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 Locking the library doors

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PostSubject: Locking the library doors   Locking the library doors Icon_minitimeWed May 13, 2015 5:48 pm

I was just curious as to what you guys thought would've happened if Patti Nielson locked/barricaded the library doors as the 911 operator suggested. Do you think Eric and Dylan would've attempted to break in, or go to another part of the school and continue the massacre?

While on the topic, why did Eric and Dylan carry out the worst of the massacre in the Library?
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PostSubject: Re: Locking the library doors   Locking the library doors Icon_minitimeThu May 14, 2015 12:37 am

I'm not sure if they would try to break in the library if it was locked. They didn't really try to break into any other locked rooms, as far as I know.

I think they carried out the worst of the massacre in the library because the victims were easy to attack. The people in the library were not running away and they were all hidden in plain sight. Easy pickings if you ask me.

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PostSubject: Re: Locking the library doors   Locking the library doors Icon_minitimeThu May 14, 2015 3:15 am

Then again there were heaps hiding not very well in the cafeteria, And they walked in a close vicinity to many.

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PostSubject: Re: Locking the library doors   Locking the library doors Icon_minitimeThu May 14, 2015 4:55 am

Imagine if Patty told everyone to run for their lives (or direct them to an exit) instead of telling students to hide under the tables, like Dave Sanders told those in the cafeteria? This has been a pretty big 'elephant in the room' for me since the very beginning of my research. Understandably no one ever questioned the way things went in the library, out of fear of being insensitive, but the question remains. Would there have been ten victims in the library?
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PostSubject: Re: Locking the library doors   Locking the library doors Icon_minitimeThu May 14, 2015 11:18 am

I think they would have moved on and looked for easier victims. Like browneyes said, everyone in the library was an easy target. Who knows why they didn't kill anyone in the cafeteria, for whatever reason they were just done killing after the library.

I work at a school and we recently had to do some training on what to do in case of an active shooter. They specifically talked about Columbine and played the 911 tape and talked about how lives probably would have been saved if they'd either barricaded the doors or evacuated. They gave examples of another shooting where classrooms that were harder to get into had less victims than others without barricades. They were careful not to blame Patty but they definitely used it as an example of what not to do.
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PostSubject: Re: Locking the library doors   Locking the library doors Icon_minitimeThu May 14, 2015 2:29 pm

Peggy Dodd 000324: Peggy stated that as she made her way through the panic in the library, yelling at kids to get out, she stated "that's when I saw Dave." She stated that she saw Dave Saunders running down the main hallway that adjoins the library, motioning with his hands to "get back." She believed Dave was running in a northwest direction through the hallway, and waving his hands towards the library as if telling people to stay in the library.

Rich Long 000494: Mr. Long said that he came out in to the hallway of the conference area that leads to the main area of the library and yelled for everyone to get down, and to get down under the desks, and to stay down. He said that the students got down.


* Rich Long told students to get down under the desks and stay down.

* Dave Sanders motioned with his hands to stay in the Library.
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PostSubject: Re: Locking the library doors   Locking the library doors Icon_minitimeThu May 14, 2015 2:32 pm

ellie z wrote:
I work at a school and we recently had to do some training on what to do in case of an active shooter. They specifically talked about Columbine and played the 911 tape and talked about how lives probably would have been saved if they'd either barricaded the doors or evacuated. They gave examples of another shooting where classrooms that were harder to get into had less victims than others without barricades. They were careful not to blame Patty but they definitely used it as an example of what not to do.

Thanks for sharing this with us; I have often thought the same thing. What would make someone think that hiding (poorly) would actually help someone from being shot by an active shooter? I can sympathize with Patty, to a point, but I probably would have just said "Run for your lives!" I wonder how much Patty thinks about this, and if she could have saved more lives by acting differently. I would imagine she thinks/thought about it quite lot, I know I would.

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PostSubject: Re: Locking the library doors   Locking the library doors Icon_minitimeThu May 14, 2015 7:16 pm

Things get hectic in the heat of the moment. She was probably under the notion threats were outside as well considering shots were being fired OUTSIDE. They were sitting ducks but at the time you just don't know what's going on outside of the library. Nothing but bad luck they picked the damn library out of all places. It's easy to play Monday morning QB. Even in Sandy Hook, kids weren't running, they were hiding under desks in their rooms.
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PostSubject: Re: Locking the library doors   Locking the library doors Icon_minitimeThu May 14, 2015 11:27 pm

Hindsight is 20/20.

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PostSubject: Re: Locking the library doors   Locking the library doors Icon_minitimeMon May 18, 2015 5:14 pm

Jenn wrote:
Hindsight is 20/20.

For sure.

Hard to judge their actions given the situation.. few are prepared for anything like this. If anything I'd question the individuals for not thinking "I'm an easy target under these tables" & running for an exit.. but natural behavior would be to follow the teachers mandate.

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PostSubject: Re: Locking the library doors   Locking the library doors Icon_minitimeMon May 18, 2015 6:31 pm

Did they have any kind of lockdown/threat procedure at Columbine? Does anyone know? I know even after Columbine, when I was in school the drill was turn off lights, lock doors, hide under desks. When that's what you're taught and what a teacher says, it can be hard to go against it in the moment even when it's making you an easy target.
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PostSubject: Re: Locking the library doors   Locking the library doors Icon_minitimeWed May 20, 2015 7:46 am

In short:

Nielse panicked, but even if she stayed calm its not certain she would have acted differently. She probably thought its something liek a drug or gang related shooting outside and probably thought the greatest threat was a kid being shot by a stray bullet.
I do not think she imagined that two shooters would specifically target kids shooting at them point blank.

Locking doors is generaly a great idea and this helped save many lives in many school shootings. Such a simple but effective tactic. Expensive metal detectors IIRC never saved a single life during a shooting, unlike locked doors.

US architectural and safety comitees after Virginia Tech and Rade Lake came to the same conclusion and advocated for easy large bolt-locked doors without windows. I think the teacher's association shot that notion down though, as it woudl eb too disruptive in regular teaching days. (kids locking themselves in classrooms for no good reason etc).


As for the library... everything Eric and Dylan did during teh shooting was pretty much random and ad-hoc as they planned the massacre around the bomb explosion that did not happen.

When they first came to the cafeteria, there were many kids hiding under cafeteria tables exactly in the same manner how the kids in the library did. Why did E&D not kill them? Luck I guess. They were at that point still thinking about the bomb.

I think the reason why so many people were killed in the library was also random. I think the fact taht Kyle was sitting near the entry poitn and was obviously a special needs kid set Dylan off and he killd him. This shooting triggered all the other killings in that room if you asked me. Once they started shooting they got caugth up in it. IIRC Eric expended all his carbine ammo in the library and ended up just with a few shotgun shells in the end and Dylan expended his shotgun ammo.

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