Cafeteria Bombs

Why didn't the cafeteria bombs go off? I heared that they weren't made well and many of their pipeboms didn't blew up as well and is it true that Eric used a Zippo lighter during the massacre and if so could you please send a pictue of it. Thank you in advance.

Kind Regards
toggafsyk

You are correct they were not made well. Eric took shortcuts and didn't do any testing to his bombs. I have heard that the way it was made with the propane would not have caused the destruction they were hoping for and that the fire system would have put the fire out before the bomb could have exploded. I am not sure on that last fact however

Pretty much a forbidden question to have an answer for obvious reasons; an answer would tell you how to make bombs to kill hundreds. There have been several reasons given, but the canonical one from investigators is "faulty wiring". Whatever they did, it did not complete the circuit.

If I can offer another angle to provide an answer: Because Dylan was the lazy one and he was the bomb tech.

Yes, Eric bought the propane and wanted to get into demolition, but guns seem more his thing. Dylan seems more technically savvy. Also, I think what clues there are from the day of the massacre suggest Dylan was the bomb tech, and, as far as I am aware, Eric did not build bombs alone, even going back to making pipe bombs in 97. Both of them are working on the fake bomb in Radioactive Clothing. Even Lizpuff, respectfully, says "Eric took shortcuts". Um, what about Dylan? That seems to me to take for granted too much of the usual "Eric the mastermind" narrative.

Dylan, not Eric, was the sound engineer
Dylan, not Eric, built his computer
Dylan, not Eric, checks on the bombs from outside.
Dylan, not Eric, goes right up to the bombs on the cafeteria footage.
Dylan, not Eric, came up with the idea of the massacre first; and its most prominent feature were the bombs.
Dylan, not Eric, had the more complex/bigger car bomb. Several [8] pipe bombs were in it to set it off, while Eric's had one. When Sheriff Stone said one was a genuine car bomb, able to make the gas tank explode (not sure I believe that) he is talking about Dylan's, as I understand.

And the very fact that the bombs failed, seems to be more in line with Dylan's personality than Eric's. If he was "just done" or whatever, that could've affected their construction. Yet the guns worked fine for their purposes, and it seems to me Eric's job was getting the guns. I doubt Dylan would have got a gun otherwise; as I understand he even tried asking his mom to get one.  Eric writes about guns in school, about being a bullet, is more into shooter games. Dylan writes about stabbing people with bombs going off in the distance.

Also, I am convinced (they bloody said it) while they were in the library, they were expecting one of the bombs to go off. Bombs being more Dylans thing, guns more Erics thing, could explain why Eric is on a mission shooting people, while Dylan is cheering and shooting trophy cases and tvs. For some of the time, it feels like Dylan is waiting for something - and the bomb is the easy answer.

As for pipe bombs, yes, most of them did not work. Dylan's mother was even pretty flippant about the pipe bombs, saying the only thing they did was leave black marks on stuff. 21 failed and 14 worked according to investigators. As far as I understand, powder from fireworks was what they used, though I suppose they could have used gunpowder from a bullet/shell, which is probably more effective.  

Not even sure they planned to use them on people. How they're used in Duke Nukem 3D and Eric tossing the cricket at Daniel Steepleton in the library would suggest he did, but they tossed a lot where a distraction is all they would provide. The other use seems to be to try and set off a chain reaction to make the bomb explode, hence they keep tossing them into the cafeteria when it's virtually empty. This would also fit with the knowledge of it coming from video games, along with shooting at it.

And as for the zippo lighter, I imagine pictures from the 2004 evidence exhibit (crazy they did that) are where you would see it.

  

The comment about "faulty wiring" was made by John Stone on camera long before the investigators actually investigated the bombs. That was something he said in an early interview while the scene was still fresh. They omitted every bit of information about the propane bombs from the official reports that were released on purpose. If they explained what happened it would give people a leg up on how to make the bombs.

I investigated this for probably five years and found the answer with long discussions with professionals in various fields, and like someone else said, you can't share the answer without explaining how to make the bombs. That much is very true. One of the cafe bombs actually worked perfectly - the problem is people think they were intended to explode on a timer. That's not how it works.

Also, they did test their bombs.

Interesting about Stone, but otherwise very cryptic if not strange comments. Difficult to believe. If it didn't work on a timer, why did they have clocks? Why write the times when the cafeteria is full? That doesn't really make sense to say they were for show. And how did one of them work perfectly when neither exploded (the gas can attached to the tank was lit on the last one; the bomb itself was unaffected)?

Also, how do you explain the clock set for the 35th minute on the second bomb (as in my avatar), and them stopping shooting at 11:35, after saying the library was about to explode? And saying Evan was going to live, when before they said everybody was going to die; when before John had to run or else die in the explosion? The second bomb failing to go off at 11:35 explains that just fine.

Before it was suggested by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that the clock was 2 hours slow, I thought they must have thought the bombs would have gone off even without the timer, because "both bombs failed at 11:17" doesn't make sense given they said at least one would explode while they were in the library, not to mention the absurdity of shooting from the parking lot. However, the second bomb set for 11:35 makes too much sense. Even Dylan said it would last 15 minutes, which fits exactly with 11:35.

The picture, when they stopped shooting, something changing after John left but before talking to Evan, and the 15 minute comment; seems like four serious blows with which to contend for some other theory. Could add that they left to try and make the bomb explode as well.

The CNN cd does mention one of the diversions using motion detection, but that would seem to be foolish for the cafeteria.

People like Cullen like to make it so dramatic, saying things like “just one wire was wired wrong, and if not for that faulty wire, the bombs would have exploded and killed all 500 people instantly.” Give me a break

The timers were not for show. Those kind of bombs just aren't designed to work the way most people think they are. You don't get an immediate tank explosion.

The gas can exploding into flames is exactly how it was supposed to work. That was stage 1. The sprinklers put out the fire before the rest of the process could happen. I won't say more about that part.

Using clock timers for detonating something doesn't work based on the actual time - they work in intervals of 60 minutes and no more. You can't set the kind of timer they used for more than 60 minutes in the future. So the clock couldn't have been "set for 11:35" - it could only have been set to detonate within a 60-minute time frame.

What happened is somebody concluded that the bombs would have exploded at 11:35 by calculating the time they would have gone off according to the time investigators believed they placed the bombs in the cafeteria, which we now know was incorrect thanks to the person who found them on the cafeteria tape.

So to recap - the timers were not set for 11:35. That would be impossible. The timers were set to "go off" in a certain amount of minutes (60 or under). If the timer really was found set to the 35 minute mark, and they placed the bombs in the cafeteria at 11am, then the bombs would have been "set to go off at 11:35" but not because the timer was set for a specific time of day. The timer being at the 35 minute mark would mean they were giving the bombs 35 minutes to detonate as of the time they placed them in the cafeteria.

Another note on the picture of the clock - you'd have to know how timers work with detonation to understand that the hands of the clock are not what determines when it detonates. It's the alarm hand that matters. You only have the ability to set it to detonate 60 minutes into the future, no more than that. You can set the clock at any time you want, and where you put those minute and hour hands doesn't make a difference.

The cops routinely make up stories to tell the public about explosives. After my research in-depth I saw it happening in virtually every case that involved explosives. They really do it to keep people from learning how to make bombs. I used to get upset because I knew they were lying but then I realized the lies are intentional to protect people and I get it. It makes sense.

One of the experts I was learning from was an explosives engineer and it was eye-opening to say the least.

EthanEmerson wrote:

The timers were not for show. Those kind of bombs just aren't designed to work the way most people think they are. You don't get an immediate tank explosion.

The gas can exploding into flames is exactly how it was supposed to work. That was stage 1. The sprinklers put out the fire before the rest of the process could happen. I won't say more about that part.

Using clock timers for detonating something doesn't work based on the actual time - they work in intervals of 60 minutes and no more. You can't set the kind of timer they used for more than 60 minutes in the future. So the clock couldn't have been "set for 11:35" - it could only have been set to detonate within a 60-minute time frame.

What happened is somebody concluded that the bombs would have exploded at 11:35 by calculating the time they would have gone off according to the time investigators believed they placed the bombs in the cafeteria, which we now know was incorrect thanks to the person who found them on the cafeteria tape.

So to recap - the timers were not set for 11:35. That would be impossible. The timers were set to "go off" in a certain amount of minutes (60 or under). If the timer really was found set to the 35 minute mark, and they placed the bombs in the cafeteria at 11am, then the bombs would have been "set to go off at 11:35" but not because the timer was set for a specific time of day. The timer being at the 35 minute mark would mean they were giving the bombs 35 minutes to detonate as of the time they placed them in the cafeteria.

Another note on the picture of the clock - you'd have to know how timers work with detonation to understand that the hands of the clock are not what determines when it detonates. It's the alarm hand that matters. You only have the ability to set it to detonate 60 minutes into the future, no more than that. You can set the clock at any time you want, and where you put those minute and hour hands doesn't make a difference.

Ah, fair enough on the gas can. No investigator says the second bomb was set for 11:35 - I say that, and I gave the four reasons why. Nothing to do with when they were placed. The investigators say they were both set for 11:17 and they planned to shoot from the parking lot. I agree that's a lie to deter copycats. The 1st was 11:20, the 2nd was 11:35. Hence they begin firing at 11:19 and stop at 11:35. Hence Dylan's 15 minute comment, and all the rest cited above.

It took me a few times reading it to not misunderstand, for your last point at least to my pea brain seems to contradict the rest of the post; but the rest of the post seems to say the minute hand is what matters, not the hour hand. As you can't set it for more than 60 minutes in the future, the hours hand is irrelevant. That fits with the picture and the above referenced facts as well.

Though, it's curious how the one picture of a clock for the car bombs has it set for noon, and on this picture that just means 0 time for a detonation.

  

Given the drawing with stars by the pillars and their comments in the library, it seems they thought just one could drop the library, which if true would have done a lot. Also find it hard to reconcile that they knew it wouldn't explode immediately with their behavior in the library.

Well hang on a minute. I didn't say investigators lied about the time the clocks being set to 11:17 to deter copycats. I'm just saying in general, they do not release info about why bombs didn't work. So John Stone's comments were premature, but they may have been intentional.

It seems investigators reported the 11:17 time because that's what was written in their journals.

To clarify, neither the minute hand nor the hour hand matters on the timer - it's the alarm hand.
If you want to get technical then yes the minute hand matters because that has to match the alarm hand for it to work, but since you don't have to set the clock to read the correct time - the minute hand doesn't matter in that sense.

For example, Eric could have walked into the cafeteria at 11am, set his alarm clock to read 9:45, and then set the alarm hand at the 50 minute mark and that would give him 5 minutes before detonation.

Another example, Eric could have walked into the cafeteria at 11am, set his alarm clock to read 4:37, and then set the alarm hand at the 40 minute mark and that would give him 3 minutes before detonation.

Another example, Eric could have walked into the cafeteria at 11am, set his alarm clock to read 6:12, and then set the alarm hand at the 55 minute mark and that would give him 43 minutes before detonation.

In other words, it doesn't matter what time he set the clock to read - he didn't need to set the clock to the actual time.

So yeah, I see what you're saying about the second bomb being set for 11:35 - if they brought the bombs into the cafeteria at 11am, which is what I believe I remember is the correct time according to the cafeteria footage that shows them bringing the bags in one at a time, then they could have easily set the hour hand at 9 and the minute hand at 35 and the alarm hand at 35 to go off in what would be 35 minutes (11:35).

I don't have a high res copy of that image to see where the alarm hand is. But if the alarm went off, then it would be frozen at the time it went off!

Yeah I actually talked to an expert (it was not easy getting people to talk, I was hung up on and ignored and rejected so many times, understandably they didn't know who I was or why I was asking for information) and he told me it's highly unlikely that the explosion from two propane canisters of that size would have done more than scorch the cafe roof/library floor.

He said the projectiles would have traveled outward, and a big fire would have gone upward, but a fire would not have collapsed the second floor like they want us to believe. He said structural damage was unlikely beyond minor damage. You're talking less than 10 gallons of propane total in those two tanks, which don't get filled to capacity anyway.

Oh they knew it wouldn't explode immediately. They tested their propane bombs prior. The more likely scenario is they were used to using smaller canisters for testing and didn't realize the big 20lb tanks would take longer.

  

Fair enough. I'm not even sure they are wrong about that as deliberate lie to deter copycats either, but I lean towards that being the reason, and so I am aware that cops routinely make up stories when explosives are involved. That's all I meant to say. I should not have put words in your mouth.

And yes, it was written in their journals and on one timeline. But there's also the story that they were going to shoot from the parking lot as the "plan A' which was abandoned "when the bombs failed at 11:17", which simply didn't happen. Those go together. I think it's either:

1) Dylan's conflicting timelines. One says shoot from the cars; the other says wait on the hill. Maybe they just thought the former was right since it was written in Eric's journal.

2) Lazy incompetence, just looking at the cars and saying that's a nice place to shoot from

3) To make Dave a martyr after they let him die, as if they didn't know people could run up the cafeteria stairs from the outset.

4) Lying to deter copycats.

Option 4) seems the most forgivable.

The initial claim that the clock was 2 hours slow seems virtually identical to the claim that the clock didn't have to read the correct time.

  

I'm not sure anyone has pin pointed that but due to the spread of the fire horizontally it looks like a molotov cocktail. Of course, I could be wrong.

Supposedly, only 2 molotov cocktails worked, meaning the one Dylan threw on the cafeteria CCTV and the one before the suicides. That does leave curiosities like the fire in the storage closet, but maybe that was just matches or something. But I can see why that one is curious indeed. The initial "bang" makes you think it's a cricket or pipe bomb, but the fire makes you think molotov. Could it be, say, the igniter from a model rocket? As I recall the "wanton violence" report mentions those.

It could be! They used them. It's one heck of a mystery to me.

I am curious how long you think they expected it to take. It seems queer they would not expect it to explode pretty quickly when it was on a timer. It seems to defeat the purpose of a timer to say otherwise (I had this exact problem before QuestionMark set me straight). You would set it ten minutes early if it would take ten minutes to go off, say. But they didn't seem to do that. In fact, they leave the library at 11:36, and the bits cited above suggest they set it for and expected it to go off at 11:35, killing themselves and everybody in the library.

I think the curiosity of shooting people in the library when everybody is going to die anyway is explained by hoping cops would come in and also be part of the casualties (they may have realized this and stayed outside). None of that really suggests they thought it would take, say, five minutes after the timer to finally go off.  I guess you could say they expected it to go off after leaving the library, but I don't think that can be sustained. The evidence cited above suggests otherwise. They stopped shooting and told Evan he was going to live and left to make it explode because it failed to go off at 11:35. They did take a little while to get to the bombs, starting a fire in the closet etc, but I think that can be explained otherwise, such as covering their backs, and can also suggest they had given up on killing everyone in the library, which again means they thought it was a dud at 11:35, not that it needed a minute.  That they expected to be inside of the library when the bomb went off and die as well can also be cited as the reason they return there to shoot themselves.

The way Eric runs away and then they roam the halls after the fire they cause may very well suggest he expected it to go off in a minute. That's at least the best evidence I can muster for that view, but it doesn't change what was cited previously. And that itself is a curious action of his, given shortly before he was shooting at the bomb, and again it would be queer to say he thought he would have time to get away from it. When you shoot barrels in Doom, where he surely got the idea, you don't expect it to take a minute, you expect it to explode. The same can be said for tossing bombs into the cafeteria.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], PM me when you get a chance

Um..I don't think you allow PMs fren.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - You sent me your PM. Using the contact button at the bottom of the page sends PMs to me.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
oh whoops! I had messages enabled before and I must have turned them off at some point. No wonder i couldn't message anyone.

Yes I noticed that afterwards Jenn, pardon me! Glad there were no compromising photos.

Ha!