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 The point of no return

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evelynssye



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PostSubject: The point of no return   Sun May 27, 2018 5:49 am

What do you guys think the point of no return was for Eric and Dylan?

I know in Eric's journal, he taunts by saying they have guns and there is no going back once he finally obtained them. But I don't mean that...

I'm talking about when both the boys decided in their head they were going to do something.

Gosh, I want to say for Eric at least the idea came into his head maybe around freshmen year. He only started his journal late in his junior year. And the first line of the first entry is, "I hate this fucking world." Now... if that doesn't say enough I don't know what will. If you start your journal with something so dark and hateful, it must be on your mind a lot and who knows for how long. But when did it become, " I hate this world," to " I hate this world and I'm going to destroy it?" Was Eric thinking one night about how he figures his life won't change and the world won't get any better, so he might as well cause as much mass destruction to show his hate? Even though it's widely believed Eric was more homicidal than anything, which is true, I believe he was also suicidal. I'm not saying that because he checked it off on the paper work he filled out for therapy/ the diversion program. I don't think he liked himself for a long time. There were so many factors I can think of, he was shy, withdrawn, Kevin was the star child, and that's just his personal life. I'm not even mentioning the bullying or belittling he faced at Columbine. Did he hate himself? To extent I think so. When you hate yourself, you think everyone hates you. And when you get tired of that, you hate the world. So... back to my original question. What was the tipping point for Eric? Did one day he just realize life was not worth it and started thinking of plans for mass destruction? Or did some bully at Columbine tell him off and he finally decided to go rogue?

For Dylan I think the tipping point happened a long long time before planning mass destruction. We all know he was suicidal and hated himself. For Dylan, I think, he only found self worth if he found some one who loved him. Which, a lot of people in the world have this problem. That's why he was obsessed with love and all the crushes he had on girls. But his depression also played a part in this. He got down on himself way to fast. He was hard on himself. I think one day he just had enough. Killing himself was the obvious goal in mind. Whether that be by himself or with Eric going NBK. Yes, I know. Dylan had a great time hooting and hollering during the massacre. But, and this is my opinion, I believe he was showing off for Eric. Now, I also believe Dylan had a hyper and excited side to him. So when he started to show Eric he was into shooting people, this behavior started to be transparent. Was this the real Dylan? This was a sick side of him yes, but I don't think it was him fully. He went into NBK because he was too scared to commit suicide by himself. If someone does it with him, great. Dylan needed that reassurance. By himself I think he felt inadequate. But with Eric, he felt confident. So .. anyway.. when was it when Dylan decided, " I'm not going to off myself by myself, I'll go NBK with Eric?"

Thoughts, opinions?

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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 8:04 pm

When they decided to kill themselves for good. That was when.
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 8:25 pm

Excellent question. Some speculate and Sue talks about this a Little bit in the chapter pathway to suicide in her book about the Tampon/ketchup incident being a turning point for them when they decided violence was the answer. Then of course the January incident solidified their bond. Reb and Vodka against the world.


Something I feel like is telling, in March 1999 and I’ll have to go back to the 11 K and see what page it’s on, in Dylan’s journal there’s a date in March where he writes down death, afraid? Like he’s checking in to see how he feels about NBK or just suicide with no NBK? There may have been his turning point where nothing was going to change his mind. I don’t think magically getting a girlfriend or Eric getting laid would stop them at that point. Maybe early senior year or the summer before junior year there could have been a chance?


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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 9:05 pm

As far as Eric's point of no return being during his freshman year, I highly doubt it. At that point he was still wearing "preppy" clothes, He went to the football games to cheer on Kevin. He even had a date for the Homecoming dance. My guess is that it was either at some point during the second half of his Junior year or the summer before Senior year. The whole point of his journal was so people would have something to study once he was gone, I also believe that was the summer they worked at the fireworks stand and began gathering materials for the pipe bombs on a large scale.

As far as Dylan I think its much harder to tell. As we all know Dylan suffered from depression throughout high school. You would need to pinpoint when his thoughts turned from just suicidal to suicidal and homicidal.
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 9:23 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
As far as Eric's point of no return being during his freshman year, I highly doubt it. At that point he was still wearing "preppy" clothes, He went to the football games to cheer on Kevin. He even had a date for the Homecoming dance. My guess is that it was either at some point during the second half of his Junior year or the summer before Senior year. The whole point of his journal was so people would have something to study once he was gone, I also believe that was the summer they worked at the fireworks stand and began gathering materials for the pipe bombs on a large scale. 



I agree. Freshman Eric just wasn't NBK bound quite yet. It would take a little while longer before he became that jaded, that disillusioned with himself and the world around him.  But I do think the real point of no return in Eric's mind was when they were successful in their attempts to get weapons. After that he clearly turned all his focus on NBK, on making reality out of his and Dylan's fantasy.

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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 10:06 pm

I think the tampon/ketchup incident was the point of no return.

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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 10:11 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I think the tampon/ketchup incident was the point of no return.

Did it hold a secret message? or was it just "oh look a tampon" or was it like "the ketchup looks like real blood so ahh gross" or was it like "oh here is your tampon pussies or what?"
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 10:12 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I think the tampon/ketchup incident was the point of no return.

Did it hold a secret message? or was it just "oh look a tampon" or was it like "the ketchup looks like real blood so ahh gross" or was it like "oh here is your tampon pussies or what?"

Likely the last one.

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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 10:15 pm

Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 10:18 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying. Shocked

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?

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My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 10:30 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying. Shocked

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?




Speaking of which cough :Walshtheory:

It also shows a lot of vicious forethought. They had to get the tampons, unwrap them, dip them in ketchup, find the one day e and d were not eating in their cars, corner them...


I think the boys also have poop thrown at them.
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 10:37 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying. Shocked

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?




Speaking of which cough  :Walshtheory:

It also shows a lot of vicious forethought. They had to get the tampons, unwrap them, dip them in ketchup, find the one day e and d were not eating in their cars, corner them...


I think the boys also have poop thrown at them.



Exactly. It was a planned, malicious attack. But was the feces throwing incident proven without a doubt? scratch

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My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 10:46 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying. Shocked

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?

sounds like fun
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 10:46 pm

I think Erics point of no return was quite sudden and defined while Dylans was not.

I think so because I believe that a part of why Eric so easily could adopt this Reb-persona is because of hatred towards himself for previously trying to fit in with a group he hated. As he said in his journal he realized that everyone just copies one another and If I remember correctly he said he does too. I can relate to how small one feels when having based the person you are on a group of people that you realize you hate.

To feel so small and undefined really makes it easier to become who the fuck ever without any good reasons as to why, because whatever reason is better than the reason that you want to fit in with something that makes you into nothing.

In the end a person needs to feel their OWN motivations driving them and since Eric had just tried to fit in he had no own motivations and no clear picture of who he was. I think he was very suggestible and probably adopted a lot from Dylan, only Eric was a less defined person which made it easier for him to express these emotions openly.
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 10:47 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying. Shocked

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?

sounds like fun


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   Um which part? Shocked

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 10:48 pm

Oh and by openly I mean on the internet and shouting in German cheers
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 10:51 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying. Shocked

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?




Speaking of which cough  :Walshtheory:

It also shows a lot of vicious forethought. They had to get the tampons, unwrap them, dip them in ketchup, find the one day e and d were not eating in their cars, corner them...


I think the boys also have poop thrown at them.



Exactly. It was a planned, malicious attack.  But was the feces throwing incident proven without a doubt? scratch

To be honest no. Only garbage and tobacco spit.

If I went to CHS or if that happened at my HS I was would have been horrified Sad

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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 10:52 pm

The fact that Eric moved around a lot and never really got to stick to a social roll for a longer period of time probably also played a part in why he was very suggestible and confused about himself
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 10:56 pm

I could be mixing the 2 up but I read somewhere that dylan copied Eric in aesthetic but I’m pretty sure Devon said Eric was the one who emulated Dylan and that annoyed him.

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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 11:00 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying. Shocked

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?




Speaking of which cough  :Walshtheory:

It also shows a lot of vicious forethought. They had to get the tampons, unwrap them, dip them in ketchup, find the one day e and d were not eating in their cars, corner them...


I think the boys also have poop thrown at them.



Exactly. It was a planned, malicious attack.  But was the feces throwing incident proven without a doubt? scratch

To be honest no. Only garbage and tobacco spit.

If I went to CHS or if that happened at my HS I was would have been horrified Sad



If that had happened to me I would have lost my shit and attacked. Evil or Very Mad I wouldn't care if they beat me like a drum. They would have at least known I was there. Twisted Evil

I feel that Eric and Dylan were picked on because they weren't known to fight back. Yes, they did some petty ass get even pranks. But if they had just let loose a few punches it would have gotten them a little respect. They may have gotten their ass kicked, but at least they wouldn't be known as easy targets.

Sorry, I was raised to take up for myself. EVEN if it meant being or getting violent. Embarassed Haha

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 11:05 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying. Shocked

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?




Speaking of which cough  :Walshtheory:

It also shows a lot of vicious forethought. They had to get the tampons, unwrap them, dip them in ketchup, find the one day e and d were not eating in their cars, corner them...


I think the boys also have poop thrown at them.



Exactly. It was a planned, malicious attack.  But was the feces throwing incident proven without a doubt? scratch

To be honest no. Only garbage and tobacco spit.

If I went to CHS or if that happened at my HS I was would have been horrified Sad



If that had happened to me I would have lost my shit and attacked. Evil or Very Mad I wouldn't care if they beat me like a drum. They would have at least known I was there. Twisted Evil

I feel that Eric and Dylan were picked on because they weren't known to fight back. Yes, they did some petty ass get even pranks. But if they had just let loose a few punches it would have gotten them at little respect. They may have gotten their ass kicked, but at least they wouldn't be known as easy targets.

Sorry, I was raised to take up for myself. EVEN if it meant being or getting violent. Embarassed Haha




Dylan did yell eventually but that Probably just egged them on. Shoving a random girl just made him look like an asshole.

I think junior year Dylan could have thrown a good punch. He was pretty strong looking in the RNN video
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 11:08 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I could be mixing the 2 up but I read somewhere that dylan copied Eric in aesthetic but I’m pretty sure Devon said Eric was the one who emulated Dylan and that annoyed him.

I remember Devon in an interview saying Dylan was annoyed that Eric copied him.

I think it is very interesting to think about how much Erics past influenced how fluid his personality was. The plattsburgh friends do also describe him as "just a normal kid" which is what he likely tried to become at columbine.

Eric really shows how important it is to develop and stick to your character and sense of self early on in life, otherwise you just fall into nothingness when the strategy of just playing along doesn't fulfill you.
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 11:16 pm

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I could be mixing the 2 up but I read somewhere that dylan copied Eric in aesthetic but I’m pretty sure Devon said Eric was the one who emulated Dylan and that annoyed him.

I remember Devon in an interview saying Dylan was annoyed that Eric copied him.

I think it is very interesting to think about how much Erics past influenced how fluid his personality was. The plattsburgh friends do also describe him as "just a normal kid" which is what he likely tried to become at columbine.

Eric really shows how important it is to develop and stick to your character and sense of self early on in life, otherwise you just fall into nothingness when the strategy of just playing along doesn't fulfill you.

I agree!

Also if you compare Eric and Dylan’s journals. Eric parrots Dylan’s sentiments

Dylan writes I have self awareness and Eric goes me and V have self awareness!! Then the zombies/robots

Eric writes early on that he’s not god. Dylan writes “I’m godlike”

Eric goes v and I are GODS!! I’m paraphrasing
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Tue May 29, 2018 11:30 pm

I do wonder legitimately what Eric and Dylan’s reaction would have been if they were assaulted the night of the January incident

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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Wed May 30, 2018 12:12 am

The January incident is when they got arrested right?

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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Wed May 30, 2018 12:18 am

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The January incident is when they got arrested right?

Yes!

To say Dylan took it hard is an understatement. He felt he needed to serve up some wrath
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Wed May 30, 2018 12:47 am

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Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying. Shocked

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?




Speaking of which cough  :Walshtheory:

It also shows a lot of vicious forethought. They had to get the tampons, unwrap them, dip them in ketchup, find the one day e and d were not eating in their cars, corner them...


I think the boys also have poop thrown at them.



Exactly. It was a planned, malicious attack.  But was the feces throwing incident proven without a doubt? scratch

To be honest no. Only garbage and tobacco spit.

If I went to CHS or if that happened at my HS I was would have been horrified Sad



If that had happened to me I would have lost my shit and attacked. Evil or Very Mad I wouldn't care if they beat me like a drum. They would have at least known I was there. Twisted Evil

I feel that Eric and Dylan were picked on because they weren't known to fight back. Yes, they did some petty ass get even pranks. But if they had just let loose a few punches it would have gotten them a little respect. They may have gotten their ass kicked, but at least they wouldn't be known as easy targets.

Sorry, I was raised to take up for myself. EVEN if it meant being or getting violent. Embarassed Haha

I imagine that they felt getting beaten up on top of getting pelted with ketchup tampons would've been (literal) injury to insult. I remember in Elliot Roger's manifesto he mentioned that on the worst day of his life, what was worse than not being accepted by any women and getting humiliated at a party was when he got beaten up after having his sunglasses stolen. 

To be honest though I think getting arrested was more humiliating for Eric and Dylan than the abuse they suffered at school.

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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Wed May 30, 2018 1:07 am

Every man for himself.
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Wed May 30, 2018 1:11 am

we could pretend there is a group
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PostSubject: Re: The point of no return   Wed May 30, 2018 2:06 am

if you judge others behavior you will judge your own and when you judge your own every relationship you had will be ruined because you will think you did something wrong in it and you will think that it wasn't a beautiful thing. you guys are making a big deal out of nothing. humans don't have rules or guidelines. they are a universal accident.
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