The point of no return

What do you guys think the point of no return was for Eric and Dylan?

I know in Eric's journal, he taunts by saying they have guns and there is no going back once he finally obtained them. But I don't mean that...

I'm talking about when both the boys decided in their head they were going to do something.

Gosh, I want to say for Eric at least the idea came into his head maybe around freshmen year. He only started his journal late in his junior year. And the first line of the first entry is, "I hate this fucking world." Now... if that doesn't say enough I don't know what will. If you start your journal with something so dark and hateful, it must be on your mind a lot and who knows for how long. But when did it become, " I hate this world," to " I hate this world and I'm going to destroy it?" Was Eric thinking one night about how he figures his life won't change and the world won't get any better, so he might as well cause as much mass destruction to show his hate? Even though it's widely believed Eric was more homicidal than anything, which is true, I believe he was also suicidal. I'm not saying that because he checked it off on the paper work he filled out for therapy/ the diversion program. I don't think he liked himself for a long time. There were so many factors I can think of, he was shy, withdrawn, Kevin was the star child, and that's just his personal life. I'm not even mentioning the bullying or belittling he faced at Columbine. Did he hate himself? To extent I think so. When you hate yourself, you think everyone hates you. And when you get tired of that, you hate the world. So... back to my original question. What was the tipping point for Eric? Did one day he just realize life was not worth it and started thinking of plans for mass destruction? Or did some bully at Columbine tell him off and he finally decided to go rogue?

For Dylan I think the tipping point happened a long long time before planning mass destruction. We all know he was suicidal and hated himself. For Dylan, I think, he only found self worth if he found some one who loved him. Which, a lot of people in the world have this problem. That's why he was obsessed with love and all the crushes he had on girls. But his depression also played a part in this. He got down on himself way to fast. He was hard on himself. I think one day he just had enough. Killing himself was the obvious goal in mind. Whether that be by himself or with Eric going NBK. Yes, I know. Dylan had a great time hooting and hollering during the massacre. But, and this is my opinion, I believe he was showing off for Eric. Now, I also believe Dylan had a hyper and excited side to him. So when he started to show Eric he was into shooting people, this behavior started to be transparent. Was this the real Dylan? This was a sick side of him yes, but I don't think it was him fully. He went into NBK because he was too scared to commit suicide by himself. If someone does it with him, great. Dylan needed that reassurance. By himself I think he felt inadequate. But with Eric, he felt confident. So .. anyway.. when was it when Dylan decided, " I'm not going to off myself by myself, I'll go NBK with Eric?"

Thoughts, opinions?

When they decided to kill themselves for good. That was when.

Excellent question. Some speculate and Sue talks about this a Little bit in the chapter pathway to suicide in her book about the Tampon/ketchup incident being a turning point for them when they decided violence was the answer. Then of course the January incident solidified their bond. Reb and Vodka against the world.


Something I feel like is telling, in March 1999 and I’ll have to go back to the 11 K and see what page it’s on, in Dylan’s journal there’s a date in March where he writes down death, afraid? Like he’s checking in to see how he feels about NBK or just suicide with no NBK? There may have been his turning point where nothing was going to change his mind. I don’t think magically getting a girlfriend or Eric getting laid would stop them at that point. Maybe early senior year or the summer before junior year there could have been a chance?

As far as Eric's point of no return being during his freshman year, I highly doubt it. At that point he was still wearing "preppy" clothes, He went to the football games to cheer on Kevin. He even had a date for the Homecoming dance. My guess is that it was either at some point during the second half of his Junior year or the summer before Senior year. The whole point of his journal was so people would have something to study once he was gone, I also believe that was the summer they worked at the fireworks stand and began gathering materials for the pipe bombs on a large scale.

As far as Dylan I think its much harder to tell. As we all know Dylan suffered from depression throughout high school. You would need to pinpoint when his thoughts turned from just suicidal to suicidal and homicidal.

Jollyhelpful wrote:

As far as Eric's point of no return being during his freshman year, I highly doubt it. At that point he was still wearing "preppy" clothes, He went to the football games to cheer on Kevin. He even had a date for the Homecoming dance. My guess is that it was either at some point during the second half of his Junior year or the summer before Senior year. The whole point of his journal was so people would have something to study once he was gone, I also believe that was the summer they worked at the fireworks stand and began gathering materials for the pipe bombs on a large scale. 

I agree. Freshman Eric just wasn't NBK bound quite yet. It would take a little while longer before he became that jaded, that disillusioned with himself and the world around him.  But I do think the real point of no return in Eric's mind was when they were successful in their attempts to get weapons. After that he clearly turned all his focus on NBK, on making reality out of his and Dylan's fantasy.

I think the tampon/ketchup incident was the point of no return.

Tommy QTR wrote:

I think the tampon/ketchup incident was the point of no return.

Did it hold a secret message? or was it just "oh look a tampon" or was it like "the ketchup looks like real blood so ahh gross" or was it like "oh here is your tampon pussies or what?"

JP wrote:

Tommy QTR wrote:

I think the tampon/ketchup incident was the point of no return.

Did it hold a secret message? or was it just "oh look a tampon" or was it like "the ketchup looks like real blood so ahh gross" or was it like "oh here is your tampon pussies or what?"

Likely the last one.

Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

JP wrote:

Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying.

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

JP wrote:

Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying.

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?

Speaking of which cough :Walshtheory:

It also shows a lot of vicious forethought. They had to get the tampons, unwrap them, dip them in ketchup, find the one day e and d were not eating in their cars, corner them...


I think the boys also have poop thrown at them.

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

JP wrote:

Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying.

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?

Speaking of which cough  :Walshtheory:

It also shows a lot of vicious forethought. They had to get the tampons, unwrap them, dip them in ketchup, find the one day e and d were not eating in their cars, corner them...


I think the boys also have poop thrown at them.

Exactly. It was a planned, malicious attack. But was the feces throwing incident proven without a doubt?

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

JP wrote:

Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying.

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?

sounds like fun

I think Erics point of no return was quite sudden and defined while Dylans was not.

I think so because I believe that a part of why Eric so easily could adopt this Reb-persona is because of hatred towards himself for previously trying to fit in with a group he hated. As he said in his journal he realized that everyone just copies one another and If I remember correctly he said he does too. I can relate to how small one feels when having based the person you are on a group of people that you realize you hate.

To feel so small and undefined really makes it easier to become who the fuck ever without any good reasons as to why, because whatever reason is better than the reason that you want to fit in with something that makes you into nothing.

In the end a person needs to feel their OWN motivations driving them and since Eric had just tried to fit in he had no own motivations and no clear picture of who he was. I think he was very suggestible and probably adopted a lot from Dylan, only Eric was a less defined person which made it easier for him to express these emotions openly.

JP wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

JP wrote:

Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying.

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?

sounds like fun

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   Um which part?

Oh and by openly I mean on the internet and shouting in German

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

JP wrote:

Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying.

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?

Speaking of which cough  :Walshtheory:

It also shows a lot of vicious forethought. They had to get the tampons, unwrap them, dip them in ketchup, find the one day e and d were not eating in their cars, corner them...


I think the boys also have poop thrown at them.

Exactly. It was a planned, malicious attack.  But was the feces throwing incident proven without a doubt?

To be honest no. Only garbage and tobacco spit.

If I went to CHS or if that happened at my HS I was would have been horrified

The fact that Eric moved around a lot and never really got to stick to a social roll for a longer period of time probably also played a part in why he was very suggestible and confused about himself

I could be mixing the 2 up but I read somewhere that dylan copied Eric in aesthetic but I’m pretty sure Devon said Eric was the one who emulated Dylan and that annoyed him.

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

JP wrote:

Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying.

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?

Speaking of which cough  :Walshtheory:

It also shows a lot of vicious forethought. They had to get the tampons, unwrap them, dip them in ketchup, find the one day e and d were not eating in their cars, corner them...


I think the boys also have poop thrown at them.

Exactly. It was a planned, malicious attack.  But was the feces throwing incident proven without a doubt?

To be honest no. Only garbage and tobacco spit.

If I went to CHS or if that happened at my HS I was would have been horrified

If that had happened to me I would have lost my shit and attacked. I wouldn't care if they beat me like a drum. They would have at least known I was there.

I feel that Eric and Dylan were picked on because they weren't known to fight back. Yes, they did some petty ass get even pranks. But if they had just let loose a few punches it would have gotten them a little respect. They may have gotten their ass kicked, but at least they wouldn't be known as easy targets.

Sorry, I was raised to take up for myself. EVEN if it meant being or getting violent.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

JP wrote:

Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying.

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?

Speaking of which cough  :Walshtheory:

It also shows a lot of vicious forethought. They had to get the tampons, unwrap them, dip them in ketchup, find the one day e and d were not eating in their cars, corner them...


I think the boys also have poop thrown at them.

Exactly. It was a planned, malicious attack.  But was the feces throwing incident proven without a doubt?

To be honest no. Only garbage and tobacco spit.

If I went to CHS or if that happened at my HS I was would have been horrified

If that had happened to me I would have lost my shit and attacked. I wouldn't care if they beat me like a drum. They would have at least known I was there.

I feel that Eric and Dylan were picked on because they weren't known to fight back. Yes, they did some petty ass get even pranks. But if they had just let loose a few punches it would have gotten them at little respect. They may have gotten their ass kicked, but at least they wouldn't be known as easy targets.

Sorry, I was raised to take up for myself. EVEN if it meant being or getting violent.

Dylan did yell eventually but that Probably just egged them on. Shoving a random girl just made him look like an asshole.

I think junior year Dylan could have thrown a good punch. He was pretty strong looking in the RNN video

Screamingophelia wrote:

I could be mixing the 2 up but I read somewhere that dylan copied Eric in aesthetic but I’m pretty sure Devon said Eric was the one who emulated Dylan and that annoyed him.

I remember Devon in an interview saying Dylan was annoyed that Eric copied him.

I think it is very interesting to think about how much Erics past influenced how fluid his personality was. The plattsburgh friends do also describe him as "just a normal kid" which is what he likely tried to become at columbine.

Eric really shows how important it is to develop and stick to your character and sense of self early on in life, otherwise you just fall into nothingness when the strategy of just playing along doesn't fulfill you.

munchkinphone wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I could be mixing the 2 up but I read somewhere that dylan copied Eric in aesthetic but I’m pretty sure Devon said Eric was the one who emulated Dylan and that annoyed him.

I remember Devon in an interview saying Dylan was annoyed that Eric copied him.

I think it is very interesting to think about how much Erics past influenced how fluid his personality was. The plattsburgh friends do also describe him as "just a normal kid" which is what he likely tried to become at columbine.

Eric really shows how important it is to develop and stick to your character and sense of self early on in life, otherwise you just fall into nothingness when the strategy of just playing along doesn't fulfill you.

I agree!

Also if you compare Eric and Dylan’s journals. Eric parrots Dylan’s sentiments

Dylan writes I have self awareness and Eric goes me and V have self awareness!! Then the zombies/robots

Eric writes early on that he’s not god. Dylan writes “I’m godlike”

Eric goes v and I are GODS!! I’m paraphrasing

I do wonder legitimately what Eric and Dylan’s reaction would have been if they were assaulted the night of the January incident

The January incident is when they got arrested right?

Tommy QTR wrote:

The January incident is when they got arrested right?

Yes!

To say Dylan took it hard is an understatement. He felt he needed to serve up some wrath

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

JP wrote:

Perhaps since it is an object that enters the vagina, there is a sexual inclination of some sort

It's not like they were held down and had the tampons inserted anywhere. That would be a whole other ball park in terms of bullying.

But what did happen was bad enough.  I mean how demeaning would it be to a guy to be pelted with fake blood ketchup coated tampons while people laughed at you?

Speaking of which cough  :Walshtheory:

It also shows a lot of vicious forethought. They had to get the tampons, unwrap them, dip them in ketchup, find the one day e and d were not eating in their cars, corner them...


I think the boys also have poop thrown at them.

Exactly. It was a planned, malicious attack.  But was the feces throwing incident proven without a doubt?

To be honest no. Only garbage and tobacco spit.

If I went to CHS or if that happened at my HS I was would have been horrified

If that had happened to me I would have lost my shit and attacked. I wouldn't care if they beat me like a drum. They would have at least known I was there.

I feel that Eric and Dylan were picked on because they weren't known to fight back. Yes, they did some petty ass get even pranks. But if they had just let loose a few punches it would have gotten them a little respect. They may have gotten their ass kicked, but at least they wouldn't be known as easy targets.

Sorry, I was raised to take up for myself. EVEN if it meant being or getting violent.

I imagine that they felt getting beaten up on top of getting pelted with ketchup tampons would've been (literal) injury to insult. I remember in Elliot Roger's manifesto he mentioned that on the worst day of his life, what was worse than not being accepted by any women and getting humiliated at a party was when he got beaten up after having his sunglasses stolen. 

To be honest though I think getting arrested was more humiliating for Eric and Dylan than the abuse they suffered at school.

Every man for himself.

we could pretend there is a group

if you judge others behavior you will judge your own and when you judge your own every relationship you had will be ruined because you will think you did something wrong in it and you will think that it wasn't a beautiful thing. you guys are making a big deal out of nothing. humans don't have rules or guidelines. they are a universal accident.

JP wrote:

if you judge others behavior you will judge your own and when you judge your own every relationship you had will be ruined because you will think you did something wrong in it and you will think that it wasn't a beautiful thing. you guys are making a big deal out of nothing. humans don't have rules or guidelines. they are a universal accident.

WOW

lol. lucky guy you are

WTF is going on here. None of this makes any sense

Lizpuff wrote:

WTF is going on here.  None of this makes any sense

No one really knows. JP seems to like posting weird, off the wall, confusing things.

Or were you talking about the thread in general?

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

WTF is going on here.  None of this makes any sense

No one really knows. JP seems to like posting weird, off the wall, confusing things.

Or were you talking about the thread in general?

That JP guy mostly. Is he the arms around my shoulders guy?

Lizpuff wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

WTF is going on here.  None of this makes any sense

No one really knows. JP seems to like posting weird, off the wall, confusing things.

Or were you talking about the thread in general?

That JP guy mostly.  Is he the arms around my shoulders guy?

The one and only!

People here got a second chance at life and they are blowing it spending time on here instead of enjoying something else.

Or are we multitasking?

I’ve been known to post while enjoying wine AND listening to music....

the subject matter is pointless

JP wrote:

People here got a second chance at life and they are blowing it spending time on here instead of enjoying something else.

If this is how you think then why are you here? Are you just not the practice what you preach type?

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

WTF is going on here.  None of this makes any sense

No one really knows. JP seems to like posting weird, off the wall, confusing things.

Or were you talking about the thread in general?

That JP guy mostly.  Is he the arms around my shoulders guy?

The one and only!

That answers all my questions and confusions.

Lizpuff wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

WTF is going on here.  None of this makes any sense

No one really knows. JP seems to like posting weird, off the wall, confusing things.

Or were you talking about the thread in general?

That JP guy mostly.  Is he the arms around my shoulders guy?

The one and only!

That answers all my questions and confusions.  

JP wrote:

humans don't have rules or guidelines. they are a universal accident.

You are 100% correct for once.

JP wrote:

People here got a second chance at life and they are blowing it spending time on here instead of enjoying something else.

What do you mean by "second chance"?

I think JP might be waving red flags........

Ziamber II wrote:

I think JP might be waving red flags........

nope.

QuestionMark wrote:

JP wrote:

People here got a second chance at life and they are blowing it spending time on here instead of enjoying something else.

What do you mean by "second chance"?

of course jesus christ dying for your sins

i wonder what the families think of this place

There is a survivor on the board who posts and she’s pretty cool.....she’s always thoughtful and has Obviously great insight. She was in the library.

did eric and dylan ever commit an act of violence on anyone in their entire life before columbine?