How badly were Eric and Dylan really bullied?

Guest

It seems to me that they weren't even bullied that badly or on a daily basis. I know of some kids who were bullied constantly, had no friends and were picked on all day long every single day. These 2 had friends, had a lot of friends actually. Dylan seemed to bully more than he got bullied. So how badly were these two really bullied? And why do I think this bullying nonsense is just an excuse? I mean sure, every one is bullied at some point but were they really bullied bad enough to try and blow up the whole school?

Opinions, please.

You will find some very interesting posts concerning this topic on another forum. To start, this thread from 2005.

I think that not all the anger of Dylan and Eric came from being bullied, probably it started with that but in the end they were not just angry for the bullying, but for the society and system in general. I know someone who didnt received so much bullying in the school and dislike people anyway, because in the end bullying is not only call someone "ugly" or "fat". They could have friends but they were outcasts, is posible that many people rejected them or just didnt include them and that for a teenager is really hard and when they bullied someone they were just trying to defend themselves or showed that they were "strong" or that anything affected them. Nobody become a murderer because they want to, there is always something that make them killers and the society make big part of that, is the same with the people that is really antisocial but dont kill anyone.

_________________
The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent; but if we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death — however mutable man may be able to make them — our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfillment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light

I think the bullying factor tends to get exaggerated by people, but some of the things I've read really horrified me. Like Dylan, for example, was made fun of in gym and apparently nobody liked him there - just thinking about going to this class with 200 people sets off my anxiety.
Also the things Brooks wrote about in his book, like bowling WITH freshmen, were shocking.
I can't imagine going through what they went through on and the toll it has on your self-esteem. Maybe for me it's more shocking cause in our school there was really no bullying after the age of approx 15. People matured a bit and the teasing was generally good-hearted.

maninthebox wrote:: I think the bullying factor tends to get exaggerated by people, but some of the things I've read really horrified me. Like Dylan, for example, was made fun of in gym and apparently nobody liked him there - just thinking about going to this class with 200 people sets off my anxiety.
Also the things Brooks wrote about in his book, like bowling WITH freshmen, were shocking.
I can't imagine going through what they went through on and the toll it has on your self-esteem. Maybe for me it's more shocking cause in our school there was really no bullying after the age of approx 15. People matured a bit and the teasing was generally good-hearted.

Totally agree. The getting shoved in lockers, getting glass bottles thrown at your feet, getting ketchup packets thrown at/on you everyday for 4 years sounds like a living hell. I can't even remember the last time I saw someone being bullied at my school for the years I've attended.

maninthebox wrote:: I think the bullying factor tends to get exaggerated by people, but some of the things I've read really horrified me. Like Dylan, for example, was made fun of in gym and apparently nobody liked him there - just thinking about going to this class with 200 people sets off my anxiety.
Also the things Brooks wrote about in his book, like bowling WITH freshmen, were shocking.
I can't imagine going through what they went through on and the toll it has on your self-esteem. Maybe for me it's more shocking cause in our school there was really no bullying after the age of approx 15. People matured a bit and the teasing was generally good-hearted.

I've never read Brook's book, what did it say about bowling with Freshmen?

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Jenn wrote:

maninthebox wrote:: I think the bullying factor tends to get exaggerated by people, but some of the things I've read really horrified me. Like Dylan, for example, was made fun of in gym and apparently nobody liked him there - just thinking about going to this class with 200 people sets off my anxiety.
Also the things Brooks wrote about in his book, like bowling WITH freshmen, were shocking.
I can't imagine going through what they went through on and the toll it has on your self-esteem. Maybe for me it's more shocking cause in our school there was really no bullying after the age of approx 15. People matured a bit and the teasing was generally good-hearted.

I've never read Brook's book, what did it say about bowling with Freshmen?

It's from the chapter about their freshman year
"Seniors at C. would do things like pour baby oil on the floor, then literally "go bowling" with freshmen; they would throw the kid across the floor, and since he couldn't stop, he'd crash right into other kids while the jocks pointed and giggled. The administration finally put a stop to it after a freshman girl slipped and broke her arm".
From the same chapter, equally horrible
"One guy, a wrestler who everyone knew to avoid, liked to make kids get down on the ground and push pennies along the floor with their noses"

Joe protected me from said wrestler my freshman year. I know this because that's the exact thing he said he protected me from having to do.

Yumeko-chan wrote:: Joe protected me from said wrestler my freshman year. I know this because that's the exact thing he said he protected me from having to do.

He'd make girls do that too?? It's terrible

Guest

This question gets asked a lot and I think the answer is that the bullying at Columbine is even worse than anyone likes to believe. The preponderance of evidence suggests to me that both boys were bullied pretty much constantly at Columbine and Dylan's ostracization and experiences with being bullied started in daycare. I think bullying was rampant at Columbine before and after Eric and Dylan's tenure there and I think bullying is a part of American society in general. So, my answer to this question is: the boys were bullied extensively and that bullying played a pivotal role in creating NBK.

On a related note, I don't think there is ever anything good about bullying as in it "builds character" nor do I buy into the notion that fighting back against bullies solves your problems and "makes a man" out of someone. That is a load of B.S. Bullying is an act that is on par with child abuse, rape, animal torture and spousal abuse. There is no excuse for it, nothing potentially positive in it, and it is an outgrowth of weakness, ignorance, and stupidity.

I don't condone picking up a sawed-off shotgun or a pipe-bomb to kill a bully or get revenge on society, but as someone who tried to stand up and protect others from bullying throughout much of my school career (when I wasn't caving to peer pressure and bullying kids myself) I can sure understand it when a bullying victim snaps and starts looking to lash out at someone.

Here are few articles to get started on to see how far the bullying went. These are just scratching the surface:

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Some choice quotes:

"Bullying was a problem at Columbine High School shortly before the worst school shootings in the nation's history, despite administrators' denials of harassment there, according to a report released Friday.

Regina Huerter, an investigator with the Denver district attorney's office, said students and teachers had reported numerous cases of harassment.

In August, Columbine principal Frank DeAngelis said the school had been a safe and welcoming place before the shootings.

"What is not in doubt is that bullying occurred at Columbine, that in some instances the school administration reacted appropriately, and in other instances the school administration's reaction is unclear or altogether unknown," Huerter said."

***

"Harris's and Klebold's rage began with the injustices of jocks. The pair knew of instances where athletes convicted of crimes went without suspension from games or expulsion from school. They witnessed instances of athletes tormenting others while school authorities looked the other way. They believed that high-profile athletes could finagle their way out of jail.

In one episode, they saw state wrestling champion Rocky Wayne Hoffschneider shoving his girlfriend into a locker, in front of a teacher, who did nothing, according to a close friend. "We used to talk about Rocky a lot," said the friend, who asked not to be identified. "We'd say things like 'He should be in jail for the stuff he does.' " Another friend of Klebold's, Andrew Beard, remembers distinctly Klebold's rage at four football players' "getting off" after destroying a man's apartment last year."

***

"Bullying at Columbine High was rampant, witnesses testified Monday, and victims' parents were shocked that the principal has said there were no danger signs leading to the shooting."

***

"I present to you the swine of swine, former Columbine wrestling champion Rocky Wayne Hoffschneider. Harris and Klebold's hatred of Hoffschneider was obsessive - indeed most kids there hated him. But he was popular and a state champion. Which meant that when, for example, he shoved his girlfriend into a locker right in front of a teacher, the teacher looked away and let it slide. He also tormented a Jewish student, singing pro-Hitler songs and yelling out "another Jew in the oven!" every time the student scored a basket during PE. He pinned the kid to the ground and gave him "twisters," bruising his body. And then he started threatening to burn the kid alive. The student's father complained, to no avail - the PE teacher was also Hoffschneider's wrestling coach. Eventually the Jewish kid transferred to another school, the parents blaming the administration for shielding their star jock, while Hoffschneider continued bullying his way up the social ladder."

Guest

I think they just got verbally bullied all the time along with many other people at chs, but I don't think they got their asses kicked all the time. They were ignored, I believe.

Guest

Dextromethorphan wrote:: I think they just got verbally bullied all the time along with many other people at chs, but I don't think they got their asses kicked all the time. They were ignored, I believe.

The bullying was physical at times and included having bottles thrown at them, being shoved against lockers, etc.

Guest

gustopoet wrote:

Dextromethorphan wrote:: I think they just got verbally bullied all the time along with many other people at chs, but I don't think they got their asses kicked all the time. They were ignored, I believe.

The bullying was physical at times and included having bottles thrown at them, being shoved against lockers, etc.

Did that happen to them specificly? Or was that just stories floating around about the culture at CHS? I've never seen concrete evidence they were physically bullied. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, I just don't think we can prove what actually happened. I don't see Dylan being physically bullied, maybe Eric more because he was smaller. I'm on the fence about it. I think being verbally abused as a senior really pissed them off.

Guest

Quote :: Did that happen to them specificly? Or was that just stories floating around about the culture at CHS? I've never seen concrete evidence they were physically bullied. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, I just don't think we can prove what actually happened. I don't see Dylan being physically bullied, maybe Eric more because he was smaller. I'm on the fence about it. I think being verbally abused as a senior really pissed them off.

Here is a part from Brooks Brown book:
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Something that Marjorie Lindholm had said:
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Some quotes of the co-manager of Black Jack Pizza where Eric and Dylan worked:

“The “jocks” did indeed torment those two…on more occasions then most anybody knew or would admit. They threw rocks and bottles at them etc. Aside from the mental and emotional abuse as well.”

“Anyways, they didn’t mention ketchup and tampons specifically, they were repeatedly hurt and upset by things at school, But whenever I tried to inquire, they would clam up and refer to them as “faggots”, which is what they pretty much called everything they didnt like. I do know this though, one day they both came to work out of breath and upset. I asked why. They said that a bunch of jocks were throwing rocks and bottles at them. We ran out back to nobody there. This happened more than once.”

"Yes, they were bullied relentlessly."

"Lol…seriously?!?! This guy said they were never bullied?!?! Ha! Then he is a hack, and only interested in making a buck! I was there! I saw the anguish they went through pretty much daily. I tried to stick up for them! We went to chase the "faggot jocks" a couple times."

"As for chasing the jocks away, it was like I said. They were all pissed and winded one day and came running into the store. Asked what was wrong, to which they replied "nothing, just some faggots". Of course i prodded further, and said what about these "faggots"? They replied "some faggots are fucking with us" Of course now I was curious, and being the smart ass I am, I teased them to lighten em up a bit and tell me what was going on. I said "so a bunch of faggots are picking on ya and your all upset?". They said "some faggot jocks were throwing rocks and bottles at us". I said "where?? Out back here??" reb said "just now out back." I said "let’s go get em!" we ran out back and looked around, but no one was there."
Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

From reddit:
"What I remember about Klebold. He was tall, like 6’4 and he dressed really weird. combat boots, sunglasses, kmfdm shirts. I remember not knowing what kmfdm was. He was awkward looking, kind of unnattractive I guess. I remember the teacher making him do bear crawls for being late to class constantly. We played this no rules dodge ball game. It was just every man for himself, with like 50 or 60 kids. Him and this really scrawny kid were last and the scrawny kid beat him. for some reason i won’t forget that."
Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Guest

Dextromethorphan wrote:: Did that happen to them specificly? Or was that just stories floating around about the culture at CHS? I've never seen concrete evidence they were physically bullied. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, I just don't think we can prove what actually happened. I don't see Dylan being physically bullied, maybe Eric more because he was smaller. I'm on the fence about it. I think being verbally abused as a senior really pissed them off.

Yes, it did happen to them specifically. Brooks Brown (thanks Lane-A!) notes that jocks threw bottles at them and they said it "happened all the time." Brooks also noted that Eric and Dylan were bullied everyday. Dan Lab punched Eric in the face. I'll grant you that the direct evidence for physical violence against Eric and Dylan on specific days by specific parties, etc is not all that impressive but how much evidence is there for getting shoved against a locker, snapped with a towel, or even punched by the bullies at any school other than what is available in witness testimony? There is overwhelming evidence that physical violence was part of the bullying culture at Columbine as a whole. However, even if this were not the case (and the evidence that we do have indicates that it clearly was the case) verbal and emotional bullying and being ostracized are no better in my opinion.

It's also not quite accurate to suggest that physically large people are not bullied. I've seen really big people, especially tall and gawky or fat and dumpy, bullied many times and Dylan, while tall, was so thin and obviously weak and shy that I don't doubt he was phsyically picked on.

I agree that Dylan may have begun to stand up for himself somewhat and even engaged in fights with bullies prior to NBK, but to suggest this eliminates the potential that he a was routinely physically bullied for years before he did so and after seems to be a stretch. Devon Adams noted that she was pushed up against a locker by a football player merely for talking to Dylan and this happened, ostensibly, while he was looking on. He didn't defend her or stick up for himself. I think Brooks Brown's description of how Eric and Dylan were bullied is probably pretty accurate. In fact, I think it was probably much much worse because he wouldn't have known about all of it. The only two who would have known the full extent of the bullying were Eric and Dylan themselves.

Guest

Lane_A wrote:

Quote :: Did that happen to them specificly? Or was that just stories floating around about the culture at CHS? I've never seen concrete evidence they were physically bullied. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, I just don't think we can prove what actually happened. I don't see Dylan being physically bullied, maybe Eric more because he was smaller. I'm on the fence about it. I think being verbally abused as a senior really pissed them off.

Here is a part from Brooks Brown book:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Something that Marjorie Lindholm had said:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Some quotes of the owner of Black Jack Pizza where Eric and Dylan worked:

“The “jocks” did indeed torment those two…on more occasions then most anybody knew or would admit. They threw rocks and bottles at them etc. Aside from the mental and emotional abuse as well.”

“Anyways, they didn’t mention ketchup and tampons specifically, they were repeatedly hurt and upset by things at school, But whenever I tried to inquire, they would clam up and refer to them as “faggots”, which is what they pretty much called everything they didnt like. I do know this though, one day they both came to work out of breath and upset. I asked why. They said that a bunch of jocks were throwing rocks and bottles at them. We ran out back to nobody there. This happened more than once.”

"Yes, they were bullied relentlessly."

"Lol…seriously?!?! This guy said they were never bullied?!?! Ha! Then he is a hack, and only interested in making a buck! I was there! I saw the anguish they went through pretty much daily. I tried to stick up for them! We went to chase the "faggot jocks" a couple times."

"As for chasing the jocks away, it was like I said. They were all pissed and winded one day and came running into the store. Asked what was wrong, to which they replied "nothing, just some faggots". Of course i prodded further, and said what about these "faggots"? They replied "some faggots are fucking with us" Of course now I was curious, and being the smart ass I am, I teased them to lighten em up a bit and tell me what was going on. I said "so a bunch of faggots are picking on ya and your all upset?". They said "some faggot jocks were throwing rocks and bottles at us". I said "where?? Out back here??" reb said "just now out back." I said "let’s go get em!" we ran out back and looked around, but no one was there."
Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

From reddit:
"What I remember about Klebold. He was tall, like 6’4 and he dressed really weird. combat boots, sunglasses, kmfdm shirts. I remember not knowing what kmfdm was. He was awkward looking, kind of unnattractive I guess. I remember the teacher making him do bear crawls for being late to class constantly. We played this no rules dodge ball game. It was just every man for himself, with like 50 or 60 kids. Him and this really scrawny kid were last and the scrawny kid beat him. for some reason i won’t forget that."
Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Nice to see the account I typed up on Tumblr from Majorie Lindholm. ;) Good instances, Lane_A. Much of the bullying appears to be humiliating and degrading mentally and emotionally and not so much, at least not as many accounts, of the physical variety. Still, just as bad if not worse. According to Dylan's PoV to his parents, Eric was on the receiving end more simply because he was smaller. While Eric got punched in the face by Dan Lab, Dylan dealt with the humiliation of ketchup all over his shirt for the rest of the day at school. Dylan's friend Chad Laughlin caught the tail end of that incident and consoled and helped him clean up in the restroom. Whatever the method, pick your poision, it was enough to warp them and make them stew over it.

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InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:: Dylan dealt with the humiliation of ketchup all over his shirt for the rest of the day at school.

In many cultures throughout human history that incident alone would have been moral and legal justification for murder. In some societies it would be mandatory that a person so humiliated either kill those who humiliated him or kill himself. I'm not saying Dylan's murderous rampage was right or even justified, I'm just pointing out an interesting fact of history. American culture seems to be exceptional in that it expects people to endure this kind of "hazing" as a matter of course. What would be assault and battery if perpetrated by adults is just "bullying" if it's done to kids. The irony being, of course, that it is kids who need more, not less protection, as they are more powerless and vulnerable than adults.

Lane_A wrote:: Some quotes of the owner of Black Jack Pizza where Eric and Dylan worked:

“The “jocks” did indeed torment those two…on more occasions then most anybody knew or would admit. They threw rocks and bottles at them etc. Aside from the mental and emotional abuse as well.”

“Anyways, they didn’t mention ketchup and tampons specifically, they were repeatedly hurt and upset by things at school, But whenever I tried to inquire, they would clam up and refer to them as “faggots”, which is what they pretty much called everything they didnt like. I do know this though, one day they both came to work out of breath and upset. I asked why. They said that a bunch of jocks were throwing rocks and bottles at them. We ran out back to nobody there. This happened more than once.”

"Yes, they were bullied relentlessly."

"Lol…seriously?!?! This guy said they were never bullied?!?! Ha! Then he is a hack, and only interested in making a buck! I was there! I saw the anguish they went through pretty much daily. I tried to stick up for them! We went to chase the "faggot jocks" a couple times."

"As for chasing the jocks away, it was like I said. They were all pissed and winded one day and came running into the store. Asked what was wrong, to which they replied "nothing, just some faggots". Of course i prodded further, and said what about these "faggots"? They replied "some faggots are fucking with us" Of course now I was curious, and being the smart ass I am, I teased them to lighten em up a bit and tell me what was going on. I said "so a bunch of faggots are picking on ya and your all upset?". They said "some faggot jocks were throwing rocks and bottles at us". I said "where?? Out back here??" reb said "just now out back." I said "let’s go get em!" we ran out back and looked around, but no one was there."
Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

These quotes are from their co-manager, Jason, at Black Jack. Chris Lau was the owner. I can't fully explain why or how, because I have no proof, but I have always entirely believed Jason's account in that thread. It just seems entirely sincere to me. It doesn't seem to be someone looking for attention, but rather, a sort of catharsis. I really hope he finds this forum if he wants to talk again. I'd love to hear more of what he has to say.

I have no doubt that these kids, among others, were bullied. However, as has been stated repeatedly, they also bullied others themselves. I do understand that it was like a sort of cyclical thing; where they were left out, treated differently, humiliated, and so on, and then turned around and unleashed a little of their frustration on others to feel powerful for a few seconds.

All of that said, I sincerely do not believe that the actual planning of and then going through with their massacre was based entirely on their revenge due to bullying and feeling alienated from their high school peers. It went WAY beyond that.

While a lot of this could be viewed as mental/emotional devolution, in its own right, their awareness of the culture at large had become quite elevated and accentuated. I feel that they were entirely aware that the nonsensical cliquey politics that were going on in high school (that everyone told them would "end once they graduated") actually don't. They continue on long after high school. You're one lucky bastard if you work somewhere without having to deal with cliques and flagrant political bullshit, despite the robotic, vapid defenses made for such behavior and worthless hierarchical foolishness. They knew it was all a farce and an attempt at pacification when people told them it would be "over" once they "got out of there".

In my opinion, it's quite likely that they could see the way the majority of the adults operated, not only the school faculty, but other adults within their families, friends' parents, at their jobs, and other places where they observed them and/or had to interact with them. Not everyone in the world is horrible, but most people are full of shit, to put it bluntly. They still put on phony performances to save face, still stab each other in the back mercilessly, and you are mocked and shunned even more as an adult if you continue to rebel against this idiocy. I think they saw all of this, and saw no way out, and felt it was pointless to waste time carrying on. Couple this with all of their anger, pain, self hatred, among other diagnosed/improperly diagnosed issues (as well as prescription drug side effects), and it culminated into what we know them for.

I mean, honestly, does this sound like someone who is just "angry about being bullied"?

"The human race sucks. human nature is smuthered out by society, jobs, and work and school. instincts are deleted by laws. I see people say things that contradict themselves, or people that dont take any advantage to the gift of human life. they waste their minds on memorizing the stats of every college basketball player or how many words should be an a report when they should be using their brain on more important things. the human race isnt worth fighting for anymore. WWII was the last war worth fighting and was the last time human life and human brains did any good any made us proud. now, with the government having scandals and conspiracies all over the fucking place and lying to everyone all the time and with worthless pointless mindless discraceful TV shows on (scratched out) and with everyone ub-fucking-sessed with hollywood and beauty and fame and glamour and politics and anything famous, people just arent worth saving. Society may not realize what is happening but I have; you go to school, to get used to studying and learning how youre "supposed to" so that drains or filters out a little bit of human nature. but thats after your parents taught you whats right and wrong even though you may think differently, you still must to have more of your human nature blown out of your ass. society trys to make everyone act the same by burying all human nature and instincts. Thats what school, laws, jobs, and parents do If they realize it or not and them, the few who stick to their natural instincts are casted out as psychos or lunatics or strangers or just plain different. crazy, strange, weird, wild, these words are not bad or degrading.. if humans were let to live how we would naturaly it would be chaos and anarchy and the human race wouldnt probably last that long, but hey guess what, thats how its supposed to be!!!!! society and goverments are only created to have order and calmness, which is exactly the opposite of pure human nature. take away all your laws and morals and just see what you can do. if the goverment was one entity it would be thinking "hey, lets make some order here and calm these crazy fucks down so we can be constructive and fight other goverments in our own little so called self created "civilizied world" and get rid of all those damn insticts everyone has" well shit I'm to tired wright anymor tonight, so until next time, fuck you all. -5/6/98"

I know they were bullied and mistreated, and in turn they did the same to others sometimes. BUT, that was just a tiny portion of what lit the spark, in my opinion.

Guest

Alright thanks for the sources. I believe brooks to some degree, I have read his book, seems like they weren't the only ones having problems at chs. Everyone got teased and such at that school, and they gave it right back. I doubt that's what caused NBK, I'm with you on that.

No, NBK couldn't only became in what it became just for bullying, I think as I said in my first comment, that all their anger had to start with the school culture and all the bullying, but then it was not the only reason, its obvious that they were upset with all the world and society, they had to see a lot of things to came with that conclusion and they did, Eric's journal has a lot of examples, they were unhappy with the system and society for how it works and how it treated them. Something so big like NBK couldn't only been planed for the bullying or rejection even though it started with that and while they got older everything else influenced them too

_________________
The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent; but if we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death — however mutable man may be able to make them — our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfillment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light

After reading Peter Langmanns book I think that bullying has less to do with school shootings than what we like to believe . Not saying that it has nothing to do with it. Just, that the media over emphasizes the aspect of bullying in cases like these. What is difficult here is that people will fokus overwhelmingly on certain things thats been said. When Eric talks about hatred towards the human race because he sees them as inferior. He believed in natural selection, and that the weak should be killed. Also, theres a lot of things about Eric that I think most of us tend to forget: as far as I know, he was someone that oftentimes would threaten and intimidate other students. In that case, we cannot really under estimate that hes own behaviour may have indirectly contributed to people avoiding or ignoring him.

I think it's subjective too.

I trust the people who knew Eric and Dylan the most, so if they said E & D were bullied I believe them.

I know I have said this before but I think because of how Eric and Dylan were feeling in general I think any kind of bullying, harassment, being bothered etc.. would have embarrassed them or made them feel ostracized.

Just has Sue said, Dylan's core personality traits would make any kind of bullying really sting.

Were they shoved into lockers every day, given swirlies and hung up on the flag pole in their underwear, probably not!

Was it one time someone told Eric they didn't like his trench coat.. no... something in between.

We can't say "oh it was just this, so no big deal?"

Well to some people it IS a big deal...

Of course nothing justifies what they did but there are a lot of mitigating circumstances that caused Columbine. Not just one thing. Bullying is not the specific cause for the massacre but it could have been a factor in their rage and anger.

_________________
"And you know, you know, you know, this can be beautiful, you say you're numb inside, but I can't agree. So the world's unfair, keep it locked out there. In here it's beautiful."

Of course bullying is a big deal(It is in many ways).
The problem is that in any discussion about mass shootings and bullying it is oftentimes over simplyfied as a whole. It's hard for people to comprehend that theres no Main reason for a school shooting to take place. Bullying can be extremely harmful, mentally and emotionally. Therefore it makes sense to attribute mass shootings to bullying. It's harder to comprehend that there are other motives behind it. The stereotype of the bullied outcast is easier to relate to. I think we would have seen a lot more of it, if it were thus simple. Think about it. How come that school shootings are more of a problem in the US than in other countries, if bullying was the main cause? How come mmillions of kids and adults get bullied everyday both in the US and abroad, and never decide to pick up a gun? How come some of them were actually bullies, themselves, if this picture is entirely correct?

I think we need to aknowledge that some of these shooters were not simply acting out because they got picked on. For å psychopath, such as Eric, rules simply do not apply. They dont feel responsibility for their actions the way we do. Thats why Eric could break into a van without feeling any guilt or remorse. Yes, bullying is absolutely bad, but theres s broader perspective here.

Dylan is a different because he was depressed. In other words, there are two opposite personalities with Eric and Dylan. Peter Langmann outlines that Eric was a psychopath with sadistic traits. I believe that he places Dylan as severely depressed combined with an element of paranoia.

That is not say that bullying isnt a big deal. But it's to say that the narrative doesnt add up. The subject matter is Slik at too complex to comprehend.

Another thing that puzzles me: why are these shooters overwhelmingly male and so few of them female? You wpilf get the impression that we would have seen more of this stuff all over the world, yet, it strikes me that we actually dont. School shootings are more of an american phenomenon.

I dont deny that school shooters have ever been bullied. Yet it's important for people to aknowledge that some people just dont have the ability to emphasize with others or feel guilt or remorse. These arent the kids that got bullied to a breaking point. These are people that will take pleassure in abusing others. A few of them become school shooters. Thats the really difficult issue with psychopathy. Hard to realize, but true, nevertheless. Another difficult issue is that you cannot characterize a child as a psychopath. Langmann describes that Andrew Golden, one of the two gunmen at Jonesboro elementary school, wnfaged from early on in animal abuse. He believes that Andrew Goldens justification for mass murder was that hes gf turned him and that the teachers would amend rules that he didnt like. Apparently, that was hes rationale for shooting up the school. He draws similar patterns with Eric: He got arrested, plus a host of other things. He had to comply by the rules, and he didnt like that. That was hes ratoonale for attempting to blow up the school.

Atleast according to Langmann. And Langmann doesnt deny that Eric and Dylan were bullied, but he says that some accounts are exaggarated. This is partially because of the media hype. Evan Todd probably never picked on Eric and Dylan. The statement he made may have confused the two gunmen with the TCM. Of course it's not a nice thing to do, what he describes there, but again: Context matters

tfsa47090 wrote:: You will find some very interesting posts concerning this topic on another forum. To start, this thread from 2005.

This conversation will probably go on for ever. A real problem is that people take withness accounts as factual. They may or may not be inaccurate.

So far, my impression is that some of the accounts are inaccurate, some- like the ketchup incident, may be accurate.

Also, we need to clarify what bullying truly is: An imballance of power over a long period of time. Kocky behaviour is cocky behaviour but it's not necessarily bullying. Bullying is oftentimes more destructive in the sense that it's more systematic forms of abuse and power imballance. I say this, as a lot of things tend to get mixed up with bullying, whereas they are not. That is not to say that bullying isnt a severe problem or that cocky behaviour is OK. Im only cocky if I need to stand up for myself. In that case I can justify cocky attitude, but obviously it's not a good idea overall towards people you dont know.

School shooters. info diggs into much of the accounts around bullying of them and other school shooters. Something that helped me get a clearer perspective. So far I can only take a wild guess and say that some accounts were inaccurate, whereas other accounts may be more accurate. Peter Langmann says that there were many troubled students when Eric and Dylan were in junior high school, but they graduated before the shooting.
Also, I know that some experts have pointed out that Eric and Dylan participated in the harassment of other student, aaswell. Im thinking it's possible that some people may have avoided them because of this.

Again, I think that Langmanns in debth explanation can offer up some proper context around bullying at Columbine.

They had their issues with being bullied, but they bullied kids just as much if not more.
The whole bullying issue was overblown by the media and other news outlets.

It seemed like they both took things to heart a little too seriously.
I don't know of anyone who never had at least one person bully them in high-school.
You put a bunch of teenagers together in a small space and there will always be some sort of issues.

People think that there were kids waiting for them at their cars to beat them up day in and day out, which wasn't the case.

Dylan even stated to his parents that he didn't really get bullied, but Eric did.
He could of been gassing himself up to not look weak, but it makes sense as bullies usually go for the smaller easy targets, not kids who are 6'4.

AFIK, Eric only had one issue where another student actually punched him in the face.

The Eric in Columbine video shows Eric walking right through a group of jocks, and while they bump into Eric Vieth, they don't touch Eric.
Of course that isn't end all be all evidence, but I don't see why the bully jocks would let Eric walk right through him with no issues if they had it out for him as bad as some claim.

That being said, I do believe Eric had to deal with more bullying than Dylan.

slippy123 wrote:: They had their issues with being bullied, but they bullied kids just as much if not more.
The whole bullying issue was overblown by the media and other news outlets.

It seemed like they both took things to heart a little too seriously.
I don't know of anyone who never had at least one person bully them in high-school.
You put a bunch of teenagers together in a small space and there will always be some sort of issues.

People think that there were kids waiting for them at their cars to beat them up day in and day out, which wasn't the case.

Dylan even stated to his parents that he didn't really get bullied, but Eric did.
He could of been gassing himself up to not look weak, but it makes sense as bullies usually go for the smaller easy targets, not kids who are 6'4.

AFIK, Eric only had one issue where another student actually punched him in the face.

The Eric in Columbine video shows Eric walking right through a group of jocks, and while they bump into Eric Vieth, they don't touch Eric.
Of course that isn't end all be all evidence, but I don't see why the bully jocks would let Eric walk right through him with no issues if they had it out for him as bad as some claim.

That being said, I do believe Eric had to deal with more bullying than Dylan.

I still think so much is subjective because surely we don't know about every bullying incident. Dylan was embarrassed in gym class a lot, called names, had to do bear crawls in front of everyone. If you take someone like Dylan and do things like that to him, then possibly the ketchup incident, messing with his car, the duster thing in the theatre video, being falsely accused of having drugs in his locker and remember someone shoved Devon against a locker when she was talking to Dylan and called her a "fag lover" all of those things can add up in someones psyche if they already have other things going on...

It is an interesting conversation for sure but unless we were there and saw eric and dylan everyday and really spoke with them, we just don't know.

For me, I was bullied a lot, i did not have a friend in the world BUT years after I graduated I have people from my HS saying I was not bullied and people liked me. I got good grades, i was in theatre.. I know I was bullied, my family knows I was too but do they know the extent of it, no. I didn't talk about it as much. I was also called a bully, but to me I was fighting back.

I know that it is anecdotal but I think memories get skewed and some people want to think just because eric and dylan didn't write in their journals " I am so sad, I am being bullied and I cannot fight back.. I shall cry' that there was never any incidents...

_________________
"And you know, you know, you know, this can be beautiful, you say you're numb inside, but I can't agree. So the world's unfair, keep it locked out there. In here it's beautiful."

Screamingophelia wrote:

slippy123 wrote:: They had their issues with being bullied, but they bullied kids just as much if not more.
The whole bullying issue was overblown by the media and other news outlets.

It seemed like they both took things to heart a little too seriously.
I don't know of anyone who never had at least one person bully them in high-school.
You put a bunch of teenagers together in a small space and there will always be some sort of issues.

People think that there were kids waiting for them at their cars to beat them up day in and day out, which wasn't the case.

Dylan even stated to his parents that he didn't really get bullied, but Eric did.
He could of been gassing himself up to not look weak, but it makes sense as bullies usually go for the smaller easy targets, not kids who are 6'4.

AFIK, Eric only had one issue where another student actually punched him in the face.

The Eric in Columbine video shows Eric walking right through a group of jocks, and while they bump into Eric Vieth, they don't touch Eric.
Of course that isn't end all be all evidence, but I don't see why the bully jocks would let Eric walk right through him with no issues if they had it out for him as bad as some claim.

That being said, I do believe Eric had to deal with more bullying than Dylan.

I still think so much is subjective because surely we don't know about every bullying incident. Dylan was embarrassed in gym class a lot, called names, had to do bear crawls in front of everyone. If you take someone like Dylan and do things like that to him, then possibly the ketchup incident, messing with his car, the duster thing in the theatre video, being falsely accused of having drugs in his locker and remember someone shoved Devon against a locker when she was talking to Dylan and called her a "fag lover" all of those things can add up in someones psyche if they already have other things going on...

It is an interesting conversation for sure but unless we were there and saw eric and dylan everyday and really spoke with them, we just don't know.

For me, I was bullied a lot, i did not have a friend in the world BUT years after I graduated I have people from my HS saying I was not bullied and people liked me. I got good grades, i was in theatre.. I know I was bullied, my family knows I was too but do they know the extent of it, no. I didn't talk about it as much. I was also called a bully, but to me I was fighting back.

I know that it is anecdotal but I think memories get skewed and some people want to think just because eric and dylan didn't write in their journals " I am so sad, I am being bullied and I cannot fight back.. I shall cry' that there was never any incidents...

I do agree that a lot of it is subjective.
By no means am I saying they weren't bullied, because they most definitely were, but certain outlets made it seem like they were tormented losers with no friends, who couldn't go a day without getting beat up, which is overblown.
I have no doubt that they had classes with a select few assholes who couldn't keep their mouths shut, but I also sense that they might of brought a lot of things on themselves too.
Dylan scratching fag into another students locker, and Eric's notes to his friends calling other kids every name in the book are good indicators they dished out a fair amount of bullying themselves.
It's also backed up by a good portion of 11k interviews too.

I'm not downplaying bullying at all, but name calling and psychically laying your hands on people are in my opinion two opposite ends of the spectrum.

I know there was the infamous ketchup incident, but as you stated we're not even sure if it just a food fight Dylan got caught up in, as the story of what happened seems to change all the time.
Devon was indeed shoved, but that seems like an isolated incident, and it wasn't Dylan who was pushed, although he was the subject of the name calling.
I personally don't believe the duster thing was anything more then a light-hearted joke, as the kid dusted off someone else right before Dylan, and he just laughed, although Dylan didn't seem to have a sense of humor about it.
I haven't heard about the drugs in the locker or the bear crawling incidents, but I definitely will look into them, as I'm interested in who made 6'4 Dylan get on his hands and knees.
If you have any links about those incidents feel free to post them!

Of course these are just my opinions on the said situations, as we may never know the complete truth about all of them.

For two kids who hated their school as much as they claimed, they still did a fair amount of school related activities.
Eric even took his nickname from the school mascot which I've always found ironic.

I could be mistaken, but I also don't remember either of them writing that much about being bullied in their journals, although Eric did write about being the weird kid and no one calling him.

I'm sorry you had to deal with ignorant people like that in high-school.
I was very skinny in high-school and had a few issues of bullying myself, which ended up in a handful of fist fights.
After the fights, the bullying pretty much stopped.

The weird thing is, a few of those kids ended up becoming friends of mine years after we graduated.

Peter Langmann does a great Job in explaining here that we shouldnt take every withness accounts at face value. People can have false or distorted memories or they may not be able to understand what bullying actually means or have misread a situation as something else. Me, personally, I dont think anyone is asking to be bullied.

Now, in regards to what Eric may have Said about people avoiding him and so on. Other students at that school recalled Eric as a very aggressive person from what Ive read. In that case, it makes sense

slippy123 wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

slippy123 wrote:: They had their issues with being bullied, but they bullied kids just as much if not more.
The whole bullying issue was overblown by the media and other news outlets.

It seemed like they both took things to heart a little too seriously.
I don't know of anyone who never had at least one person bully them in high-school.
You put a bunch of teenagers together in a small space and there will always be some sort of issues.

People think that there were kids waiting for them at their cars to beat them up day in and day out, which wasn't the case.

Dylan even stated to his parents that he didn't really get bullied, but Eric did.
He could of been gassing himself up to not look weak, but it makes sense as bullies usually go for the smaller easy targets, not kids who are 6'4.

AFIK, Eric only had one issue where another student actually punched him in the face.

The Eric in Columbine video shows Eric walking right through a group of jocks, and while they bump into Eric Vieth, they don't touch Eric.
Of course that isn't end all be all evidence, but I don't see why the bully jocks would let Eric walk right through him with no issues if they had it out for him as bad as some claim.

That being said, I do believe Eric had to deal with more bullying than Dylan.

I still think so much is subjective because surely we don't know about every bullying incident. Dylan was embarrassed in gym class a lot, called names, had to do bear crawls in front of everyone. If you take someone like Dylan and do things like that to him, then possibly the ketchup incident, messing with his car, the duster thing in the theatre video, being falsely accused of having drugs in his locker and remember someone shoved Devon against a locker when she was talking to Dylan and called her a "fag lover" all of those things can add up in someones psyche if they already have other things going on...

It is an interesting conversation for sure but unless we were there and saw eric and dylan everyday and really spoke with them, we just don't know.

For me, I was bullied a lot, i did not have a friend in the world BUT years after I graduated I have people from my HS saying I was not bullied and people liked me. I got good grades, i was in theatre.. I know I was bullied, my family knows I was too but do they know the extent of it, no. I didn't talk about it as much. I was also called a bully, but to me I was fighting back.

I know that it is anecdotal but I think memories get skewed and some people want to think just because eric and dylan didn't write in their journals " I am so sad, I am being bullied and I cannot fight back.. I shall cry' that there was never any incidents...

I do agree that a lot of it is subjective.
By no means am I saying they weren't bullied, because they most definitely were, but certain outlets made it seem like they were tormented losers with no friends, who couldn't go a day without getting beat up, which is overblown.
I have no doubt that they had classes with a select few assholes who couldn't keep their mouths shut, but I also sense that they might of brought a lot of things on themselves too.
Dylan scratching fag into another students locker, and Eric's notes to his friends calling other kids every name in the book are good indicators they dished out a fair amount of bullying themselves.
It's also backed up by a good portion of 11k interviews too.

I'm not downplaying bullying at all, but name calling and psychically laying your hands on people are in my opinion two opposite ends of the spectrum.

I know there was the infamous ketchup incident, but as you stated we're not even sure if it just a food fight Dylan got caught up in, as the story of what happened seems to change all the time.
Devon was indeed shoved, but that seems like an isolated incident, and it wasn't Dylan who was pushed, although he was the subject of the name calling.
I personally don't believe the duster thing was anything more then a light-hearted joke, as the kid dusted off someone else right before Dylan, and he just laughed, although Dylan didn't seem to have a sense of humor about it.
I haven't heard about the drugs in the locker or the bear crawling incidents, but I definitely will look into them, as I'm interested in who made 6'4 Dylan get on his hands and knees.
If you have any links about those incidents feel free to post them!

Of course these are just my opinions on the said situations, as we may never know the complete truth about all of them.

For two kids who hated their school as much as they claimed, they still did a fair amount of school related activities.
Eric even took his nickname from the school mascot which I've always found ironic.

I could be mistaken, but I also don't remember either of them writing that much about being bullied in their journals, although Eric did write about being the weird kid and no one calling him.

I'm sorry you had to deal with ignorant people like that in high-school.
I was very skinny in high-school and had a few issues of bullying myself, which ended up in a handful of fist fights.
After the fights, the bullying pretty much stopped.

The weird thing is, a few of those kids ended up becoming friends of mine years after we graduated.

I think reb was meant to be ironic. I think he was doing it to be contrary not brvsudhbg he loved his school or anything.

I also think someone like Dylan would’ve been very upset seeing Devon shoved. He would’ve taken that as again the jocks or the higher castes being mean to someone he cares about. And It could’ve been another notch on his anger list.

The bear crawling is in the 11 K. And I have to find the link to the drug incident.

I don’t think Dylan got caught up in a food fight because why would he be in the bathroom upset with comforting him. Also why would that be the worst day of his life? Plus I would sue know a couple years later exactly what happened? She Musta heard it from a few people? Who did she hear it from I wonder?

I also find Dylan not having a sense of humor about the dusting incident being because he was picked on and if the kid doing the dusting wasn’t his friend...why are you putting your hands on someone? If you’re not friends with someone or if you don’t like someone don’t touch them. It’s not funny to everyone. He doesn’t have to have a sense of humor about everything because when you’re bullied everything feels Heightened. I think that’s a lot of projection on my part.

_________________
"And you know, you know, you know, this can be beautiful, you say you're numb inside, but I can't agree. So the world's unfair, keep it locked out there. In here it's beautiful."

Norwegian wrote:: For å psychopath, such as Eric

Checked out after reading that.

_________________
"My guns are the only things that haven't stabbed me in the back."
-Kip Kinkel

Screamingophelia wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

slippy123 wrote:: They had their issues with being bullied, but they bullied kids just as much if not more.
The whole bullying issue was overblown by the media and other news outlets.

It seemed like they both took things to heart a little too seriously.
I don't know of anyone who never had at least one person bully them in high-school.
You put a bunch of teenagers together in a small space and there will always be some sort of issues.

People think that there were kids waiting for them at their cars to beat them up day in and day out, which wasn't the case.

Dylan even stated to his parents that he didn't really get bullied, but Eric did.
He could of been gassing himself up to not look weak, but it makes sense as bullies usually go for the smaller easy targets, not kids who are 6'4.

AFIK, Eric only had one issue where another student actually punched him in the face.

The Eric in Columbine video shows Eric walking right through a group of jocks, and while they bump into Eric Vieth, they don't touch Eric.
Of course that isn't end all be all evidence, but I don't see why the bully jocks would let Eric walk right through him with no issues if they had it out for him as bad as some claim.

That being said, I do believe Eric had to deal with more bullying than Dylan.

I still think so much is subjective because surely we don't know about every bullying incident. Dylan was embarrassed in gym class a lot, called names, had to do bear crawls in front of everyone. If you take someone like Dylan and do things like that to him, then possibly the ketchup incident, messing with his car, the duster thing in the theatre video, being falsely accused of having drugs in his locker and remember someone shoved Devon against a locker when she was talking to Dylan and called her a "fag lover" all of those things can add up in someones psyche if they already have other things going on...

It is an interesting conversation for sure but unless we were there and saw eric and dylan everyday and really spoke with them, we just don't know.

For me, I was bullied a lot, i did not have a friend in the world BUT years after I graduated I have people from my HS saying I was not bullied and people liked me. I got good grades, i was in theatre.. I know I was bullied, my family knows I was too but do they know the extent of it, no. I didn't talk about it as much. I was also called a bully, but to me I was fighting back.

I know that it is anecdotal but I think memories get skewed and some people want to think just because eric and dylan didn't write in their journals " I am so sad, I am being bullied and I cannot fight back.. I shall cry' that there was never any incidents...

I do agree that a lot of it is subjective.
By no means am I saying they weren't bullied, because they most definitely were, but certain outlets made it seem like they were tormented losers with no friends, who couldn't go a day without getting beat up, which is overblown.
I have no doubt that they had classes with a select few assholes who couldn't keep their mouths shut, but I also sense that they might of brought a lot of things on themselves too.
Dylan scratching fag into another students locker, and Eric's notes to his friends calling other kids every name in the book are good indicators they dished out a fair amount of bullying themselves.
It's also backed up by a good portion of 11k interviews too.

I'm not downplaying bullying at all, but name calling and psychically laying your hands on people are in my opinion two opposite ends of the spectrum.

I know there was the infamous ketchup incident, but as you stated we're not even sure if it just a food fight Dylan got caught up in, as the story of what happened seems to change all the time.
Devon was indeed shoved, but that seems like an isolated incident, and it wasn't Dylan who was pushed, although he was the subject of the name calling.
I personally don't believe the duster thing was anything more then a light-hearted joke, as the kid dusted off someone else right before Dylan, and he just laughed, although Dylan didn't seem to have a sense of humor about it.
I haven't heard about the drugs in the locker or the bear crawling incidents, but I definitely will look into them, as I'm interested in who made 6'4 Dylan get on his hands and knees.
If you have any links about those incidents feel free to post them!

Of course these are just my opinions on the said situations, as we may never know the complete truth about all of them.

For two kids who hated their school as much as they claimed, they still did a fair amount of school related activities.
Eric even took his nickname from the school mascot which I've always found ironic.

I could be mistaken, but I also don't remember either of them writing that much about being bullied in their journals, although Eric did write about being the weird kid and no one calling him.

I'm sorry you had to deal with ignorant people like that in high-school.
I was very skinny in high-school and had a few issues of bullying myself, which ended up in a handful of fist fights.
After the fights, the bullying pretty much stopped.

The weird thing is, a few of those kids ended up becoming friends of mine years after we graduated.

I think reb was meant to be ironic. I think he was doing it to be contrary not brvsudhbg he loved his school or anything.

I also think someone like Dylan would’ve been very upset seeing Devon shoved. He would’ve taken that as again the jocks or the higher castes being mean to someone he cares about. And It could’ve been another notch on his anger list.

The bear crawling is in the 11 K. And I have to find the link to the drug incident.

I don’t think Dylan got caught up in a food fight because why would he be in the bathroom upset with comforting him. Also why would that be the worst day of his life? Plus I would sue know a couple years later exactly what happened? She Musta heard it from a few people? Who did she hear it from I wonder?

I also find Dylan not having a sense of humor about the dusting incident being because he was picked on and if the kid doing the dusting wasn’t his friend...why are you putting your hands on someone? If you’re not friends with someone or if you don’t like someone don’t touch them. It’s not funny to everyone. He doesn’t have to have a sense of humor about everything because when you’re bullied everything feels Heightened. I think that’s a lot of projection on my part.

I agree that no one should lay hands on anyone, but I still think Dylan knew the kid from working sound, and it wasn't anything but a light-hearted joke. It looks to me as if the kid was sort of shocked Dylan got so pissed about it.
You can see Dylan having a conversation with someone for a brief second, it might of been with that student, or it might not have been. I can't say for a fact that he was or wasn't friends with Dylan or what their relationship was.

I also looked up the bear crawling incident and found "I remember the teacher making him do bear crawls for being late to class constantly". It seems like it was a punishment for being late all the time, not necessarily a bullying type of thing.
In my high-school, there were gym teachers that would make you run laps if you were late or acted out, and you actually could be suspended if you made a habit of being late.
Some teachers take being constantly late to class as blatant disrespect, while others couldn't care less.

I couldn't find the drug incident in the 11k, but I found an article with a single quote about marijuana possibly being in their lockers.
"There was an unfounded accusation that Harris and Klebold had brought marijuana to school, prompting a search of their property that enraged them"
I'm not sure if the author meant "unfounded" in the sense that there is no proof that it ever happened or what.

The ketchup incident has always been odd to me because there are 2 or 3 different stories about what happened, and from my research no one saw the entire thing.
Totally odd since it occurred in the cafeteria with hundreds of students, and was supposedly such a dramatic event.

Chad Laughlin said he only "caught the tail end" of an incident involving Dylan, ketchup and possible tampons.
There also was a story that Chad consoled Dylan in the bathroom after it happened, yet I couldn't find any proof of this ever happening.
Brooks Brown claimed a more dramatic story, where kids circled both Eric and Dylan and squirted ketchup packets at them while a group of teachers apparently watched and laughed too. (Sounds like another Brooks Brown embellishment)
I also remember hearing something about a food fight involving seniors and ketchup that went down in the cafeteria sometime in early 98.

So yeah, I'm just slightly skeptical about certain situations that went down involving the boys.

Reading 'killer kids' right now. There are some really interesting points he makes about Dylan and Eric. He did complain about getting picked on by hes brother, hated by hes extended family, etc. I havent heard anyone verify that he got bullied by hes brother. IDK wether that was just hes depression or what it was

Norwegian wrote:: Reading 'killer kids' right now. There are some really interesting points he makes about Dylan and Eric. He did complain about getting picked on by hes brother, hated by hes extended family, etc. I havent heard anyone verify that he got bullied by hes brother. IDK wether that was just hes depression or what it was

Dylan did say he was treated like the runt of the litter, but I'm not sure if he was actually "bullied" by his brother.
Sibling rivalry isn't that uncommon and its almost inevitable that fights and or name calling are going to happen, especially between brothers.

I've never heard that he was hated by his extended family though.
Can you quote was was said, as I'd be interested to hear about that.

If you read the interviews with their friends you will find different answers. Its all speculative imo. According to Brooks Brown, he argues that the bullying was quite extremw. Lets forget the bullying directed towards other students, for a moment and zero in on the two and their circle of friends.

So far Ive only read a few interviews and the Brooks Brown- book. Reading Langmanns assessment was also very helpful to get a better understanding, even though he downplays the bullying.

First I want to get down to the expert definition of bullying, which is 1: Imballance of power 2: The abuse is repeated over time. In other words for there to be bullying there has to an imballance of power and repeated abuse. Wether they are verbal, physical, emotional or exclusionist.

The accounts from Brooks is that he met Dylan in elementary school. Judging from the accounts that he writes it seems legit to talk about bullying, and he argues that both him and Dylan got bullied since elemantary and throughout middle school all the way into high school. Some accounts are actually extreme, such as rocks and bottles being throwned at them by the jocks.

Other accounts seems to fall somewhere in the middle. That Eric was made fun of for hes music taste. Sure, thats bullying, but it seems to me like the 'average' type of bullying and not so much extreme bullying like the ketchup incident and the rocks and bottles.

Whats more is that Langmann argues that the worst kind of bullies had graduated the year before the massacre. IDK wether that is correct, though. But I agree that the statements are kind of conflicting and that the media probably exaggarated the bullying to some extent.

I dont think Evan Todd bullied them, inspite of what we are told. But the ketchup incident seems to have been confirmed by atleast two accounts and the Columbine document: Sue Klebold, and a friend. I realize that this can be seen as a triggering event. However, some accounts seems to argue that Eric was more bullied than Dylan, as Dylan was actually a very tall guy. So the answer: from where I stand its very speculative. Ive been trying to read the JSCO- documents but that takes a whole lot of patients as you have to read through the massacre and a host of people that barely knew Eric and Dylan etc

slippy123 wrote:

Norwegian wrote:: Reading 'killer kids' right now. There are some really interesting points he makes about Dylan and Eric. He did complain about getting picked on by hes brother, hated by hes extended family, etc. I havent heard anyone verify that he got bullied by hes brother. IDK wether that was just hes depression or what it was

Dylan did say he was treated like the runt of the litter, but I'm not sure if he was actually "bullied" by his brother.
Sibling rivalry isn't that uncommon and its almost inevitable that fights and or name calling are going to happen, especially between brothers.

I've never heard that he was hated by his extended family though.
Can you quote was was said, as I'd be interested to hear about that.

.

Langmann argues that Dylan had a disturbed mindset. He seems to have been schizoid according to Langmann. So its possible that he may have made this up all in hes mind. 'Society is tigthning its grip on me', for instance. Ive never seen any other accounts that Byron bullied him. From my observation, Dylan was well liked by a lot of people. Im not so sure how he got on with hes Brother,but they were different from what I know. I havent really seen any accounts that he bullied hes younger brother. Ive read Sues book. Youd think they would have noticed, but she doesnt mention it at all. Only that Byron was harder to handle than Dylan, and fought with hes parents.

Norwegian wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

Norwegian wrote:: Reading 'killer kids' right now. There are some really interesting points he makes about Dylan and Eric. He did complain about getting picked on by hes brother, hated by hes extended family, etc. I havent heard anyone verify that he got bullied by hes brother. IDK wether that was just hes depression or what it was

Dylan did say he was treated like the runt of the litter, but I'm not sure if he was actually "bullied" by his brother.
Sibling rivalry isn't that uncommon and its almost inevitable that fights and or name calling are going to happen, especially between brothers.

I've never heard that he was hated by his extended family though.
Can you quote was was said, as I'd be interested to hear about that.

.

Langmann argues that Dylan had a disturbed mindset. He seems to have been schizoid according to Langmann. So its possible that he may have made this up all in hes mind. 'Society is tigthning its grip on me', for instance. Ive never seen any other accounts that Byron bullied him. From my observation, Dylan was well liked by a lot of people. Im not so sure how he got on with hes Brother,but they were different from what I know. I havent really seen any accounts that he bullied hes younger brother. Ive read Sues book. Youd think they would have noticed, but she doesnt mention it at all. Only that Byron was harder to handle than Dylan, and fought with hes parents.

He was also paranoid. Remember that part of the book when Sue mentions how Dylan thought some teens were laughing at him at the restaurant and insisted they had to leave immediately, while she tried to assure him that no one was even looking at him.

Onyx wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

Norwegian wrote:: Reading 'killer kids' right now. There are some really interesting points he makes about Dylan and Eric. He did complain about getting picked on by hes brother, hated by hes extended family, etc. I havent heard anyone verify that he got bullied by hes brother. IDK wether that was just hes depression or what it was

Dylan did say he was treated like the runt of the litter, but I'm not sure if he was actually "bullied" by his brother.
Sibling rivalry isn't that uncommon and its almost inevitable that fights and or name calling are going to happen, especially between brothers.

I've never heard that he was hated by his extended family though.
Can you quote was was said, as I'd be interested to hear about that.

.

Langmann argues that Dylan had a disturbed mindset. He seems to have been schizoid according to Langmann. So its possible that he may have made this up all in hes mind. 'Society is tigthning its grip on me', for instance. Ive never seen any other accounts that Byron bullied him. From my observation, Dylan was well liked by a lot of people. Im not so sure how he got on with hes Brother,but they were different from what I know. I havent really seen any accounts that he bullied hes younger brother. Ive read Sues book. Youd think they would have noticed, but she doesnt mention it at all. Only that Byron was harder to handle than Dylan, and fought with hes parents.

He was also paranoid. Remember that part of the book when Sue mentions how Dylan thought some teens were laughing at him at the restaurant and insisted they had to leave immediately, while she tried to assure him that no one was even looking at him.

I cant recall reading that anywhere. I only heard Judy Brown referencing how they were in a restaurant and Sue said 'Dylan, people are afraid of you'.

Norwegian wrote:

Onyx wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

Norwegian wrote:: Reading 'killer kids' right now. There are some really interesting points he makes about Dylan and Eric. He did complain about getting picked on by hes brother, hated by hes extended family, etc. I havent heard anyone verify that he got bullied by hes brother. IDK wether that was just hes depression or what it was

Dylan did say he was treated like the runt of the litter, but I'm not sure if he was actually "bullied" by his brother.
Sibling rivalry isn't that uncommon and its almost inevitable that fights and or name calling are going to happen, especially between brothers.

I've never heard that he was hated by his extended family though.
Can you quote was was said, as I'd be interested to hear about that.

.

Langmann argues that Dylan had a disturbed mindset. He seems to have been schizoid according to Langmann. So its possible that he may have made this up all in hes mind. 'Society is tigthning its grip on me', for instance. Ive never seen any other accounts that Byron bullied him. From my observation, Dylan was well liked by a lot of people. Im not so sure how he got on with hes Brother,but they were different from what I know. I havent really seen any accounts that he bullied hes younger brother. Ive read Sues book. Youd think they would have noticed, but she doesnt mention it at all. Only that Byron was harder to handle than Dylan, and fought with hes parents.

He was also paranoid. Remember that part of the book when Sue mentions how Dylan thought some teens were laughing at him at the restaurant and insisted they had to leave immediately, while she tried to assure him that no one was even looking at him.

I cant recall reading that anywhere. I only heard Judy Brown referencing how they were in a restaurant and Sue said 'Dylan, people are afraid of you'.

There was one more odd incident on our way home, which at over a couple of tables against the wall. We’d just unwrapped our sandwiches when Dylan leaned forward, hardly moving his lips, and said urgently, “We have to go. Those kids are laughing at me.” I looked over. The teenagers were hooting and hollering and having a great time, and none of them was paying the slightest bit of attention to us. ~ Sue Klebold, a mothers reckoning

_________________
Look hard enough and you will always find a light ~ Rachel Joy Scott

Kerea2244 wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Onyx wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

Norwegian wrote:: Reading 'killer kids' right now. There are some really interesting points he makes about Dylan and Eric. He did complain about getting picked on by hes brother, hated by hes extended family, etc. I havent heard anyone verify that he got bullied by hes brother. IDK wether that was just hes depression or what it was

Dylan did say he was treated like the runt of the litter, but I'm not sure if he was actually "bullied" by his brother.
Sibling rivalry isn't that uncommon and its almost inevitable that fights and or name calling are going to happen, especially between brothers.

I've never heard that he was hated by his extended family though.
Can you quote was was said, as I'd be interested to hear about that.

.

Langmann argues that Dylan had a disturbed mindset. He seems to have been schizoid according to Langmann. So its possible that he may have made this up all in hes mind. 'Society is tigthning its grip on me', for instance. Ive never seen any other accounts that Byron bullied him. From my observation, Dylan was well liked by a lot of people. Im not so sure how he got on with hes Brother,but they were different from what I know. I havent really seen any accounts that he bullied hes younger brother. Ive read Sues book. Youd think they would have noticed, but she doesnt mention it at all. Only that Byron was harder to handle than Dylan, and fought with hes parents.

He was also paranoid. Remember that part of the book when Sue mentions how Dylan thought some teens were laughing at him at the restaurant and insisted they had to leave immediately, while she tried to assure him that no one was even looking at him.

I cant recall reading that anywhere. I only heard Judy Brown referencing how they were in a restaurant and Sue said 'Dylan, people are afraid of you'.

There was one more odd incident on our way home, which at over a couple of tables against the wall. We’d just unwrapped our sandwiches when Dylan leaned forward, hardly moving his lips, and said urgently, “We have to go. Those kids are laughing at me.” I looked over. The teenagers were hooting and hollering and having a great time, and none of them was paying the slightest bit of attention to us. ~ Sue Klebold, a mothers reckoning

Yes, that's it. If I'm not mistaken, it was a month before the shooting. You can clearly see that he was delusional, imagining things and interpreted everything as a personal attack.

I must admit that I havent read it though as she also talks about her breast cancer surgery and I stopped after that. I have to add that I think shes very brave for speaking up, though.

From Dylan's journal - I swear – like I’m an outcast, & everyone is conspiring against me…

From Eric's journal - I hate you people for leaving me out of so many things," senior-year high-school student Eric Harris wrote of his classmates. "You had my phone, and I asked you and all, but no, no no don't let that weird looking Eric kid come along I HATE PEOPLE and they better . . . fear me.

Should be self-explanatory.

_________________
"you seem a lot like me. Pensive, quiet, an observer"
-Dylan klebold

Not necessarily. Eric contradicted himselves all the time. Some accounts suggested that he would get into fights with other students. Other accounts suggested that they were abused. Than again some suggested that they were well liked. I think it boils down to:

- they were bullied.

- they did a bit of bullying themselves.

- they were disliked by some for good reasons.

- they were disliked by others for no other reason than not bellonging to their 'group'.

- They were also well liked by many.

- They also had a number of friends.

If he were rejected, it could be a): Because he was regarded as an outcast b: because he had gone into trouble c: They didnt have a lot in common.

Much of what we now know is recorded in the Jefferson County- documents and the journals. Peter Langmann argues that Dylan had a schizoid personality. He sometimes had difficulties separating fact and fiction. And this is why you have this talk about 'zombies', 'society is tightning its grip on me' etc.

Guest wrote:

gustopoet wrote:

Dextromethorphan wrote:: I think they just got verbally bullied all the time along with many other people at chs, but I don't think they got their asses kicked all the time. They were ignored, I believe.

The bullying was physical at times and included having bottles thrown at them, being shoved against lockers, etc.

Did that happen to them specificly? Or was that just stories floating around about the culture at CHS? I've never seen concrete evidence they were physically bullied. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, I just don't think we can prove what actually happened. I don't see Dylan being physically bullied, maybe Eric more because he was smaller. I'm on the fence about it. I think being verbally abused as a senior really pissed them off.

.

Thats a really good question. I think the answer is 'yes'. But people dont take into account that a lot of information is old and irrellevant once we have newer and more recent evidence. It seems like some of it was bullying, in some cases they got into fights with other students, in some cases they bullied others. Based on what I know, some accounts are inaccurate. IDK about the rest, wether they are accurate or not, but I think it's possible to draw extreme conclusions; either that they werent bullied or that they were extremely unpopular and at the bottom of the food chain. I dont see either one as accurate. I think that you can be bullied and have lots of friends at the same time. You just have a higher risk of being bullied if you are an outsider. Yet, the overall stereotype is that the bullied person is always an outsider. The fact is that, by and large, people that are bullied doesnt fit a particular profile. You can even be bullied and bully people at the same time. There are certain accounts which suggests that Eric and Dylan were the lowest of the low, but there are also other accounts which suggests otherwise. Some accounts suggested that Eric got more bullied than Dylan. Other accounts suggests that they were both bullied. But there are also accounts which suggests that they got into fights and that they bullied other students. All in all, I believe that some dislikes may be due to their own issues, and that the jocks- not the athletes, that is- were just kind off dishing it out on everyone not in their league. I dont think there were that much attention back than to how bullying can affect people. The effects can be long term depression and so on, into adulthood.

slippy123 wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

slippy123 wrote:: They had their issues with being bullied, but they bullied kids just as much if not more.
The whole bullying issue was overblown by the media and other news outlets.

It seemed like they both took things to heart a little too seriously.
I don't know of anyone who never had at least one person bully them in high-school.
You put a bunch of teenagers together in a small space and there will always be some sort of issues.

People think that there were kids waiting for them at their cars to beat them up day in and day out, which wasn't the case.

Dylan even stated to his parents that he didn't really get bullied, but Eric did.
He could of been gassing himself up to not look weak, but it makes sense as bullies usually go for the smaller easy targets, not kids who are 6'4.

AFIK, Eric only had one issue where another student actually punched him in the face.

The Eric in Columbine video shows Eric walking right through a group of jocks, and while they bump into Eric Vieth, they don't touch Eric.
Of course that isn't end all be all evidence, but I don't see why the bully jocks would let Eric walk right through him with no issues if they had it out for him as bad as some claim.

That being said, I do believe Eric had to deal with more bullying than Dylan.

I still think so much is subjective because surely we don't know about every bullying incident. Dylan was embarrassed in gym class a lot, called names, had to do bear crawls in front of everyone. If you take someone like Dylan and do things like that to him, then possibly the ketchup incident, messing with his car, the duster thing in the theatre video, being falsely accused of having drugs in his locker and remember someone shoved Devon against a locker when she was talking to Dylan and called her a "fag lover" all of those things can add up in someones psyche if they already have other things going on...

It is an interesting conversation for sure but unless we were there and saw eric and dylan everyday and really spoke with them, we just don't know.

For me, I was bullied a lot, i did not have a friend in the world BUT years after I graduated I have people from my HS saying I was not bullied and people liked me. I got good grades, i was in theatre.. I know I was bullied, my family knows I was too but do they know the extent of it, no. I didn't talk about it as much. I was also called a bully, but to me I was fighting back.

I know that it is anecdotal but I think memories get skewed and some people want to think just because eric and dylan didn't write in their journals " I am so sad, I am being bullied and I cannot fight back.. I shall cry' that there was never any incidents...

I do agree that a lot of it is subjective.
By no means am I saying they weren't bullied, because they most definitely were, but certain outlets made it seem like they were tormented losers with no friends, who couldn't go a day without getting beat up, which is overblown.
I have no doubt that they had classes with a select few assholes who couldn't keep their mouths shut, but I also sense that they might of brought a lot of things on themselves too.
Dylan scratching fag into another students locker, and Eric's notes to his friends calling other kids every name in the book are good indicators they dished out a fair amount of bullying themselves.
It's also backed up by a good portion of 11k interviews too.

I'm not downplaying bullying at all, but name calling and psychically laying your hands on people are in my opinion two opposite ends of the spectrum.

I know there was the infamous ketchup incident, but as you stated we're not even sure if it just a food fight Dylan got caught up in, as the story of what happened seems to change all the time.
Devon was indeed shoved, but that seems like an isolated incident, and it wasn't Dylan who was pushed, although he was the subject of the name calling.
I personally don't believe the duster thing was anything more then a light-hearted joke, as the kid dusted off someone else right before Dylan, and he just laughed, although Dylan didn't seem to have a sense of humor about it.
I haven't heard about the drugs in the locker or the bear crawling incidents, but I definitely will look into them, as I'm interested in who made 6'4 Dylan get on his hands and knees.
If you have any links about those incidents feel free to post them!

Of course these are just my opinions on the said situations, as we may never know the complete truth about all of them.

For two kids who hated their school as much as they claimed, they still did a fair amount of school related activities.
Eric even took his nickname from the school mascot which I've always found ironic.

I could be mistaken, but I also don't remember either of them writing that much about being bullied in their journals, although Eric did write about being the weird kid and no one calling him.

I'm sorry you had to deal with ignorant people like that in high-school.
I was very skinny in high-school and had a few issues of bullying myself, which ended up in a handful of fist fights.
After the fights, the bullying pretty much stopped.

The weird thing is, a few of those kids ended up becoming friends of mine years after we graduated.

So far I agree. Both the two had very serious issues with themselves. Some of which were probably brought about by environmental factors as far as depression goes. Im noe expert, but as far as I know Anti- social personality disorder, such as what they diagnosed Eric with, can be extremely hard to cope with. I remember watching an online documenrary where they stated that there are different levels of narssissism. Lack of empathy was one I remember were central to all of the different levels of narssissism. As far as I know people that have some sort of ASPD tends to be difficult to cope with, oftentimes because they fail to identify the needs and feelings of others. Atleast I think lack of empathy is central for Erics sake in why he did it. He pretty much dehumanizes people all over the border. I guess its possible that bullying can be a contributing factor in cases like these, but in any case there has to be more to the story. Bullying can have devastating consequences overall and there are plenty of horrible consequences, even research which suggests that bullying may have long term consequences. I dont think anyone thats never been bullied can fully comprehend what its like. So I guess its possible that bullying may have been a factor, but I think that theres way more to it. Not anyone goes on shooting rampage, yet plenty of people are bullied. At the same time, some research Ive looked into suggests that bullying, alienation and loss of status is a very prevelant issue when it comes to school shootings. They have argued that theres a similar pattern for terrorists or radical extremists. That some people see terrorism as a way for them to retaliate. I dont see this with Eric, though. But than again Im no expert on these issues. My only understanding of narssissism and psychopathy is that its extremely hard to treat

This topic was just discussed on the Columbine subreddit [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Here are the examples of bullying pulled from Gleason's book:

Quote :: Sarah DeBoer pg. 2812- 2813 said that she never saw them being bullied but knew that other students made a point of staying away from them because they were different. Ostracism is a form of bullying.

George Sneddon pg. 5205 a substitute teacher said Klebold had once told him that “he was one of the few people that actually ever talked to him.”

Julie Naslund pg. 3886 (knew Eric Harris) said “She was told then by several upper classman that she should not talk to Eric because he was ‘weird.’”

Devon Adams reported being slammed into a locker and called a “f** lover” for talking to Dylan in the hallway (she’s said this in interviews and it’s in the Huerter’s Culture of Columbine report)

Jake Apodaca pg. 9832 said “everyone would pick on the shooters.”

Joseph Ragole pg. 1102, (friendly with both) said he “had seen jocks pick on Harris and Klebold before in the school halls.”

Kristi Epling pg. 10718 (friend of Eric) “the jocks made fun of Harris because of the way he dressed.”

Chuck Phillips pg. 10868 (friend of both) “Eric and Dylan did get picked on a lot”

Patrice Doyle pg. 785 (acquaintance of both) “Dylan and Eric were teased because they wore black trench coats, but the teasing was very minor. She said before they began wearing the trench coats they were not teased at all.”

John Savage pg. 556 (friend of Dylan) “advised he used to see Dylan get teased for the way he dressed.”

Name redacted (hit list from Dylan’s house) pg. 18882 said “he had taunted him” during bowling class. “He had also teased them last year about them wearing trenchcoats when it was 90 degrees outside.”

Mike Paavilainen pg. 16418 “I asked him about Eric and Dylan being teased. He told me this year was a lot less than last year. The group of jocks that graduated last year teased Eric and Dylan a lot.”

Chris Morris pg. 10834- 10835 (friend of both) “Morris stated that Harris was not a very big person and was more susceptible to getting picked on than either he or Klebold, who were both over six feet tall. Morris recalled that Harris was depressed about his size and getting picked on.”

Cory Friesen pg. 10726 “That he thought that Eric and Dylan were being picked on constantly in school, possibly in excess, and that they were never accepted by their peers at school.”

Name redacted, appeared on hit list, pg. 10273 “stated that he knew why he would have made the list, and that was because he had spent most of his time in a gym class he was in with Eric Harris making fun of him.” “Eric had a big head on a very skinny body so he just teased him all the time.”

David Smith pg. 4454 (class with Harris) “Eric Harris also got teased, however he stated it was not severe teasing, just verbal. He added that other students got it worse than Eric Harris did.”

Todd Lovell pg. 6813 “he had known who they were because of their dress and that other kids had generally made fun of them because of their appearance at school.”

Amy Evans pg. 2961 (classes with both) “She said she did know both Eric and Dylan were made fun them because they wore their black trench coats even on hot days.”

Bae Gattoni pg. 3106 when asked if she knew Eric and Dylan personally she said no but “I see them around and they wear the same thing everyday like trench coats, everyone makes fun of them.”

Angela Nelson pg. 3896 (knew Dylan) “She said she also knew who Eric Harris was, because every now and then the jocks would harass both of them.”

Jason Secor pg. 18743 (co-worker of both) “Secor also talked about teasing by school kids re: both Harris and Klebold.”

Dustin Thurmon pg. 7260 “stated that last year he had made fun of both of them when they had worn their trench coats to school and it was 90 degrees outside.” Asked if Thurmon had ever made any comments to them during bowling class he said, “well we always taunted them during the game because we jocks thought we could play the game better.”

Josh Chavez pg. 736 (gym class with Dylan) “everybody made fun of Dylan in class.”

Nicole Ziccardi pg. 4827 (gym class with Dylan) “Several people in the class referred to him as the ‘Jolly Green Giant.”

Sara Schweitzberger pg. 4350 (gym class with Dylan) “advised that some of the kids would tease him because of his height.”

Danielle Danford pg. 770 (friendly with Dylan) “She said she had never had any conversations about him being picked on, but she knew that the jocks had been giving him trouble. She said that on one occasion he spoke about how the jocks were giving him trouble but he didn’t elaborate any further.”

Jordan Grimm pg. 5701- 5702 (knew who Dylan was) “said that he used to make fun of Klebold when he would see him in the cafeteria dressed in his black trench coat.”

Gustavo D’Arthenay pg. 1865 (gym class with Dylan) “some of the students did make fun of him because he wore a trench coat all the time, but that no one really gave him any problems.”

Ryan Walda pg. 7343 (was on one of the lists) he and Dylan had “exchanged words once about a T-shirt that Dylan had been wearing.” “Dylan had worn it almost everyday and he just wanted to know what it meant.” So, either Dylan was just being hypersensitive or Walda was not completely truthful and actually teased Dylan about the shirt.

Bret O’Neil pg. 6974 (acquaintance of both) said Dylan “was sort of the brunt of jokes. They would never make fun openly but O’Neil said that it was a possibility that Klebold may have been aware of it.”

Robert Perry pg. 10853 (acquaintance of both) Eric “had been constantly picked on, taunted, and had food thrown at him by some of the other students at CHS.”

The ketchup incident (surrounded in cafeteria and had ketchup squirted on him/them), which by varying reports involved either just Dylan or both Eric and Dylan. Confirmed by Chad Laughlin, Sue Klebold, and Attorney General’s Investigation into the Directed Report.

Ryan McGrath pg. 6881 (friend of Eric in previous years) “but when people would tease Eric, sometimes Ryan joined in. This was at least two years ago.”

Dustin Harrison pg. 6576 “said he witnessed jocks harassing Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold about their clothing.”

Susan Dewitt pg. 6196 (friend of Eric) Eric had told her “he had heard that Mike Dinkle was talking about him and making fun of him and so he stopped hanging around with Mike.”

Name Redacted (on 98 should have died list) pg. 10264 “stated that he had been relentless in his abuse of Eric during gym. I asked what he meant and he stated he had teased him about being bad in sports because he wasn’t very good, but he wasn’t the only one, other kids teased him too. I asked if he had direct contact and he stated no, just the one class that we all teased him in.

Name Redacted pg. 10265 (also on the 98 list) “stated he had friends (he named two but they were also redacted) who would taunt Harris and school.” but he said he never participated in the taunting.

Justin Baier pg. 1290 “During 1st semester I was in gym + Eric had a class then too. One day we were playing “Biff” (like dodge ball, but every man for himself). Eric won the first game, but the second game some jocks ganged up on him + were hitting him in the face with ball. Then after gym they were pushing him into lockers.”

Brendan Trujillo pg. 4650 (acquaintance of both) did not see it but “did hear that some of the jocks had ‘slammed them into locker’ before.”

Brooks Brown (his book, pg. 108) when the jocks drove by and threw bottles at them.

Kristi Epling pg. 12995- 12996 (friend of Eric) in a note to her Eric wrote that someone was constantly making fun of his clothes.

The Eric in Columbine video where the jocks line up across the hall to try to get Eric and the others to move out of the way and then slam into Eric Veik.

Veronica Jones pg. 4980 said it was common for the jocks to line up in the hall like this and force students to get out of their way or to go down another hall to get around them.

Zach Johnston pg. 903- 904 spoke of how Cale Kennedy always made fun of Eric’s clothing and how Eric confronted him about it one day saying “Everyday you pass me and make fun of me saying Rammstein sucks. Why do you do this crap asshole? What did I do to you?”

Aaron Wright pg. 4788 “he recalled an incident approximately a month ago wherein Seniors at Columbine High School were walking behind Eric Harris, at which time these Seniors (names unknown) made statements towards Harris, such as “The war is over, you can go home.” Wright said he overheard Eric Harris respond, “Shut up assholes.’”

Tom Klebold pg. 10509 said Dylan told him that Dylan wasn’t getting picked on but “he did indicate that people picked on Eric.”

Brooks Brown (his book, pg. 51) said in gym people made fun of Eric’s sunken chest from his previously corrected pectus excavatum.

Eric Harris pg. 26014 in his journal he wrote “Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, how fucking weak I am and shit” “Therefore people make fun of me…constantly”

Dylan Klebold pg. 26388 wrote in his journal “the asshole (name was redacted) in Gym class, how he worries me.” Pg. 26390 “nobody accepting me even though I want to be accepted”

I'd also add, from the book,
Dean Craig Place pg. 5707- 5708 relaying how when Dylan was in his office waiting for Tom to get there to talk about the punishment for defacing the locker, Dylan talked about how upset he was about the way the school handled "people that picked on him and others." So Dylan was effectively telling one of the Deans at Columbine that he was being bullied. Place also said both Eric and Dylan came to him 2 months before the massacre to complain about a kid who was "parking too close to one of their cars and was 'mouthy' with them."

Regina Huerter's report, The Culture of Columbine found that Eric and Dylan were "often the brunt of ridicule and bullying."

The Governor's Columbine Review Commission pg. 98- 99 the "Commission received testimony that the perpetrators had been victims of bullying at the school and had been taunted and rejected by fellow students."

thelmar wrote:

This topic was just discussed on the Columbine subreddit [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Here are the examples of bullying pulled from Gleason's book:

Quote :: Sarah DeBoer pg. 2812- 2813 said that she never saw them being bullied but knew that other students made a point of staying away from them because they were different. Ostracism is a form of bullying.

George Sneddon pg. 5205 a substitute teacher said Klebold had once told him that “he was one of the few people that actually ever talked to him.”

Julie Naslund pg. 3886 (knew Eric Harris) said “She was told then by several upper classman that she should not talk to Eric because he was ‘weird.’”

Devon Adams reported being slammed into a locker and called a “f** lover” for talking to Dylan in the hallway (she’s said this in interviews and it’s in the Huerter’s Culture of Columbine report)

Jake Apodaca pg. 9832 said “everyone would pick on the shooters.”

Joseph Ragole pg. 1102, (friendly with both) said he “had seen jocks pick on Harris and Klebold before in the school halls.”

Kristi Epling pg. 10718 (friend of Eric) “the jocks made fun of Harris because of the way he dressed.”

Chuck Phillips pg. 10868 (friend of both) “Eric and Dylan did get picked on a lot”

Patrice Doyle pg. 785 (acquaintance of both) “Dylan and Eric were teased because they wore black trench coats, but the teasing was very minor. She said before they began wearing the trench coats they were not teased at all.”

John Savage pg. 556 (friend of Dylan) “advised he used to see Dylan get teased for the way he dressed.”

Name redacted (hit list from Dylan’s house) pg. 18882 said “he had taunted him” during bowling class. “He had also teased them last year about them wearing trenchcoats when it was 90 degrees outside.”

Mike Paavilainen pg. 16418 “I asked him about Eric and Dylan being teased. He told me this year was a lot less than last year. The group of jocks that graduated last year teased Eric and Dylan a lot.”

Chris Morris pg. 10834- 10835 (friend of both) “Morris stated that Harris was not a very big person and was more susceptible to getting picked on than either he or Klebold, who were both over six feet tall. Morris recalled that Harris was depressed about his size and getting picked on.”

Cory Friesen pg. 10726 “That he thought that Eric and Dylan were being picked on constantly in school, possibly in excess, and that they were never accepted by their peers at school.”

Name redacted, appeared on hit list, pg. 10273 “stated that he knew why he would have made the list, and that was because he had spent most of his time in a gym class he was in with Eric Harris making fun of him.” “Eric had a big head on a very skinny body so he just teased him all the time.”

David Smith pg. 4454 (class with Harris) “Eric Harris also got teased, however he stated it was not severe teasing, just verbal. He added that other students got it worse than Eric Harris did.”

Todd Lovell pg. 6813 “he had known who they were because of their dress and that other kids had generally made fun of them because of their appearance at school.”

Amy Evans pg. 2961 (classes with both) “She said she did know both Eric and Dylan were made fun them because they wore their black trench coats even on hot days.”

Bae Gattoni pg. 3106 when asked if she knew Eric and Dylan personally she said no but “I see them around and they wear the same thing everyday like trench coats, everyone makes fun of them.”

Angela Nelson pg. 3896 (knew Dylan) “She said she also knew who Eric Harris was, because every now and then the jocks would harass both of them.”

Jason Secor pg. 18743 (co-worker of both) “Secor also talked about teasing by school kids re: both Harris and Klebold.”

Dustin Thurmon pg. 7260 “stated that last year he had made fun of both of them when they had worn their trench coats to school and it was 90 degrees outside.” Asked if Thurmon had ever made any comments to them during bowling class he said, “well we always taunted them during the game because we jocks thought we could play the game better.”

Josh Chavez pg. 736 (gym class with Dylan) “everybody made fun of Dylan in class.”

Nicole Ziccardi pg. 4827 (gym class with Dylan) “Several people in the class referred to him as the ‘Jolly Green Giant.”

Sara Schweitzberger pg. 4350 (gym class with Dylan) “advised that some of the kids would tease him because of his height.”

Danielle Danford pg. 770 (friendly with Dylan) “She said she had never had any conversations about him being picked on, but she knew that the jocks had been giving him trouble. She said that on one occasion he spoke about how the jocks were giving him trouble but he didn’t elaborate any further.”

Jordan Grimm pg. 5701- 5702 (knew who Dylan was) “said that he used to make fun of Klebold when he would see him in the cafeteria dressed in his black trench coat.”

Gustavo D’Arthenay pg. 1865 (gym class with Dylan) “some of the students did make fun of him because he wore a trench coat all the time, but that no one really gave him any problems.”

Ryan Walda pg. 7343 (was on one of the lists) he and Dylan had “exchanged words once about a T-shirt that Dylan had been wearing.” “Dylan had worn it almost everyday and he just wanted to know what it meant.” So, either Dylan was just being hypersensitive or Walda was not completely truthful and actually teased Dylan about the shirt.

Bret O’Neil pg. 6974 (acquaintance of both) said Dylan “was sort of the brunt of jokes. They would never make fun openly but O’Neil said that it was a possibility that Klebold may have been aware of it.”

Robert Perry pg. 10853 (acquaintance of both) Eric “had been constantly picked on, taunted, and had food thrown at him by some of the other students at CHS.”

The ketchup incident (surrounded in cafeteria and had ketchup squirted on him/them), which by varying reports involved either just Dylan or both Eric and Dylan. Confirmed by Chad Laughlin, Sue Klebold, and Attorney General’s Investigation into the Directed Report.

Ryan McGrath pg. 6881 (friend of Eric in previous years) “but when people would tease Eric, sometimes Ryan joined in. This was at least two years ago.”

Dustin Harrison pg. 6576 “said he witnessed jocks harassing Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold about their clothing.”

Susan Dewitt pg. 6196 (friend of Eric) Eric had told her “he had heard that Mike Dinkle was talking about him and making fun of him and so he stopped hanging around with Mike.”

Name Redacted (on 98 should have died list) pg. 10264 “stated that he had been relentless in his abuse of Eric during gym. I asked what he meant and he stated he had teased him about being bad in sports because he wasn’t very good, but he wasn’t the only one, other kids teased him too. I asked if he had direct contact and he stated no, just the one class that we all teased him in.

Name Redacted pg. 10265 (also on the 98 list) “stated he had friends (he named two but they were also redacted) who would taunt Harris and school.” but he said he never participated in the taunting.

Justin Baier pg. 1290 “During 1st semester I was in gym + Eric had a class then too. One day we were playing “Biff” (like dodge ball, but every man for himself). Eric won the first game, but the second game some jocks ganged up on him + were hitting him in the face with ball. Then after gym they were pushing him into lockers.”

Brendan Trujillo pg. 4650 (acquaintance of both) did not see it but “did hear that some of the jocks had ‘slammed them into locker’ before.”

Brooks Brown (his book, pg. 108) when the jocks drove by and threw bottles at them.

Kristi Epling pg. 12995- 12996 (friend of Eric) in a note to her Eric wrote that someone was constantly making fun of his clothes.

The Eric in Columbine video where the jocks line up across the hall to try to get Eric and the others to move out of the way and then slam into Eric Veik.

Veronica Jones pg. 4980 said it was common for the jocks to line up in the hall like this and force students to get out of their way or to go down another hall to get around them.

Zach Johnston pg. 903- 904 spoke of how Cale Kennedy always made fun of Eric’s clothing and how Eric confronted him about it one day saying “Everyday you pass me and make fun of me saying Rammstein sucks. Why do you do this crap asshole? What did I do to you?”

Aaron Wright pg. 4788 “he recalled an incident approximately a month ago wherein Seniors at Columbine High School were walking behind Eric Harris, at which time these Seniors (names unknown) made statements towards Harris, such as “The war is over, you can go home.” Wright said he overheard Eric Harris respond, “Shut up assholes.’”

Tom Klebold pg. 10509 said Dylan told him that Dylan wasn’t getting picked on but “he did indicate that people picked on Eric.”

Brooks Brown (his book, pg. 51) said in gym people made fun of Eric’s sunken chest from his previously corrected pectus excavatum.

Eric Harris pg. 26014 in his journal he wrote “Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, how fucking weak I am and shit” “Therefore people make fun of me…constantly”

Dylan Klebold pg. 26388 wrote in his journal “the asshole (name was redacted) in Gym class, how he worries me.” Pg. 26390 “nobody accepting me even though I want to be accepted”

I'd also add, from the book,
Dean Craig Place pg. 5707- 5708 relaying how when Dylan was in his office waiting for Tom to get there to talk about the punishment for defacing the locker, Dylan talked about how upset he was about the way the school handled "people that picked on him and others." So Dylan was effectively telling one of the Deans at Columbine that he was being bullied. Place also said both Eric and Dylan came to him 2 months before the massacre to complain about a kid who was "parking too close to one of their cars and was 'mouthy' with them."

Regina Huerter's report, The Culture of Columbine found that Eric and Dylan were "often the brunt of ridicule and bullying."

The Governor's Columbine Review Commission pg. 98- 99 the "Commission received testimony that the perpetrators had been victims of bullying at the school and had been taunted and rejected by fellow students."

Which would suggest that they may have been bullied. The other one with the car and mouthy kid, isnt easy to place. Could be that it was a bad one time incident, could be that it was bullying.

Ive never been to the US and I have no idea how school bullying works over there. Of course, kids could be mouthing you off every now and than without bullying you. Just because they thought it made them look cool. But yes, bullying, that I probably experienced to some degree or the other growing up(my memory is a bit distorted at times), does have an impact. Overall I dont necessarily dismiss that they were bullied. Theres contradictory statements and accounts. Which is a challenge itselves. Going through the Columbine- documents I think that there are probably over 200 statements that deals with them either not being harassed/ being harassed/ and them harassing other students. I think it's possible that they may have been bullied and that they bullied others in return. Either that, or that Eric was the target, and not Dylan because he was too tall.

It doesn’t matter if anyone thinks they were not bullied “bad enough” things affect people differently.

I’m having a hard time with a break up... and my friends think I should be over it by now, but it’s affecting me a lot for various reasons... so it’s great that other people can get over things quickly. Others can’t.

_________________
"And you know, you know, you know, this can be beautiful, you say you're numb inside, but I can't agree. So the world's unfair, keep it locked out there. In here it's beautiful."

Screamingophelia wrote:: It doesn’t matter if anyone thinks they were not bullied “bad enough” things affect people differently.

I’m having a hard time with a break up... and my friends think I should be over it by now, but it’s affecting me a lot for various reasons... so it’s great that other people can get over things quickly. Others can’t.

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Lets agree that people deal with their issues differently. The stuff that I went through affected me for many, many years. Trusting people wasnt easy, and so on. Bullying, no matter how small or big can effect people. Ive never been in a relationship with another person(slightly because I though I wasnt attractive enough for the opposite sex. Thats where I was targeted up for abuse to the point where I believed in it). Your absolutely correct that it affects people differently and in no shape or form am I suggesting that bullying anyone is OK, not even towards those two. I was shocked and heartbroken when I first started to read about many of the accounts regarding bullying, because you think that kids should be safe in schools from abuse. Its a Daily reality for people all over the world. For adults, for children. In schools, in the worklpace etc. And no doubt, the consequences can be hard for people, with long term effects. Luckily, theres a lot more awareness around bullying these days and I hope that things will get better for you. I hope you have someone that you can talk to and that will take time to listen to you I love you

» "Eric and Dylan never said they were bullied"
» Eric and Dylan bullied a special-ed kid
» For those of you who argue that Eric and Dylan were not bullied
» Eric and Dylan weren't bullied because they were straight
» DeAngelis: Eric and Dylan weren't bullied