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 Fate of their souls ?

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Abigail Lee

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PostSubject: Fate of their souls ?   Wed May 27, 2015 3:40 pm

Question that torments me this days is :Where did the souls of Eric &Dylan went ?
I know they were not very religious but....i hope they are not in hell . I hope they went to Purgatory one can get out of there, but there is no return from hell.
What are your thoughts on this ?
I know it is stupid but ..i had to ask this and i do understand that there are different views on the religion some people do not believe in God and i respect that i just wanted to ask this from my Christian view ,i hope that is ok . And would you like / do you, pray for them ,i do pray for them all so if you are willing to join me i would be glad .Thank you.
Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad confused

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed May 27, 2015 4:09 pm

I'm not a very religious person but if there IS a hell you can bet they're there. Sure the boys were troubled and mentally ill, but that doesn't excuse the murder of 12 teenagers and 1 adult. I'm not sure i really understand the point to this thread though. Not only is every response going to be speculative, but these types of discussions tend to end badly in my experience with the Internet lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed May 27, 2015 5:25 pm

Personally, I don't believe in an afterlife (heaven , hell, purgatory). My view on death is kind of depressing. So I'm sure no one will agree with me. However, I believe when we die that we return to the way things were before we were born. A state of nothingness.

If there is an afterlife, I don't really know what it would be like. I've always thought that the deeds you commit in your life wouldn't really affect the next life you have, since they are two separate existences. But that's jut me.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed May 27, 2015 5:33 pm

I believe they lost their consciousness, Eric instantly and painlessly while Dylan suffered a lot of pain for about half a minute, then faded out as well. And "that's all folks!" so to speak.

I'm not very spiritual as you may see.

Now let me, for the sake of argument, assume that there is a life after death. It makes for a better story at least.


In such case, Eric and Dylan would both ind themselves in the second firery hell, known as "the burning hell", as this is where all people who commited both murder and theft go (those that killed random people that is, cause if you killed someone very special you can end up far worse than the reviving hell).

So what happens in this hell? Well, let me quote a professional:
Quote :
Jounetsu Jigoku, the burning hell, contains killers, robbers, perverts, drunkards, liars, and those who have held thoughts or beliefs contrary to Buddhist teachings. Here, the tortured souls are beaten with red-hot iron clubs. They have hot skewers thrust through their mouths and out their anuses, and are broiled over a great sea of fire. A lifespan in this hell lasts 16,000 years, one day of which equals 16,000 years in Takejizai-ten, where one day is equivalent to 1,600 years on Earth. A damned soul here spends the equivalent of 54.5 quadrillion Earth-years.

That is the optimistic variant, becuase if they commited acts of lewdness in addition to theft and murder, they would end up even worse. Seeing as both were virgins, I doubt that this is the case.

But not all is doom and gloom, cause they have up to 6 attempts at parole. 5 of them are already in the past (they occur within the first 12 earth years after death). So they were either already paroled, or are in hell suffering and still await the final parole date which will be in April 2031.

I'm no bodhisattva, so I do no feel in any way qualified to say if they pass any of the parole hearings or not. That's not for me to decide.

Waht I do know is that if they flunk that last year 2031 parole hearing, then they will continue to suffer in that hell for the remainder of the 54.5 quadrillion years. Then they will be reborn into one of the five other non-hell realms. Not all of the 5 realms are all that nice though. They could be reborn as an animal or as a hungry ghost for exmaple.

The way of the karmic wheel can be a long and difficult one.

Good luck Erc and Dylan. Wherever you may be.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed May 27, 2015 5:50 pm

Sabratha wrote:
I believe they lost their consciousness, Eric instantly and painlessly while Dylan suffered a lot of pain for about half a minute, then faded out as well. And "that's all folks!" so to speak.

Why is it you think Dylan suffered in his last moments? Wouldn't he have been unconscious even if he was capable of some involuntary movements?
Do you think he was able to think while this was occurring?

I've always wondered what it was like for him, squirming on the ground slowly dying.
I imagine if he was able to have any last thoughts it would be something along the lines of:

"Perfect, I can't even kill myself right"

...At least that what I would be thinking.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed May 27, 2015 6:56 pm

browneyes11 wrote:
Sabratha wrote:
I believe they lost their consciousness, Eric instantly and painlessly while Dylan suffered a lot of pain for about half a minute, then faded out as well. And "that's all folks!" so to speak.

Why is it you think Dylan suffered in his last moments? Wouldn't he have been unconscious even if he was capable of some involuntary movements?
Do you think he was able to think while this was occurring?

I've always wondered what it was like for him, squirming on the ground slowly dying.
I imagine if he was able to have any last thoughts it would be something along the lines of:

"Perfect, I can't even kill myself right"

...At least that what I would be thinking.

There was a very long forum discussion about this on the old forums, probably in 2008 or 2009. We had some medical student chipping in then. I'm no doctor, but what I do remember is that the consensus at the time was that Dylan did not die instantly and it probably took him up to a few minutes to entirely expire form the gunshot wound. I can't be certain how long he was conscious, but I think its a safe bet to assume he was conscious and in great pain at least for some short time after he shot himself.

Eric's wound was so massive that eveyone agrees he died instantly, much like a victim of a point-blank grenade. He literaly did not have the time to feel pain.

Either way, they both died before the paramedics arrived and even if Dylan suffered, it was not for very long. The question fo them suffering for eternity or so in hell... now that's different.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed May 27, 2015 10:21 pm

I believe they are in Heaven. People will disagree with me but I don't believe that God would send a 17 and 18 year old to Hell.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Thu May 28, 2015 12:39 am

I've never heard of the belief that you can be paroled from hell, that is an interesting idea. But how could you be sane enough to be paroled after all that time in hell? And what happens if you are paroled? Where do you go, and how are you capable of functioning after all the torture? Do you forget it, or maybe in hell you are forced to remain sane even through the torture?
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Thu May 28, 2015 4:40 am

Sadly I believe that they went to hell, unless for some reason God forgave them of their actions which I wouldn't know. Being a Christian I believe that in order to not go to hell you have to have salvation, and as far as I am aware they didn't. I don't think there is much point in praying for the dead because they have already passed on and gone from the realms of this universe, But in saying that I do find myself praying for the families at times because they still must be hurting about the whole events. Of course I hope that something changed and they are now in a better place than here but who would know.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Thu May 28, 2015 11:31 am

ellie z wrote:
I've never heard of the belief that you can be paroled from hell, that is an interesting idea. But how could you be sane enough to be paroled after all that time in hell? And what happens if you are paroled? Where do you go, and how are you capable of functioning after all the torture? Do you forget it, or maybe in hell you are forced to remain sane even through the torture?

No, one can not get out of Hell, according to Christian belief.Once you are in Hell there is no return but if one ends up in Purgatory ( it is a different state /place, it is not Hell ) you can, and wiil eventually come out of there as after the Judgement Day , Purgatory will no longer exist, and all the souls who are now in it will go to Heaven ,and souls in Purgatory can not fall into Hell, they can only go to Heaven, as they are saved but they need to endure cleaning doe to the sins they have committed in their life.
Souls in Purgatory are happy to suffer for they are suffering for God ,the thing that cleans them is Gods love not his anger and they are aware of the fact that after spending time in Purgatory they will go to Heaven and that brings them joy .

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Thu May 28, 2015 11:42 am

ellie z wrote:
I've never heard of the belief that you can be paroled from hell, that is an interesting idea. But how could you be sane enough to be paroled after all that time in hell? And what happens if you are paroled? Where do you go, and how are you capable of functioning after all the torture? Do you forget it, or maybe in hell you are forced to remain sane even through the torture?

Well, first of all I used the term "parole" as it seemed to be the best english equivalent to describe it in an unambiguous way. However a more traditional rnaslation would be not "parole hearing" but rather "trial" or "judgement". The blief in these "parole hearings" is very old and traditional probably dating to around the 4th century BCE.

The details of the parole hearings vary between specific traditions for example:
- The chinese tradition usually says that there are only 3 parole eharings: 100 days after death, a year atfer death and 2 years after death.
-The japanese traditions including both Shingon and Tendai, state that there are 6 parole hearings.In addition to theones from the chinese traditions, there is also a parole hearing 6 years after death, 12 years after death and 32 years after death.

Why the parole hearings? The basic reply would be: compassion. Or mercy if you want to call it taht. Compassion is part of the karmic circle itself in buddhism.

Oh and you will not be "sane" when you are in hell, but you will forget everything when you move on to a next realm of being. By the traditional Tendai account fo instance, each of us most likely already was in hell a few times before, but the vast majority of us (thankfully) do not remember it. Its entirely possible taht you already "served a few terms" of heaven and a "few terms" of hell in your past lives. We were probably all hungy ghosts (gaki/pretas) and animals at some point too.

The traditional acoutns do not of couse use prison slang of "serving a term" in heaven, but this is relaly what it boils down to. The karmic cycle is a prison in every sense of the word.

Abigail Lee wrote:
No, one can not get out of Hell, according to Christian belief.

True that, but my post was not about christian beliefs at all. Just wanted to make that point clear.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Thu May 28, 2015 11:44 am

Unfortunately I tend to think the atheist route of afterlife, which is an endless, vast blanket of darkness, the very same in which we experience before we are born (which is way more than what Eric and Dylan deserve). Though I remember reading What Dreams May Come and I hold out hope that if there is an afterlife, that it is like how it plays out in that book.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Thu May 28, 2015 11:45 am

Sabratha, That sounds interesting Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Thu May 28, 2015 12:02 pm

Abigail Lee wrote:
Sabratha, That sounds interesting Smile

Glad to be of service... I think.

Never thought I'd be acting as a tour guide for Naraka, but I guess you take what you get. ;)

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Thu May 28, 2015 12:50 pm

browneyes11 wrote:
However, I believe when we die that we return to the way things were before we were born. A state of nothingness.

Juizy Jazzy wrote:
Unfortunately I tend to think the atheist route of afterlife, which is an endless, vast blanket of darkness, the very same in which we experience before we are born (which is way more than what Eric and Dylan deserve).

Interesting. This comes very close to my own theory. Ever since I was very young, I have been fascinated by and have had a keen interest in many aspects of reincarnation. It sounds very logical to me. At least more than the concept of a heaven or hell. Weird thing, however, is that I don't necessarily believe in a soul. I often ask myself, where was I before being born?

Life can come into existence out of nothingness. Who says that it can't happen again? Maybe it's a never-ending cycle. Random or not...
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Thu May 28, 2015 2:17 pm

MegaloX wrote:
Weird thing, however, is that I don't necessarily believe in a soul.

I've often wondered too, what is a soul exactly? And if we (humans) have a soul, doesn't every living organism have a soul?
I was raise to be a "fire and brim stone" Southern Baptist. But as I grew older I struggled with religion because they could never answer my questions
Such as, "Do animals have souls?" "Will I see my dead pets in heaven?" "If God is all knowing and all forgiving, then why is there a hell?""

Personally, I don't understand the concept of having a soul. I guess it's comforting to believe that there's a small part of us that will live on after death.

It is strange that Dylan believed in an afterlife, yet wasn't the least bit concerned about hell. I think it's safe to say E/D didn't believe in heaven or hell.
I assume that Dylan hated his life to such a degree that it didn't matter what his afterlife would be like. He just wanted to die.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Thu May 28, 2015 2:48 pm

browneyes11 wrote:
I've often wondered too, what is a soul exactly? And if we (humans) have a soul, doesn't every living organism have a soul?

Buddhism says each one has a soul, down to the lowly algae and bacteria.
Ever wanted to be reborn as a cute roach? Entirely possible.

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browneyes11 wrote:
Personally, I don't understand the concept of having a soul.
Technilaly, here isn't a soul per se. Anatta - this means there is no soul in the sense that there is "no constant self", no immortal, immutable self-entity. What is there is a "non-material box" that keps your karma. But even that changes, you gain good karma and bad karma. Bad karma gets erased through suffering (that's what hells are for to be honest). Good karma gets erased by pleasant activities (that's what heavens are for). Everything changes, your mind beliefs and moeories go "poof" gone when you die and are reborn.

browneyes11 wrote:
If God is all knowing and all forgiving, then why is there a hell?
Buddhist answer: Gods (beings who live in heavenly realms) are subject to the same karmic laws as you are. Be good enough and you are reborn as a god and get to do pleasant stuff in hevaen. But remember, pleasant stuff uses up your good karma!

So if you are a god and use up your good karma in heaven then you die and get reborn into one of the lower realms. Perhaps as a human or an animal? Techniclaly you can even go straght to hell from beign a god.
Compassion is what prevents the whole system from everyone just dropping down to hell and spending aeons there in compaison to short lives here on earth.

But compassion alone will not get you "out of the system". How to "beat the system" is another long topic alltogeather.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Thu May 28, 2015 2:54 pm

Wow very interesting stuff. I'll have to look into Buddhism

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 12:03 am

I believe in the Christian way too, but Eric and Dylan were just kids.
If God would send them to Hell, would he send a 15 and 16 year old? Or a 13 and 14 year old?
That would mean that if some of the victims who died that day weren't saved, they would be in Hell too.
I believe one hundred percent that everything in the Bible is true. But I also think that God is merciful and in some cases , people who the world believes are in Hell, won't end up being there.

Falcolus wrote:
Sadly I believe that they went to hell, unless for some reason God forgave them of their actions which I wouldn't know. Being a Christian I believe that in order to not go to hell you have to have salvation, and as far as I am aware they didn't. I don't think there is much point in praying for the dead because they have already passed on and gone from the realms of this universe, But in saying that I do find myself praying for the families at times because they still must be hurting about the whole events. Of course I hope that something changed and they are now in a better place than here but who would know.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 12:11 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
I believe in the Christian way too, but Eric and Dylan were just kids.
If God would send them to Hell, would he send a 15 and 16 year old? Or a 13 and 14 year old?
That would mean that if some of the victims who died that day weren't saved, they would be in Hell too.
I believe one hundred percent that everything in the Bible is true. But I also think that God is merciful and in some cases , people who the world believes are in Hell, won't end up being there.

Falcolus wrote:
Sadly I believe that they went to hell, unless for some reason God forgave them of their actions which I wouldn't know. Being a Christian I believe that in order to not go to hell you have to have salvation, and as far as I am aware they didn't. I don't think there is much point in praying for the dead because they have already passed on and gone from the realms of this universe, But in saying that I do find myself praying for the families at times because they still must be hurting about the whole events. Of course I hope that something changed and they are now in a better place than here but who would know.

Very good points, I am not a scholar in that kind of thing so I wouldn't know. But yes God is merciful, so maybe they didn't end up there? I suppose we will find out one day Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 12:12 am

I'm a Christian, but I don't think God would send a mentally ill teenager to Hell.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 12:12 am

I don't mean to sound bitchy or start any trouble but how can one
human being say what another human being deserves in eternity?
We are all fallen, flawed and in the Christian vernacular, sinful.
None of us are in charge of another's eternal fate. Only God is. And God keeps his own council.
I know this is the most common attitude with people, but I have just never been able to understand it. I have tried to understand it, but failed.

Juicy Jazzy wrote:
Unfortunately I tend to think the atheist route of afterlife, which is an endless, vast blanket of darkness, the very same in which we experience before we are born (which is way more than what Eric and Dylan deserve). Though I remember reading What Dreams May Come and I hold out hope that if there is an afterlife, that it is like how it plays out in that book.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 12:16 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
I don't mean to sound bitchy or start any trouble but how can one
human being say what another human being deserves in eternity?
We are all fallen, flawed and in the Christian vernacular, sinful.
None of us are in charge of another's eternal fate. Only God is. And God keeps his own council.
I know this is the most common attitude with people, but I have just never been able to understand it. I have tried to understand it, but failed.

I think the understanding is beyond our level, Im glad its like that to be honest. We as humans like to know the unknown, even if it causes our downfall.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 12:22 am

Falcolus,
I'm not a scholar either and I don't mean to come off that way if I do. These are the conclusions I've come to after many years of thinking, debating and discussing this very subject.
But I also have no proof or no guarantee where E &D are. I think that God has held them accountable for the lives they took as it says in the Bible all will be held to account for their wrongdoing. But that still doesn't mean they went to Hell in my view. And I believe that E &D now understand the true magnitude of what they did and are remorseful.
I believe they are in Heaven but I doubt that anybody on this Earth knows for sure. I hope that one day when it is time after the end comes, everyone who died that day will be seen in Heaven.


Falcolus wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:
I believe in the Christian way too, but Eric and Dylan were just kids.
If God would send them to Hell, would he send a 15 and 16 year old? Or a 13 and 14 year old?
That would mean that if some of the victims who died that day weren't saved, they would be in Hell too.
I believe one hundred percent that everything in the Bible is true. But I also think that God is merciful and in some cases , people who the world believes are in Hell, won't end up being there.

Falcolus wrote:
Sadly I believe that they went to hell, unless for some reason God forgave them of their actions which I wouldn't know. Being a Christian I believe that in order to not go to hell you have to have salvation, and as far as I am aware they didn't. I don't think there is much point in praying for the dead because they have already passed on and gone from the realms of this universe, But in saying that I do find myself praying for the families at times because they still must be hurting about the whole events. Of course I hope that something changed and they are now in a better place than here but who would know.

Very good points, I am not a scholar in that kind of thing so I wouldn't know. But yes God is merciful, so maybe they didn't end up there? I suppose we will find out one day Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 4:13 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
I believe in the Christian way too, but Eric and Dylan were just kids.
If God would send them to Hell, would he send a 15 and 16 year old? Or a 13 and 14 year old?

Not a big expert, but didn't christian God kill the firstborn sons of all egyptians, explicitly stating that this also including the children of egyptian slaves who were powerless in the whole policital affair?

So if the christian God can send the firstborn sons of egyptian slaves to hell and torture them for eternity there (I'm sure some of said sons must have been teens or smaller kids), why wouldn't he send Eric and Dylan to hell?

Also IIRC thre were other cases of God killing and sending to hell teenagers, like Absalom the rebel son of the king.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 6:46 am

I often wonder when exactly did the judgment start? I often hear that being punished for your sins only applies to humans, but why? IMO, we are only talking apes with strange haircuts. Supposedly we are intelligent, rational beings and therefore ''we should know better''. But that wasn't always the case.

Were our ancestors held to same standard, 200.000 years ago? They killed, stole, and probably cheated too. And what about our ancestors before them? They were fishes (big leap, I know Razz). It's not fair that we as modern humans are being judged for our sins only because we evolved. Therefore I have difficulties to believe this.

God may or may not exist. It doesn't really matter to me. Sometimes I think really hard and deep about this. Maybe God was an alien? Lol, I probably risk sounding crazy right now! But seriously, why not? I think humans can achieve a godlike status too in the future. True rulers of time, space and mass and determiners over life and death. Alien scientists could have achieved this a long time ago, in another universe/multiverse. Who says we weren't just an experiment and they have long since moved on, or completely vanished as a species? In that sense God is dead...

I don't understand the need for God to be worshipped either. Maybe he just likes to watch and needs to be entertained. Imagine dumber lifeforms or even pets looking at us and everything we are capable off. To them we might seem like gods, but they don't pray to us and neither do we want them to. The same might apply to God if he really exists. Weren't we created in his image? If so, then God likes killing and tormenting people too. He does it all the time, just like millions around the world. Why would he punish us for it?

Organized religion leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Especially because they involve ''prophets''. If I would say that I have a direct line to God, nowadays, men in white coats would come to pick me up and throw me into an insane asylum. Yet Jesus and Muhammed, who's existences have never been scientifically proven, are still being praised or glorified. To me, they are nothing more than symbols or even frauds and comparable to the likes of L. Ron Hubbard and Jim Jones.  

In some ways religion can have a positive effect on people. I am sure there are many who don't believe in everything the bible says but still think it's a right way of living and feel comfortable in going to church and belonging to a community. I get that, but it's not for me.

Maybe rewards and punishments are being given on earth, in the form of good and bad lives. I don't know, however. If anything, I believe the Eastern philosophies and karmic system comes closest to the truth. Alot of their teachings sound very logical to me. On the other hand they believe in a soul and judgments too, and that contradicts pretty much everything I just said.

Questions, questions, questions...

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 10:11 am

Aren't people who kill themselves meant to go to hell?

The old murder/ suicide could end up with them being doubly punished.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 1:47 pm

Haven't you played SCMRPG?
They went to the DOOM-themed hell and became friends with the South Park Satan.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 1:48 pm

asdf12345 wrote:
Haven't you played SCMRPG?
They went to the DOOM-themed hell and became friends with the South Park Satan.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 1:52 pm

Sabratha wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:
I believe in the Christian way too, but Eric and Dylan were just kids.
If God would send them to Hell, would he send a 15 and 16 year old? Or a 13 and 14 year old?

Not a big expert, but didn't christian God kill the firstborn sons of all egyptians, explicitly stating that this also including the children of egyptian slaves who were powerless in the whole policital affair?

So if the christian God can send the firstborn sons of egyptian slaves to hell and torture them for eternity there (I'm sure some of said sons must have been teens or smaller kids), why wouldn't he send Eric and Dylan to hell?

Also IIRC thre were other cases of God killing and sending to hell teenagers, like Absalom the rebel son of the king.

The Christian "God", just about as loving and forgiving as E/D themselves

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