Strange Behavior during the shootings

Does anybody get as baffled by some of the boys actions during the shooting. A few examples of this are

Dylan apologizing to Sean Graves after stepping on him even though he had just attempted to murder him a few moments prior.

Eric making eye contact with students in classrooms and just walking away.

Eric asking for John Savage to “identify himself” the only case in which he did so to my knowledge

Dylans basically bipolar attitude in the library ( hooting and hollering like a madman to calmly carrying a conversation John savage to Smashing a computer with rage)

What are your thoughts? Do you guys find their actions during the shooting a little interesting?

N/A

Yes, very. My peculiar theory of the massacre is because drawing inferences from their behavior does not match what we are told. Most notably, witnesses clearly recall them saying the library is going to explode when we are told the bombs failed ages ago by that point. There are also various things people seem to ignore, e. g. Eric staying on top of the stairs, not Dylan; Eric shooting at police, not Dylan.  There are also things nobody ignores, but I think because of other assumptions, like that both bombs failed before it starts, they buy a faulty explanation for why, e. g. that they stop shooting, that they leave the library, that they wander the halls. Why they begin shooting is also a big one for me, since I don't buy the usual story, and why they return the library to die is a big one for some others I respect.  I could go on with other strange elements.

The bit with Sean I don't find all that enlightening for what he said. I think he just meant "Sorry but it had to be this way." I don't think it's remorse or anything. Perhaps just a reflex. But I think the action of stepping over him might clue one in to Dylan's actions had the bomb worked. Presumably, had it worked, he was going to keep walking, and shoot those fleeing. He may have had to step over glass and bodies if he was going to, say, walk to the south entrance and back. He may have prepared himself to do this, and so did it with Sean when it didn't explode, or something like that.

I'm not so clear about the details of looking into the classrooms and such. It seems some sources say they don't try to break in, and others do. Though, again, if say their focus was on the bombs, or police, and the doors were locked anyway, it's not that surprising that he wouldn't go in; but if there were people he would probably at least look.

Yeah, why John is strange. That he was told to run (and several witnesses saying they said it was because of the bomb) also clues you in to a bomb still being live in their minds. Not like they were forced to shoot him if he stayed, but if like they said, everybody in the library was going to die when it blows up, then it makes sense to tell him to run. But before that, just with Eric and John, is strange too. For me too, as far as I know, it's the only case with Eric telling someone to identify himself. It seems like that wouldn't be the first person Eric saw whom he knew, and that Dylan was maybe friendly with John but not Eric. It's possible it was just time to pick a survivor to tell the story. Assuming that's it's not just because they knew him or time to pick someone, and it's something John did, the only thing I can think of is that he moved away from the gun. That's what he said he did, so maybe it's why "natural selection" asked who he was to spare him.  I'm not sure of anybody else moving away once it was pointed at them either.

Not sure I see the bipolar. I guess you can contrast how he speaks to Lance or John or Val with how he speaks to Evan or the library in general, but seems like different things are happening then and to different people. I think he just smashed a chair on the main counter. Not sure if there was a computer it hit, but I wouldn't be surprised. There was a damaged computer on the double rows too, but supposedly that's from a police bullet shooting through the emergency exit.

I think we are often over-analyzing.
We humans are sometimes very afraid of explanation that some things are simply done for no reason, spontaneously, without any intention.
Especially in a situation like this, I think a lot of E&D's actions were completely without deeper meaning.

NickValentine wrote:

Does anybody get as baffled by some of the boys actions during the shooting. A few examples of this are

Dylan apologizing to Sean Graves after stepping on him even though he had just attempted to murder him a few moments prior.

I feel fairly certain Dylan was being sarcastic.

QuestionMark wrote:

NickValentine wrote:

Does anybody get as baffled by some of the boys actions during the shooting. A few examples of this are

Dylan apologizing to Sean Graves after stepping on him even though he had just attempted to murder him a few moments prior.

I feel fairly certain Dylan was being sarcastic.

I feel the same.

I also found it interesting that Eric seemed very stoic but then jumped up on the bookshelf and started swearing.

Did we ever have confirmation if the "Woo's" on the 911 call after the pipe bombs exploded were Eric or Dylan. Some people say it was Eric because he was more interested in the bombs..

Truly yes, the boys communicated with the people in the library in different ways and that is quite interesting. In fact it is an attitude that is repeated in several mass shootings, for example Sandy Hooks.

Yep. Their behavior during the shooting was indeed bizarre. There is no doubt in my mind that the gravity of committing murder, and the fact that there was no putting the genie back in the bottle and they'd either die that day or rot in a cell for the rest of their lives, made Eric and Dylan experience dissociation during the shooting. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

In this state, The Boys were detached from what was going on and it didn't feel real to them. That's why they were whooping it up and having the time of their lives. They felt like they were in a videogame or a movie. When it wore off, they dicked around shooting at lockers and peering into classrooms instead of killing.

Yes, very. My peculiar theory of the massacre is because drawing inferences from their behavior does not match what we are told. Most notably, witnesses clearly recall them saying the library is going to explode when we are told the bombs failed ages ago by that point. There are also various things people seem to ignore, e. g. Eric staying on top of the stairs, not Dylan; Eric shooting at police, not Dylan.  There are also things nobody ignores, but I think because of other assumptions, like that both bombs failed before it starts, they buy a faulty explanation for why, e. g. that they stop shooting, that they leave the library, that they wander the halls. Why they begin shooting is also a big one for me, since I don't buy the usual story, and why they return the library to die is a big one for some others I respect.  I could go on with other strange elements.

I truly believe they went back to the library for the best vantage point to shoot at first responders and to see the car bombs explode. I definitely agree with you about their behavior doesn’t fit Jeffco’s storyline.

As for baffling behavior:
1. Having Eric asking John to identify himself hiding under the table. Didn’t John move backwards a bit when Eric aimed under the table? And there’s really no connection between Eric and John. It seems like John and Dylan were acquaintances and definitely not close friends.

2. Dylan whooping it up in the library, when he never acted like that before. He was slacking in a lot of aspects of his life like the entire year before the shootings and even more the closer April 20th got. So why was he so animated during the library murders? And why was Eric so stoic? Dylan was so much crueler than Eric that day.

3. The interaction between Dylan and John. John asks Dylan “What are you doing?” to which Dylan very causally replies “Oh, just killing people.” Savage says later how creepy it was.

4. People always ask/discuss why E & D looked into classrooms/windows and didn’t even make an attempt to enter. But no one mentions/discusses the fact that they left many survivors unharmed in the library. I get they wanted their story told/heard, but in order to do that they only needed a handful of survivors.

true_crime wrote:

As for baffling behavior:
1. Having Eric asking John to identify himself hiding under the table. Didn’t John move backwards a bit when Eric aimed under the table? And there’s really no connection between Eric and John. It seems like John and Dylan were acquaintances and definitely not close friends.

2. Dylan whooping it up in the library, when he never acted like that before. He was slacking in a lot of aspects of his life like the entire year before the shootings and even more the closer April 20th got. So why was he so animated during the library murders? And why was Eric so stoic? Dylan was so much crueler than Eric that day.

3. The interaction between Dylan and John. John asks Dylan “What are you doing?” to which Dylan very causally replies “Oh, just killing people.” Savage says later how creepy it was.

4. People always ask/discuss why E & D looked into classrooms/windows and didn’t even make an attempt to enter. But no one mentions/discusses the fact that they left many survivors unharmed in the library. I get they wanted their story told/heard, but in order to do that they only needed a handful of survivors.

I think John may seem familiar to Eric so he went to check his identity just in case. Dylan probably mentioned him sometimes, and although Eric didn't necessarily know him personally, he might have known about him. I don't know.

About Dylan whooping it up, I think he was happy he is going to die soon and also had a lot of anger accumulated that had reached its peak that day. And maybe he even forced it, because with so much exaggeration he ensured that the humane side did not prevail in him, because then it would be harder to kill.

true_crime wrote:

2. Dylan whooping it up in the library, when he never acted like that before. He was slacking in a lot of aspects of his life like the entire year before the shootings and even more the closer April 20th got. So why was he so animated during the library murders?

That one's pretty easy to explain. The murders were the culmination of his anger and hate. He was animated and excited because he was happy to get back at the people he hated (that being pretty much everyone) and to get the opportunity to let loose for once.

true_crime wrote:

And why was Eric so stoic?

He really wasn't.

Eric was only calmer in comparison to Dylan. Viewing Eric's actual behavior it's clear he wasn't calm and collected about the killings at all, given that he was screaming at people, calling them pathetic, joined Dylan in calling Isiah Shoels "nigger", proudly boasted that the school was going to be blown up, etc. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] even notes that we don't even know which of them was cheering during the killing spree. Eric's stoicism was only relative to his partner's out of control behavior.  

true_crime wrote:

4. People always ask/discuss why E & D looked into classrooms/windows and didn’t even make an attempt to enter. But no one mentions/discusses the fact that they left many survivors unharmed in the library. I get they wanted their story told/heard, but in order to do that they only needed a handful of survivors.

Well, if you believe the orthodox version of events then it probably goes something like this:
1. They thought they killed more people then they actually did.
2. They wanted the lunchroom bombs to go off and kill the remaining library survivors.
3. Adrenaline wore off/boredom

If you think of things more the way I and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] conceive it then they quit killing in the library because they set the second bomb for 11:35 and the whole massacre in the library was elaborate bait for the police to rush in before it detonated (and by extension take out as many people as possible). The failure of the second bomb made further killing meaningless.

QuestionMark wrote:

If you think of things more the way I and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] conceive it then they quit killing in the library because they set the second bomb for 11:35 and the whole massacre in the library was elaborate bait for the police to rush in before it detonated (and by extension take out as many people as possible). The failure of the second bomb made further killing meaningless.

This is really interesting, never thought of it that way!

This means that their last minutes, just before the suicide, were filled with great disappointment. Oh well..

QuestionMark wrote:

Eric was only calmer in comparison to Dylan. Viewing Eric's actual behavior it's clear he wasn't calm and collected about the killings at all, given that he was screaming at people, calling them pathetic, joined Dylan in calling Isiah Shoels "nigger", proudly boasted that the school was going to be blown up, etc. Screamingophelia even notes that we don't even know which of them was cheering during the killing spree. Eric's stoicism was only relative to his partner's out of control behavior.

Yeah, I also forgot him saying “Peekaboo” and shooting Cassie in her face without even hesitating or thinking about it. Also how he taunted Bree Pasquale. The only reason why he didn’t shoot her was because of the shock of breaking his nose and it bleeding, as well as he got distracted by Dylan hollering his name. If I’m not mistaken, was that when they approached Isaiah? Also, in the Zero Hour documentary Dylan yells out “Reb! We got a n***** over here!” Can we confirm that at any point on April 20 Dylan referred to Eric as Reb?

Yeah, Eric was cruel and full of anger/hate that day, and you’re probably right: it seemed that he seemed more reserved than Dylan compared to how truly insane Dylan acted. They probably fed a lot off each other that day.

As far as the reason why they didn’t try breaking into classrooms even after making eye contact with students and adults, I’ve always maintained your same stance: that adrenaline wore off pretty quickly, and killing is much different up close and personal than just shooting fleeing students from a distance. Eric even mentions beforehand (in tapes I believe?) how he has to harden himself and cut off his emotions when April 20th comes. My point/question is that no one mentions the library survivors instead of the other classroom survivors.

Onyx wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

If you think of things more the way I and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] conceive it then they quit killing in the library because they set the second bomb for 11:35 and the whole massacre in the library was elaborate bait for the police to rush in before it detonated (and by extension take out as many people as possible). The failure of the second bomb made further killing meaningless.

This is really interesting, never thought of it that way!

This means that their last minutes, just before the suicide, were filled with great disappointment. Oh well..

That's often said, and perhaps likely on either interpretation. Not sure it follows with necessity though, or why it matters, but I guess people like to feel bad for them for various reasons. I think it's quite possible Eric was influenced to shoot himself in the mouth from the video game Postal. If so, one cannot ignore that Postal guy says "I regret nothing" before he does that. Eric was a gamer. It would not surprise me in the least if, say, he tried to look like Doom guy, or the bandolier he wore was because of Duke Nukem. Well, in Hitmen for Hire, he doesn't look like Doomguy, he doesn't look like Duke, he looks like Postal guy.  Then of course Dylan wanted to die anyway and it's quite possible the origin of the massacre is so he has an excuse to kill himself. They were infamous anyway after all, and they could see the media circus and such outside.  Not saying it's likely, but I think it's quite possible they had shrugged off any disappointment by then.

I've seen much ink spilled or bandwidth utilized or whatever the term is over wondering why they return to the library to kill themselves. A common idea is to watch their car bombs explode, and maybe. Still something of a mystery to me when those were supposed to go off, but one at least appears to be set for noon, though that can have other interpretations, and there's still the question about the other one. Assuming it was noon, that's plausible. However, the reason it gets talked about so much is that it has the effect of them dying among their victims, and much has been said about how that is what makes them seem like victims too. Maybe, I don't know.  Doesn't seem to work for others, say James Huberty or Adam Lanza.

But if I am correct in what I suspect, that they thought they and everybody else in the library were dying at 11:35, hence that's when they stop and leave, then returning to the library to commit suicide makes a good deal of sense, no? They had earlier committed themselves to dying there. That they use their guns just like they had with their victims, after expecting to die in an explosion in the library and probably on the cafeteria CCTV as well, may also provide a degree of the profundity grasped for by those who mention where (and now how) their victims die.

At least to me, that provides the satisfactory explanation for returning which is lacking in both "they just felt so bad about the whole thing" and "to watch the car bombs". And the same goes for so much more, like why they stop and leave, that they say the library is about to blow, that the cops stay outside, etc.

Onyx wrote:

This means that their last minutes, just before the suicide, were filled with great disappointment. Oh well..

Not to mention they actually had no contingency plan in the event the bombs failed-I don't think that possibility crossed their minds. Or at least Eric's for all of his planning. "Going in" was improv on their part.
I believe in part that had a lot to do with a lack of body count, add in the fog of war for a lack of a better term and adrenaline. Once that hype wore off with a lack of bomb explosions, it had to be a total let down.

Not that it mattered at the point when they decided they were done but I'd like to hope they had some remorse for what they did. I suspect once that build up of energy was spent, it was a complete let down and ultimately wasn't worth it.

The "this" Onyx was responding to is a scenario other than the one you just described. In that scenario, they do not start shooting "because the bombs failed", as the second bomb didn't fail until 11:35.

And going in was always part of the plan. No reason to think it wasn't. Dylan says they will charge through the school on the basement tapes, in the quotes about shaking like a leaf. They begin on the stairs and the first people shot are at the west entrance, so they can enter it.

[quote="cakeman"]

QuestionMark wrote:

I've seen much ink spilled or bandwidth utilized or whatever the term is over wondering why they return to the library to kill themselves. A common idea is to watch their car bombs explode, and maybe. Still something of a mystery to me when those were supposed to go off, but one at least appears to be set for noon, though that can have other interpretations, and there's still the question about the other one. Assuming it was noon, that's plausible. However, the reason it gets talked about so much is that it has the effect of them dying among their victims, and much has been said about how that is what makes them seem like victims too. Maybe, I don't know.  Doesn't seem to work for others, say James Huberty or Adam Lanza.

Meh. IMO the people who categorize E & D as victims believe it is because of what they endured- somewhat externally and a lot internally- before the massacre. There probably is some sympathy there for the physical closeness of them compared to their victims, but it is overwhelmingly the events beforehand that evokes compassion.

Also, just to reiterate, it wasn’t just a vantage point for witnessing the explosion of the bombs; the library also provided them a vantage point to shoot at the police. I think it’s a stretch for them to return to the library just for that reason though.

true_crime wrote:

cakeman wrote:

I've seen much ink spilled or bandwidth utilized or whatever the term is over wondering why they return to the library to kill themselves. A common idea is to watch their car bombs explode, and maybe. Still something of a mystery to me when those were supposed to go off, but one at least appears to be set for noon, though that can have other interpretations, and there's still the question about the other one. Assuming it was noon, that's plausible. However, the reason it gets talked about so much is that it has the effect of them dying among their victims, and much has been said about how that is what makes them seem like victims too. Maybe, I don't know.  Doesn't seem to work for others, say James Huberty or Adam Lanza.

Meh. IMO the people who categorize E & D as victims believe it is because of what they endured- somewhat externally and a lot internally- before the massacre. There probably is some sympathy there for the physical closeness of them compared to their victims, but it is overwhelmingly the events beforehand that evokes compassion.

Also, just to reiterate, it wasn’t just a vantage point for witnessing the explosion of the bombs; the library also provided them a vantage point to shoot at the police. I think it’s a stretch for them to return to the library just for that reason though.

For what it's worth, I was relaying what others had said - and not on this forum, for why they focused on that question "why did they return to the library to kill themselves." which seems a fair question. Watching the car bombs is possible, and was the competing explanation, but of course they could have still killed themselves elsewhere. I'm not sure we know the time those bombs were to go off, and on several accounts had things gone according to plan, they expected to be dead by the time the car bombs went off. Both of those may cast doubt on that.  

And yes, there was a last burst of fire at the police before the suicides. Eric had several shell casings from his carbine near where he died, apparently as a result of that. I don't think it follows from the fact that was done that it's the reason why they returned to the library.  It's possible it's not the only vantage point to shoot at police. Eric had shot at them from the west entrance before.

To be charitable to the view, I do agree that as a vantage point in general, the windows, whether to watch the car bombs, shoot at police, watch the police, watch the media, etc is a possible explanation.

It's possible there is sympathy due to the events beforehand; though it seems to me we don't know the events beforehand. There are many false stories out there about that day let alone beforehand. I think it's fair to say one option is that what went on beforehand is merely a conception and a result of something that day, say whether it what they said in the library, or that they died there with most of their victims, or simply the school shooting itself.

That's my being charitable to their view. I personally think "why did they start shooting" is the more interesting question, since it's where I begin to doubt the popular story. Just to say one more benefit of the theory I propose, is that it would give another possible reason: they die in the library because they had resigned themselves to dying in the library before, at 11:35.

They may have thought that the bombs in the cafeteria would eventually explode (before they could be removed) and thus destroy their dead bodies in the library.

If you read the 11k, they did try to get into some classrooms. They even got into a science room and turned the gas on trying to get it to explode. At one point they threw a molotov into a classroom and a teacher had to put it out.

Lizpuff wrote:

If you read the 11k, they did try to get into some classrooms.  They even got into a science room and turned the gas on trying to get it to explode.  At one point they threw a molotov into a classroom and a teacher had to put it out.  

It's quite possible it was just the doors were locked and they didn't know how to shoot the locks off, not some total disinterest in students. I believe Krabbe or someone recalls them tying pipe bombs to the door handles and lighting them hoping it would work. Indeed they start a fire, and fire into another room, just before going to shoot at the bombs. I suspect they were covering their backs from potential police. It's not clear whether it was a molotov. The report of all the explosives etc says only 2 molotov cocktails worked. If so, that means it's the one you see on the CCTV, and the one before their suicides, and presumably the fire was started with matches or lighters or model rocket igniters and towels or whatever.

Onyx wrote:

They may have thought that the bombs in the cafeteria would eventually explode (before they could be removed) and thus destroy their dead bodies in the library.

Maybe. I've certainly myself entertained the idea that they thought they'd go off anyway, but it seems to be quite unwarranted to suggest they'd go off for no reason when they were set for an earlier time. That seems to suggest the timers were pointless.

cakeman wrote:

And going in was always part of the plan.

I thought the plan was to pick off people as they ran out as a result of the bombs. Seeing what dare I say "little" they accomplished, it almost appears this wasn't going as planned. Now granted the adrenaline and fog of war
certainly played a factor in not doing as much killing however going in guns a blazin knowing you have active bombs ticking away would seem rather foolish. They weren't stupid and certainly weren't as prepared as they thought. Also, once the guns went off, students fled rendering the mass cas scenario worthless via cafeteria. If I am not mistaken he figured out when the most bodies at a given time would be in the cafeteria? So it would seem to act rash by shooting before the bombs.

Also I find it hard to believe the library would be a good secondary target to do killing vs other class rooms as they made their way through the school. They walked by and looked into the classrooms right? I know they had to have seen students. And yet really made a weak effort to breach any room.
And yes I do see your possibility they didn't know how to shoot out the locks. I would still argue that this was their grand finale, they made little effort to up the body count on mankind they loathed (or at least Eric did).

So instead they have a few students trapped in the library where they randomly start shooting/killing. No rhyme or reason. Evan Todd a jock spared? John Savage spared? And yet they kill Kyle Vasquez (amongst others)?

Nothing really went as planned even if they intended to go in which I don't totally disagree with. I poorly phrased that originally. I just don't believe that is how they were going to go in and seemingly not initially. No contingency/plan B if the bombs failed.


I admit it's been a while since I looked at their notes/journals anyways. I'm going from recall memory.

[quote="cakeman"]

cakeman wrote:

It's possible there is sympathy due to the events beforehand; though it seems to me we don't know the events beforehand. There are many false stories out there about that day let alone beforehand. I think it's fair to say one option is that what went on beforehand is merely a conception and a result of something that day, say whether it what they said in the library, or that they died there with most of their victims, or simply the school shooting itself.

It’s the mental agony/mental illness that both boys endured beforehand that the people in this group associate with this opinion. We know they suffered internally beforehand, especially Dylan.

Imperator wrote:

And going in was always part of the plan.

Yes, and we have no reason to believe otherwise.

I thought the plan was to pick off people as they ran out as a result of the bombs. Seeing what dare I say "little" they accomplished, it almost appears this wasn't going as planned. Now granted the adrenaline and fog of war certainly played a factor in not doing as much killing however going in guns a blazin knowing you have active bombs ticking away would seem rather foolish. They weren't stupid and certainly weren't as prepared as they thought. Also, once the guns went off, students fled rendering the mass cas scenario worthless via cafeteria. If I am not mistaken he figured out when the most bodies at a given time would be in the cafeteria? So it would seem to act rash by shooting before the bombs.

Eric observed and took meticulous notes on the amount of students in the cafeteria at what times. He picked that time due to the most students filled the cafeteria.

Also I find it hard to believe the library would be a good secondary target to do killing vs other class rooms as they made their way through the school. They walked by and looked into the classrooms right? I know they had to have seen students. And yet really made a weak effort to breach any room.

And yes I do see your possibility they didn't know how to shoot out the locks. I would still argue that this was their grand finale, they made little effort to up the body count on mankind they loathed (or at least Eric did).

So instead they have a few students trapped in the library where they randomly start shooting/killing. No rhyme or reason. Evan Todd a jock spared? John Savage spared? And yet they kill Kyle Vasquez (amongst others)?

I just now thought of this: How about the reason why they didn’t kill all of the library kids, besides perhaps having survivors around to tell their story, was because they still held onto the hope that the cafeteria bombs would explode. That way, they focused on classrooms since they put faith in the exploding of the bombs, which would seriously/criticality all of the library inhabitants.

Nothing really went as planned even if they intended to go in which I don't totally disagree with. I poorly phrased that originally. I just don't believe that is how they were going to go in and seemingly not initially. No contingency/plan B if the bombs failed.


I admit it's been a while since I looked at their notes/journals anyways. I'm going from recall memory.

That's true truecrime, there are the journals too of course. I think they would point out that, say, James Holmes has a journal, but is not seen as a victim.

Imperator wrote:

cakeman wrote:

And going in was always part of the plan.

I thought the plan was to pick off people as they ran out as a result of the bombs.

Not disagreeing with that, though that's an inference, not a fact, and the bombs would be doing most of the work. Regardless, their victims were not robots, they were not going to keep going into the parking lot to get shot. They would learn to turn around and escape up the cafeteria stairs. They were positioned perfectly to cut off their escape using the west entrance when this happened. The first four victims of gun shots (Patti and Brian were first, then Rachel and Richard) have in common that they were in their way by the west entrance. Oh, and it's what actually happens when Dylan sees them running up the cafeteria stairs, without any sense of panic, on the contrary a sense of excitement.

Since only Dylan descended the stairs, but both entered the west entrance, I suspect they figured most of the shooting deaths would happen there, and not the parking lot.  Doubly regardless, Dylan said they were going to charge through the school on the basement tapes. It's just false to say they didn't play to charge the school, and it's curious why people say it with such confidence.  I guess because of the whole "plan b", "they started shooting when the bombs failed" myth which is utterly contradicted by saying the library would explode and makes no sense anyway. It seems to me investigators (who can be wrong or lying anyway) say entering the library was improvised; not that entering the school was improvised.

Quote :

 So it would seem to act rash by shooting before the bombs

Not if it was just one minute before the first one  went off, which makes a lot more sense. Had you never heard about 'the bombs' failing, you would say the salient fact about 11:19 is that it's one minute before 11:20. What's way dumber than starting one minute early is planning for the cafeteria to be full of people, and then, when 'the bombs' fail, try to shoot as many as possible by...shooting outside? Just go into the cafeteria, the whole point of this time is that the cafeteria is full of victims. Unless he thought the few remaining would be brought outside by the first bomb. It's even alluded to that with the clocks they had you would set it at five minute intervals, on the numbers.

Quote :

Also I find it hard to believe the library would be a good secondary target to do killing vs other class rooms as they made their way through the school.  They walked by and looked into the classrooms right? I know they had to have seen students. And yet really made a weak effort to breach any room.

Classrooms were locked. Library was above the remaining bomb. You said yourself they allegedly wanted to shoot people fleeing from a bomb, and they had not yet got to do so. Several victims. Windows to see outside.  I don't know how weak their attempts were, and I think most people who relay this aren't going from e. g. the 11k but just from retelling the same popular myth, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Quote :

So instead they have a few students trapped in the library where they randomly start shooting/killing.  No rhyme or reason.  Evan Todd a jock spared? John Savage spared?  And yet they kill Kyle Vasquez (amongst others)?

Well, we gave a theory for that instead of the usual incredulous stare. The reason was to have cops rush in and die along with everybody else in the library. Evan Todd was spared after the second bomb failed and further killing was pointless. They didn't tell anybody they were "letting them live" before then; they said everybody was gonna die when the school went boom. John Savage was so one person was spared from the explosion and could tell the story NBK style. He wouldn't need to run if shooting randomly is all that happened. They could just not shoot him.

Quote :

Nothing really went as planned even if they intended to go in which I don't totally disagree with.  I poorly phrased that originally.  I just don't believe that is how they were going to go in and seemingly not initially.  No contingency/plan B if the bombs failed.

The whole point is that I submit the idea that "plan B" was engaged at 11:17 "because the bombs failed" is simply false.

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I guess because of the whole "plan b", "they started shooting when the bombs failed" myth which is utterly contradicted by saying the library would explode and makes no sense anyway. It seems to me investigators (who can be wrong or lying anyway) say entering the library was improvised; not that entering the school was improvised.

I believe this was 'hoping' at some point the library would explode (as they intended it to). As I suggested, nothing appears to have gone as planned right from the start. I do agree entering the building was in their plan but none of us seem to know exactly when that would occur. I think that is why we're discussing it and subsequently disagreeing how it went down. Either way, I find it to be an interesting debate.

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Not if it was just one minute before the first one went off, which makes a lot more sense.

To me it doesn't make sense, not even a minute before. Here's why in my opinion. If they went full charge at the building they could easily have made it to their destination well before the bombs exploded with the possibility of being victims of their own bombs and prematurely ending NBK (even though they would've had mass cas). That also assumes as they ran towards the building, there was no shooting. Shooting even a minute before the bombs would have been enough to time to trigger the students to flee. A minute is a long time sort of. I will contend if the bombs went off that still would have created a significant amount of casualties. Point being, it seems that Eric at least wanted as many dead in that cafeteria as possible.

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I don't know how weak their attempts were

I say weak attempts as I believe via 11K they were seen looking into class rooms. So if they could see in, they presumably saw students. Even a little window with cornered students could make it a fish in the barrel scenario. It seems like they didn't seize that moment ergo my labeling it a weak attempt. Why however is a better question? Discouraged by locks? maybe? Over stimulated resulting in confusion? maybe? Disappointment that NBK wasn't the fire and brimstone as planned sapping the motivation? maybe? But that's I what think happened or at the least contributed to it.

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Evan Todd was spared after the second bomb failed and further killing was pointless. They didn't tell anybody they were "letting them live" before then; they said everybody was gonna die when the school went boom.

I never said they told anyone they were letting them live, I was merely pointing out the randomness of who they spared. Val Schnurr was spared despite her admission in believing in God and E & D's loathing of God worshippers. Evan being spared also appears to illustrate that the motivation was gone. As you pointed out, the further killing was 'pointless'. I think it further illustrates the 'strange behavior', which in my opinion, was a complete let down for E & D.
If killing as much as possible was the ultimate goal, mainly for Eric, no one should have lived (maybe Savage by sheer luck for story telling).

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Doubly regardless, Dylan said they were going to charge through the school on the basement tapes.

Yes he did but never said when. You're right however, it's all inference.

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The whole point is that I submit the idea that "plan B" was engaged at 11:17 "because the bombs failed" is simply false

Perhaps but outwardly to me it appears to be a SNAFU from the start which attributes to the 'strange behavior during the shootings'.

Imperator wrote:

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I guess because of the whole "plan b", "they started shooting when the bombs failed" myth which is utterly contradicted by saying the library would explode and makes no sense anyway. It seems to me investigators (who can be wrong or lying anyway) say entering the library was improvised; not that entering the school was improvised.

I believe this was 'hoping' at some point the library would explode (as they intended it to).  As I suggested, nothing appears to have gone as planned right from the start.  I do agree entering the building was in their plan but none of us seem to know exactly when that would occur.  I think that is why we're discussing it and subsequently disagreeing how it went down.  Either way, I find it to be an interesting debate.

Respectfully, as for years I entertained the same idea: they weren't hoping. They were quite plain about it, and witnesses relay they enter the library with confidence. It's absurd to think they thought the bomb would just go off on its own, after it failed to go off from the timer. If they could expect it to just go off by itself, they wouldn't need a timer. They also stop shooting at 11:35 and leave at 11:36 and tell Evan he's going to live after 11:35 and everybody that they're gonna die before 11:35. The picture of the clock on the bomb (my avatar) is set for 35. There were two bombs. No need to have both go off at the same time. The diversions were also going to go off at different times. It's apparent to me what's going on.  They thought the second bomb, set for 11:35, would take out the library. There is no "the bombs" failed or "when the bombs went off". There's the first bomb, and the second bomb. When they are in the cafeteria on the CCTV, they don't even try to make the first bomb go off, just the second.

I didn't say Dylan said when. As far as I know, all he says is after the bombs are set. But he says they're going in. So, the oft repeated "They never planned on going in" is simply false.

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Not if it was just one minute before the first one  went off, which makes a lot more sense.

To me it doesn't make sense, not even a minute before.  Here's why in my opinion.  If they went full charge at the building they could easily have made it to their destination well before the bombs exploded with the possibility of being victims of their own bombs and prematurely ending NBK (even though they would've had mass cas).  That also assumes as they ran towards the building, there was no shooting.  Shooting even a minute before the bombs would have been enough to time to trigger the students to flee.  A minute is a long time sort of.  I will contend if the bombs went off that still would have created a significant amount of casualties.  Point being, it seems that Eric at least wanted as many dead in that cafeteria as possible.  

Doesn't feel like what's being said is being taken on board.  Don't know what you're trying to say here. I never said they would charge the building when they began shooting, and this post has little if anything to do with when they began shooting. It's true they wanted as many dead as possible and had planned for a cafeteria full of people - so then why not doubt the orthodox story which says when "the bombs failed," they tried to shoot everyone they could, yet start outside with a dozen people instead of in the cafeteria with hundreds? That they start shooting outside implies they thought the bomb was about to work in a minute, not failed two minutes before.

Some relate that the clocks make those bombs set on the numbers, at 5 minute intervals. Dylan in that same quote about charging the school, says something will be the most nerve-racking 15 minutes of his life. If the second bomb was 11:35, and the first bomb was 11:20, that would explain the 15 minutes, and way better than any other theory does.

To shoot people fleeing into the parking lot, they need to go down the stairs, as Dylan did.  To shoot people who go the other way, they need to enter the west entrance, as they both did. They start a minute early and clear i. e. attempt to murder those near the west entrance and on the stairs.  Nor does it need to be a full sixty seconds. 1 second before 11:20 is also 11:19.   It also doesn't make sense for Dylan to check on the bombs if the reason they began shooting was that they knew the bombs had failed. They already knew then. If the reason they begin shooting is precisely the opposite, that they thought the bombs would work, then it makes sense for Dylan to check on the bombs when he sees nothing has happened.

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Evan Todd was spared after the second bomb failed and further killing was pointless. They didn't tell anybody they were "letting them live" before then; they said everybody was gonna die when the school went boom.

I never said they told anyone they were letting them live, I was merely pointing out the randomness of who they spared.  Val Schnurr was spared despite her admission in believing in God and E & D's loathing of God worshippers.  Evan being spared also appears to illustrate that the motivation was gone.  As you pointed out, the further killing was 'pointless'.   I think it further illustrates the 'strange behavior', which in my opinion, was a complete let down for E & D.  
If killing as much as possible was the ultimate goal, mainly for Eric, no one should have lived (maybe Savage by sheer luck for story telling).

Well I'm telling you, Dylan said he was going to let the fat fuck live, after telling John to run because he was going to die in an explosion, and Eric telling Bree everybody was gonna die in an explosion, and both telling the library this several other times.  That's another clue that the bomb failed before talking to Evan, as if stopping shooting and leaving to mess with the bomb isn't enough. It wasn't random.  Val was shot and they thought the library was coming down and they had car bombs to possibly take out paramedics. She's not in the spared column. Also reloading when speaking to her, so there's the issue of ammo.

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It's absurd to think they thought the bomb would just go off on its own

I think you misunderstood my use of the word hope. Of course they wouldn't need timers if they went off on their own but the 'hope' part is me equating it to a hang fire when shooting a gun.

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Don't know what you're trying to say here. I never said they would charge the building when they began shooting

I was attempt to frame a possible scenario as in 'charge through the school'. It's not far fetched to believe they would charge towards the school. One scenario where they're not shooting trying to make it to the cafeteria before the bombs detonated to intercept the students fleeing and the other scenario where they start shooting all as they make they're way towards the cafeteria giving their position away before the bombs detonate.

Here is the quote from Dylan transcribed via basement tape

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Dylan: "We're hoping. We're hoping. I hope we kill 250 of you. It will be the most nerve-racking 15 minutes of my life, after the bombs are set and we're waiting to charge through the school. Seconds will be like hours. I can't wait. I'll be shaking like a leaf."

You take it one way as they're going in around the time the bombs go off and I see it as they're waiting for the bombs and then going in.

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Well I'm telling you, Dylan said he was going to let the fat fuck live

I understand that. I am trying to explain that the motivation was sapped. Savage left before the killing really started so telling the story was really pointless. Yep Val was hit alright but Dylan approached her, asked if she believed in God.. He spared her despite his own writings (basement tapes too) describing his loathing of God worshippers, especially certain females. The bombs failed, they knew it, probably from the very start. Why shoot anyone if the bombs killing all was the end game? 'letting the fat fuck live' just to die in a bomb explosion even though some of their greatest animosity was towards jocks? I'd think they'd take great pleasure in pumping him at least full of lead.
Yet they brutally gunned down Corey DePooter.
I will agree they ultimately wanted the school to blow up, they expected the bombs to go off, Eric left Bree alive because the he said the school's going to blow up anyways. I think he still held out hope the library would go down with the 11:35 bomb. But they had no sense of time as Dylan even noted seconds would feel like hours.

I believe the high wore off relatively quickly in my opinion which might explain why it was indeed random and a contribution to the strange behavior.

I think we agree they were going to go in. I think we just disagree at the moment they were going to go in. I do believe he [Eric] realized the first bomb failed but that's just me. Makes no sense to head towards the school until the 1st went off.

Interesting conversation! Thanks
As a side note - I think trying to decide why one was allowed to live and one not is pointless in a mass killing - once you're at that stage, all of society is to blame for allowing the certain group(s) (or actions) of people you hate, that drove you to that point. So by then all of humanity is scum and makes all the deaths equal and justifiable in their reasoning on why killing indiscriminately is fine.

An annoying conversation tbh.

Imperator wrote:

Why shoot anyone if the bombs killing all was the end game?

This is a good question but is explained above, to bait the cops in. The rest is like you're trying to say both my scenario and the orthodox scenario at the same time and is rendered incoherent.

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Here is the quote from Dylan transcribed via basement tape

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Dylan: "We're hoping. We're hoping. I hope we kill 250 of you. It will be the most nerve-racking 15 minutes of my life, after the bombs are set and we're waiting to charge through the school. Seconds will be like hours. I can't wait. I'll be shaking like a leaf."

You take it one way as they're going in around the time the bombs go off and I see it as they're waiting for the bombs and then going in.  

No...I'm taking it as he said they were going to charge through the school so that saying they weren't going to enter it is false. That's what you said. That's what a lot of people say. No shame, but it's wrong.

And again, on this interpretation the bombs aren't both set to the same time.

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The bombs failed, they knew it, probably from the very start.

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I will agree they ultimately wanted the school to blow up, they expected the bombs to go off, Eric left Bree alive because the he said the school's going to blow up anyways.  I think he still held out hope the library would go down with the 11:35 bomb.

These just seem contradictory.

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Yep Val was hit alright but Dylan approached her, asked if she believed in God.. He spared her despite his own writings (basement tapes too) describing his loathing of God worshippers, especially certain females.

Not really. She was shot, they expected her to die in an explosion, probably paramedics too, and he had already used enough ammo to require a reload. She was not 'spared'. She was 'spoken to'.

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'letting the fat fuck live' just to die in a bomb explosion

No...that he's letting him live means there will be no bomb explosion. When minutes earlier they said there would be. That's the whole point. If John wants to live, he needs to run out of there. If Evan wants to live, he can sit there. Why? What changed? The second bomb failed that's what changed.

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Even though some of their greatest animosity was towards jocks? I'd think they'd take great pleasure in pumping him at least full of lead.

Well they didn't.

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Yet they brutally gunned down Corey DePooter.

Before then. At 11:35. Then nobody shot after that. No other theory answers "Why then?"

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 But they had no sense of time as Dylan even noted seconds would feel like hours.  

He said that before the massacre and it doesn't apply to their watches.

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I believe the high wore off relatively quickly in my opinion which might explain why it was indeed random and a contribution to the strange behavior.

That it was "indeed random" is begging the question. That's what this whole scenario is doubting. "Just random" screams inadequacy.

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I think we agree they were going to go in.  I think we just disagree at the moment they were going to go in.

No, you said they improvised going in. I said they did not and always planned to go in, to cut off the escape after victims turn around and run up the cafeteria, after the first bomb. Then you pretend we agree or the disagreement was over something else.

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An annoying conversation tbh.

No one forced you to partake in it.  

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These just seem contradictory.

Then I think you need to read my comments a little slower.  

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No, you said they improvised going in

.
I also clarified what I meant as well as I posted hastily.  I think I have agreed with you on the going in part.  You seem hell bent on arguing no matter what I say so I feel this annoying conversation you were forced to partake in has long run it's course.  I feel no reason to responding to the rest of your comments as I have come to the realization you are the subject matter expert.  Sorry for wasting your time.   Good day

NickValentine wrote:

Does anybody get as baffled by some of the boys actions during the shooting

Not really to be honest. I agree with the person who said people often over-analyze things mentioned. None of their behaviour stands out to me as particularly odd. In the end, people just react with whatever comes to their mind first. Even, or especially, in a situation like that. It's not like they suddenly changed their whole nature ..."just because" ... they started shooting people. I could even believe Dylan wasn't full of irony when he said sorry to Graves.. Maybe it was just a mindless, intuitive thing to say. Could have been irony too though, it depends on how he said it.
But if we look at the victims for example, their reactions didn't really make much sense either. Like Todd saying "I don't want any trouble" or Savage asking what Dylan is doing. If you were able to think twice in that moment you'd probably choose to say something else.

And I also think a lot of their actions were simply them being on a power trip. When I started learning about the shooting I had a very different picture of the library situation. After watching that video that shows the school shortly after the shooting, I realised how visible all the students that were hiding under the tables were to them. In my imagination before they couldn't see too much. But they must have seen countless of them cowering there. Of course they must have felt "like gods" walking through the room and seeing all these kids shitting their pants because of them and knowing they could end every single one without much effort. (Sorry for the wording. That's just how I try to explain their seemingly "strange" decisions of letting people go or similar.)

One should be baffled if he accepts the usual narrative.

After a year of fantasizing or planning and with a diversion to buy time, 'the bombs' fail because they are definitely set for the same time for some reason, and so they come up with a whole new plan in just one minute. Despite having no Plan B, they engage Plan B. Instead of shooting from the parking lot after the bombs go off, where you'll get glassed in the face, shot in the back of the head when police arrive, and have no victims to shoot if they happen to run the other direction; they will shoot everyone they can. So they go to the stairs for no particular reason, when if they wanted the most victims, they would shoot in the cafeteria. After being forced into the school by the shootout or something, they head to the library to kill the jocks and pretend they have another bomb. They stop shooting when they wake up from the dream state at exactly 11:35 and become good boys again, so they leave to blow up the school and kill themselves, but not before showing the lockers they were pushed against who is boss.

Any one else sick of Cakeman's continuous arguementive condescending shit, regardless of thread?

Wilosophica wrote:

Any one else sick of Cakeman's continuous arguementive condescending shit, regardless of thread?

He has his own head cannon on what transpired that day and he'll insult anyone who pokes holes in his fantasy of literally being able to tell what Eric and Dylan thought and did that day. Just add him to your foes list and you won't have to read any of his posts anymore.

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He has his own head cannon on what transpired that day and he'll insult anyone who pokes holes in his fantasy of literally being able to tell what Eric and Dylan thought and did that day. Just add him to your foes list and you won't have to read any of his posts anymore.

I guess that's good as I felt I was the only one. Until I started seeing anyone posting any semblance of the accepted version of facts get lambasted by him for essentially being sheep.

They were waiting for the bombs to go off and then entering the school to clean up. Period. This is supported by both Eric and Dylan's writings/plans. The library wasn't their end game either. To think that E & D were waiting to die in a ball of fire via bombs under the library while tweaking their nipples is preposterous.

I won't block the dude, I can easily ignore. To be fair he has made a fair counter point just his abrasive 'I know what happened you don't you idiot' is painfully obnoxious.

I simply laid out the usual narrative, and you guys show there's no defense of it except to say I'm a doodoohead. That doesn't make one less confident that it's absurd. If just laying out the usual narrative seems condescending, what does that say about the usual narrative?

HanShotFirst wrote:

Wilosophica wrote:

Any one else sick of Cakeman's continuous arguementive condescending shit, regardless of thread?

He has his own head cannon on what transpired that day and he'll insult anyone who pokes holes in his fantasy of literally being able to tell what Eric and Dylan thought and did that day. Just add him to your foes list and you won't have to read any of his posts anymore.

Back here in the real world, I am the one who is insulted for having a theory that doesn't require mind reading simply because it isn't what you hear on the first day of research, which does require mind reading.

Consider:

QuestionMark wrote:

Well, if you believe the orthodox version of events then it probably goes something like this:
1. They thought they killed more people then they actually did.
2. They wanted the lunchroom bombs to go off and kill the remaining library survivors.
3. Adrenaline wore off/boredom

If you think of things more the way I and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] conceive it then they quit killing in the library because they set the second bomb for 11:35 and the whole massacre in the library was elaborate bait for the police to rush in before it detonated (and by extension take out as many people as possible). The failure of the second bomb made further killing meaningless.

1-3 is the one which requires mind reading. The 4th is simply inference. Is my avatar with the clock set to the 35th minute mind reading? Is them saying the library is going to experience a bomb mind reading? Is there anything like that for 1-3? No, it's just pretending to know the inner workings of their mind.

Imperator wrote:

his abrasive 'I know what happened you don't you idiot' is painfully obnoxious.  

You guys should really look in the mirror and realize there are people with whom I get along who don't act this way.  It's just butthurt over saying one conversation is annoying because I have to interpret somebody seemingly taking both sides of an issue and who doesn't admit when they're wrong. Nothing else I said was even slightly abrasive.

Imperator wrote:

They were waiting for the bombs to go off and then entering the school to clean up.  

Too bad anybody who reads can see that is my position and has been my position and was not yours, which was that they never planned on entering. That was literally the whole point of the conversation. This is why it was annoying.

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The library wasn't their end game either.  To think that E & D were waiting to die in a ball of fire via bombs under the library while tweaking their nipples is preposterous.

Shooting people described as tweaking their nipples is odd. It's so preposterous that they literally said it was going to happen and the 'game' literally ended in the library; and you will never explain what's preposterous about it. It's much more plausible than the usual narrative. Is English your first language?

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You guys should really look in the mirror

I don't need to look in the mirror, this has been your Modus Operandi for some time including the first engagement with you.  

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see that is my position and was not yours which was that they never planned on entering.

That is completely incorrect.  I clarified my position which you refused to accept.  Instead have continued to build your strawman argument with anyone who disagrees with you.  In fact you have done so this very thread.  Go back to your cornfields.  
I have given you credit where credit was due but instead have focused on being a gaping asshole.  You own that.  

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Shooting people described as tweaking their nipples is odd.

I agree that is odd however I never said that Mr. Scarecrow.  Eric wanted to either die by suicide (gun to the head) which he did or die by cop via suicide.  His own writings suggest that.  

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the 'game' literally ended in the library;

I never said it didn't end there, I simply made the case they NEVER planned for it to end there.  In fact I have stated emphatically that virtually the entire plan hinged on the bombs going off and they had to hastily improvise every thing from that point forward demonstrates 'the odd behavior' they displayed.  
Again I never said it didn't.  I said that wasn't the end game-to sit in a library, randomly killing, randomly sparing (regardless of why they spared) kids. They had zero intentions on really letting anyone live.  I've never suggested killing via gun wasn't in their plans, just not the main intent of their massacre.  Dylan said once the bombs go off, they were going in...

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Walk in, set bombs at 11:09, for 11:17

Leave, set car bombs.

Drive to Clemete Park. Gear up.

Get back by 11:15

Park cars. set car bombs for 11:18

get out, go to outside hill, wait.

When first bombs go off, attack.

have fun!

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will never explain what's preposterous about it

Actually I will.  Both Dylan and Eric had hand signals to designate death by self inflicted gun shots not to die in a ball of fire jerking each other off.  They weren't waiting to die in the library with the bombs.  

Eric desperately wanted those bombs to go off, if only one.  You even suggested they were worried SWAT would take them alive.  SWAT would never have intended to take them alive, no more than the cops would have.  SWAT isn't trained to shoot people in the legs and arms to neutralize threats.  You neutralize threats by killing them via center mass.  Too many movies glamorize military and cops/swat disarming people.  That is not how it works.  Suicide by cop was still a better option than dying by bombing as there was no guarantee that the bombs would have brought down the library.

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It's much more plausible than the usual narrative.

Because you say so?  Occam's razor.  pfft

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Is English your first language?

Yawn.  ad hominem.  Another half witted logical fallacy.  Good day sir.

The shooting was a failed bombing their original plan was bombing destroy the school. After failing maybe they had no idea what to do at that point? They had no other plan but kill ppl randomly like that's not how they imagined.
Im surprised too that Dylan was more yelling than Eric since Eric was supposed to be the "psycho".
Dylan enjoyed it more than Eric?
I'm taking no one's side just my thoughts

Eric killed more than Dylan. I think Eric was more dedicated to killing than Dylan. Just based on shots and amount killed

Imperator wrote:

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You guys should really look in the mirror

I don't need to look in the mirror, this has been your Modus Operandi for some time including the first engagement with you.  

I'm telling you, you do.

Maybe you should consider that when people have a heterodox opinion, they have heard the orthodox story before. Also all of this focus on Eric is very Cullen-esque.

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see that is my position and was not yours which was that they never planned on entering.

That is completely incorrect.  I clarified my position which you refused to accept.  Instead have continued to build your strawman argument with anyone who disagrees with you.  In fact you have done so this very thread.  Go back to your cornfields.  
I have given you credit where credit was due but instead have focused on being a gaping asshole.  You own that.  

Saying "I clarified" is not the same as clarifying. Your 'clarification' made no sense, and said something about plan B, which I was calling into question in the first place, i. e. it was begging the question.  It's also not a strawman, it's just you taking my own position and acting like it was yours rather than admit an error, which is annoying, and my not tolerating that is what has upset you and put this chip on your shoulder.

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Shooting people described as tweaking their nipples is odd.

I agree that is odd however I never said that Mr. Scarecrow.  Eric wanted to either die by suicide (gun to the head) which he did or die by cop via suicide.  His own writings suggest that.  

"Tweaking their nipples" is literally quoting your description for what they did in the library. Can't even admit what you said in the very last post.

Eric also said "The suicide plan" was a backpack full of napalm, so, no. What you're doing, right here, is mind reading. It's a fact that they said the library was going to explode. It's a fact that they stop shooting at 11:35. It's a fact that the clock on the bomb was set for the 35th minute. It's a fact that they return to the library to die. It's a fact that they told John to run - which only makes sense with a bomb, they could have just not shot him otherwise; and it's a fact that several witnesses say they told John to run or else be blown up. It's a fact that after 11:35 they tell Evan he is going to live when before then they said everybody is going to die.

Inference from those facts: They expected one of the cafeteria bombs to take out the library at 11:35.  That means with them in it. You counter that by reading Eric's mind.  It's also a fact Eric shot at the bomb - which had it exploded like a video game, would have meant their suicide; and that Dylan contemplated killing himself by tying a pipe bomb to his neck.

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the 'game' literally ended in the library;

I never said it didn't end there, I simply made the case they NEVER planned for it to end there.  In fact I have stated emphatically that virtually the entire plan hinged on the bombs going off and they had to hastily improvise every thing from that point forward demonstrates 'the odd behavior' they displayed.  

I quite clearly said investigators and I agree the library massacre was improvised. You're having an argument with yourself, not with me.  I didn't say it was planned, ever.  And again, "the plan hinged on the 'the bombs' going off". No, that "the bombs failed at 11:17" is what I'm calling into question. You are begging the question when you say that. Again, that's why it was annoying.

You said the endgame wasn't the library. I pointed out literally it was, that's where it ends. These are not complicated points.

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Again I never said it didn't.  I said that wasn't the end game-to sit in a library, randomly killing, randomly sparing (regardless of why they spared) kids. They had zero intentions on really letting anyone live.  I've never suggested killing via gun wasn't in their plans, just not the main intent of their massacre.  Dylan said once the bombs go off, they were going in...

Again, that point about Dylan is what I brought up to counter your claim that going in was improvised. That they were "randomly sparing" is just false and again begging the question.  You are assuming the very things being called into question.

"They had zero intentions on really letting anyone live. " Mind reading.

"I've never suggested killing via gun wasn't in their plans, just not the main intent of their massacre." This responds to nothing I've said. Everybody here knows there were bombs. I never said you said killing via gun wasn't in their plans. What the hell is the point of saying this?

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Walk in, set bombs at 11:09, for 11:17

Leave, set car bombs.

Drive to Clemete Park. Gear up.

Get back by 11:15

Park cars. set car bombs for 11:18

get out, go to outside hill, wait.

When first bombs go off, attack.

have fun!

This also responds to nothing I said. It'd be one of my favorite pieces of evidence actually, since "Go to outside hill wait" shows the narrative that they went to the stairs as an improvised "plan B" is false. Again, just, what? Like you're an AI rather than reading what is said.  

If you're trying to say it proves the bombs were set for 11:17, then it's the same question begging and a huge swing and miss; pathetic, day 1 research and naivete of the worst kind. The times were obviously very rough. For example, "11:09" meant "before 11:10", when class let out. Most agree they can be seen planting the bombs around 11, not at 11:09. In fact, your other choices for when aren't 11:09 either. Also, nobody says they had the car bombs set for 11:18, that obviously just means "after the cafeteria bombs."  

Also, despite buying the usual story, Cullen and others imply that you can't set those analog clocks for anything but 5 minutes intervals on the numbers, i. e. you can pick 11:15 or 11:20, but you can't pick 11:17.  Note also it says "first bombs".  He also has another very different set of notes, in Eric's planner, which says 11:16. So, it's literally impossible to go by his notes for this and very obviously just a rough outline, on top of it making no sense to start shooting outside after the bombs failed instead of when you think they are about go off.

Perfect evidence of what I mean about needing to look in the mirror. The smuggest, lamest attempt at ownage with the most basic of evidence as if anybody doesn't know about it while thinking I'm the one who isn't humble enough. No shit I'm aware of it. It's what I'm calling into question. So, citing it doesn't help you. That's why we have a term like begging the question.  It's "you don't believe in Mormonism? but the book of Mormon says..." levels of fail.

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will never explain what's preposterous about it

Actually I will.  Both Dylan and Eric had hand signals to designate death by self inflicted gun shots not to die in a ball of fire jerking each other off.  They weren't waiting to die in the library with the bombs.  

Not even close. Again, shooting people described as 'jerking each other off', which you will pretend you didn't say in the next post. That they had a hand signal for shooting themselves doesn't disprove anything and that you think it does shows how weak your theorizing is here. You said yourself they hoped to have cops kill them. Is that disproved by saying they had a hand signal to shoot themselves? No, of course not. It's just another contingency.  This is exactly as dumb as saying because they had hand signals in case they got separated, that they must have got separated that day even though all the evidence shows they didn't.

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Eric desperately wanted those bombs to go off, if only one.  You even suggested they were worried SWAT would take them alive.  SWAT would never have intended to take them alive, no more than the cops would have.  SWAT isn't trained to shoot people in the legs and arms to neutralize threats.  You neutralize threats by killing them via center mass.  Too many movies glamorize military and cops/swat disarming people.  That is not how it works.  Suicide by cop was still a better option than dying by bombing as there was no guarantee that the bombs would have brought down the library.

Mind reading again about what he 'desperately wanted'. Doesn't matter what you think about the bombs bringing down the library, it matters what they think. And they said it would.  Same for being taken alive. I think anybody committing such a crime would be worried about being taken alive, yes, and many have been. It's a common idea that this crime is to force Dylan's hand into committing suicide. Why it would do that is because they wouldn't want to be taken alive.

This idea obviously plays on his journal with its reluctance to get up the courage to take his own life. For that very reason, one can think both suicide by cop and suicide by bomb were preferred to putting a gun to his head. After all, they only shoot themselves after expecting the library to come down, trying to make the bombs explode, and quite possibly looking for cops when they roamed the halls. Also, they were teenagers, they didn't know much more than movies. People have pointed out Dylan shooting himself in the temple was a bad choice and born out of movies.

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It's much more plausible than the usual narrative.

Because you say so?  Occam's razor.  pfft

Not because I say so, because the facts say so, and yes Ockham's Razor and the law of non contradiction and very simple inferences also are on my side. I laid out the orthodox theory and its pitfalls above. You won't respond to that, you'll just "wow just wow" and hope that counts as a response.

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Is English your first language?

Yawn.  ad hominem.  Another half witted logical fallacy.  Good day sir.

A question is not an ad hominem. There are few things worse than a person who thinks logic is informal fallacy bingo instead of inference rules like a teenager in his 'new atheist' phase; squawking "strawman", "ad hominem" when somebody disagrees instead of challenging them on matters of fact. That's not logic, that's a meme understanding of logic. Logic is "If they said the library was soon going to explode when they're inside it at 11:30, then it's false that both bombs failed at 11:17".  Thinking you speak multiple languages is also the opposite of an insult. We kept talking past each other, and your avatar is of Augustus. It was possible you spoke, say, Italian.

Wow, just wow is correct indeed.

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I'm telling you, you do.

This is a ROFL moment. Sorry you think so highly of yourself . Cool story, you take a contrarian view and believe since you do that it is end of story.
I take solace in reading that I am not the only that sees your argumentative condescending prickery as obnoxious to say the least.
The rest of your post is like reading a puppy chasing it's tail in a pet shop. As one noted you'll insult anyone that pokes holes into your fantasy of what happened that day. No reason to continue the discussion. It's a lesson of futility for me.


Now you're right, a question isn't ad hominem. However when you're condescending to someone asking if English is their first language, it most certainly is. Contort it how you want. I rightly don't care. Your type infests the interwebs on any message board on any given day. It's hardly unique or special.

Lastly there is no inference rules. There is no teenage atheist phase as you coined it. There is just decency and decorum when debating topics. If your logic was undeniable then you wouldn't have to go to the extents of playing a mental gymnast on here. I feel bad that your ego is so fragile that you have to twist words and use insults to get people to see how "right you are". Look it borders the Dunning Kruger effect. When you're ready to return to the adult table and act like one, then I will certainly entertain a rational debate.

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No one is breaking any rules yet, but just a friendly reminder to keep things civil. People can disagree without taking pages to argue about it. Let us move on and continue the subject here as per the OP

Rebbie556 wrote:

The shooting was a failed bombing their original plan was bombing destroy the school. After failing maybe they had no idea what to do at that point? They had no other plan but kill ppl randomly like that's not how they imagined.
Im surprised too that Dylan was more yelling than Eric since Eric was  supposed to be the "psycho".
Dylan enjoyed it more than Eric?
I'm taking no one's side just my thoughts

It's certainly possible Dylan was closer to psychotic. As for killing more, I would not rule out that it was just because Eric had better weapons. He could shoot I think five from his shotgun before reloading. Dylan could only shoot 2, and everybody seems to agree a carbine is much better than a TEC-9.

Also, doubting whether Eric was a psychopath is also "head cannon" (lol for 'cannon') in that it's doubting what the police believe. So, a bit humorous how the cult of Eric and Dylan will allow you to doubt that, but not allow you to doubt what we've been told about their MO, which has many more problems than believing Eric was a psychopath. For the record, that is also something I doubt.

"After failing maybe they had no idea what to do at that point? They had no other plan but kill ppl randomly like that's not how they imagined. " Honestly, I appreciate your trying to engage with the issue. And respectfully, those are hardly your thoughts, that's what everybody is told to believe. For that reason, no shame in believing it, but when they actually allow scrutiny of it, it collapses very quickly.  In fact, Cullen's book and others say the ludicrous "They went to plan B. They had no plan B". I think they had no plan B, and among other reasons that's why they never went to plan B, because there wasn't one.

But because you seem to be genuine in your questioning unlike some others, I want to go over it again with you:

It is true the shooting was a failed bombing, but that doesn't mean the times they tell us when the bombs were set are when they were actually set. There are contradictions if you accept what they tell us, the most glaring of which is that they said during the library massacre, repeatedly, without any hint of lying and with several actions to corroborate it as what they actually thought, that the library was going to be taken out by one of the cafeteria bombs.  It logically follows from this that it's false that both cafeteria bombs failed at 11:17. They enter the library at 11:29.  Obviously, you can't have both bombs fail at 11:17, and then at least one live bomb at 11:30.  So, it's false that both bombs failed at 11:17.

If it is false that both bombs failed at 11:17, then it means the usual tale for the beginning of the shooting is false. If it is false that both bombs failed at 11:17, they can't begin shooting for that reason. Obviously, they can't move to the stairs as "plan B" from the parking lot "plan A" "when the bombs failed at 11:17" (why does that make one go to the stairs? never explained) if there was no "when the bombs failed at 11:17". This isn't surprising to me, for it never made much sense to have a diversion set up and plan and fantasize for a year, then improvise a new plan in literally a single minute.

Also, shooting from the parking lot is a dumb idea. Think of the deadly glass flying at them, think if people run the other way what can they do, think once cops show up they are facing the cafeteria and they can just shoot them in the back of the head. All of these are solved by the stairs. You're shielded from the bombs, you can go up or down the stairs depending on which way the cafeteria victims run, and if one descends the stairs (as Dylan did) to shoot at students, another can stay up (as Eric did) and cover his back from police (note Eric, not Dylan, shot at police that day).

No witness says they waited for the bombs in the parking lot. On the contrary, they say they went straight to the stairs. "Go to outside hill, wait" is what they did.  Tim Krabbe's book recognizes this much. He still buys the "plan B" narrative that "the bombs failed at 11:17", despite it being contradicted by what they said in the library. But for Krabbe, plan A was to shoot from the stairs with the bombs, and plan B was to shoot from the stairs without them. There is no shooting from the parking lot for Krabbe. This is because he focuses on witness statements, rather than writing the 10th book based on the previous 9 books.

But this shouldn't make much sense to you either. There's still the contradiction with the library; if only he focused similarly on that. Worse still, if they had given up on the bombs, why would they start shooting outside?  The whole point of that time being when the massacre was done was because the cafeteria would be at its fullest. If they had moved on from the bombs to shooting everybody they could, they would have hundreds of victims to shoot in the cafeteria. Instead they begin shooting outside with maybe two dozen people. Is not the best explanation that they expected those people in the cafeteria to be outside soon, thanks to the bomb?

Despite buying the narrative, Cullen and others seem to admit the clocks they used couldn't be set to "11:17" anyway. They say that's like a digital clock, not an analog clock, where you need it to be at 5 minute intervals, on the numerals. So, it's more likely the first bomb was set for 11:20. Indeed, if I told you anything happened at 11:19 without biasing you beforehand, would you think "that's 2 minutes before 11:17" or "that's 1 minute before 11:20?"  

Also find it telling where they shoot. The first victims are the west entrance, the next are the stairs. This too corroborates the function of the stairs as to go either way the victims in the cafeteria go. If they go up the cafeteria stairs, then you can enter the west entrance and cut off the escape (this is what they in fact did). If they flee out into the parking lot, you can go down the outside stairs. So, I think one minute before they expected the bombs to go off, they make sure the west entrance and stairs are clear so they can do what they are gonna do.  

I think this also makes sense given Dylan supposedly entered the cafeteria to check on the bomb once he descended the stairs and the cafeteria came into view. I don't see any reason for him to go in there on the orthodox story.  They already knew the bombs failed when they began shooting on the orthodox account, don't they? That's in fact why they begin shooting on the orthodox account. So, what is there to check?  However, if he thought they had gone off when he began to descend the stairs, then realized they hadn't when it came into view, and so checked in on them, that would make some sense. I grant there's other questions then, like the lack of noise from the bomb. However I think it's easier to write that off with the sound of gunfire and their adrenaline and so forth making him temporarily ignore it, than it is to say he checked on the bombs after they were already committed to them failing - so committed that they begin murdering, in fact.

So if the first bomb was 11:20, when was the 2nd bomb? Some time while they were in the library surely. I think we can figure it out.  Simply, I think it was 11:35. My avatar is the clock from the bomb they messed with on the CCTV and with which they caused a fire. You can see that it's set to the 35th minute.  That's also when they stop shooting. That's a huge fact, and one where the orthodox story really obviously fails and should be abandoned; when they start saying things like "they felt remorse and snapped out of it at that time specifically for no reason".  There's also Eric telling Bree everybody is going to die when they  blow up the school, and Dylan telling John to run out of there. Several witnesses say Dylan told John there was a bomb about to go off. But I don't even need that, just consider the fact that he told him to run. If at that point it was merely a shooting spree, they could have just not shot him. If everybody in the library is about to die from a bomb, he better run. That's what he was told to do.

Then Evan is told he is going to live. So, between the conversations with Bree and John, and the conservation with Evan, something changed. Why did John have to run to live, but not Evan?  We went from everybody dying to somebody living. Very obviously in my view, what happened in between is that the second bomb failed. Then they leave the library and try to make it explode.  As they were supposed to die in the library at 11:35, that's where they return to commit suicide a bit after noon. Maybe lighting the molotov cocktail was a Take 2 for dying in a wrecked library.

And what did Dylan say about the massacre? He said something would be "the most nerve-racking 15 minutes" of his life. Well, what's 15 minutes? 11:20 to 11:35 is fifteen minutes.

Note that none of this is mind reading. This is all just logical inference from the facts, trying to avoid contradictions and other implausibilities. "They went to the stairs when the bombs failed". "They start shooting because the bombs fail". "They stopped shooting because they snapped out of it". "Eric's nose  bleed made him go crazy" Really the majority of how you have to answer questions on the orthodox story, and why I submit it should be abandoned, is mind reading. It's like Johnnie Cochran ridiculing Marcia Clark for thinking OJ was innocent to ridicule this theory for mind reading. There's not even a little bit, and tons on the other side. Worse, if they wish to ridicule this theory, that's fine, but the least they could do is try to explain the same facts with another theory. But they don't. They just double down on the theory that can't explain them for social proof.

most of what cakeman says makes a lot of sense, he/she just seems over confident so it comes off a bit salesy

It's not the overconfidence that irks me, alot of it does make sense and I agree with majority of the points he raises.

It's the condescension, belittling and that flat out know-it-all attitude he carries with him into every thread.

It seems to me the know-it-all-attitude and overconfidence comes from those repeating the usual narrative. Most of the time, they don't even recognize it as an interpretation, but think of it as a fact, probably because it is repeated so often. I feel if I had such an attitude I wouldn't have come to be convinced otherwise, as so many here are not prepared to do. Don't feel I'm like anybody else to have most of their posts colored by their interpretation. That a theory can respond to several issues seems like a  strength, and it feels like I come out on top against the usual narrative for which story is heard the most. 

It seems to me most aren't prepared to accept it because they want a theory which says everything was random and capricious so they can say their heroes went crazy for a bit, despite obv planning it. Curiously for them, they seem in one sense even more sadistic on that interpretation. On mine, they don't shoot a single student without thinking they are backed up by a bomb soon to go off. Bombs are of course wicked and cruel and kill more, but it seems like they are not up close and personal like stabbing or shooting, and that may show some reluctance even to fire (aside from cops, I will admit, unless we perhaps also consider the car bombs), the bombs forcing their hand to fire in some respect. Doesn't seem like  there is any of that on the usual interpretation. It's we don't need bombs we'll just go in guns blazing (but up on the stairs, for some reason).