The dumbest idea

Probably the dumbest idea I've heard about how we should respond to mass shootings is to call mass shooters losers. Most of them already identify as losers. That's why they did what they did. So calling them losers just gives other self identifying losers a script to commit shootings of their own. No Notoriety has much more merit than this idea.

I'm annoyed I can't bring up an article, but I know I've read a few in the past where they suggested this idea, to call mass shooters by some ridiculous name to make them out as losers. Again, very dumb idea.

I agree, and for some it will even more stress the gap between them and the society. I can well imagine those who admire mass shooters think "The society already didn't want us, and now they call us losers."

However, unlike many people, I think the main idea of No Notoriety is quite good, but it won't work alone and it must be done in a way that does not prevent journalists from sharing informations so that it does not increase the number of conspiration theory.

Neah wrote:

I think the main idea of No Notoriety is quite good

I don't.

In China they have policies very similar to what the No Notoriety movement is pushing. Guess what? Hasn't stopped mass murder by a long shot. Fuck, even gun control would be smarter than No Notoriety, and that's a terrible idea as well.

Agreed, if a future mass shooter read a article about their hero where the media called them a loser, i think this would only make future shooters more pissed with society and would make them more determined to kill everyone. Im also pissed off with the articles that call shooters cowards. especially The Trench Reynolds fuck i cant stand that guy. people and the media calling them cowards when yet they themselves wouldnt have the GUTS to do what they did, i mean committing a mass shooting takes a lot of courage and some mental shit to go through with.

QuestionMark wrote:

Neah wrote:

I think the main idea of No Notoriety is quite good

I don't.

In China they have policies very similar to what the No Notoriety movement is pushing. Guess what? Hasn't stopped mass murder by a long shot. Fuck, even gun control would be smarter than No Notoriety, and that's a terrible idea as well.

Extactly, it does not matter if the media decides to show the shooters name and face, future shooters will still do it regardless if they heard of other shootings or not! plus some shooters researched other shooters on the internet......*Robert Steinhauser, Adam Lanza, Eric Hainstock, Jesse Osborne and others*

TheOne99 wrote:

Im also pissed off with the articles that call shooters cowards. especially The Trench Reynolds fuck i cant stand that guy. people and the media calling them cowards when yet they themselves wouldnt have the GUTS to do what they did, i mean committing a mass shooting takes a lot of courage and some mental shit to go through with.  

Exactly. It's not exactly easy to commit a mass murder.

I had written a long reply but I accidentally deleted it so if someone was quoting it it would be great.

But in short: I am not delusional, I don't think No Notoriety would have a real impact. In fact I hope I am being pessimistic but I don't think any measure alone could have an impact. I just think that sometimes mass shooters are described as movie-like characters and it could be better to describe them as they really were, without exaggerating or making it even more sensational. I also think that seing that mass murderers are talked a lot in medias could give one more reason to commit a mass shooting when you already feel powerless and rejected. It won't give you the idea, but it could validate an already made choice.

No Notoriety is a rather structured group, I don't know what their agenda is and how they want to put their ideas into practice, I just talked about the main and vague idea of portrayal of mass shooters in the medias.

Neah wrote:

I hope I am being pessimistic but I don't think any measure alone could have an impact.

I tend to think this way too. I have a sinking feeling that there's nothing that society would be willing to do that would actually work to stop mass murder.

QuestionMark wrote:

Neah wrote:

I hope I am being pessimistic but I don't think any measure alone could have an impact.

I tend to think this way too. I have a sinking feeling that there's nothing that society would be willing to do that would actually work to stop mass murder.

The thing is many people refuse to see beyond their own agenda. The solution is not only gun control, or on the contrary less regulation about weapons, it is not only fighting bullying, or only solving mental health issues, or only changing the portrayal of mass shooters in medias. It is a mix of all that, and even more. There is no magic remedy, despite what many gun control supporters want us to think.

log_1987 wrote:

Probably the dumbest idea I've heard about how we should respond to mass shootings is to call mass shooters losers. Most of them already identify as losers. That's why they did what they did. So calling them losers just gives other self identifying losers a script to commit shootings of their own. No Notoriety has much more merit than this idea.

I'm annoyed I can't bring up an article, but I know I've read a few in the past where they suggested this idea, to call mass shooters by some ridiculous name to make them out as losers. Again, very dumb idea.

Many as you said already identify as losers. For those with depression, this might make them more desperate and even more willing to go on to harm others as opposed to just harming themselves. Those with psychopathic traits won't care either way. Most of those with psychothic traits also won't care (or even notice the thing).

So I think its a strategy that's gonna be ineffective regardless of the target demographic, in cas eof depressives it might even make things worse.

However what is the other option?

Of course society must admit that they are somehow worse or inferior to regular people because otherwise they would normalize their behaviour.

Maybe they should instead of calling them losers call them victims of poor mental health or something but then again wouldn't that just make people with poor mental health relate to them and be more likely to take inspiration from what they did?

The best thing to do is probably to not label them as anything that can relate to anyone, to basically demonize them to the general public so that.. less intelligent people don't take inspiration from them.

munchkinphone wrote:

The best thing to do is probably to not label them as anything that can relate to anyone, to basically demonize them to the general public so that.. less intelligent people don't take inspiration from them.

I disagree. I think a lot of mass murders want to be demonised. They hate society. They might want fame, but not adoration, rather they want to be seen as evil. Mass murders exist outside the "general public", so anything to distinguish themselves from the general public becomes a bonus.

But aren't people who are murderers and want to be demonised already a lost case?

I think society has a duty to protect stupid people from becoming evil people and the way of doing that is by limiting their access to information that humanizes killers or makes them relatable.

I mean look at the motives of these recent mass shooters, so fucking vague and stupid and so much copycatting... these are not intelligent people.

People who are smart and still become evil I think can't really be stopped. I mean if someone has a solid reason that they believe in more than life itself.. it's inevitable. It's a mental health issue that needs to be prevented... not treated.

munchkinphone wrote:

But aren't people who are murderers and want to be demonised already a lost case?

I think society has a duty to protect stupid people from becoming evil people and the way of doing that is by limiting their access to information that humanizes killers or makes them relatable.

I mean look at the motives of these recent mass shooters, so fucking vague and stupid and so much copycatting... these are not intelligent people.

People who are smart and still become evil I think can't really be stopped. I mean if someone has a solid reason that they believe in more than life itself.. it's inevitable. It's a mental health issue that needs to be prevented... not treated.

Which is why I will never understand why they released so much of Eric and Dylan’s stuff. So many things they released humanized them a great deal. Made them look like regular kids. I mean I’m grateful as a researcher to have those things. However if you’re talking about contagion it wasn’t a good thing to do.

Especially if you have someone who feel so unloved and angry they may think maybe if I die or do something bad people will see that I was a person too and see my pain and love me?

munchkinphone wrote:

I think society has a duty to protect stupid people from becoming evil people and the way of doing that is by limiting their access to information that humanizes killers or makes them relatable.

Even if I would be personally disappointed, I think the access to some information should be controlled, but I think it is because society has a duty to protect itself from stupid people, not to protect stupid people.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Which is why I will never understand why they released so much of Eric and Dylan’s stuff. So many things they released humanized them a great deal. Made them look like regular kids. I mean I’m grateful as a researcher to have those things. However if you’re talking about contagion it wasn’t a good thing to do.

Especially if you have someone who feel so unloved and angry they may think maybe if I die or do something bad people will see that I was a person too and see my pain and love me?

I agree with you, I do think there is a contagion effect, and I don't understand why so many people here disagree with that. This is what I meant when we mentioned No Notoriety in the comments above. I am not really sure how to prevent the contagion effect, but I acknowledge it.

How are people stupid? They could have an underlying mental condition. Eric and Dylan certainly weren’t stupid, James Holmes wasn’t stupid, he was a scientist. Cho got into Virginia tech that’s a really good school.

People with these thoughts will never go get help help if they’re going to be demonized. It’s hard enough for people with depression or anything like that to go get help let alone somebody who feels like they want to hurt others!!

I'm saying they are stupid in the sense that they can't apply critical thinking to their own rationalization that leads to an attempt to justify killing a bunch of people.

I'm saying this after watching the parkland shooter talk about what he is going to do...
It is obvious that some people have very illogical motives or vague ones or motives based on fantasies (Randy....)

I agree it isn't smart to bash these people and their psychology, I just wanted to point out that people like that probably are more prone to mindlessly take inspiration from previous shooters and therefore it is good if the general media just demonize killers and don't humanize them.

I'm of course grateful that there are other media sites like this one that doesn't have that simplistic attitude though... it's probably for the best if crazy people don't find them

I see your point of view munchkinphone and I agree with you I guess I just took stupid the wrong way.  I’m kind of in a mood today LOL I apologize.

Which is why I still sometimes really wonder exactly what was in the basement tapes. Because there’s already so much evidence and interviews showing that Eric and Dylan were smart but then there’s other people who who saw the BT who say Eric and Dylan sounded very charismatic and smart and funny. But a lot of that stuff already released Shows a lot of creativity and even sometimes kindness on top of all the vitriol and hate that they spewed.. So no ones explaination of why they were never released makes sense to me.

munchkinphone wrote:

However what is the other option? 

Frankly there is no workable option. Mass murder might as well be like a natural disaster in terms of how unpreventable it really is.

QuestionMark wrote:

munchkinphone wrote:

However what is the other option? 

Frankly there is no workable option. Mass murder might as well be like a natural disaster in terms of how unpreventable it really is.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   DAMN! Truth in its most brutal form.

I don't think they are stupid, but I think they are weak at the moment they want to do it, and they feel powerless. Sometimes I think if they bore their teenage years they could live a very happy adult life.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

munchkinphone wrote:

However what is the other option? 

Frankly there is no workable option. Mass murder might as well be like a natural disaster in terms of how unpreventable it really is.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   DAMN! Truth in its most brutal form.

Oddly enough I feel like sometimes the only way to stop a mass murderer is with violence.

That’s a question I posed in another thread. If say Eric or Dylan’s father ended up at the school that day and they had access to a gun would they shoot them to stop them. I think Wayne surely would. I don’t think he’d have any problem killing Dylan but he probably would just shoot to disarm Eric

I think these mass shootings are also hard to study because they all seem to have completely different psychology and motivations behind them. Which is why it’s easy to say just take away the method that destruction and not think about what else might be going on

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

munchkinphone wrote:

However what is the other option? 

Frankly there is no workable option. Mass murder might as well be like a natural disaster in terms of how unpreventable it really is.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   DAMN! Truth in its most brutal form.

Yeah, unfortunately there's little that can be done to really stop these kinds of crimes. Take a person like Stephen Paddock for instance, he had a clean record, not even so much as slight concern from his friends and family that he would commit such a crime, and he still inexplicably decided to gun down dozens.

QuestionMark wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

munchkinphone wrote:

However what is the other option? 

Frankly there is no workable option. Mass murder might as well be like a natural disaster in terms of how unpreventable it really is.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   DAMN! Truth in its most brutal form.

Yeah, unfortunately there's little that can be done to really stop these kinds of crimes. Take a person like Stephen Paddock for instance, he had a clean record, not even so much as slight concern from his friends and family that he would commit such a crime, and he still inexplicably decided to gun down dozens.

I agree, you cannot prevent someone who really wants to kill people, but I think you can reduce the number of mass shootings. The fact that it happens especially in the US, and that it happens more often since the 1990s is due to some factors, so I guess if we identify these factors, more effective measures could be taken. If people and the government really want to take these measures though.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I see your point of view munchkinphone and I agree with you I guess I just took stupid the wrong way.  I’m kind of in a mood today LOL I apologize.

Which is why I still sometimes really wonder exactly what was in the basement tapes. Because there’s already so much evidence and interviews showing that Eric and Dylan were smart but then there’s other people who who saw the BT who say Eric and Dylan sounded very charismatic and smart and funny. But a lot of that stuff already released Shows a lot of creativity and even sometimes kindness on top of all the vitriol and hate that they spewed.. So no ones  explaination  of why they were never released makes sense to me.

The leak surely didn't sound charismatic and smart and funny. Maybe they could just censor all the cute stuff like the candy house thing, haha that would be funny

Start bleeping all words that indicate they had an IQ above average. lol

munchkinphone wrote:

However what is the other option? Of course society must admit that they are somehow worse or inferior to regular people because otherwise they would normalize their behaviour.

We should I believe stick to the truth, even if its fails to fit in a simple on-liner explanation. Some of these people are fist and foremost depressed suicidal maniacs, the murder part is barely an addition to the suicide. The reasons behind their depression can vary - from mental disorders, to being abused as a kid, being thrown out of society. The Jeff Weises and the Kimveer Gills.

Then we have the psychotic killers, people who would be simply called "crazy" by the common meaning of the term. People who hear voices or see things whicha r enot there. The Lanza's and Kip Kinkels.

Then we have those whose primary motivation is to cause pain and exert their own domination over others. The shooting is to them, to use a military term, a "projection of force". Or a protest, a grand gesture of insubordination and opposition to some sort of status quo they grown to hate.

To top it all, you could find some shooters who express more than one of these types.

munchkinphone wrote:

Maybe they should instead of calling them losers call them victims of poor mental health or something but then again wouldn't that just make people with poor mental health relate to them and be more likely to take inspiration from what they did?

We all know the copycat effect is a very real danger with these types of killers. I think the worst part is that desperate people can talk themselves into believeing that the killers are just like them. Even if that is entirely not the case. They need some sort of "antihero" to relate to, that they make the killers to be someone who they certainly were not.
I think a lot of news reporters did the US a great disservice when they misreported Eric&Dylan as outcast bullied goths. This in turn made thousands of real goths and outcasts relate to them, which created publicity, which then went to inspire future shooters.

munchkinphone wrote:

The best thing to do is probably to not label them as anything that can relate to anyone, to basically demonize them to the general public so that.. less intelligent people don't take inspiration from them.

Its not that easy. Timothy McVeigh was widely demonized and yet Eric went on to relate to him and be inspired by his bombing.

Well the truth is like [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] said that sometimes it is inevitable and sometimes it is preventable however that's not a truth I'd like to share with a depressed and confused teenager who might then fall from the latter category to the first one.

munchkinphone wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I see your point of view munchkinphone and I agree with you I guess I just took stupid the wrong way.  I’m kind of in a mood today LOL I apologize.

Which is why I still sometimes really wonder exactly what was in the basement tapes. Because there’s already so much evidence and interviews showing that Eric and Dylan were smart but then there’s other people who who saw the BT who say Eric and Dylan sounded very charismatic and smart and funny. But a lot of that stuff already released Shows a lot of creativity and even sometimes kindness on top of all the vitriol and hate that they spewed.. So no ones  explaination  of why they were never released makes sense to me.

The leak surely didn't sound charismatic and smart and funny. Maybe they could just censor all the cute stuff like the candy house thing, haha that would be funny

Start bleeping all words that indicate they had an IQ above average. lol

Lol You're onto something.

Though I’m sorry no basement tapes if it doesn’t have the candy house thing. I need to see the candy house thing. It’s imperative to my research. As much as the Jewish thing is too

They were not goth outcasts. But they were outcast in a sense and and got bullied. Just because you have friends or don’t have friends doesn’t mean you’re not getting bullied or you’re not taking certain things to heart. One persons definition of bullying is different than another’s.

munchkinphone wrote:

The best thing to do is probably to not label them as anything that can relate to anyone, to basically demonize them to the general public so that.. less intelligent people don't take inspiration from them.

I don't really think "demonization" would help much; most people (including "less intelligent" people) don't want to shoot places up in the first place and the news media portraying mass shooters as three dimensional human beings instead of inhuman monsters isn't going to change that. As for those who do want to shoot places up, calling mass shooters "evil"  or "monstrous" isn't going to magically make them normal, well adjusted human beings. In fact, it might even encourage them; grandiose terms like "evil" and "monster" can feed into a shooter/would be shooters desire to be portrayed as a tough or badass figure.

STK wrote:

munchkinphone wrote:

The best thing to do is probably to not label them as anything that can relate to anyone, to basically demonize them to the general public so that.. less intelligent people don't take inspiration from them.

I don't really think "demonization" would help much; most people (including "less intelligent" people) don't want to shoot places up in the first place and the news media portraying mass shooters as three dimensional human beings instead of inhuman monsters isn't going to change that. As for those who do want to shoot places up, calling mass shooters "evil"  or "monstrous" isn't going to magically make them normal, well adjusted human beings. In fact, it might even encourage them; grandiose terms like "evil" and "monster" can feed into a shooter/would be shooters desire to be portrayed as a tough or badass figure.

I disagree slightly with your first point and agree totally with the other one.

I think portraying mass shooters as three dimensional human beings isn't going to change that most people (including "less intelligent" people) don't want to shoot up places... however... If a teenager is confused and stupid and he/she turns on the news to hear that "killers have feelings too" it aint really going to help anybody.

I simply find it to be enough that people like us who want to know all about that stuff can look it up for themselves as any smart enough individual should be able to do.

Sabratha wrote:

I think the worst part is that desperate people can talk themselves into believeing that the killers are just like them. Even if that is entirely not the case. They need some sort of "antihero" to relate to, that they make the killers to be someone who they certainly were not. 

It makes me think of Randy's blatant worship of Eric and Dylan, where if they had ever met E&D would almost assuredly make fun of Randy.

QuestionMark wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

I think the worst part is that desperate people can talk themselves into believeing that the killers are just like them. Even if that is entirely not the case. They need some sort of "antihero" to relate to, that they make the killers to be someone who they certainly were not. 

It makes me think of Randy's blatant worship of Eric and Dylan, where if they had ever met E&D would almost assuredly make fun of Randy.

Or Cho. I think they would bully and push him around far more than most people he met in his life.

I do sometimes wonder if Randy’s goes girlfriend was modeled after Dylan‘s halcyon girl. The idea of it that is.

Yet Dylan comes across to some as a romantic antihero who had this grandiose vision of love and Randy comes across as pathetic.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I do sometimes wonder if Randy’s goes girlfriend was modeled after Dylan‘s halcyon girl. The  idea of it that is.

Yet Dylan comes across to some as a romantic antihero who had this grandiose vision of love and Randy comes across as pathetic.

I can't say I know much about Randy, never watched his channel and we were never really active on the forums at the same time. But looking up his goodbye videos, I do think there was something he and Dylan had in common. Depression, yes, but something more as well.

Sabratha wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I do sometimes wonder if Randy’s goes girlfriend was modeled after Dylan‘s halcyon girl. The  idea of it that is.

Yet Dylan comes across to some as a romantic antihero who had this grandiose vision of love and Randy comes across as pathetic.

I can't say I know much about Randy, never watched his channel and we were never really active on the forums at the same time. But looking up his goodbye videos, I do think there was something he and Dylan had in common. Depression, yes, but something more as well.

Yeah I’ve always thought that too. I initially heard about Randy a little more from this one YouTube channel I was watching and then he was covered in sword and scale the podcast. I don’t think I joined the board until August of last year. So I never spoke to him.

I personally find it interesting to look at the similarities between the people that commit these mass murders but also look at why we look at the similarities differently. Like on how I Met your mother when Marshall talks about the Dahmer Dobbler theory.


I might be in my own little bubble but I feel like eric and Dylan are looked at very differently than those who cane after. I mean I even look at them different and I try to figure out my own mind when it comes to that

I've been on these forums (well, on the previous incarnation ran by Danny Ledonne) back in 2007 when Virginia Tech happened. He might not have known that I existed - although if he was obsessing over Columbine or Newtown, then I cannot rule out the possibility of him seeing my film. But I was not very active last year on the foruims and I never spoke to him either.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I might be in my own little bubble but I feel like eric and Dylan are looked at very differently than those who cane after. I mean I even look at them different and I try to figure out my own mind when it comes to that

This is a valid point. To some extent I believe the media are to blame for first misrepresenting them and overblowing the bullying-outcast part, and then putting them on the cover to TIME etc.

But I think there is also some mystique caused by the basement tapes not being released and people obsesing over that. At the same time, a lot of people also related to what they wrote in their diaries.

I can't be sure of course, but I often feel that if they released the basement tapes to the public, but kept the diaries locked down, then E&D would be far less overhyped and far more often looked at as slighly clownish and bufoons.

Sabratha wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I might be in my own little bubble but I feel like eric and Dylan are looked at very differently than those who cane after. I mean I even look at them different and I try to figure out my own mind when it comes to that

This is a valid point. To some extent I believe the media are to blame for first misrepresenting them and overblowing the bullying-outcast part, and then putting them on the cover to TIME etc.

But I think there is also some mystique caused by the basement tapes not being released and people obsesing over that. At the same time, a lot of people also related to what they wrote in their diaries.

I can't be sure of course, but I often feel that if they released the basement tapes to the public, but kept the diaries locked down, then E&D would be far less overhyped and far more often looked at as slighly clownish and bufoons.

I can see that. That’s an interesting thing to think about if only the basement tapes were released a nothing else. We would only have that information we wouldn’t have the journals or the student videos or anything like that.

It was very tone deaf the time magazine to put those two full colored photos of Eric and Dylan and the cover looking quite handsome but little bitty pictures black-and-white of the people they killed



I know at 17 I bought into the outcast and severely bull story. I do however believe there was bullying at Columbine and I do believe that there were instances that happen with them where they were, but I no longer think that that is the narrative and the full story. And I’m glad that I looked more into it and I have a more well-rounded picture of possibly why it happened :-)

TheOne99 wrote:

Im also pissed off with the articles that call shooters cowards. especially The Trench Reynolds fuck i cant stand that guy. 

Yeah, when I was doing research on Kimveer Gill (because Kimveer Gill commented on his website, correct me if I'm wrong), It was annoying how he was discussing killers calling them "psycho" and "cowards". I remember Trench calling eric and Dylan psychos saying "Kimveer Gill, as you might expect, didn’t just start aping the style and mannerisms of past psychos like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.", I laughed and I was like "yeah, this guy's a fucking moron". I wouldn't be surprised if Trench enjoyed and retrieved information about Columbine from Cullenbine.  

Trench's discussions remind me of those who comment the same shit whenever a mass shooting happens and someone makes a video about it or whenever humans post comments on a video a mass killer uploaded.

Despite not enjoying Trench's discussions, I'm glad Trench archived Kimveer's posts on Gill was here.