Proof that Dylan was NOT afraid of Eric

Do you know that Cullen doesn't mention "John Savage" even one time in his book? Do you know why?

Because mentioning that Dylan and Eric had an argument during the massacre, and that DYLAN WON THE ARGUMENT, would undermine his contentions that a) Eric was the undisputed leader and b) Dylan was deathly afraid of Eric.

I'm reading Tim Krabbé's book right now. This part of the book was translated by thedragonrampant:

Quote :

Underneath a nearby table, Eric saw a boy called John Savage sitting there by himself. He crouched down and aimed his carbine at him. John leaned away, Eric repositioned the barrel to point back at John's face, John leaned away again.

Eric got up. "Who is this?" he asked. "Identify yourself!"

"It's me, John," replied John Savage.

Now Dylan walked over to this table as well. "John Savage?" he asked.

"Y-y-yes," said John, he was a stutterer. He knew both Eric and Dylan; he'd been on the outskirts of the Trenchcoat Mafia some two years back, and had shared classes with both boys. He'd done the same philosophy test Eric had missed that very morning. He knew Dylan better through all the drama plays they did together.

"Hi," said Dylan.

"Hi, Dylan," replied John. "What are you doing?"

Dylan shrugged. "Oh, you know, just shooting people."

"Are you gonna shoot me, too?" asked John.

Dylan looked at him for a minute, and then said: "Nah, man, you're cool. We know you. We like you. You never did anything to us. We'll let you live. Get out of here. We're gonna blow up the school. Let him go," he said to Eric.

"Oh, okay," said John. "Then I'll go." But he remained seated.

Dylan grew impatient: "If you value your life, get out of here!"

John still remained seated.

"Get out!" said Dylan.

Eric didn't seem to agree that John was allowed to leave. But Dylan again repeated: "Let him go." A girl hidden under a nearby table got the impression that discord arose between the two over this.

"Get out of here," said Dylan with a laugh in his voice. "Get out!"

"Thanks," said John. He pushed some chairs out of the way and sprinted out of the library.

Takeaways:

* Dylan made the decision to spare John Savage's life on his own, without consulting Eric
* Dylan announced his decision on his own, without consulting Eric
* Dylan told Eric what to do ("Let him go")
* Dylan argued with Eric
* Eric ultimately did what Dylan wanted him to do - he let John leave the library

How can we reconcile the facts of this incident with Cullen's characterization of the two shooters as Eric the Swaggering Leader and Dylan the Cowering Follower? Remember that Dylan is supposed to be deathly afraid of Eric - he has no initiative of his own, but is merely a sad little emo being dragged on a leash by a big bad psychopath.

The answer is that we can't. There is no way to interpret the Savage incident in a way that makes Dylan seem like the totally-subordinate partner that Cullen wants him to be. So Cullen omits any mention of it from his narrative.

One could argue that this incident is further proof that Dylan really didn't want to kill people, at least not as badly as Eric did. But isn't it interesting that Dylan felt confident enough to speak up? Doesn't that contradict Cullen's assertion that Eric called all the shots?

...

And here's something else to consider:

The name "Dan Steepleton" does not appear in Cullen's book, either.

Dan Steepleton was the kid who was shot (by Dylan) because he was wearing a white hat.

Does the phrase "lies by omission" mean anything to you, Dave?

How are you able to read Tim Krabbé's book? A simple translator won't do the job in my opinion.

Dylan did not agree with eric wow

This is the first time I've heard that Dylan told Eric to let John Savage go, which leads me to believe it didn't happen. Same with Dylan shooting Dan Steepleton because he wore a white hat.

Jaan wrote:

How are you able to read Tim Krabbé's book? A simple translator won't do the job in my opinion.

I'm making do.

Quote :

Same with Dylan shooting Dan Steepleton because he wore a white hat.

Dan Steepleton was wearing a white hat, and Dylan did look straight at him before firing at him. Take from that what you will.

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Wasn't Cullen the one that stayed at the Klebold's house during writing his book?(not sure about that i read one author did). IMO , he has an in with the Klebold's and wants to keep it, so therefore as long as he makes Dylan look like a victim of Eric and his rage he can continue getting stories from them if they ever decide to go public.I actually was researching the other night and came upon a few post of yours on an article about Cullen.It was a female writer from " 09" maybe and then it switched to the name "Stan" anyway i was very intrigued by how the lady just quit answering you and a few others started disproving Cullen's "facts"....I started reading Cullen's book but after his stating Eric was a ladies man i decided not to waste my time.It seems to me Mrs.Klebold only focuses on Dylan's suicide more than his killing spree and that i guess makes her feel better than someone else see's the (victim, for lack of a better word) in Dylan.I wonder if the 2 families have spoken about all that went on at Columbine and between their sons?Why do they blame Eric more than Dylan it seems a lot of groups believe Eric to be the devil himself sent from hell just to corrupt Dylan and kill the victims at Columbine??Sorry for so many questions.

sonja32 wrote:

Wasn't Cullen the one that stayed at the Klebold's house during writing his book?(not sure about that i read one author did).

Nope.

Dave Cullen wrote:

Through their attorney, Sue and Tom Klebold verified much of the biographical information about their family and their activity after the attacks, adding small bits of information.

no that wasn´t Cullen. That was the author of "Far from the tree" who stayed at the Klebold´s home.

Quote :

I actually was researching the other night and came upon a few post of yours on an article about Cullen.It was a female writer from " 09" maybe and then it switched to the name "Stan" anyway i was very intrigued by how the lady just quit answering you and a few others started disproving Cullen's "facts"....

I remember that ... yeah, that lady was a smarmy bitch.

There was another time Dylan disagreed with Eric. A girl backed into Dylan's car at school and Eric got pissed at her. Dylan told Eric to get back in the car and Dylan told the girl not to worry about the car because it had been hit before.

sonja32 wrote:

Nope. sorry, i wasn't sure who stayed there until you said who.my apologizes.

Oh, don't apologize. Smart people ask questions.

Did John say himself that this happened the way its posted here?

Sue Klebold told Andrew Solomon that Dylan was scared of Eric. I trust this over the speculative evidence assembled here.

Heidi Johnson, Nick Baumgart, Tyler Chenoweth, Terry Lawson, Katelyn Place, Steve Trujillo, Dominick Duran, Michael Bierman, Leslie Burns, Jason Cornelius, Brett O'Neill, Roison McEwen, and finally and most importantly Devon Adams all say Dylan was a follower of Eric.

If they really got into an argument, I think John Savage, the person who was looking right at them, would have mentioned it at least once in the hundred times he's retold this story.

lasttrain wrote:

Sue Klebold told Andrew Solomon that Dylan was scared of Eric.  I trust this over the speculative evidence assembled here.  

Heidi Johnson, Nick Baumgart, Tyler Chenoweth, Terry Lawson, Katelyn Place, Steve Trujillo, Dominick Duran, Michael Bierman, Leslie Burns, Jason Cornelius, Brett O'Neill, Roison McEwen, and finally and most importantly Devon Adams all say Dylan was a follower of Eric.

If they really got into an argument, I think John Savage, the person who was looking right at them, would have mentioned it at least once in the hundred times he's retold this story.

How much does Cullen pay you, lasttrain?

lasttrain wrote:

Sue Klebold told Andrew Solomon that Dylan was scared of Eric.  I trust this over the speculative evidence assembled here.

Yes, Susan Klebold is a totally objective neutral observer, who has no incentive to try to make Dylan seem like the victim.

Quote :

Heidi Johnson, Nick Baumgart, Tyler Chenoweth, Terry Lawson, Katelyn Place, Steve Trujillo, Dominick Duran, Michael Bierman, Leslie Burns, Jason Cornelius, Brett O'Neill, Roison McEwen, and finally and most importantly Devon Adams all say Dylan was a follower of Eric.

A follower, maybe. But that doesn't mean that Dylan was a cowering little pussy who shat his pants every time Eric glanced in his direction. And it doesn't mean that Dylan didn't want to kill.

Quote :

If they really got into an argument, I think John Savage, the person who was looking right at them, would have mentioned it at least once in the hundred times he's retold this story.

Forget about the "argument" for a moment. Let's look at the conversation recounted by John Savage in his 11k interview:

JOHN
Hi, Dylan. What are you doing?

Dylan shrugs his shoulders.

DYLAN
Oh, just killing people.

JOHN
Are you going to kill me?

DYLAN
No, dude. Just get out of here. Just run.

...

No mention of Eric. So Dylan is acting on his own.

John goes on to say that Dylan told him to "run" more than once, as if to indicate he should hurry.

Why would Dylan tell him to run? Because Dylan thought that Eric might shoot him?

If Dylan was afraid of Eric, would he have taken such an action without consulting Eric first? Or was it a spur-of-the-moment thing, where Dylan didn't think before he spoke?

And here's another thing: "Oh, just killing people" is a great quote - it's chilling and morbidly funny. If I wrote a book about Columbine, I might even make that the title.

Authors are always looking for little gems like that one. But Cullen omits it from his book. Why?

Because it makes Dylan seem like he has absolutely no empathy, no regard for the people whose lives he's destroying.

Cullen's spiel is that Dylan was a reluctant follower who really didn't want to be there. Supposedly he was shitting his pants in fear that big bad Eric would come after him. Mentioning that Dylan casually shrugged his shoulders and said, "Oh, just killing people" would undermine that contention.

And Cullen never mentions Klebold's encounter with Lance Kirklin - "Here, I'll help you." Why?

Because Dylan's actions - telling an injured boy that he will help him, and then firing a bullet into that boy's face - make him seem like (dare I say it?) a conscience-less psychopath.

lasttrain wrote:

Sue Klebold told Andrew Solomon that Dylan was scared of Eric.  I trust this over the speculative evidence assembled here.

Not to argue, lasttrain, but based on the reaction of the Klebolds during and after the incident, I don't think they knew their son as well as they thought they did. This is not an accusation, but something I believe to be true of most parent/teenager relationships. She had no idea that Dylan was depressed and planning a mass murder that ended with his suicide. I'm not sure her perception of Dylan and Eric's relationship can be categorized as accurate.

Very good point. I agree. It's not the same thing exactly , but Rachel's family were shocked when they read her journals. They had no idea of her depth of spirituality, her depressive side and sometimes morbid thoughts. Darrell Scott even said that in some ways it was like reading a strangers journals. So that wall between parents and teens is often there.

Wideawake wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Sue Klebold told Andrew Solomon that Dylan was scared of Eric.  I trust this over the speculative evidence assembled here.

Not to argue, lasttrain, but based on the reaction of the Klebolds during and after the incident, I don't think they knew their son as well as they thought they did. This is not an accusation, but something I believe to be true of most parent/teenager relationships. She had no idea that Dylan was depressed and planning a mass murder that ended with his suicide. I'm not sure her perception of Dylan and Eric's relationship can be categorized as accurate.

It seems John Savage was the only person out of dozens that they recognized. By directly asking who he was, Eric initiated the subsequent events.

Dylan came over and made the decision to "let him go." I have no doubt it was a unilateral decision at the time, but there is a definite possibility that the killers had contemplated letting a few victims escape, to promote a sort of lore about the killing spree. Dylan especially modeled himself after the "heroes" of Natural Born Killers, who made a point of leaving one survivor to tell the story. Remember, at that time they thought the whole library was going to be brought down in an explosion.

Over the last few years of his life, a lot of people who knew Eric were afraid of him, Brooks Brown included. It wouldn't be surprising if Dylan at some point told his mom that he was afraid of Eric too.

I have never saw or read any entries that remotely stated in any way Dylan was scared of Eric.Brooks still hung out with Eric after he read the death threat online so he must not have been to scared ,Eric even spared his life .I really get frustrated with the whole Eric is more evil, mastermind theme.Both boys killed people not just Eric.Dylan had bombs in his car,just like Eric,Dylan shot people just like Eric,Dylan threw bombs just like Eric.Eric had angrier writings opposed to Dylan's poor me letters( i want to die because i can't find true love or any love) or my best friend got a girlfriend i am abandoned or tonight i was Mr Cutter.The thing is that Eric still carries the brunt of the load and that's probably why the Harris's will never tell or say much of anything(would you).Eric was no more scarier than a "6'4 dude dressed in black with longer,bushier hair wearing a trench coat and scowling as seen in the theater video where the boy touches his shoulder with a feather duster and Dylan looks pissed and looks pretty freaky (to me).Eric in comparison was "5'7 had( Pectus Exacavatum) whose trench coat swallowed him whole and was said by many to be just as nice as Dylan.I don't think Dylan ever told anyone he was scared of Eric or that anyone else was i saw interviews where it was said( Devon) they both had gotten darker, not just Eric.I always say you can't be lead unless your'e willing to follow and Dylan must have been cause he sure was whooping it up in the library as he killed .

PaintItBlack wrote:

Very good point. I agree. It's not the same thing exactly , but Rachel's family were shocked when they read her journals. They had no idea of her depth of spirituality, her depressive side and sometimes morbid thoughts. Darrell Scott even said that in some ways it was like reading a strangers journals. So that wall between parents and teens is often there.

Wideawake wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Sue Klebold told Andrew Solomon that Dylan was scared of Eric.  I trust this over the speculative evidence assembled here.

Not to argue, lasttrain, but based on the reaction of the Klebolds during and after the incident, I don't think they knew their son as well as they thought they did. This is not an accusation, but something I believe to be true of most parent/teenager relationships. She had no idea that Dylan was depressed and planning a mass murder that ended with his suicide. I'm not sure her perception of Dylan and Eric's relationship can be categorized as accurate.

I agree with all of this. I think that no matter how close you are with your parents, there's just things that you don't tell them.

Also, I'd like to add that just because Dylan was depressed and had severe self hate/image issues doesn't mean he wasn't just as beastly as Eric. I think Dylan was further off the deep end than any of us realize, and that made him just as dangerous, if not more so, than Eric. IMO, between the two of them, I'd be more inclined to be afraid of Dylan.

I tend to liken Eric to my cousin. She yells at her kids a lot, but doesn't really lay down the law.  

I think Dylan was a bit afraid at times. The occasion that springs to mind when this is discussed is when he told Brooks about Eric's website.

I always imagine it as a sort of 'head down in the corridor, check nobody is looking, hand Brooks the note with the address then get the hell away before Eric walks past' type job.

blue02 wrote:

Over the last few years of his life, a lot of people who knew Eric were afraid of him, Brooks Brown included. It wouldn't be surprising if Dylan at some point told his mom that he was afraid of Eric too.

I should have been more clear. What I meant to say was that several friends and parents of friends, over the last couple of years, saw something in Eric that raised fears about him. That's not to say that Dylan didn't speak out or contradict Eric at times. And I'm not saying that Dylan wasn't scary - he cultivated a theatrical version of himself that was terrifying.

Sometimes it's easy to fall into the trap of "all or nothing." Eric was cold and calculating. Dylan was hot-headed and emotional. Their relationship was complex, and I don't know if we have enough information to really pin it down. We've all been in partnership dynamics where sometimes you take the lead, and sometimes the other person does. Eric and Dylan used each other, but for the most part, I think they were equals.

This thread's topic is omissions by Dave Cullen in his book, Columbine. I've read the book a couple of times over the years, along with 4-5 other authors, and much, much other material as well. Cullen gets some things wrong (a few minor and a couple major), and leaves out a lot, no question. I don't think it was intended to be an A-Z "this is how they did it" book. Cullen spends more time than other authors in trying to flesh out the killers and just a few of their victims. He also tells some of the story from the point of view of the community.

In my opinion, Cullen's Columbine is an interesting take, but if it is the only book you read on the subject, you will be missing out.

Sue Klebold's statement alone is not enough.

But combine it with the fact that Dylan warned Brooks Brown about Eric's websites, which shows fear of what Eric might do.

Combine it with the massive numbers of people who say Dylan took orders from Eric.

Suddenly you have evidence that corroborates Sue Klebold's statements, which, as I understand are not based on her direct observation of Dylan at the time but rather reading his diaries, watching the videos, and putting that together with what she knew as a mother.

lasttrain wrote:

Sue Klebold's statement alone is not enough.

But combine it with the fact that Dylan warned Brooks Brown about Eric's websites, which shows fear of what Eric might do.

Combine it with the massive numbers of people who say Dylan took orders from Eric.

Suddenly you have evidence that corroborates Sue Klebold's statements, which, as I understand are not based on her direct observation of Dylan at the time but rather reading his diaries, watching the videos, and putting that together with what she knew as a mother.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Does he pay you by the word?

lasttrain wrote:

Sue Klebold's statement alone is not enough.

But combine it with the fact that Dylan warned Brooks Brown about Eric's websites, which shows fear of what Eric might do.

Combine it with the massive numbers of people who say Dylan took orders from Eric.

Suddenly you have evidence that corroborates Sue Klebold's statements, which, as I understand are not based on her direct observation of Dylan at the time but rather reading his diaries, watching the videos, and putting that together with what she knew as a mother.

Obviously we don't have all the information that Sue Klebold has. But I never saw anything in the information we have seen to make me think that Dylan was afraid of Eric. And regarding Brooks and the website, I have always thought that Dylan might have an ulterior motive for warning him. Actually, if I were Eric, I might put Dylan up to it to give Brooks a scare. It never would have occurred to me (during that time period) that Brooks' parents would call the police, or that you could actually get in trouble for it. Internet crimes weren't exactly common, or at least common knowledge, at that time. Further, from what we know of Dylan, it seems fairly obvious that Dylan did what Dylan wanted to do. Homework, work, diversion. He did just enough to skate by in all of it. I don't see him responding well to Eric throwing orders out.

That said, we weren't there and we don't truly know what kind of relationship the boys had. It's obvious that even those closest to them - parents, best friends, teachers, coworkers - didn't REALLY understand what kind of relationship they had. This is one of the many things about this case that we will just have to guess at.

Dylan gave Brooks the web site info a month and a half after he and Eric had been arrested for felony theft, but just days before they applied for the Diversion program. The Browns called the police about the web site, but evidently the report didn't make it to anyone who knew about Eric's arrest. If law enforcement had done their job by checking out Eric Harris for an arrest record, the jig would have been up - it's hard to see how Eric would have  qualified for Diversion. The web site had admissions of making and exploding bombs, as well as terroristic threats. Eric might have made probation, but he would have come under much more scrutiny.

Why did Dylan tell Brooks? I agree with Wideawake that we don't have a real understanding of the killers' relationship, but Brooks reported that Dylan told Brooks to not tell Eric. If it was Eric's goal to scare Brooks, I can't see a reason to pretend that Dylan was acting on his own to reveal the web site contents. The more reasonable conclusion is that Dylan was going behind Eric's back.

But why? Did he do it to warn Brooks to watch out? Did he do it to expose Eric to being rejected for the Diversion program (and wouldn't that put him in a position of getting implicated, too?)

This discussion is going around and around just a bit because when we talk about the possibility of Dylan being fearful of Eric, we all have our own ideas of what that means. On one extreme are those who say Dylan was Eric's lapdog. On the other are those who say Dylan was in charge. But the truth is somewhere in between - Dylan may have, at some time, recognized that Eric was capable of killing his old friend Brooks Brown. And rather than confront Eric about it, he made an end run around one friend to to warn the other. That action indicates fear on some level.

blue02 wrote:

Dylan gave Brooks the web site info a month and a half after he and Eric had been arrested for felony theft, but just days before they applied for the Diversion program. The Browns called the police about the web site, but evidently the report didn't make it to anyone who knew about Eric's arrest. If law enforcement had done their job by checking out Eric Harris for an arrest record, the jig would have been up - it's hard to see how Eric would have  qualified for Diversion. The web site had admissions of making and exploding bombs, as well as terroristic threats. Eric might have made probation, but he would have come under much more scrutiny.

Why did Dylan tell Brooks? I agree with Wideawake that we don't have a real understanding of the killers' relationship, but Brooks reported that Dylan told Brooks to not tell Eric. If it was Eric's goal to scare Brooks, I can't see a reason to pretend that Dylan was acting on his own to reveal the web site contents. The more reasonable conclusion is that Dylan was going behind Eric's back.

But why? Did he do it to warn Brooks to watch out? Did he do it to expose Eric to being rejected for the Diversion program (and wouldn't that put him in a position of getting implicated, too?)

This discussion is going around and around just a bit because when we talk about the possibility of Dylan being fearful of Eric, we all have our own ideas of what that means. On one extreme are those who say Dylan was Eric's lapdog. On the other are those who say Dylan was in charge. But the truth is somewhere in between - Dylan may have, at some time, recognized that Eric was capable of killing his old friend Brooks Brown. And rather than confront Eric about it, he made an end run around one friend to to warn the other. That action indicates fear on some level.

Yes, it does. I'm forced to agree with you that, at the very least, Dylan feared that Eric might do something to Brooks. He was in a difficult position and he tried to resolve the situation in the best way he knew how.

Surely Dylan must have realized that the Browns would get the police involved.

If the police had done their job, this board wouldn't exist. Fifteen people who died in 1999 might very well be alive right now.

Was Dylan surprised that no action was taken? Given his propensity for magical thinking, did he interpret this as a sign that he really was supposed to go NBK with Eric?

I've never said that Dylan was in charge. But I certainly don't accept the argument that he was a sad little puppy who somehow stumbled into Eric's web.

I know this is dredging up an old topic but it got me thinking and I haven't seen any posts about it, but I'm sure it's been talked about.

Both Sue Klebold and Judy Brown saw the Basement Tapes and claim there is a point where Eric is playing around with his gun, then the infamous Passover discussion takes place and they both say Dylan looks scared.

Could they be interpreting it the wrong way or just saying it to put Dylan in a better light. Or maybe they were noticing something about Dylan that others didn't. Judy knew him as a child and of course Sue is his mom.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I know this is dredging up an old topic but it got me thinking and I haven't seen any posts about it, but I'm sure it's been talked about.

Both Sue Klebold and Judy Brown saw the Basement Tapes and claim there is a point where Eric is playing around with his gun, then the infamous Passover discussion takes place and they both say Dylan looks scared.

Could they be interpreting it the wrong way or just saying it to put Dylan in a better light. Or maybe they were noticing something about Dylan that others didn't. Judy knew him as a child and of course Sue is his mom.

I have often wondered about that as well. Just another reason I want to see the basement tapes for myself. I want to see Dylan's facial expressions, body language, etc to see if he was truly afraid of Eric's reaction or not.

I think Sue would say anything to make Eric look bad. Sad fact. I don't think Dylan was ever truly scared of Eric. Scared of Eric leaving him maybe... scared that Eric would back out of the plan? Probably

I was thinking that Judy wouldn't have a motive to make Dylan look better.. but her motive of saying he was scared of Eric could be her hatred of Eric in general. The backpedaling thing gets me too. Why he was kind of stammering and saying "um just a quarter" Maybe he wasn't afraid, just ashamed for whatever reason?

Did one of them have a gun pointed at them at some point? I remember reading that but to be honest it could have been from the BT recreation video, I think they mentioned they added some things to it and filled in blanks.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I was thinking that Judy wouldn't have a motive to make Dylan look better.. but her motive of saying he was scared of Eric could be her hatred of Eric in general. The backpedaling thing gets me too. Why he was kind of stammering and saying "um just a quarter" Maybe he wasn't afraid, just ashamed for whatever reason?

Did one of them have a gun pointed at them at some point? I remember reading that but to be honest it could have been from the BT recreation video, I think they mentioned they added some things to it and filled in blanks.

Not intentional but at one point Dylan was "gearing up" and he pointed the gun right at Eric. He also pointed it at his stomach during the Rampart Range video. Dylan is the reason guns have a safety....

Screamingophelia wrote:

Did one of them have a gun pointed at them at some point? I remember reading that but to be honest it could have been from the BT recreation video, I think they mentioned they added some things to it and filled in blanks.

Well considering Dylan's complete lack of gun safety awareness that just might be true. I'm sure if he had the gun then it was pointed at Eric numerous times and at himself as well.

He is so lax about everything, but not paying attention to gun safety just brings it home that he had a death wish. He wanted to die SO bad.

Liz, that is what I was thinking of, that's probably why they put it in the Basement Tape recreation.

In Rampart Range, it may have been the camera angle, but it looks like Dylan has the gun pointed at Eric's head.

Screamingophelia wrote:

He is so lax about everything, but not paying attention to gun safety just brings it home that he had a death wish. He wanted to die SO bad.

Liz, that is what I was thinking of, that's probably why they put it in the Basement Tape recreation.

In Rampart Range, it may have been the camera angle, but it looks like Dylan has the gun pointed at Eric's head.

OH I had meant Dylan pointed the gun at his own stomach. He leaned over with the gun against his belly button area. I haven't seen that video in a while but it wouldn't surprise me if he pointed it at Eric's head as well.

I have said it before but the moment I saw Dylan take that Tec 9 and turn his hand to the side Pulp Fiction style....that told me how much experience he had with guns

Screamingophelia wrote:

I was thinking that Judy wouldn't have a motive to make Dylan look better.. but her motive of saying he was scared of Eric could be her hatred of Eric in general. The backpedaling thing gets me too. Why he was kind of stammering and saying "um just a quarter" Maybe he wasn't afraid, just ashamed for whatever reason?

Did one of them have a gun pointed at them at some point? I remember reading that but to be honest it could have been from the BT recreation video, I think they mentioned they added some things to it and filled in blanks.

If Judy was trying to make Dylan look better (which I don't think was the case by the way), I suppose a motive for it would be that the Brown's didn't seem to pick up on anything being particularly wrong with Dylan like they did with Eric - despite over the years probably having considerably more contact with Dylan than they did with Eric.

I remember that! Loading the gun into his stomach.

You'd think Eric who had more experience would help him out a little. Did Eric have more experience? Now that I think about it, I'm not sure... but I THINK he did.

DIW. there has been a lot of people who have said they didn't see it coming from Dylan. Zach Heckler mentioned that he had an issue with alcohol, which I can buy completely.

So if Judy saw the fear in Dylan, maybe it wasn't that Eric was going to hurt him but that Eric would back out?

We will never know unless we see it.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I remember that! Loading the gun into his stomach.

You'd think Eric who had more experience would help him out a little. Did Eric have more experience? Now that I think about it, I'm not sure... but I THINK he did.

DIW. there has been a lot of people who have said they didn't see it coming from Dylan. Zach Heckler mentioned that he had an issue with alcohol, which I can buy completely.

So if Judy saw the fear in Dylan, maybe it wasn't that Eric was going to hurt him but that Eric would back out?

We will never know unless we see it.

I think Eric had more "book" knowledge of guns than Dylan did but I don't think he had any real life experience outside of bb guns. I think one was just as green as the other

Eric or Dylan were NOT afraid of each other.

They planned to die together and in the end they did.

I agree with that, I'm just wondering why both Judy and Sue mentioned that particular moment as telling, they saw something in Dylan. Maybe it was wishful thinking? Like "See, there's sweet Dylan, he hates this, he doesn't want to do it!" which we know is not true.

We know Sue was very shocked and upset to hear Dylan saying those things and his tone of voice upset her as well so that would not surprise me to hear that she was trying to find some part of the "old Dylan" there.

I think by that time there had already been rumors of Eric being involved in Nazism or Nazi ideals and Dylan was a bit Jewish so I think if anything Sue was pushing her emotions or feelings onto Dylan.

I had a huge paragraph I wrote out and then accidentally erased it so I cliff-noted my thoughts...I don't know if what I wrote makes sense lol

It does. That was back when there was a very heavy belief of "Eric was a Nazi skinhead racist" so it makes sense to project that onto Dylan.

I also find it hard to believe that Eric didn't know Dylan, his friend since what 8th grade wasn't a little bit Jewish. There HAD to have been a random hanukkah celebration at one point or some sort of knowledge Dylan knew in class... something.

Screamingophelia wrote:

It does. That was back when there was a very heavy belief of "Eric was a Nazi skinhead racist" so it makes sense to project that onto Dylan.

I also find it hard to believe that Eric didn't know Dylan, his friend since what 8th grade wasn't a little bit Jewish. There HAD to have been a random hanukkah celebration at one point or some sort of knowledge Dylan knew in class... something.

While Sue was Jewish by heritage I get the feeling that they hardly ever celebrated anything in that realm. It sounds to me based on what Sue wrote that her idea of doing the passover dinner was a new idea for her. Something she had not done with her own family before

Which is probably why Dylan was like "um NO" plus having to do a reading I think.

I still can't get out of family stuff like that. I have to say Grace even though I have been openly agnostic for about 20 years... and I'm always uncomfortable with it. So I just thank whomever cooked the food and say that it's nice to see everyone, since I live 3,000 miles away from home I can skirt around the whole "God" thing.