are the same thing, which is what thelmar said in reference to the one essay. Read what is actually said instead of letting slippy read for you.

cakeman wrote:

Beyond pathetic that "never mentioning the jocks" is in quote marks like I ever said that.

It's whatever man.
I stopped taking anything you said seriously back when I saw your posts about knowing what they were thinking during the shooting.

I would have to rebut by saying the only thing pathetic is you thinking you're some Columbine guru when you make zero sense 9 times out of 10.
I've been lurking here for a long time and the only issues here I've ever seen have come from you.
I mean come on, how hard is it to act like a grown adult?

Everything [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] said makes total sense, I can't say the same for you.
Now I get why he told me not even to bother to respond, and I'm already regretting not listening to him.

Literally lying about what I said and then when corrected "I dont care LOL". I never said "never mentioning the jocks"  and I never said they meant preps when they said jocks. I said the opposite, that thelmar is wrong to think preps and jocks mean the same thing. So your criticism is garbage and you are projecting being juvenile. Is that clear enough for you?

cakeman wrote:

Literally lying about what I said and then when corrected "I dont care LOL". I never said "never mentioning the jocks"  and I never said they meant preps when they said jocks. I said the opposite, that thelmar is wrong to think preps and jocks mean the same thing. So your criticism is garbage and you are projecting being juvenile. Is that clear enough for you?

Coming from the guy who said he knew what Eric and Dylan were thinking during the shooting LMAO!!!!


The only thing clear is that you're a clown.
Known as the forum troll, already banned for being a complete idiot.

Imagine being such a douche that people can't even stand you on an internet forum, how sad.

The only reason I said whatever is to get you to shut up already because my head hurts from hearing the garbage you spew.
Hopefully the owner hits you with another ban because you are cancer to this forum.

Everyone is wrong but you, the telltale signs of a nutcase.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] You were right, I messed up by responding to the troll, now I'm in space case land.

>"preps and jocks are not the same thing, thelmar. I don't think when they said preps they meant jocks."

>tanman: LOL WHAT AN IDIOT HES TRYING TO SAY BY JOCKS THEY MEANT PREPS

I'm dealing with real big brains.

"Coming from the guy who said he knew what Eric and Dylan were thinking during the shooting" Nope.

cakeman wrote:

>"preps and jocks are not the same thing, thelmar. I don't think when they said preps they meant jocks."

>LOL WHAT AN IDIOT HES TRYING TO SAY BY JOCKS THEY MEANT PREPS

I'm dealing with real big brains.

Enough already you attention seeking Eric and Dylan mind reading space case
Go outside or something, ask your parents for attention so you don't have to seek it on the internet.
Pathetic.

Leave it to us adults to have logical conversations.
You can't argue with a man that has the IQ of a child.

If you can't understand what [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was saying then you need to do some mental push-ups my guy.

tanman wrote:

cakeman wrote:

>"preps and jocks are not the same thing, thelmar. I don't think when they said preps they meant jocks."

>LOL WHAT AN IDIOT HES TRYING TO SAY BY JOCKS THEY MEANT PREPS

I'm dealing with real big brains.

Enough already you attention seeking Eric and Dylan mind reading space case  
Go outside or something, ask your parents for attention so you don't have to seek it on the internet.
Pathetic.

Leave it to us adults to have logical conversations.
You can't argue with a man that has the IQ of a child.

If you can't understand what [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was saying then you need to do some mental push-ups my guy.

" Eric and Dylan mind reading" Still never happened.

Thelmar said they referred to the jocks as preps in one instance. I doubted this, given jocks and preps are not equivalent. You pretended I was saying they were equivalent. How does that follow?

Edit: *crickets*

Guys please don't fight. This is a positive place, not WWE: columbine forum edition

cakeman wrote:

tanman wrote:

cakeman wrote:

>"preps and jocks are not the same thing, thelmar. I don't think when they said preps they meant jocks."

>LOL WHAT AN IDIOT HES TRYING TO SAY BY JOCKS THEY MEANT PREPS

I'm dealing with real big brains.

Enough already you attention seeking Eric and Dylan mind reading space case  
Go outside or something, ask your parents for attention so you don't have to seek it on the internet.
Pathetic.

Leave it to us adults to have logical conversations.
You can't argue with a man that has the IQ of a child.

If you can't understand what [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was saying then you need to do some mental push-ups my guy.

" Eric and Dylan mind reading" Still never happened.

Thelmar said they referred to the jocks as preps in one instance. I doubted this, given jocks and preps are not equivalent. You pretended I was saying they were equivalent. How does that follow?

Edit: *crickets*

Meanwhile multiple people on here saw the posts including myself.
Seriously, all jokes aside you might need some help dude.
A compulsive liar on top of a troll, what a combination.

HAHA he's going through all the posts down-voting them LMAO, holy shite, this dude is one sad case man.

Enjoy your time here because I can tell your days are numbered.
And this is where I stop giving you the attention you desperately seek.

Thanks for proving you really are just a troll with an attention issue.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I know I'm new here so my opinions might not matter much, but how is this dude not banned yet, name calling talking down on people and acting like he is better than everyone.

Kerea2244 wrote:

Guys please don't fight. This is a positive place, not WWE: columbine forum edition

Yeah, I apologize.
It wasn't my intent to argue. It wasn't until he started talking down on my opinions that I started defending myself.
This dude is just a troll of epic proportions, but I'm done.

cakeman wrote:

"Idiots who can't from their own opinion, so they copy and paste what investigators say like their opinions are facts and the gospel of Columbine." I'll take projection for 500; I couldn't disagree more with investigators. "can't even decipher an opinion from fact." Well are these opinions or common knowledge? Can't be both... Also, a prep is not the same thing as a jock, and Eric is not Dylan. A prep is a rich kid; a jock plays sports....The claim was about Eric, who literally never mentioned them specifically in the journal.

And yes I too have read the 11k. Nobody disagrees that the perception after the massacre was that they wanted to kill jocks, but should it have been? and would that cloud statements? ... The only ones that seem relevant for Eric specifically are Epling, Morris, and Jacobs comments, and the Morris one is clouded by the aspect of recruiting him. A far cry from common knowledge, it seems to me. Several people disagree with their ire being centered around jocks, and common knowledge would be something everybody agrees on - say that they begin shooting on the stairs.

Still not sure why you become so angry over posts on a message board. Calling me an idiot, did that make you feel better?

First, in Dylan's essay he writes, "The other one tried to lunge at the man, hoping that his football tackling skills would save his life."

So my impression that Dylan equated preps with jocks comes from Dylan's words which is the only way we can get an idea of how Eric and Dylan felt about anything.  

When mocking Slippy, you said, "Common knowledge: see, not supported by evidence, but by repetition."
The 11k is evidence, regardless of your feelings about investigators. Do you think that investigators added in the bullying and jock hate stuff themselves? If so, where is your evidence?

Cory Friesen's statement was taken on April 20, 1999, before all the bullying stuff was in the media. Cory knew Eric well enough to be invited to his birthday party and Cory said Eric spoke of wishing all the jocks were dead.

Kristi Epling and Eric were good friends. Her first statement was taken on April 21, there may have been some bully stuff in the news at that point but it was not pervasive.

I'm unclear what you mean about Morris' statement being clouded by the aspect of recruiting him. Morris' statement was one of the first one's taken because he literally contacted investigators multiple times to try to help. He was interviewed within like two hours of the start of the attack; of anyone's his claims of Harris talking about jocks would seem to be the most reliable as there was very little information about what was going on to taint what he had to say.

Kirgis' interview was done on April 27, Dao and Hartsough on April 29. Bullying was in the news at this point but their statements were given independently and are very consistent with one another. Hartsough no longer worked at Blackjack so it's unlikely that she discussed Harris and Klebold with Dao and Kirgis.

thelmar wrote:

cakeman wrote:

"Idiots who can't from their own opinion, so they copy and paste what investigators say like their opinions are facts and the gospel of Columbine." I'll take projection for 500; I couldn't disagree more with investigators. "can't even decipher an opinion from fact." Well are these opinions or common knowledge? Can't be both... Also, a prep is not the same thing as a jock, and Eric is not Dylan. A prep is a rich kid; a jock plays sports....The claim was about Eric, who literally never mentioned them specifically in the journal.

And yes I too have read the 11k. Nobody disagrees that the perception after the massacre was that they wanted to kill jocks, but should it have been? and would that cloud statements? ... The only ones that seem relevant for Eric specifically are Epling, Morris, and Jacobs comments, and the Morris one is clouded by the aspect of recruiting him. A far cry from common knowledge, it seems to me. Several people disagree with their ire being centered around jocks, and common knowledge would be something everybody agrees on - say that they begin shooting on the stairs.

Still not sure why you become so angry over posts on a message board. Calling me an idiot, did that make you feel better?

First, in Dylan's essay he writes, "The other one tried to lunge at the man, hoping that his football tackling skills would save his life."

So my impression that Dylan equated preps with jocks comes from Dylan's words which is the only way we can get an idea of how Eric and Dylan felt about anything.  

When mocking Slippy, you said, "Common knowledge: see, not supported by evidence, but by repetition."
The 11k is evidence, regardless of your feelings about investigators. Do you think that investigators added in the bullying and jock hate stuff themselves? If so, where is your evidence?

Cory Friesen's statement was taken on April 20, 1999, before all the bullying stuff was in the media. Cory knew Eric well enough to be invited to his birthday party and Cory said Eric spoke of wishing all the jocks were dead.

Kristi Epling and Eric were good friends. Her first statement was taken on April 21, there may have been some bully stuff in the news at that point but it was not pervasive.

I'm unclear what you mean about Morris' statement being clouded by the aspect of recruiting him. Morris' statement was one of the first one's taken because he literally contacted investigators multiple times to try to help. He was interviewed within like two hours of the start of the attack; of anyone's his claims of Harris talking about jocks would seem to be the most reliable as there was very little information about what was going on to taint what he had to say.

Kirgis' interview was done on April 27, Dao and Hartsough on April 29. Bullying was in the news at this point but their statements were given independently and are very consistent with one another. Hartsough no longer worked at Blackjack so it's unlikely that she discussed Harris and Klebold with Dao and Kirgis.

I never called you an idiot thelmar, nor would I do so. There are quote marks around that, and it was slippy (aka tanman) calling *me* an idiot. Hence I said I'd be banned if I did that. So, you have to ask him, while he pretends I deleted posts and fakes support because he can't just own up to his own failings and answer my simple question.

I get that was your impression. But you also cited Hitmen for Hire. Well, in Hitmen for Hire, the jock is picking on the prep. Thus it seems to me these are obviously not the same thing. Hitmen for Hire is also evidence. They are also extorting preps in Hitmen for Hire. Some jocks are preps, but not all preps are jocks seems the obvious conclusion. And Dylan seems to be killing all the preps, even the small ones, in that story.

I didn't say investigators added to it, I said the witness statements in the 11K are post-massacre and colored by the media and, independent of media, the interpretation soon after that they were  targeting jocks/blacks/christians due to their comments in the library. It was not something I was considering as evidence of their state of mind before the massacre, and certainly not of pre-massacre common knowledge, of facts not in contention, about Eric's inner thoughts (but I'm mind reading) about the jocks. Anything before 4/22 is also before the bombs were made public, which is how that interpretation dies.

Did not mean to seem as if I discounted Epling or Friesen's statement more than what the above requires. The quote from Friesen just wasn't explicit it was Eric or Dylan, when the point was about Eric, and I gave you Epling despite the bomb and other issues. I'm saying Morris being a potential third shooter clouds whether, for example, that was Eric's true feeling or trying to appeal to Morris's feelings.

For those keeping score:
Thelmar: In this one instance, preps and jocks are equivalent
Me: In no instances are preps and jocks equivalent
Slippy/Tanman: Cakeman is pretending preps and jocks are always equivalent!
Me: How so?
Slippy/Tanman: REEEEEEE

slippy123 wrote:

Miasmom1028 wrote:

So I was going over the video footage of the commons just now and saw Dave Sanders run up the stairs to warn others. This is where he (to my understanding) ran into Eric and Dylan where they shot him. Moments after he ran up the stairs and the flood of students followed. So why didn't Eric or Dylan start shooting at the mass students running out the door?

It all comes down to the fact that they had no solid plan B.
That is why when you sit back and look at their movements throughout the school, you'll realize they were just winging it as they went along.
I believe once they realized the bombs failed their morale dropped drastically.
After all, the bombs were the main part of the plan, as Columbine was supposed to be a bombing first, shooting second.

They wondered the halls of the science wing looking into classrooms filled with kids, yet made no attempt to gain entry or shoot through any of the doors.
Then they wandered to the cafeteria in a last ditch attempt to try to get the bombs to detonate.
It seems that neither really did research about propane since shooting propane tanks that small rarely causes an explosion, as propane isn't very combustible when shot. (Mythbusters proved this)

It seems to me that they really put all their faith into those bombs. In typical teenager fashion they thought they were the best at what they did, and that was a big part of their downfall.
They got cocky and thought they were better than everyone and the best at what they did.
I have no doubts that they both died disappointed as Columbine was essentially a failure.

The bombs failed, Eric talked about killing 400 people, Dylan mentioned wanting to kill 250, and they didn't kill anyone on their shit-list or any of the people who made their lives hell.
From reading their journal entries, they pictured the school on fire after the bombs exploded killing hundreds in the cafeteria, with kids running for their lives while getting mowed down by the dozens.
In the end, they killed 13 people, and basically their judgement day ended up being a flop, as hardly anything went down the way they planned.

It has always boggled my mind that they didn't go to the gym or weight room area, which would of probably had many jocks there, some of which probably gave them hell.
I don't know if it was just the adrenaline or what, but seeing as the jocks were their mortal enemies, I don't see why they wouldn't of at least checked that area out.
Instead they hit up the library and wondered the science area hallways.

Many people here have asked the same question, and unfortunately we will never have a direct answer since Eric and Dylan are long gone.
All we can do is analyze and come to our own conclusions and theories about certain aspects of the massacre.  

Welcome to the forum by the way, enjoy your stay.

Simple. Because jocks weren't the main reason for Columbine High School's shooting. They wanted to target everyone, and wanted to get a high body count, which is why they specifically aimed at the Cafeteria. When the bombs were failing, they more than likely went to the library, because they knew the library was just above the cafeteria, and they were still at that point trying to get the bombs to blow up to die in the explosion, and destroy Columbine High School.

Eric even said to Bree in the library that they're all going to die anyway.

Also most of the bullshit stories we heard of Eric and Dylan getting bullied badly are just that...bullshit. Or stories mixed in with the Trench Coat mafia members, who the media, and many Columbiners still associate Eric and Dylan as being part of that group, so they add stories to it. Just like the whole "Rocky made Eric and Dylan suffer" bullshit. Trust me. That is absolute nonsense. And you can tell right off the bat that it's BS. If anything Rocky was an asshole no doubt, but specifically aiming at just Eric and Dylan? Negative. He probably didn't even know the two. As far as he knew just another two dorks that he said a wise ass comment to once or twice at school.

Eric and Dylan were such vile pieces of shit, and they by no means were getting harassed/bullied any worse than anyone else in that school by the meatheads in 1998 who fucked with everyone.

Mr or Mrs lol, logical, modus ponens inferences from the facts like:

P1) If they tried to kill everyone, then jocks weren't the target
P2) They tried to kill everyone
C1) Jocks weren't the target

P1) If Eric told Bree everybody in the library is going to die when they blow up the school, then they still expected the library to explode
P2) Eric told Bree everybody in the library is going to die when they blow up the school
C2) They still expected the library to explode

P1) If they still expected the library to explode, then they didnt start shooting because the bombs failed
P2) They still expected the library to explode (C2)
C3) They didn't start shooting because the bombs failed

are mind reading, while saying this is all false because Eric dreamed every night of killing jocks isn't, and should get all dissenters banned for trolling.

cakeman wrote:

I never called you an idiot thelmar, nor would I do so. There are quote marks around that, and it was slippy (aka tanman) calling *me* an idiot.

No one should be calling anyone an idiot over message board posts. My apologies for thinking you directed this at me.

cakeman wrote:

I get that was your impression. But you also cited Hitmen for Hire. Well, in Hitmen for Hire, the jock is picking on the prep. Thus it seems to me these are obviously not the same thing. Hitmen for Hire is also evidence. They are also extorting preps in Hitmen for Hire. Some jocks are preps, but not all preps are jocks seems the obvious conclusion. And Dylan seems to be killing all the preps, even the small ones, in that story.

My take on Veik's character in Hitmen differs from yours. He doesn't look like a prep to me. Even when he's got the tie and jacket on it's a weird tie and his pants are pulled way up, like a geek. His voice and mannerisms and saying that people make fun of him, it sounds like he's supposed to be the hapless nerd. I also don't remember any extortion scenes, though I admit the audio is crap in parts so maybe I'm missing it. All of I have to go on with the preps to jocks debate is Dylan's essay, and it's certainly not a hill I'd choose to die on. It's my view that he intended to indicate that the victims, or at least some of them, were jocks.

cakeman wrote:

I didn't say investigators added to it

I know, I was asking if that's what you were implying by the statement.

cakeman wrote:

I said the 11K is post-massacre and colored by the media and, independent of media, the interpretation soon after that they were  targeting jocks/blacks/christians. It was not something I was considering as evidence of their state of mind before the massacre, and certainly not of common knowledge, of facts not in contention. Anything before 4/22 is also before the bombs were made public, which is how that interpretation dies.

Understood. But since Friesen's and Epling's statements were April 20 and 21, respectively, (pre-bomb info release to the press) they have weight regarding Eric's view on jocks. And Friesen did say explicitly that it was both Eric and Dylan saying they wished all the jocks were dead. Brian Sargent's statement was also taken on 4/20 and he speculated that a possible motive was that they were mad at the jocks for giving them crap. I would infer from this that he'd had a discussion over such things with one of them, but I'll grant that it could have been Dylan and not Eric.

cakeman wrote:

I'm saying Morris being a potential third shooter clouds whether that was Eric's true feeling or trying to appeal to Morris's feelings, for example.

I see. Morris also said, at that time, that "Harris was constantly picked on by the jocks because he was small."
It's reasonable to infer that Eric would hate jocks as a result of this. Moreover, on pg. 8897 "Chris told T. Dow-Wyatt that he used to be part of the Trench Coat Mafia, but fell into disfavor. He reportedly fell into disfavor because Eric would reportedly start fights with the jocks and Chris wouldn’t back him up."
Being picked on and trying to start fights would indicate that Eric didn't like jocks.

By this time, on this message board, I think everyone should be acutely aware of the fact that Eric and Dylan intended to cause death and destruction on a grand scale. It was not limited to the school and it's occupants; the car bombs were intended for first responders. I don't think there are many on here who feel that whatever bullying they may have received was the sole, or even a main cause, of their attack or that jocks were their main target. But it's not incorrect to point out that they did mention a hate for jocks before the massacre and they did mention white hats and ask if Todd was a jock during the massacre, either, because we know those things happened. These events are not mutually exclusive from their desire to kill everyone.

thelmar wrote:

By this time, on this message board, I think everyone should be acutely aware of the fact that Eric and Dylan intended to cause death and destruction on a grand scale. It was not limited to the school and it's occupants; the car bombs were intended for first responders. I don't think there are many on here who feel that whatever bullying they may have received was the sole, or even a main cause, of their attack or that jocks were their main target. But it's not incorrect to point out that they did mention a hate for jocks before the massacre and they did mention white hats and ask if Todd was a jock during the massacre, either, because we know those things happened. These events are not mutually exclusive from their desire to kill everyone.

I agree. We've had many threads stating exactly what you've said: the boys intended to attack the entire school. This is a known fact and should be known by everyone here given this forum draws more serious researchers. I was confused by the kerfuffle in the thread because I don't understand why we are acting as those these events are mutually exclusive. Eric and Dylan did most certainly say things about jocks during the shooting, but this in no way means that was the only group of people they were attacking. They also made racist statements, but no one draws conclusions about the massacre targeting only people of color. And it's because those two things aren't mutually exclusive. I think there's a lot of confusion in this thread with people assuming that Dylan and Eric's hatred for the jocks and the events of the massacre must be mutually exclusive. The things said in the library were just taunts that Dylan and Eric made to the poor kids who were hiding under the tables. Did these some of these taunts reflect Eric and Dylan's feelings about certain groups of people? Yes. An example of that would be asking those in white hats to stand up and asking students if they were jocks. But does that mean these were the only groups of people targeted by the massacre? Obviously, no.

thelmar wrote:

My take on Veik's character in Hitmen differs from yours. He doesn't look like a prep to me. Even when he's got the tie and jacket on it's a weird tie and his pants are pulled way up, like a geek. His voice and mannerisms and saying that people make fun of him, it sounds like he's supposed to be the hapless nerd. I also don't remember any extortion scenes, though I admit the audio is crap in parts so maybe I'm missing it. All of I have to go on with the preps to jocks debate is Dylan's essay, and it's certainly not a hill I'd choose to die on. It's my view that he intended to indicate that the victims, or at least some of them, were jocks.

Pretty sure I remember it specifically noted that he was dressed 'preppy', though I can't remember by whom, as unless it was Chris it wouldn't have been anybody in it. It might be Brooks which can be taken with a certain grain of salt but is still relevant. Preps usually are hapless nerds way more than jocks. It means you go to an expensive school and are straight-laced and conform rather than skip class and take "sports psychology" or something like a jock.  I'm sure you know Eric before junior year was described as "preppy", and I don't think he was ever a jock. And I agree that some of them in the story were jocks. One cant ignore the football tackling comment, but one also can't ignore that preps and jocks are completely different subcultures, hence the different names; hence I said I think the most charitable way to interpret all of this is that some jocks are preps, but not all jocks are preps, nor all preps are jocks. Presumably the little prep in Dylan's story is not a jock.

Cullen, for one (I know) describes it as extortion and the scene where they walk off together in front of the fan has them say Veik's prep/nerd/victim/whatever character is getting annoying and they're gonna kill him too, as I understood. It certainly doesn't seem like they like him.

Quote :

Understood. But since Friesen's and Epling's statements were April 20 and 21, respectively, (pre-bomb info release to the press) they have weight regarding Eric's view on jocks. And Friesen did say explicitly that it was both Eric and Dylan saying they wished all the jocks were dead. Brian Sargent's statement was also taken on 4/20 and he speculated that a possible motive was that they were mad at the jocks for giving them crap. I would infer from this that he'd had a discussion over such things with one of them, but I'll grant that it could have been Dylan and not Eric.

I think they have less weight pre-bomb info because finding those is what kills the "they were gunning for jocks, blacks, and Christians" narrative prevalent shortly after due to what they said in the library. And I get your point on Friesen, but my point is can still be Dylan egging on, etc which is not as good as Eric alone for what he thought.

Quote :

I see. Morris also said, at that time, that "Harris was constantly picked on by the jocks because he was small."
It's reasonable to infer that Eric would hate jocks as a result of this. Moreover, on pg. 8897 "Chris told T. Dow-Wyatt that he used to be part of the Trench Coat Mafia, but fell into disfavor. He reportedly fell into disfavor because Eric would reportedly start fights with the jocks and Chris wouldn’t back him up."
Being picked on and trying to start fights would indicate that Eric didn't like jocks.

There's still the issue of coping after the massacre with the jocks being the interpretation that was in the air due to what they said in the library, but regardless, I think it's probably true that Eric was picked on. However, he doesn't mention jocks in his journal, but Dylan does, but not as bullies, and it's hard to imagine Dylan getting picked on with his height.

Quote :

By this time, on this message board, I think everyone should be acutely aware of the fact that Eric and Dylan intended to cause death and destruction on a grand scale. It was not limited to the school and it's occupants; the car bombs were intended for first responders. I don't think there are many on here who feel that whatever bullying they may have received was the sole, or even a main cause, of their attack or that jocks were their main target. But it's not incorrect to point out that they did mention a hate for jocks before the massacre and they did mention white hats and ask if Todd was a jock during the massacre, either, because we know those things happened. These events are not mutually exclusive from their desire to kill everyone.

Well, not that you are, but if one is confused why they didn't target the gym, they are still to some degree stuck in that phase pre bomb discovery and pre-journal release where they see what they said in the library as the only thing capable of deciding the motive. And while I think a healthy skepticism to JeffCo is warranted, it's worth noting that Batten writes off what they said in the library about jocks/blacks/christians as spur of the moment. Like hvernon just said, we don't (any more) use blacks or Christians as anything but taunts in the moment. For some reason, the same isn't true of jocks, but it probably should be. Nobody says "I am astonished they didn't attack a church." Most importantly to me, it makes people ignore that they said everybody in the library was gonna die, and it seems absurd to say that was a meaningless taunt, which destroys the orthodox narrative. "The bombs failing killed their morale" - nope, what bombs failing? they thought the library was gonna explode.

Also not 100% positive the car bombs were for first responders - that's an opinion, not a fact, though I lean towards it probably was. Regardless, there was certainly no way they were getting just jocks with those. Also hard for me to accept 100% Todd's story as it's changed so much though I still tend to believe it as you have it. It seems to me there are several interpretations for talking about jocks in the library that doesn't make jocks a motive or contradict the evidence. Aside from the above one "it was just a taunt bro", it  may have been the white hats being seen as  targets like Doom zombies green hair, as they were telling people to stand up so they can shoot them. It might have been whoever was biggest in the school since they felt in charge now. Another one is Dylan egging Eric on, similar to what Sue feels is going on in the Basement Tapes.  Dylan, who wants to die and/or kill jocks for having girlfriends, is saying "this is for the bullying, jocks!" (I know that's not a quote) to set Eric off. And there are probably others.

Now imagine (again, not you doing it) accusing me of mind reading for saying why the car bombs? idk; why taunt the jocks? idk "they lost morale when the bombs failed" nope false mind reading contradicted by the facts "they went to the stairs when the bombs failed" nope false mind reading contradicted by the facts "they stopped shooting because they felt bad" nope false mind reading contradicted by the facts "jocks were the main target" nope false mind reading contradicted by the facts. Bizarre copeposting to say I'm mind reading. At best that's code for "you're not agreeing with the narrative learned on one's first day studying the massacre".

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - It is against the forum rules to abuse the reputation system which is what you are doing by downvoting every single post someone you don't like makes. Please stop.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - It is against the forum rules to have more than 1 active account. As of right now, you have 2. You need to pick which one you want and the other will be permanently deleted.

Also, no more arguing and/or insulting each other on this forum. Agree to disagree and move on. Geez.

Didn't think I did every one; I did it to those on the page after every one of mine was when I asked  him a question, but will use it more sparingly in general.  Have tried to move on then get two accounts reeing at me, and this is the third time with him where I haven't started it with the insults but got more or equal blame.

cakeman wrote:

Didn't think I did every one; I did it to those on the page after every one of mine was when I asked  him a question, but will use it more sparingly in general.  Have tried to move on then get two accounts reeing at me, and this is the third time with him where I haven't started it with the insults but got more or equal blame.

Alright, well obviously you and him need to just stop talking because all you're doing is arguing back and forth. And no, I'm not blaming you more than him.

I'm addressing everyone in the thread about the arguing/insulting each other.

Most of these discussions are opinions and no one's opinion is wrong, whether you like it or agree with it or not. And yes, that goes for your opinions too. Share yours all you want but you also have to accept that others might not agree and have opinions of their own.

And I've already addressed that he has 2 accounts. Once he decides which one he wants to keep, the other one will be deleted.

And finally (addressing everyone), unless you're a member of the staff, please do not warn or threaten other members with "bans".

Thank you and let's get back to the discussions instead of arguing.

So I was going over the video footage of the commons just now and saw Dave Sanders run up the stairs to warn others. This is where he (to my understanding) ran into Eric and Dylan where they shot him. Moments after he ran up the stairs and the flood of students followed. So why didn't Eric or Dylan start shooting at the mass students running out the door?


It all comes down to the fact that they had no solid plan B.
That is why when you sit back and look at their movements throughout the school, you'll realize they were just winging it as they went along.
I believe once they realized the bombs failed their morale dropped drastically.
After all, the bombs were the main part of the plan, as Columbine was supposed to be a bombing first, shooting second.

They wondered the halls of the science wing looking into classrooms filled with kids, yet made no attempt to gain entry or shoot through any of the doors.
Then they wandered to the cafeteria in a last ditch attempt to try to get the bombs to detonate.
It seems that neither really did research about propane since shooting propane tanks that small rarely causes an explosion, as propane isn't very combustible when shot. (Mythbusters proved this)

It seems to me that they really put all their faith into those bombs. In typical teenager fashion they thought they were the best at what they did, and that was a big part of their downfall.
They got cocky and thought they were better than everyone and the best at what they did.
I have no doubts that they both died disappointed as Columbine was essentially a failure.

The bombs failed, Eric talked about killing 400 people, Dylan mentioned wanting to kill 250, and they didn't kill anyone on their shit-list or any of the people who made their lives hell.
From reading their journal entries, they pictured the school on fire after the bombs exploded killing hundreds in the cafeteria, with kids running for their lives while getting mowed down by the dozens.
In the end, they killed 13 people, and basically their judgement day ended up being a flop, as hardly anything went down the way they planned.

It has always boggled my mind that they didn't go to the gym or weight room area, which would of probably had many jocks there, some of which probably gave them hell.
I don't know if it was just the adrenaline or what, but seeing as the jocks were their mortal enemies, I don't see why they wouldn't of at least checked that area out.
Instead they hit up the library and wondered the science area hallways.

Many people here have asked the same question, and unfortunately we will never have a direct answer since Eric and Dylan are long gone.
All we can do is analyze and come to our own conclusions and theories about certain aspects of the massacre.  

Welcome to the forum by the way, enjoy your stay.


The reason why they didn’t target the weight room was because they were so focused on the bombs. In fact, Eric makes his first suicide chance by shooting at the propane bombs after exiting the library. They placed the bombs where they would inflict the most structural damage, ergo obtaining the highest maximum body count. Keep in mind, their own friends were in there. That says a lot about their mindset. The placing of the bombs had nothing to do with the location of where the jocks sat in the commons area. Eric even did surveillance and wrote/drew detailed notes on the lunchtimes of each grade, the time when the maximum amount of students was in the cafeteria, and the amount of students sitting in areas.

Randy Brown (no comment) summed it up best in the Zero Day documentary- and I’m paraphrasing here- “They didn’t go to the police station. They went to the school because that’s the place they hated the most.”

After years of extensive research I truly believe that the motive for the massacre is revenge and infamy. They were ostracized by the majority of their peers. One peer even said they were the outcasts of the outcasts at the main bottom of the totem pole.

Their behavior that day (my opinion) was this persona they took. They had no power or control at that school. For once in their lives, they wanted to be the ones to exert power and make the decisions. But also keep in mind that both boys did have behavioral differences that day as well.

Also, this part I’m not 100% sure about, so please correct me: Dave Sanders heard the gunshots and explosions outside before the boys got to the commons area. They shot Rachel and Richard, then spent time shooting towards students fleeing through Clement Park. By the time they got to the commons the students had fled up the staircases and exited at the opposite ends/doors of the school. Dave wasn’t shot in the commons or running up the stairs to warn others. He was shot by Dylan in a hallway. If I’m not mistaken he was trying to lock doors from the outside.

true_crime wrote:

Also, this part I’m not 100% sure about, so please correct me: Dave Sanders heard the gunshots and explosions outside before the boys got to the commons area. They shot Rachel and Richard, then spent time shooting towards students fleeing through Clement Park. By the time they got to the commons the students had fled up the staircases and exited at the opposite ends/doors of the school. Dave wasn’t shot in the commons or running up the stairs to warn others. He was shot by Dylan in a hallway. If I’m not mistaken he was trying to lock doors from the outside.

According to witness reports and the police timeline, Sanders ran up the stairs and then down the library hall to warn people to flee and/ or hide. He then ran towards the Science hall and as he began to turn the corner, he was shot from behind by Eric.