Van Incident: Eric's Version

I found this on the web, searching about that incident:

Dylan’s version: ‘“Almost at the same time, we both got the idea of breaking into this white van.”

Eric’s version: ”Dylan suggested we should steal some of the objects in the white van. At first I was very uncomfortable and questioning with the thought”

¿Is Eric lying or sometimes Dylan was the leader?

Eric finally confided to one of his Blackjack workers why he was grounded:

"He said: I wish I handnt done it", "he said their parents were really mad at them and they werent allowed to hang out together for a while because of it"

In both of those things, I found something pecualir. For the first time, Eric is showing regret and is even saying that the idea of the theft was of Dylan. I dont know if he was lying or wasnt his idea at all, but I found interesting how in these situations he seems regret about the incident. I think that Eric was a really good actor and a really good liar or this shows that he wasnt the leader at all and he could follow Dylan sometimes. Something that the theory of some people saying that he was definitely the leader is not true.

Thoughts about this??

Eric's a self-admitted liar who lied to keep his ass out of trouble, so I am not at all surprised with his version of events. The "I wish I hadn't done it" will always, always be "I wish I didn't get caught" to me. I have no doubt that the van break-in and subsequent diversion program had a huge impact on both boys, but at the core of the matter I think the only regrets for both were getting caught and losing a significant portion of trust with their parents because of it. I don't think Eric had the leadership in everything, though. I think that Dylan's account of events may be most accurate -- I've always seen that night as them talking/hanging out and getting bored and eventually doing something stupidly juvenile to pass the time. I think the idea for the break-in is reminiscent of the idea for NBK, as in that I don't think either one of them could've pinpointed exactly what got the idea started and how they ended up eventually doing it.

@dragonrampant: I have to agree you. Eric was such a liar. He didn´t feel regret for the van break, only for got caught and lost some freedom and trust...

I don't believe Eric either. Didn't he write about how America supposed to be the land of the free and calls the van owner an idiot or something? In "Zero hour" they contrasted this journal entry nicely with the letter he wrote to the owner.
Idk, maybe Dylan actually did suggest the idea of stealing these things, but I still don't like how Eric sold him out. Even if Dylan did come up with the idea, Eric didn't seem to be protesting for a long time.
Plus, if I remember correctly, the officer that caught them reported that it was Dylan who confessed first

Mj2beat wrote:

I found this on the web, searching about that incident:

Dylan’s version: ‘“Almost at the same time, we both got the idea of breaking into this white van.”

Eric’s version: ”Dylan suggested we should steal some of the objects in the white van. At first I was very uncomfortable and questioning with the thought”

I know I've read this before, is there any chance you could provide a reference for it? I had a quick look but it's taking too long to find, I assumed it was from the Diversion Files but could be wrong.

Van Break in:

Quote :

Harris continued stating they were walking near the parking area when they found the property neatly stacked in the grass.Initially during the interview, both Harris and Klebold said that they "found" the property near Deer Creek Canyon Road and Wadsworth. Klebold then told Deputy Walsh there was a white van parked at Deer Creek Canyon Road and Wadsworth Blvd. and they broke cut the passenger window and stole all the property that was discovered in their possession. After this admission by Klebold, Deputy Walsh asked no additional questions, and Harris and Klebold were taken into custody. Both Harris and Klebold were then transported to the Jefferson County South Sub Station for parental notification.

pg(10345)

Quote :

Harris stated while "messing around" Klebold looked inside a white van, that had been parked next to Harris's vehicle, and saw some property in it. Harris said that Klebold asked him, "Should we break into it and steal it?" Harris stated he initially told Klebold, "Hell no." Harris told Deputy Walsh another car drove into the parking and they got back in Harris's car. Harris stated they remained inside the vehicle for approximately five minutes and discussed if they were going to break into the vehicle or not. Harris stated that they agreed that they would (break into the vehicle). Harris
stated that he told Klebold "Yeah, we'll try it." Harris told Deputy Walsh that he stood on Deer Creek Canyon Road while Klebold put on a ski glove onto his left hand and tried to "punch out" the passenger window of the van. Harris said that Klebold tried this "three times" unsuccessfully. Harris stated he then put the right ski glove on his hand and attempted to "punch out" the glass one time. Harris told Deputy Walsh that they decided
to get a "rock" from the grassy area of the parking lot. Harris stated that Klebold found a round rock, approximately 10-12 inches in diameter. Harris stated that Klebold was finally able to break out the passenger window with the rock after striking the window approximately seven times. Harris said he again stood watch while Klebold was breaking out the window. Harris said after breaking out the window and the rock fell into the front
seat of the vehicle, Harris then cleared the class off of the window. Harris stated he re-entered his vehicle and waited while Kleboid removed the property inside the van. Harris stated Klebold put all the property from the vehicle into the back seat of his
vehicle, behind the passenger seat. Harris said he estimated that they were in the parking lot for approximately 30-40 minutes, and they were inside the van taking property for approximately 5 minutes. Harris stated once Klebold had taken the property and gotten
back into his car they decided to go to Deer Creek Canyon Park to decide what they were going to do with the property.

pg(10346)

Diversion Files
Eric: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Dylan: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Please Describe your version of the offence:
Eric: "Broke into a car and stole 1700$ worth of equipment, was caught 30 min later." pg(21)
Dylan: "Broke into a van, took stuff from it, drove away. (Friends car). Cops (? can't read Dylan's writing sorry) "we admitted to the crime pg(22)

Their parents describe the offence as: Eric: "Participated in break in of an auto, took property" pg(15)
Dylan's parents write a much longer description. Although they do mention after the boys "decided to see if they could get some free electrical equipment" and failed to break the glass on the van that "Eric got into his car and started the motor. Dylan picked up a rock and broke a window." They then describe Dylan grabbing things from the front seat. pg(14-15) This version seems to match up with the 11k version above.

In his Diversion File Dylan mentions the impact of the van break in on his family "My parents were devastated as well as i." pg(23) However in Far From the Tree his father mentions going for a walk with Dylan shortly after the incident and says "he felt so above it all, totally justified in what he'd done." He says he was startled by Dylan's fury about the arrest and "The morality of the whole thing escaped him." Sue says she also noticed this attitude and that he didn't connect to the wrongness of what he did. She talks of a conversation with Dylan about the event, when questioned how he could do something so morally wrong, Sue said he replied "Well, I didn't do it to another human being; it was to a company and that's what they have insurance for.
When i first read this it instantly made me think of Eric's "How come, If I’m free, I can’t deprive a stupid fucking dumbshit from his possessions if he leaves them sitting in the front seat of his fucking van out in plain sight and in the middle of fucking nowhere on a Frifuckingday night..." rant pg(26005) As mentioned in this thread Eric's journal entry does seem to greatly contrast what he writes in his apology letter. However I think it's important to keep in mind that Eric was required to write that apology letter as part of his Diversion and was basically given an outline and guidance on what to write. I do find the comparison between his school essay about the incident pg(26778 - 9) and his journal rant interesting. In his essay he mentions having time to think about what he did and that "Remorse put it lightly."
It pains me to say this but Dave Cullen suggests that in this essay Eric is painting himself as the victim and i actually agree. I interpret this essay as Eric really feeling sorry for himself, saying how he cried and "hurt like hell" and is now suffering these terrible consequences. But as thedragonrampant and em81 mentioned i also feel like Eric is more sorry for himself for getting caught as opposed to breaking into the van.

I've thought about this a great deal and i don't think either E/D felt remorse for the van break in or for the potential impact on the owner. I do feel like they felt a great deal of anger towards getting arrested and possibly embarrassment. I think they likely felt sympathy only for themselves, and possibly fueled each others feelings regarding the whole event. I can imagine Diversion was a bit of a pain in the backside to attend. In the past when I've read what they had to do it sounds so mundane and would have been the type of thing i think most teenagers would hate to do. Sometimes i wonder if they ever realized they only had themselves to blame for breaking int the van in the first place.

Eric=liar

Eric was a compulsive liar. Also, I can believe how he ratted out Dylan.

Nice friend... If I would be Dylan, I would be very angry.

People sometimes ask, "What would have happened if they had gotten caught planning/carrying out the shooting?"

Take the sentences above, insert the words "shooting up the school" for "breaking in the van," and you will see what Eric's response would've been.

Two questions:

What are you guys' thoughts on the fact that from Eric's account, that Dylan did all the work with the van break in; breaking the window, taking the stuff and all that.
Also, is this break in a sign of a downfall between the two? Trying to rebel perhaps? When this break in happened had the massacre planning been in process already?

It's my first time reading in detail what happened surrounding this incident. I do know initially that Eric tried to save his own ass when answering after which Dylan said it was both their ideas, I do know that part yes. This thread had been discussed a couple of years ago and it sounds like everyone's calling Eric a liar, and hatin' on him, but Dylan lied too.

shades wrote:

Two questions:

What are you guys' thoughts on the fact that from Eric's account, that Dylan did all the work with the van break in; breaking the window, taking the stuff and all that.
Also, is this break in a sign of a downfall between the two? Trying to rebel perhaps? When this break in happened had the massacre planning been in process already?

It's my first time reading in detail what happened surrounding this incident. I do know initially that Eric tried to save his own ass when answering after which Dylan said it was both their ideas, I do know that part yes. This thread had been discussed a couple of years ago and it sounds like everyone's calling Eric a liar, and hatin' on him, but Dylan lied too.

1st Q - nbk was always on their minds , im sure they discussed it by the the time the van incident occured . Now , once they got the guns , for them thats was like , now is the real deal .
For me the propane bombs was a last minute plan . It was obvious , because the plan for the propane bombs were defective and poorly executed .

2nd Q - rarely is the kid that dont make mistakes growing up , thats was the case for them . A simple mistake . They were caught red handed and by suprise by the cop that sneaked behind their car while they were checking their loot . Being caught like that is natural that the boys were nervous and didnt know what to say . So thats the reason behind their explanation being so faulty towards one another .

But did Dylan willingly do all the work during the break in or did Eric order him around just like during 4/20. Dylan broke the window and took all the stuff while Eric just stood by, after which upon initial report he threw D under the bus.

I assume they both were equally involved.

It might be true that it was originally Dylan who came with the idea, but Eric probably did not resist it as much as he said. So Dylan might have thought his version was true - that both of them were in the idea -, but Eric tried to emphasize that he "just" agreed to do it.

I have always thought that it would be impossible to decide which one of them the leader was. Maybe, there were no such roles between them: at one time, it might have been Dylan who ordered Eric to do things and so Eric did it - of course, not "obeying" but "agreeing" and "being willing to do so", but on another occasion, it was Eric who decided what they should do - and Dylan had, of course, the same attitude.

At this van incident, I have an impression that none of them was completely honest. Both of them told parts of the truth, but I would rather not believe either version. And I suppose they did not mention certain details of the incident.

(NB I showed their pictures to a friend of mine - who is not so interested in crime cases. I asked his opinion about these two guys, without telling him who they were. My friend said "Well, dunno - because you are showing me these pics, I assume they did something nasty. But I really don't know - maybe the one with the longer hair, he might have had done things like, let's say, breaking in cars, shoplifting or something...")

Moonshadow wrote:

I assume they both were equally involved.

It might be true that it was originally Dylan who came with the idea, but Eric probably did not resist it as much as he said. So Dylan might have thought his version was true - that both of them were in the idea -, but Eric tried to emphasize that he "just" agreed to do it.

I have always thought that it would be impossible to decide which one of them the leader was. Maybe, there were no such roles between them: at one time, it might have been Dylan who ordered Eric to do things and so Eric did it - of course, not "obeying" but "agreeing" and "being willing to do so", but on another occasion, it was Eric who decided what they should do - and Dylan had, of course, the same attitude.

At this van incident, I have an impression that none of them was completely honest. Both of them told parts of the truth, but I would rather not believe either version. And I suppose they did not mention certain details of the incident.

Very perfectly put Moonshadow. It's clearer for me to understand at least. Especially the part I bolded.

shades wrote:

Moonshadow wrote:

I assume they both were equally involved.

It might be true that it was originally Dylan who came with the idea, but Eric probably did not resist it as much as he said. So Dylan might have thought his version was true - that both of them were in the idea -, but Eric tried to emphasize that he "just" agreed to do it.

I have always thought that it would be impossible to decide which one of them the leader was. Maybe, there were no such roles between them: at one time, it might have been Dylan who ordered Eric to do things and so Eric did it - of course, not "obeying" but "agreeing" and "being willing to do so", but on another occasion, it was Eric who decided what they should do - and Dylan had, of course, the same attitude.

At this van incident, I have an impression that none of them was completely honest. Both of them told parts of the truth, but I would rather not believe either version. And I suppose they did not mention certain details of the incident.

Very perfectly put Moonshadow. It's clearer for me to understand at least. Especially the part I bolded.

Thankx [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - though we will never know if my assumptions are right.

I agree with Moon. I think Dylan said something like "what if we broke into that van", He may not even have been serious but Eric went along with it and then they were just doing it. So I think of the 2 I believe Eric more, but Neither is telling the full truth.

I don't think they were planning NBK at all then. I just don't. I think this was another tipping point for them. Another unfair thing. Now they may go to jail while others get off with no punishment.

Lizpuff wrote:

I don't think they were planning NBK at all then. I just don't. I think this was another tipping point for them. Another unfair thing. Now they may go to jail while others get off with no punishment.

It was a tipping point but it was also a mistake they made which ended up coming down on them so hard, like, they took it too deep and Dylan beat himself up over it. What if they hadn't done it? This proves they were in a bad way and not at a healthy state of mind cause otherwise they'd suck it up like rational young adults and move on.

But psh, who am I kidding. NBK was bound to happen either way...

shades wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I don't think they were planning NBK at all then. I just don't. I think this was another tipping point for them. Another unfair thing. Now they may go to jail while others get off with no punishment.

It was a tipping point but it was also a mistake they made which ended up coming down on them so hard, like, they took it too deep and Dylan beat himself up over it. What if they hadn't done it? This proves they were in a bad way and not at a healthy state of mind cause otherwise they'd suck it up like rational young adults and move on.

But psh, who am I kidding. NBK was bound to happen either way...

Since we don't know what Eric was really thinking prior to this I don't know if we can say when his angry thoughts started. Or started to change into plans. We know how he reacted after NBK. We know that prior to this incident Dylan as already sad depressed and suicidal.

If NBK went anything at all like this incident and Dylan was the one who thought it up first and spoke it first then this may not have anything to do with it. Or perhaps Dylan saw the anger that this caused Eric and decided this was the best time to bring up his homicidal thoughts. Another thing that makes people want to be a fly on the wall of that bedroom.

Lizpuff wrote:

Or perhaps Dylan saw the anger that this caused Eric and decided this was the best time to bring up his homicidal thoughts. Another thing that makes people want to be a fly on the wall of that bedroom.

Very good insight. I agree, Dylan may have been smart enough to use Eric's bad vulnerable way quick cause of the incident and convince him to make NBK happen already cause what the hell.

Girl I'd be more than a fly I'd be a lint on Eric's shirt or something so I'd follow his every move hearing every word bahahahaha.

I'd like to believe he was being as completely honest as he could with her. Pretty much at that point Dylan saw himself as a total loser and Eric was the only one that could ease it. They both needed each other regardless.

shades wrote:

Girl I'd be more than a fly I'd be a lint on Eric's shirt or something so I'd follow his every move hearing every word bahahahaha.

Now I really wish time traveling existed.

shades wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Or perhaps Dylan saw the anger that this caused Eric and decided this was the best time to bring up his homicidal thoughts. Another thing that makes people want to be a fly on the wall of that bedroom.

Very good insight. I agree, Dylan may have been smart enough to use Eric's bad vulnerable way quick cause of the incident and convince him to make NBK happen already cause what the hell.

Girl I'd be more than a fly I'd be a lint on Eric's shirt or something so I'd follow his every move hearing every word bahahahaha.

I have no doubts that Eric probably complained and bitched about this van thing forever to Dylan after it happened. Dylan probably was a sounding board and sat there absorbing it until Eric shut up and he said something like how great it would be to kill both cops and the people that got away with crap that they got caught for.

The more I study Dylan the more I realize how devious he really was.

Lizpuff wrote:

The more I study Dylan the more I realize how devious he really was.

I like to believe both were equally devious, manipulative, and deceitful.

aquillina wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

The more I study Dylan the more I realize how devious he really was.

I like to believe both were equally devious, manipulative, and deceitful.

That is true. I guess the very first time I heard of Columbine though there is the whole Cullen attitude of how Dylan was a follower and just depressed etc.

Then you delve into things and realize just how much stake he had in this and it can be a shock at first.

Do you think when Dylan was talking to his mom he was telling the partial truth?

aquillina wrote:

Do you think when Dylan was talking to his mom he was telling the partial truth?

Do you mean in general? Or about this specific incident?

If this specific incident, I think Dylan was not telling the truth. I think he wanted to cover his butt. I guess if they both started talking about it hypothetically and then it happened in real life it is all conjecture on whether or not he was telling the truth because yea then they could have "come up with it at the same time" sort of.

I think Dylan in general was somewhat truthful with Sue. But in the end he did keep a ton of stuff and important stuff mind you to himself

When I first got into Columbine and read the threads, I've always seen written and also believe that Eric was master manipulator. He even says so about himself in his journal being all pride about how he lies and he says things people wanna hear.

Honestly though? Dylan was the genius.

They were both devious, but I think Dylan had occasions where he cleverly acted and manipulated for his own means. Would it be so crazy to believe that Columbine may have happened because of Dylan? and he hit the exact right spot of Eric to have his partner in crime?

Lizpuff wrote:

I have no doubts that Eric probably complained and bitched about this van thing forever to Dylan after it happened. Dylan probably was a sounding board and sat there absorbing it until Eric shut up and he said something like how great it would be to kill both cops and the people that got away with crap that they got caught for.

I can literally picture this scenario in my head right now and it's probably the closest to reality back then.

sorry for the triple post

shades wrote:

When I first got into Columbine and read the threads, I've always seen written and also believe that Eric was master manipulator. He even says so about himself in his journal being all pride about how he lies and he says things people wanna hear.

Honestly though? Dylan was the genius.

Manipulating adults who are busy with work/their lives isn't really that difficult if you lack some morals.

He didn't manipulate Walsh, the girls who avoided him, the majority of the students or the jocks, Dan Lab who punched him, Brooks etc. He found a loophole through the Brady Bill to buy guns, he didn't go to a store where they sold guns to obviously 18+ people and he somehow managed to brainwash a seller to give him guns.

The people in diversion were probably easy to manipulate because they expected problem-kids who were in gangs, using dangerous drugs etc which created this illusion that they were two geniuses who tricked all these experienced adults.

Also a master manipulator doesn't kill himself (imo) because his success at deceiving people brings advantages (romantic, financial) that make life easier and bearable. My bottom-line opinion is that Eric's demise was his self-hatred.

PS: He said in his AOL profile that some call him handsome alluding to the fact that he's charming to women which seems to only have translated in his probable fantasies. He most likely (though doubtfully cause of Sasha on the kissing part) died a kissless virgin.

shades wrote:

Also, is this break in a sign of a downfall between the two? Trying to rebel perhaps? When this break in happened had the massacre planning been in process already?

I can't say whether they were actively planning yet but I believe they already had this in mind by the time of the van break-in. Two reasons for this.

1) Dylan mentions a killing spree in his journal entry from November 1997.
2) In the Basement Tapes, the boys make reference to shootings in Kentucky and Arkansas and say that they had the idea before either of these happened.
Arkansas was the Jonesboro shooting by Andrew Golden and Mitchell Johnson in March of 1998. However, Kentucky was the shooting by Michael Carneal in December of 1997. If we take the boys at their word (and we can corroborate this statement with the fact that Dylan, at the very least, was already thinking of something like this a month before Carneal's shooting) then we can see that this plan was already forming before the van break-in ever happened.

Eric Harris wrote:

Do not think we’re trying to copy anyone. We had the idea before the first one ever happened. Our plan is better, not like those fucks in Kentucky with camouflage and .22s.

Magnaphoria wrote:

Manipulating adults who are busy with work/their lives isn't really that difficult if you lack some morals.

He didn't manipulate Walsh, the girls who avoided him, the majority of the students or the jocks, Dan Lab who punched him, Brooks etc. He found a loophole through the Brady Bill to buy guns, he didn't go to a store where they sold guns to obviously 18+ people and he somehow managed to brainwash a seller to give him guns.

The people in diversion were probably easy to manipulate because they expected problem-kids who were in gangs, using dangerous drugs etc which created this illusion that they were two geniuses who tricked all these experienced adults.

Also a master manipulator doesn't kill himself (imo) because his success at deceiving people brings advantages (romantic, financial) that make life easier and bearable. My bottom-line opinion is that Eric's demise was his self-hatred.

PS: He said in his AOL profile that some call him handsome alluding to the fact that he's charming to women which seems to only have translated in his probable fantasies. He most likely (though doubtfully cause of Sasha on the kissing part) died a kissless virgin.

Very well put. This is perfect. What about Dylan? I think he cleverly worked his way around Eric to be his partner, and so many other things possibly.

sscc wrote:

I can't say whether they were actively planning yet but I believe they already had this in mind by the time of the van break-in. Two reasons for this.

1) Dylan mentions a killing spree in his journal entry from November 1997.
2) In the Basement Tapes, the boys make reference to shootings in Kentucky and Arkansas and say that they had the idea before either of these happened.
Arkansas was the Jonesboro shooting by Andrew Golden and Mitchell Johnson in March of 1998. However, Kentucky was the shooting by Michael Carneal in December of 1997. If we take the boys at their word (and we can corroborate this statement with the fact that Dylan, at the very least, was already thinking of something like this a month before Carneal's shooting) then we can see that this plan was already forming before the van break-in ever happened.

@Eric Harris wrote:
Do not think we’re trying to copy anyone. We had the idea before the first one ever happened. Our plan is better, not like those fucks in Kentucky with camouflage and .22s.

Nice work [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]!

Eric Harris wrote:

Do not think we’re trying to copy anyone. We had the idea before the first one ever happened. Our plan is better, not like those fucks in Kentucky with camouflage and .22s.

Did Eric really say that in the Basement Tapes?

aquillina wrote:

Eric Harris wrote:

Do not think we’re trying to copy anyone. We had the idea before the first one ever happened. Our plan is better, not like those fucks in Kentucky with camouflage and .22s.

Did Eric really say that in the Basement Tapes?

According to the transcript here, yes.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
A Columbine Site actually says that this part of the transcript referenced the "Oregon and Kentucky" shootings instead of Arkansas and Kentucky which would refer to Kip Kinkel in May of 1998.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
But they both seem to mention Kentucky with that specific quote.

The interesting thing is that he says "those fucks" but Kentucky was just one perpetrator. However, the Arkansas shooting was a duo just like Eric and Dylan. This is what their plan was according to Wikipedia:
As they arrived, Golden pulled the fire alarm while Johnson took the weapons to the woods outside of the school. Golden then ran back to the woods where Johnson had taken the weapons. When children and teachers filed out of the school, the two boys opened fire. The boys killed four female students and one teacher and wounded ten others. Golden and Johnson attempted to run back to the van and escape, but police captured them.
I wonder if Eric and Dylan were always planning to frighten people out of the school and pick them off or whether they were inspired by these two.

Now I'm getting off topic but I do wonder if these previous shootings were, in any way, an influence or encouragement for them. Eric took the time to mention them in the Basement Tapes nearly a year later so it was obviously something that stuck in his mind but maybe it was just that he felt like they missed out on being the first ones to do it so he had to make sure that people knew that he wasn't "copying" anyone.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I think that's a well-deserved thread of its own, cause that's a very good eye. got me thinking now. To reference two past shooting incidents such as that makes me wonder how long have they thought of a school attack or if their built up rage made them resort to that but they got reminded of it happening before so it was a sudden statement like Oh yeah it happened before didn't it, well fuck that attack we're gonna do ours better. (Which infact wasn't better but Columbine ended up insanely popular.)

shades wrote:

Very well put. This is perfect. What about Dylan? I think he cleverly worked his way around Eric to be his partner, and so many other things possibly.

I believe people think of Dylan as a better manipulator because it's a sort of romantic idea. The manipulator Eric was, in the end, manipulated by an even more cunning manipulator! Sounds like a great story. To me, Dylan didn't need to put much effort into Eric, probably no effort at all. You got a car slowly moving to the edge of a cliff and you put your finger on it to move a tiiiiiiiiiiny bit faster. The result is still the same.

Imo Eric was really fucked up beyond what we know thus I'm sure there are things that happened that we'll never find out. The soccer incident, at least by Sue's account, gave me the impression that he had serious emotional issues and they knew what to do about it because they've seen it many times before. Dylan didn't need to do much of anything to get what he wanted. I think he got his death effortlessly.

Now these are all just speculations so all of this could be only in my head but it's just what my instinct tells me.

shades wrote:

Which in fact wasn't better but Columbine ended up insanely popular.

And that's exactly what it did: Virginia Tech, Red Lake, Northern Illinois, Sandy Hook, I could go on forever.

Magnaphoria wrote:

I believe people think of Dylan as a better manipulator because it's a sort of romantic idea. The manipulator Eric was, in the end, manipulated by an even more cunning manipulator! Sounds like a great story. To me, Dylan didn't need to put much effort into Eric, probably no effort at all. You got a car slowly moving to the edge of a cliff and you put your finger on it to move a tiiiiiiiiiiny bit faster. The result is still the same.

Imo Eric was really fucked up beyond what we know thus I'm sure there are things that happened that we'll never find out. The soccer incident, at least by Sue's account, gave me the impression that he had serious emotional issues and they knew what to do about it because they've seen it many times before. Dylan didn't need to do much of anything to get what he wanted. I think he got his death effortlessly.

Now these are all just speculations so all of this could be only in my head but it's just what my instinct tells me.

I appreciate your point of view because it has me study greatly that regardless of which of the two may have been a better manipulator, the effort is almost redundant because like you said the car is already on the edge of the cliff so it doesn't take a genius to take advantage and move it slowly but faster. But it's also fucked up. We almost admire the friendship Eric and Dylan share to be loyal in crime but it's a toxic dynamic between the two, both used for their own means, and endgame is a tragedy.

aquillina wrote:

And that's exactly what it did: Virginia Tech, Red Lake, Northern Illinois, Sandy Hook, I could go on forever.

Eric and Dylan already won. You know why? Cause like Grant Whitus said, it's not about the body count or how extravagant the next massacre is anymore, AS LONG AS it keeps happening, Columbine will ALWAYS be referenced and all the fucktards out there is helping having the name live on and on. So nice job boys, unfortunately you got exactly what you wanted.

Well,  Eric wrote in his journal that he took pleasure in lying to others to save his own skin. He even lied to his parents about his alcohol stash in his bedroom after Brooks told his mother.

Anyways, back to the van incident. Dylan admitted to his mother that the idea to break into the van was a joint decision. In hindsight, I think it was rather ingenious of Eric to serve as the look-out for a while. That way, if the police arrive, as they did, Dylan would look guilty as charged. What is most interesting about this ordeal is the bullshit story Eric told Deputy Walsh about the electronics scattered around the park. Dylan supported him, but when Walsh told E/D that he was calling back-up, Eric looked to Dylan for relief. He ran out of lies, and because he knew he wasn't dealing with his parents and couldn't manipulate Walsh, he felt ashamed.
My belief is that Eric and Dylan got bored, looked into a deserted van out of curiosity, and saw a stash of electronics in the front seat. Both boys didn't think they would get caught, so Eric enlisted Dylan to break the van's window with a rock, as he was the tallest, and Dylan agreed because he wanted the computers. When Dylan couldn't break the window, Eric pitched in.
But Dylan wasn't a mere follower. I believe he wanted to break into the van just as much as Eric. Eric probably wanted to make sure that if was to commit this crime, Dylan better make sure that no one could see them (that's probably why he was reluctant at first.) That's because Eric is calculating, whereas Dylan acts on a whim, a fleeting fancy.

[quote="Lizpuff"]

Lizpuff wrote:

.  I guess the very first time I heard of Columbine though there is the whole Cullen attitude of how Dylan was a follower and just depressed etc..  

Although I don't completely agree with Cullen and believe Dylan had a mind of his own, I do think he needed Eric to snap him out of his passivity and self-loathing. True, he was like Eric; he knew how to act around adults and his friends, but we have to take Dylan's actions and writings into context. Whenever he is around Eric, Dylan's writing takes a darker tone. But when he writes about himself, he is full of anger and sadness. What are we to do with these two Dylans? We can see that Dylan already had some anger in his emotional toolbox, but that anger quickly dissolves into self-loathing. Although he does lash out at others, he quickly pulls out. Eric, who was already playing with fireworks and matches as young as 9, showed him what he could do with that anger.
I know Dylan wrote that sentence about NBK in November of 1997. But the Brown's police report shows that they alerted police to Eric's website in August of 1997(they would file four more throughout the years, even one on Eric threatening Aaron at the mall.) That website also lists the bombs that Eric and Dylan were building and testing. That is months before the November 1997 entry. Zack Heckler even mentions the fact that his mother, Veronica Heckler, did not want her son to hang around Eric because of his extensive bomb manufacturing in 1996. I seriously doubt Dylan had the idea before November '97. There is too much evidence to suggest otherwise.

[quote="shades"]

aquillina wrote:

So nice job boys, unfortunately you got exactly what you wanted.

Um, how so? They only killed 10 people, whereas the plan was to destroy the entire school, although propane bombs are the worst explosives to use to achieve that purpose because they are difficult to detonate.
Anyway, people who look to these guys for inspiration are already mentally disturbed, and the Columbine massacre gives them a rationale and a blueprint to achieve whatever suits their fancy.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] they created a legacy. Failed body count and bombs aside, I don't think it's my imagination that Eric implied wanting to cause a Long lasting impression and leave survivors around to tell their stories. The clever choice of leaving foreshadows and journal entries around paid off.

And don't forget the fangirls they've garnished over the years.

shades wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] The clever choice of leaving foreshadows and journal entries around paid off.

Yes, but I mostly blame the 24 hour news cycle for Columbine's notoriety. In 1999, the 24 hour news circuit was a new phenomenon, so we were bombarded by images of E/D and Columbine High maps on the TV screen. High body counts matter on Tv, and so that's what gets the most coverage. Columbine never became the Oklahoma City bombing, what Eric hoped to copy, but as far as school shootings, Columbine certainly is the most infamous, for reasons I've already mentioned.

aquillina wrote:

And don't forget the fangirls they've garnished over the years.

And that has always disgusted me. But I don't blame them. They are most likely troubled kids, much like Eric and Dylan.

jada887 wrote:

shades wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] The clever choice of leaving foreshadows and journal entries around paid off.

Yes, but I mostly blame the 24 hour news cycle for Columbine's notoriety. In 1999, the 24 hour news circuit was a new phenomenon, so we were bombarded by images of E/D and Columbine High maps on the TV screen. High body counts matter on Tv, and so that's what gets the most coverage. Columbine never became the Oklahoma City bombing, what Eric hoped to copy, but as far as school shootings, Columbine certainly is the most infamous, for reasons I've already mentioned.

Might be an area specific thing, but I tend to think Columbine is more widely known and talked about in my area than the OK bombing. Not that people don't know about it but it isn't talked about as much.

There is another thread here alluding to why people think this is a very famous event. There are a ton of reasons this massacre stands above the rest.

Guest wrote:

Eric's a self-admitted liar who lied to keep his ass out of trouble, so I am not at all surprised with his version of events. The "I wish I hadn't done it" will always, always be "I wish I didn't get caught" to me. I have no doubt that the van break-in and subsequent diversion program had a huge impact on both boys, but at the core of the matter I think the only regrets for both were getting caught and losing a significant portion of trust with their parents because of it. I don't think Eric had the leadership in everything, though. I think that Dylan's account of events may be most accurate -- I've always seen that night as them talking/hanging out and getting bored and eventually doing something stupidly juvenile to pass the time. I think the idea for the break-in is reminiscent of the idea for NBK, as in that I don't think either one of them could've pinpointed exactly what got the idea started and how they ended up eventually doing it.

Eric's lying was self preservation to hide later on his activities. There is no evidence pre van incident that Eric was a liar. I am a firm believer in what I have read regarding Eric that he was far more honest with who he was a person. For good or ill.

Lizpuff wrote:

jada887 wrote:

shades wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] The clever choice of leaving foreshadows and journal entries around paid off.

Yes, but I mostly blame the 24 hour news cycle for Columbine's notoriety. In 1999, the 24 hour news circuit was a new phenomenon, so we were bombarded by images of E/D and Columbine High maps on the TV screen. High body counts matter on Tv, and so that's what gets the most coverage. Columbine never became the Oklahoma City bombing, what Eric hoped to copy, but as far as school shootings, Columbine certainly is the most infamous, for reasons I've already mentioned.

Might be an area specific thing, but I tend to think Columbine is more widely known and talked about in my area than the OK bombing.  Not that people don't know about it but it isn't talked about as much.

There is another thread here alluding to why people think this is a very famous event.  There are a ton of reasons this massacre stands above the rest.

OKC bombing was motivated by political ideology and perception and although kids (very young ones) perished it's overshadowed by the premise of the motivation of the actual bombing.  Columbine was school culture involving "kids" gunning down "kids".  It raises eyebrows.  Whats wrong with our school culture??  


Nothing really.  It's the way it's been and will always be.  Being a parent of kids in Middle school, bullying to one extent still exists.  It's what you you do as a parent to teach your kids on how to handle situations.  

Kids are mean, hell adults are mean.  Humans are mean.  Shoot I am mean.  That is reality.  

I teach my kids there is life outside of school.  Bullying is a weak trait.  I don't have the answers but hope it sticks in their head.

Quote :

OKC bombing was motivated by political ideology and perception

I think Eric might have wanted to emulate the scale and notoriety of the Oklahoma City bombing but not Timothy McVeigh's motives.

Quote :

Columbine was school culture involving "kids" gunning down "kids".  It raises eyebrows.

Absolutely. There's every indication that Columbine was an awful school. I can't imagine administrators allowing school jocks to set someone's hair on fire, or punch less popular kids in the hallways and classrooms without taking serious disciplinary actions on the culprits. I have always believed Columbine'stoxic bullying culture gave the two boys a strong justification for their violent actions. Think about it this way: everyone who attended Columbine and witnessed its toxic culture wasn't surprised by the attack, only that it hadn't happened sooner.