There was a plan B

Well, I just read the "We are but we aren't psycho" book. Tim Krabbe is pretty sketchy when it comes to his own conclusions or namign causes, but one thing he does very will is list all the facts, names and dates.

Krabbe really helped me to see the whole massacre step-by-step. And I came to a colclusion opposite the one I had myself for soem years. And opposite to what was the "common consensus" on teh forums.

Eric and Dylan had a plan B. What is more, they probably knew that the bombs will not necessarily go off and that there is a real chance of the bombing part being a flop.

Why is that? First of all, they started shooting really soon after the "planned explosion time". They did not try to go to the cafeteria to "fix" the bombs or see what went wrong and only then start the massacre. They did not call the thing off and just try the next day.

Frankly, they just opened fire, very soon after the failed explosion time and without any protracted discussion among themselves. And weboth know they were equal partners in crime, its not like Eric would just say: Fuck it lets just kill people now!" and Dylan respond with: "Yes sir!" if that was't in the plan.

It was in the plan. That was frankly their contingency plan: if the bombs fails to go off, just shoot people, have fun, make your way into the cafeeria, see if the bombs an;'t be detonated manualy and if not then just shoot more people and then cops.

They certainly, despite what may be suggested by some of Eric's written statements, did not have a "tunnel vision" plan of: "kill the most amount of people in the shortest amount of time" like Cho seems to have had. They went in to have fun first and foremost, taunt, cause fear panic and chaos and get a power-trip. Bodycount in the end was secondary. This was not a race or contest.

My point is:

- They went from the "bomb first" to "shoot first" mode very quickly, without hesitation or negotiations and discussing options with one another. You could sy that it was just  Eric making an impulsive spurr-of-the-moment decison, but I doubt Dylan was just a follower to simply obey Eric thoughtlessly. This must have been agreed beforehand.

- Even inside where they were far from the bombs, they didn't just kill all the people they saw. They left a lot of peopekl alive and unhurt - both in the cafeteria and some in the library. Instead Eric tried to overthurn a book case, Dylan shot at a computer, Eric shot at lockers, both threw bombs in random places without human targets around etc. This was clearly not a "bodycount race" by design.



I know i've been a "no plan b" advocate for a ong time, but I changed my mind entirely.

Thanks for your thoughts on this, Sabratha, very interesting indeed. May I ask, what exactly in the Krabbe book changed your mind on the "no plan B" line of thought? Was it just the timeline of things, (as that has been delineated quite well in many places) or does Krabbe actually point to any evidence suggesting what the boys planned to do in the (likely) circumstance that the bombs didn't actually detonate? From their comments which have been noted in the library to the point that they didn't need to kill so many people because they were "going to blow up the school anyways," I still seem to think they had faith in the bombs going off at some point.
I tend to think while they may not have written down explicitly this "plan B" to shoot people and have "fun," they must have discussed it at length in person at some point, perhaps even on the basement tapes.

ThoughtBox wrote:

Thanks for your thoughts on this, Sabratha, very interesting indeed. May I ask, what exactly in the Krabbe book changed your mind on the "no plan B" line of thought? Was it just the timeline of things, (as that has been delineated quite well in many places) or does Krabbe actually point to any evidence suggesting what the boys planned to do in the (likely) circumstance that the bombs didn't actually detonate? From their comments which have been noted in the library to the point that they didn't need to kill so many people because they were "going to blow up the school anyways," I still seem to think they had faith in the bombs going off at some point.
I tend to think while they may not have written down explicitly this "plan B" to shoot people and have "fun," they must have discussed it at length in person at some point, perhaps even on the basement tapes.

It was mostly the whole timeline. That's one of the things I started to pay more attention to recently (example: the "how muh time was spent outside" when I was replying to the Rachel Scott thread) and Krabbe helped me to clear my mind on some stuff.

There's also me noticing that E&D first came to teh caeteria and there was still some 50 or so students hiding in the cafeteria under the tables. I kept wondering why nobody was shot then. My initial: "Oh they must have ben like 100% focused on the bombs cause that was their initial plan" explanation didn't fly under more of my own scrutiny. If the "plan A" failed and there was no plan "B" at hand, then shouldn't they just be acting more randomly? If they just wanted a high bodycount, why not just kill people in the cafeteria?

Then I realized: There was a plan B, part of whichw as try to detonate the bombs AFTER the shooting started if the clock detonators failed. Killing as many people as possible in that timeframe? Nope, wasn't part of the plan. "Style over numbers" so to speak.

The library quotes have always been problematic in all kinds of threads and debates. I for one think now that Eric was half-hoping he could still make the bomb work somehow and half just trying to scare people.

But I am now quite sue they had considered the possibility of the bombs failing to work as they hoped in the "best case scenario".

Eric did mention on the BTs that he was worried the sprinklers would work against the bombs. "I need dry weather for my fires." I'm not sure i would call it a Plan B though since shooting was always part of the plan. Originally they would just fire on survivors as they fled the cafeteria. When the bombs didnt explode they more or less just skipped that step and went straight to shooting. Dylan did go into the cafeteria however and I assume that was partially to check on the bomb. Neither of the boys would have wanted to mess with it at that point. I don't think either of them wanted to take the chance of it going off and killing them that early into the massacre.

Eric's statement "Were gonna blow up the school any way!" to me implies that they still thought there was a chance of the bombs going off. After leaving the library and returning to the cafeteria they became a lot less concerned about dying. They had gotten the killing out of their system and were ready to die. Their actions and body language on the security footage shows how desperate they were for them to detonate. Eric shooting at the tank and Dylan throwing bombs at it were acts of pure careless-ness. I often wonder had they known the bombs would have been a failure if they would have put more effort into practicing with their guns.

Quote :

They did not call the thing off and just try the next day.

Well in my opinion it was impossible:
- It was high-risky to go to the cafeteria and take the duffel bags back. They could initiate explosion by moving it or somebody could see this strange and it could attract too many attention.
- Eric uploaded some files on a school server day before, someone had to discover it at last so any delay was too risky.
- Eric left a few tapes in sight at home, a smelly gas canister under the stair and the others stuff which may have been noticed by his parents.
- If Brook's story is true (I doubt it) Eric tipped him off a few minutes before the shooting.
- A diversionary bomb was placed and went off.
- As Eric jotted in his journal 'it is point without return'. They were ready to die that day adrenaline running through their veins so it had to happen at all costs.  

Quote :

They certainly, despite what may be suggested by some of Eric's written statements, did not have a "tunnel vision" plan of: "kill the most amount of people in the shortest amount of time" like Cho seems to have had. They went in to have fun first and foremost, taunt, cause fear panic and chaos and get a power-trip. Bodycount in the end was secondary. This was not a race or contest.

Cho hadn't got any other way he was abnormal shy and taciturn and was more mentally ill than E&D so I couldn't see him as he's going through university with gun and he's talking and laughing at his victims the same in Lanza's case. E&D had an opportunity to go to the library where was a closed space and victims hadn't got any way out so they had chance and time to abuse and taunt kids. If bombs went off I'm sure they would fire at survivors without a single word and only with smiles on their faces.
They might have got some form of agreement what to do if bombs failed but I assume that all of it what happened that day was one huge improvisation.as I look at their desperation to detonate bombs, aimless wanderings through corridors and firing at walls and ceilings I don't see with these things any plans B or C at all.

There was no plan B IMO because of what 'MysteryMan' said

Also, why do you not believe Brooks' exchange with Eric took place? He's been saying the same thing for years, and nothing in his words have changed.

Also people have to take consideration is they were expecting these bombs to go off. Eric mentioned this multiple times. Dylan mentioned this. They never planned on charging the school. They were planning on shooting survivors while they waited outside similar to what Mitchell Johnson & Andrew Goldman.

Klebold: It will be the most nerve-racking 15 minutes of my life after the bombs are set and we’re waiting to charge through the school.

sororityalpha wrote:

Klebold: It will be the most nerve-racking 15 minutes of my life after the bombs are set and we’re waiting to charge through the school.

Do you think this means they were planning to enter the school after the bombs went off?

I think it was obvious they6 planed to enter the school. I think that was in fact the "rough early draft", seeing how Dylan's fantasy was just a shooting.

I think at some point Eric added the bombing part, IMHO obviously influenced by the Oklahoma bombing 2 years back.

Having said that, I think even Eric realized taht the main bombs are unreliable and I don't think either of them was shocked when these failed to go off. They very quickly went for a shooting and only later tried to set the bombs off again. So I think they did plan for a possible bomb failure, but they still were hoping to make the bomb go off "manually".

Which is also why they decided to go on a shooting first and only then try to set the bomb off "manually" - because sucess with the later would likely mean death in the produced blast.

i'm quite sure about dylan havin' manipulated eric somehow.
dylan - the "great intelligent guy" plus eric "the doer" - what else is new?

next year - 20 years - i say: GREAT!!

orange may be annoying.
however, robert from germany could habe understood the two of them (, which does definitely NOT mean, that I condone eric's and dylan's action(s) - just mentioning (some one has to "fool" fuselier plus cullen - haha)).

death in itself might be resurrection - eric was not that cynic, i guess, but - people do love dylan (the cryin' emo) even more and more.

when i attempted callin' their former high school three years ago - they had summer vacation.
mr sanders will not resurrect - still sad about it - even if lporter101 says: i'm dumb - i do not care.
i'm never goin' 2 stop philosophing and discussin' 'bout eric and dylan - they do matter and always will.

do not get the nsa and the bnd - maybe they should have talked to a. b. breivik and me.

still gratefull for the opportunity to join our discussion (sorry yumeko-chan - please do not take it personally...)

Nightshiftstalker from SL (in Berlin, Germany)

MysteryMan wrote:

Quote :

They did not call the thing off and just try the next day.

Well in my opinion it was impossible:
- It was high-risky to go to the cafeteria and take the duffel bags back. They could initiate explosion by moving it or somebody could see this strange and it could attract too many attention.
- Eric uploaded some files on a school server day before, someone had to discover it at last so any delay was too risky.
- Eric left a few tapes in sight at home, a smelly gas canister under the stair and the others stuff which may have been noticed by his parents.
- If Brook's story is true (I doubt it) Eric tipped him off a few minutes before the shooting.
- A diversionary bomb was placed and went off.
- As Eric jotted in his journal 'it is point without return'. They were ready to die that day adrenaline running through their veins so it had to happen at all costs.  

I actually don't agree with you, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. It would have been cake to grab the duffel bags and carry them back out, and if you initiated an explosion, well, that was the point of the bombs in the first place. As far as the files, it seems unlikely that anyone would have noticed them if nothing had happened. And he may have been able to retrieve and delete them. As far as the things Eric left out at home, I'm sure he could have cleaned it up quickly. And we know that the Harris' easily believed Eric's lies so the gas smell could have been explained away.

I actually think your last point, about them being ready to die, might be the most pertinent. If they had backed out that day, could they have worked up the nerve to try again?

I think there was a plan b. They began shooting at 11:19, which gave only two minutes since the bombs were due to explode for them to go from waiting to shooting. Eric and dylan surely had some type of back up plan. Either that or Dave Cullen is right and dylan panicked and wanted to go home to his mom, causing the swaggering psychopath ladies man eric to shoot a few people and put him in his place.

Wideawake wrote:

MysteryMan wrote:

Quote :

They did not call the thing off and just try the next day.

Well in my opinion it was impossible:
- It was high-risky to go to the cafeteria and take the duffel bags back. They could initiate explosion by moving it or somebody could see this strange and it could attract too many attention.
- Eric uploaded some files on a school server day before, someone had to discover it at last so any delay was too risky.
- Eric left a few tapes in sight at home, a smelly gas canister under the stair and the others stuff which may have been noticed by his parents.
- If Brook's story is true (I doubt it) Eric tipped him off a few minutes before the shooting.
- A diversionary bomb was placed and went off.
- As Eric jotted in his journal 'it is point without return'. They were ready to die that day adrenaline running through their veins so it had to happen at all costs.  

I actually don't agree with you, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. It would have been cake to grab the duffel bags and carry them back out, and if you initiated an explosion, well, that was the point of the bombs in the first place. As far as the files, it seems unlikely that anyone would have noticed them if nothing had happened. And he may have been able to retrieve and delete them. As far as the things Eric left out at home, I'm sure he could have cleaned it up quickly. And we know that the Harris' easily believed Eric's lies so the gas smell could have been explained away.

I actually think your last point, about them being ready to die, might be the most pertinent. If they had backed out that day, could they have worked up the nerve to try again?

Do you think the idea of retrieving the bombs was even talked about between them, or was NBK happening on 4/20 no matter what? I think going in and getting them would have been humiliating for the boys. Carrying those bags back out past all the people they hated and had hoped to kill would have fueled their anger more. Can you imagine if someone threw something on/at them or called them fags while they had the bombs in their hands? To let something like that slide would have been admitting they failed at what they viewed as their true purpose.

I think because of that the shooting would have happened that day either way. Neither boy could deal with anymore feelings of defeat. They both NEEDED NBK to give their lives meaning. By that point they'd fantasized about it so much that it was all they knew. There was never meant to be an after for either one of them. They would kill and they would die and they'd take the school they hated down with them. It was not a question of if but when. Did the when really matter though? Has there ever been any evidence found that stated why 4/20 was the day they chose for NBK?

Didnt Mark Manes say that Eric had wanted the ammo he bought for him to use on the 19th, but he got it to him late on the night of the 19th? If that's true then they may have already postponed the attack by a day. I can imagine they were pretty geared up and ready in the days before the attack. Waiting must have been hard for them. Perhaps they just said "Fuck it, we don't need the bombs. Its happening any way."

Quote :

Also, why do you not believe Brooks' exchange with Eric took place? He's been saying the same thing for years, and nothing in his words have changed.

I wrote about it in this thread
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Quote :

I actually don't agree with you, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. It would have been cake to grab the duffel bags and carry them back out, and if you initiated an explosion, well, that was the point of the bombs in the first place. As far as the files, it seems unlikely that anyone would have noticed them if nothing had happened. And he may have been able to retrieve and delete them. As far as the things Eric left out at home, I'm sure he could have cleaned it up quickly. And we know that the Harris' easily believed Eric's lies so the gas smell could have been explained away.

Well If you can take unnoticed two duffel bags with bombs to the school it doesn't mean than it will be the same if you want to take them back. The chance they could come across a suspicious teacher, a school worker or some familiar face whom could ask for what them those bags was likely. Of course you've right that it could have happened in a way you described it above but I'm pretty sure they never considered an option to delay NBK even if bombs would fail. As [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and I mentioned the psychological aspect was decisive and they were ready to die that die no matter what would happen on the way.

I think that tehre was a lot of commotion and if they could bing said bags in without anyone caring about it, I'm sure that taking them out was even easier.

I think one reason might be that Eric already uploaded some stuff and that they left that "CHS bomb" symbol in their house. In such circumstances, tehy probably weren't willing to risk trying again.

However, this is a lot of things to talk about if you are expecting 100% taht the bombs will go off. I'd expect them to have some sort of hurried, but not short discussion on "ok, what are we gonna do now?!" if tehre was no B plan.

The fact taht they wait for such a short time and then start shooting without any visible deliberation to me is good proof taht there was a plan B. They did take into account taht the bombs might fail to explode and they have already discussed what they would do in scuh case.

The shooting as we know it was plan B. Wait a bit, but no longer than 2 minutes atfer the planned explosion time, then start firing at people and later at some point go and try to detonate the bombs "manually".

MysteryMan wrote:

Quote :

Also, why do you not believe Brooks' exchange with Eric took place? He's been saying the same thing for years, and nothing in his words have changed.

I wrote about it in this thread
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Quote :

I actually don't agree with you, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. It would have been cake to grab the duffel bags and carry them back out, and if you initiated an explosion, well, that was the point of the bombs in the first place. As far as the files, it seems unlikely that anyone would have noticed them if nothing had happened. And he may have been able to retrieve and delete them. As far as the things Eric left out at home, I'm sure he could have cleaned it up quickly. And we know that the Harris' easily believed Eric's lies so the gas smell could have been explained away.

Well If you can take unnoticed two duffel bags with bombs to the school it doesn't mean than it will be the same if you want to take them back. The chance they could come across a suspicious teacher, a school worker or some familiar face whom could ask for what them those bags was likely. Of course you've right that it could have happened in a way you described it above but I'm pretty sure they never considered an option to delay NBK even if bombs would fail. As [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and I mentioned the psychological aspect was decisive and they were ready to die that die no matter what would happen on the way.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I completely agree with you and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] about the psychological. Physically, it would have been easy to give up. But mentally is a whole different story. I think Nirvana paints an interesting picture, carrying one of the duffel bags out and having someone throw something at them or call them a name. And I'm sure that's why they did those little things like leaving clues around and uploading the files. They made it much harder for themselves to back out.

The bombs were brought at 10:58 (first Eric, then Dylan). This can be seen on the tape from the cafeteria. Maybe they just moved the time that they blew early. Until they started shooting, it took almost 20 minutes. I think they waited until the last, in the hope that the bombs will still explode.