If Dylan himself had taken any medication.....

I think he would have been in a much worse state than he was already in. Drugs in general do more harm than good if not monitored thoroughly. Just my opinion. Truthfully I'm glad Dylan wasn't put on any meds because it would have made him driven him more insane and possibly he would be just as psychotic as Eric. Thoughts comments?

I think he was already completely out of touch, homicidal and suicidal. I'm not a fan of medication but it would have been nice if anyone at all had been monitoring his mental health. Not that Eric's mental health treatment helped very much but at least it would have been more of a chance for Dylan to slip up and reveal something. He was just too good at hiding his issues and no one looked closely enough. I also don't really see how Dylan could have ended up any worse off than he did.

Idk if medication could've stabilised him, it may definitely start altering his state of mind or control the way it did Eric. I think it's creepy enough that while sober, Dylan was amazingly good at hiding while under depression, which I'm not sure if it's part of his depression or, he knew he had issues and he knew enough to hide his darkness and lies. You know that whole saying that crazy people don't know they're crazy? I feel that Dylan was still a little in touch with his issues and not completely out of it.

sscc wrote:

I think he was already completely out of touch, homicidal and suicidal. I'm not a fan of medication but it would have been nice if anyone at all had been monitoring his mental health. Not that Eric's mental health treatment helped very much but at least it would have been more of a chance for Dylan to slip up and reveal something. He was just too good at hiding his issues and no one looked closely enough. I also don't really see how Dylan could have ended up any worse off than he did.

Really good thoughts. I cannot say anything but nod.

I think it is tragical that no-one looked closely enough, and yes, he was way too good at hiding his issues. Also, he was too talented and skilled at acting. Even after the legal conviction, he was able to convince everyone - including professional folks in the rehab program - that he is okay and willing to change for the better.
(Sometimes I think becoming a professional actor would have been a good choice for him - I mean playing not in in Hollywood films, but in theater, e.g. classical drama.)

It is really scary to try to imagine how he ended up being completely out of touch?

If Dylan was completely out of touch then how could one explain why he was still conscious enough to lie and cover up his insanity? How did he know not to blow his cover prior to 4/20? If he was full-on depressed everyone would be able to see how much of a grubby isolated mess he was wouldn't they?

I honestly believe if you still know and am aware to hide your shit, you aren't completely out of touch.

Dylan is hard to pin down on this subject... On one hand he was too aggressively self-reliant and too ashamed of his issues to ask anyone for help. (Kind of unsurprising for a child who was grew up always praised and rewarded for being gifted, independent, and logical). He was steadfast in his refusal for therapy at his mom's suggestion after the van break-in, and admitted to no inner turmoil on his diversion paperwork. But at the same time, he was trying to self medicate with St John's Wort, and alcohol to some extent. On that same diversion paperwork, he writes in response to his attitudes towards mental health treatment: "Not necessary, but I will do it if diversion deems it necessary or desirable".

I think that as with many psychological issues, therapy and drugs only work as intended when the person truly wants to face their problems and change. Dylan appeared to have a huge issue with making himself vulnerable like that, which is why he may have stuck to the herbal supplements and other means of solitary, if destructive, coping. If he was accepting of the idea of going on meds and took them correctly, it could have helped him. As [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] said, considering the path he ultimately ventured down, I doubt they would have hurt. What could be worse than what he ended up doing in an unmedicated state anyway?

Unfortunately for Eric, as we know, meds still didn't help him. And it's tragic because I think he was much more familiar with being in a vulnerable state and therefore more amenable to professional means of help. However, if I remember correctly, Eric abused his medication and would go on and off of it at his own will, which can seriously mess with their effects.

Even so, all psychiatric medication is subject to the body chemistry of the individual who takes it. It's even trickier with teenagers to prescribe that perfect brand/dose in the first go. Who can say meds would have been unequivocally bad for Dylan, or ineffective for Eric if he found one that worked for him? If Dylan was able to get over his hang-ups about outside help, I think meds could have evened him out. It's not like he wasn't trying to do the same thing on his own time. He knew he wasn't operating in a state of normalcy, and he actively tried (for at least some amount of time) to change that.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

If Dylan was completely out of touch then how could one explain why he was still conscious enough to lie and cover up his insanity? How did he know not to blow his cover prior to 4/20? If he was full-on depressed everyone would be able to see how much of a grubby isolated mess he was wouldn't they?

I honestly believe if you still know and am aware to hide your shit, you aren't completely out of touch.

He really is such a strange bird once you start examining some of his actions. I agree that he should not be categorized as out of touch, as I think he operated too convincingly well-adjusted. There's no way he wasn't putting up that front consciously. I do truly believe he was in a constant state of depressiveness/suicidal ideation though, and simply found it easy to vacillate between the "normal family/social life" state of mind when he had to be around others and the "halcyon/zombie/NBK/downward spiral" state of mind when he was alone with himself. I think if anything he was out of touch with his place in reality; he could function in the world and society around him as expected, but inwardly had no intention of allowing it to be his fate. Kind of like when someone finds themselves talented at a skill or subject that they don't get any enjoyment out of.

Depressed people, even full-on depressed and suicidal, can be extremely adept at living out normal lives and conforming to expectations. Even people who don't have other compounding issues like Dylan did (homicidal much?). It's a defense mechanism.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

If Dylan was completely out of touch then how could one explain why he was still conscious enough to lie and cover up his insanity? How did he know not to blow his cover prior to 4/20? If he was full-on depressed everyone would be able to see how much of a grubby isolated mess he was wouldn't they?

I honestly believe if you still know and am aware to hide your shit, you aren't completely out of touch.

A great question, indeed.

You are right [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: of course, a clinically insane person cannot see the difference between his/her own subjective reality and the objective reality in their environment.

Dylan, no matter how troubled and destructive he was, seems to have been "normal" enough (not clinically insane) to understand that his norms are not the majority's norms. But he really disliked this fact.

And, there are many people who are good at "dissociating". Like, they are completely depressed, destructive or self-destructive, but in interaction with "normal" people, in "normal" situations, they are able to function as "normal" humans. (Think about how many depressed and/or suicidal people seek professional help, while hiding the seriousness of their mental problems.) This is what [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] described so well.

Sometimes a part of severe depression is being able to successfully hide it from everyone around you.  Being aware that you're doing this doesn't make you any less mentally ill. Some people can do this and some cannot. Some people are emotional basket-cases....they threaten suicide daily, cut themselves, have breakdowns, and generally cannot function. Others appear to be functioning just fine but on they inside they are dying....or already dead.

Also, there are different types of depression. Some are situational and some are caused by a severe chemical imbalance. If you have a serious chemical imbalance in your brain, all the wishful thinking and all the therapy in the world isn't going to completely fix your problem. It's like trying to wish cancer away.....you can't do it and medication is absolutely necessary.  I think it's very likely that Dylan did have a severe chemical imbalance and could have benefited from antidepressant therapy, but it could have taken quite awhile to find the right medication at the right dosage. Many people give up because of all the side effects of these medications. For some people, one category of antidepressants may make them feel worse, while another category makes them feel great.  Personally, when I took SSRI's, I felt awful. This makes me wonder if Eric's medication attributed to his actions, as Luvox is classified as an SSRI.

I guess it makes sense that he was out of it, meaning he was at the peak of depression, where beyond that line is complete dissociation hence enabling him to be out of touch with reality or his own pain and be normal around people. Maybe he wasn't even consciously hiding or acting much but it was just the ordinary state he was at that point of time of the day. Yes I agree that being able to act doesn't make one less depressed.

but between the two, does anyone feel that Eric could still have gotten help/be saved as opposed to Dylan?

ultraviolencelv wrote:

but between the two, does anyone feel that Eric could still have gotten help/be saved as opposed to Dylan?

I think both of them could have gotten help and been saved if the mental health system was more like how it is today. Back then it wasn't as relevant in society. I don't think people really understood it the way we do now.

Take Eric for example, and I know this has been referenced to death, but he was prescribed an anti depressant, and instead of being weaned off of it they immediately prescribe him with another one (kinda dangerous) that is used to treat ocd... Of all the issues that guy had, the main thing that stood out to them were his 'racing thoughts' so they treat him for ocd? I feel like if someone described having homicidal or suicidal thoughts Today, that would be the most important, serious issue to get under control... Eric did seem more willing to get help and accept treatment than Dylan.

I just realised that my question was redundant because the simple fact that he agreed to set-up for and commit the massacre is already the prove of being completely out of touch.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

but between the two, does anyone feel that Eric could still have gotten help/be saved as opposed to Dylan?

I'd like to believe both of them had the potential to get they help they needed. But I feel neither of ever admitted to their downfalls and in the end they just gave into their rage and hatred.

The only reason I don't side with medication is the fact that there isn't a one pill cure all. Eric is evidence of this. One pill doesn't work so we try another....there are so many possible pill combinations. If you watch TV at 2pm on a Tuesday you can see just about every commercial is for some kind of pill.

And Eric got caught up. He mentioned many things wrong on his diversion (and most likely also in therapy) and yet the therapist prescribed Luvox in the end. A pill that could worsen his other symptoms and very likely did....

We do know Dylan wanted to not be depressed. He writes about it, tried to medicate himself etc. I feel he could have been saved but like PP said he would have to want it. By the end of 1998 it was too late. I don't think he would have wanted to be saved anymore.

Freezingmoon wrote:

Also, there are different types of depression. Some are situational and some are caused by a severe chemical imbalance. If you have a serious chemical imbalance in your brain, all the wishful thinking and all the therapy in the world isn't going to completely fix your problem. It's like trying to wish cancer away.....you can't do it and medication is absolutely necessary.  

^ This.

I am in the medication camp, personally, because when I finally realized that it's a chemical imbalance, medicine has made a huge difference in my own life. SSRI and NDRI have come a long way.

BUT (and it's a big but)...medication doesn't necessarily change who you are fundamentally. If you are bound and determined on a course of action, unless you're given some serious sedatives, you will follow-through.

If Dylan had gotten himself some meds, there's no telling if he would have gone through with it. Yes, his writings are depressed, but like Eric on the Luvox, 'if there's a will, there's a way'.

I think its interesting that at some point Dylan was taking St. John's Wort (an OTC herb for depression) on his own accord. He was aware of how depressed he was and actually tried taking a step to fix it. Unfortunately there are many kinds of depression and none are really "quick fixes". Had Dylan gone to a doctor and been open about is issues I think he could have recovered eventually. Sadly teenagers tend to feel shame at being "different", and in 1999 depression was much more stigmatized.