Who do you think originally came up with the plan? And how?

So the majority of people have this very base belief that it was Eric, the sociopath extraordinaire, who conned delicate sweet Dylan into Columbine, and from what I've been told this idea comes from Cullen's Dylan fanfiction book (I've never read it, personally, so forgive me). But I have always believed it was Dylan who came up with the "NBK" idea, and Eric was the one "conned" (for lack of a better word; Eric was easily lead IMO) into doing it with him, and doing all of the nitty gritty shit Dylan did not feel like doing/if they were caught before NBK Dylan could more easily pin it all on Eric. People seem to forget, Dylan was a very smart cookie, arguably, in my opinion, smarter than Eric.

I believe Eric's trust, dedication, and how far he'd actually go to commit a crime, was tested during the van incident BY Dylan to see if he'd be capable enough to partner up with Dyl. Eric fed into it all because 1) it fed his anger issues/insecurities and 2) he felt like he was given a "purpose". Apologies if this has been overdone, but I'd like your guys' opinions!

If I was writing a quick little thing about how I thought it was brought up it would be a pretty bad Friday at school. Them blowing off steam and playing video games. Dylan telling Eric he was getting pretty pissed off and would love to reenact NBK on the unsuspecting students at Columbine. Fast forward to Monday, Eric tells Dylan to meet him at his car after school and Eric has 10 pages of notes, a blueprint of the school and tentative dates for their day of destruction.

We don't really know if Eric was thinking about something like this before Dylan because all we have are their writings. Dylan wrote about NBK pretty early I think summer before Junior year of before.

Eric looked at Dylan as his best friend, practically his brother so I think having someone to destroy the school with and society in general was really intriguing to him. Their friendship is one of the reasons Columbine has kept my interest. Much more than the superficial ones when I was younger. Another reason I would like to see the BT, to see how they fed off of eachother and interacted. We get a second of it in HFH after the first scene with Erik V when he thanks them for helping him and they kind of turn to each other and laugh, then it cuts out.



Eric has been more of the "leader" since day one and Dylan was always the "sweet follower" Dylan hid things a LOT better than Eric.

Screamingophelia wrote:

If I was writing a quick little thing about how I thought it was brought up it would be a pretty bad Friday at school. Them blowing off steam and playing video games. Dylan telling Eric he was getting pretty pissed off and would love to reenact NBK on the unsuspecting students at Columbine. Fast forward to Monday, Eric tells Dylan to meet him at his car after school and Eric has 10 pages of notes, a blueprint of the school and tentative dates for their day of destruction.

We don't really know if Eric was thinking about something like this before Dylan because all we have are their writings. Dylan wrote about NBK pretty early I think summer before Junior year of before.

Eric looked at Dylan as his best friend, practically his brother so I think having someone to destroy the school with and society in general was really intriguing to him. Their friendship is one of the reasons Columbine has kept my interest. Much more than the superficial ones when I was younger. Another reason I would like to see the BT, to see how they fed off of eachother and interacted. We get a second of it in HFH after the first scene with Erik V when he thanks them for helping him and they kind of turn to each other and laugh, then it cuts out.



Eric has been more of the "leader" since day one and Dylan was always the "sweet follower" Dylan hid things a LOT better than Eric.

Agreed completely on how the first conversation went, however I think they both collaborated on finding out school blueprints and setting a date. Though honestly I could totally see Eric getting carried away and doing it all himself during an adrenaline fueled all-nighter.

So true about BTs needing to be released already. Aside from HFH another decent look into their friendship is the Car Wax commercial, which is what made me think of this topic to begin with. Maybe it's just me but when E&D are beating the shit out of the bike, Dylan seems much more..passionate(?) with destroying it than the guy with clearly documented anger issues.

I think it happened gradually. The pair talked at length about how much they hated the world, other people, and how they'd like to get revenge. Dylan says something like "Maybe we should just go on a killing spree. Like the movie Natural Born Killers or something." Eric asks if Dylan is serious, Dylan tells him yes. Eric says he feels the same way. At least that's how I think it might have gone down. For all we know it was the other way around. Who knows?

I will say that I'm almost 100% certain that it was Eric who envisioned the massacre as a bombing though. 

Pho3nix wrote:

I believe Eric's trust, dedication, and how far he'd actually go to commit a crime, was tested during the van incident BY Dylan to see if he'd be capable enough to partner up with Dyl. Eric fed into it all because 1) it fed his anger issues/insecurities and 2) he felt like he was given a "purpose". Apologies if this has been overdone, but I'd like your guys' opinions!

Honestly I think the van break in was an impulsive decision. Neither of them put any kind of thought into it and just took advantage of what they saw as an easy target.

QuestionMark wrote:

I think it happened gradually. The pair talked at length about how much they hated the world, other people, and how they'd like to get revenge. Dylan says something like "Maybe we should just go on a killing spree. Like the movie Natural Born Killers or something." Eric asks if Dylan is serious, Dylan tells him yes. Eric says he feels the same way. At least that's how I think it might have gone down. For all we know it was the other way around. Who knows?

I will say that I'm almost 100% certain that it was Eric who envisioned the massacre as a bombing though. 

Pho3nix wrote:

I believe Eric's trust, dedication, and how far he'd actually go to commit a crime, was tested during the van incident BY Dylan to see if he'd be capable enough to partner up with Dyl. Eric fed into it all because 1) it fed his anger issues/insecurities and 2) he felt like he was given a "purpose". Apologies if this has been overdone, but I'd like your guys' opinions!

Honestly I think the van break in was an impulsive decision. Neither of them put any kind of thought into it and just took advantage of what they saw as an easy target.

It was probably more gradual I agree. There had to have been a moment where they solidified it, maybe when they picked the date?

Pho3nix wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

If I was writing a quick little thing about how I thought it was brought up it would be a pretty bad Friday at school. Them blowing off steam and playing video games. Dylan telling Eric he was getting pretty pissed off and would love to reenact NBK on the unsuspecting students at Columbine. Fast forward to Monday, Eric tells Dylan to meet him at his car after school and Eric has 10 pages of notes, a blueprint of the school and tentative dates for their day of destruction.

We don't really know if Eric was thinking about something like this before Dylan because all we have are their writings. Dylan wrote about NBK pretty early I think summer before Junior year of before.

Eric looked at Dylan as his best friend, practically his brother so I think having someone to destroy the school with and society in general was really intriguing to him. Their friendship is one of the reasons Columbine has kept my interest. Much more than the superficial ones when I was younger. Another reason I would like to see the BT, to see how they fed off of eachother and interacted. We get a second of it in HFH after the first scene with Erik V when he thanks them for helping him and they kind of turn to each other and laugh, then it cuts out.



Eric has been more of the "leader" since day one and Dylan was always the "sweet follower" Dylan hid things a LOT better than Eric.

Agreed completely on how the first conversation went, however I think they both collaborated on finding out school blueprints and setting a date. Though honestly I could totally see Eric getting carried away and doing it all himself during an adrenaline fueled all-nighter.

So true about BTs needing to be released already. Aside from HFH another decent look into their friendship is the Car Wax commercial, which is what made me think of this topic to begin with. Maybe it's just me but when E&D are beating the shit out of the bike, Dylan seems much more..passionate(?) with destroying it than the guy with clearly documented anger issues.

Yea, someone asks Eric something and I think Dylan is still beating the bike, then hits it again before going off camera. He also yells when the computer misses the bike.

I believe both were having very tentative discussions about it for a LONG time. I feel as though Dylan was more obsessed with Natural Born Killers than Eric was, the sunglasses, the hair etc. and probably imagined that he WAS Mickey, having the power to finally get back at people who had dissed him in the past. Whilst watching it he might have been saying to Eric "Imagine if that was blah blah?" They would have had a good laugh but I think in the backs of their minds they actually wish they COULD do something like that, maybe not as grandiose at that point.

I think the next step was going on those prank missions. That was Eric's idea. The explosives and the military role-play would have appealed to him greatly. However, fun as they were it didn't fulfil their wish that they would be noticed and feared like they should have been (according to their beliefs). So Eric puts it on his website. He wants people to KNOW what he's doing and be frightened of him, even if only his friends know about it, it would still give him kudos to think that people would be thinking that he was hardcore.

So why the massacre? They were leaving Columbine anyway, why not carry on with the silly pranks? They had one year left and they spent the majority of it planning a shooting massacre. I would be very curious to find out what that sticking point was that made them believe that they didn't have a future anymore and that it was pointless to carry on and go to college or into the army. You could say it was depression but I think it was more than that, plenty of people get depressed and they don't commit mass murder from it.

Something big or a soul crushing realisation happened to both of them. Maybe it was as simple as moving away from home and the fear that they would be friendless. Maybe it was a feeling of crushing failure (Dylan liked to mentally beat himself up over little things whilst Eric hated the humiliation involved in failing). Who knows?

I wonder if it started as a joke to them and then slowly turned into a real thing. It had to have been gradual. Regardless of who suggested the idea first, you don't sincerely propose killing a bunch of people and yourself to someone without feeling them out first.

MalonsMilk wrote:

Something big or a soul crushing realisation happened to both of them. Maybe it was as simple as moving away from home and the fear that they would be friendless. Maybe it was a feeling of crushing failure (Dylan liked to mentally beat himself up over little things whilst Eric hated the humiliation involved in failing). Who knows?

Unfortunately "Who knows?" is all to common in Columbine. The truth is no one will ever know the real reason why two kids decided to do something so awful. We can speculate, and have for 18 + years(and will be for countless years to come), yet we are no closer to true understanding. The only two people who have all the answers are long since dead and gone.

Just another topic we can only speculate on, SG is correct.

MalonsMilk wrote:

I would be very curious to find out what that sticking point was that made them believe that they didn't have a future anymore and that it was pointless to carry on and go to college or into the army.

I get the feeling that it wasn't about having a future or a normal life to them. They didn't care about having a future where they would just become another "zombie", another face in the crowd. They wanted to stand out, and NBK was how they were going to do it.

QuestionMark wrote:

MalonsMilk wrote:

I would be very curious to find out what that sticking point was that made them believe that they didn't have a future anymore and that it was pointless to carry on and go to college or into the army.

I get the feeling that it wasn't about having a future or a normal life to them. They didn't care about having a future where they would just become another "zombie", another face in the crowd. They wanted to stand out, and NBK was how they were going to do it.

They may have been scared of life after high school and not even realized it. But either way, they were both fairly certain that life beyond April 1999 just wasn't for them.

Just had a look at a transcript of the Basement Tapes and they state that they had it planned before Kentucky and Oregon shootings. The Oregon one is Kip Kinkel the Kentucky one happened all the way back in December 1997.

Definitely a long time in the works!

MalonsMilk wrote:

Just had a look at a transcript of the Basement Tapes and they state that they had it planned before Kentucky and Oregon shootings. The Oregon one is Kip Kinkel the Kentucky one happened all the way back in December 1997.

Definitely a long time in the works!

And you're going to take them at their word? I'm not saying that they're outright liars but they could easily be remembering the dates wrong.

The evidence we have leans toward Dylan coming up with NBK. He writes in his journal about going NBK with a mystery lady then a few months later Eric starts his journal.

Dylan probably realized that getting this chick on board was pure fantasy, so he floated the idea to Eric.

W.A.R. wrote:

The evidence we have leans toward Dylan coming up with NBK. He writes in his journal about going NBK with a mystery lady then a few months later Eric starts his journal.

Dylan probably realized that getting this chick on board was pure fantasy, so he floated the idea to Eric.

Agreed.  If you go ONLY on the evidence left behind, then it is clear that Dylan did come up with it.

I know A LOT of people will say but Eric could have came up with it, and Dylan just wrote about it first.  Dylan wanted NBK to be with a girl, not Eric.  That was his fantasy, to die with his dream girl during a spree killing.

When he knew that was NEVER going to happen is likely when Eric became Dylan's only realistic choice.

While I agree that Dylan may have had the idea first, I don't think it took much convincing for Eric and I can't say that Eric didn't also have thoughts of doing something separate from Dylan. Maybe Dylan just inspired the idea within Eric and allowed it to be more concrete to him.

I still stand by my opinion that Eric motivated Dylan to see things through, even if it was Dylan's idea originally.

Littlelo wrote:

I still stand by my opinion that Eric motivated Dylan to see things through, even if it was Dylan's idea originally.

Agreed. Dylan was a slacker, plain and simple. He had no follow through, he couldn't even kill himself.

No one knows how or when the conversation started or ended, but Eric took Dylan's original idea of a spree killing and molded it to fit himself. In my opinion Dylan was like "What the hell, I'll be dead either way" so he let Eric run with it.

Eric planned it, for the most part bankrolled it. etc. While Dylan just went with the flow knowing he would still get what he wanted out of the deal.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

I still stand by my opinion that Eric motivated Dylan to see things through, even if it was Dylan's idea originally.

Agreed. Dylan was a slacker, plain and simple. He had no follow through, he couldn't even kill himself.

No one knows how or when the conversation started or ended, but Eric took Dylan's original idea of a spree killing and molded it to fit himself. In my opinion Dylan was like "What the hell, I'll be dead either way" so he let Eric run with it.

Eric planned it, for the most part bankrolled it. etc. While Dylan just went with the flow knowing he would still get what he wanted out of the deal.

Exactly!!

Pho3nix wrote:

So the majority of people have this very base belief that it was Eric, the sociopath extraordinaire, who conned delicate sweet Dylan into Columbine, and from what I've been told this idea comes from Cullen's Dylan fanfiction book (I've never read it, personally, so forgive me). But I have always believed it was Dylan who came up with the "NBK" idea, and Eric was the one "conned" (for lack of a better word; Eric was easily lead IMO) into doing it with him, and doing all of the nitty gritty shit Dylan did not feel like doing/if they were caught before NBK Dylan could more easily pin it all on Eric. People seem to forget, Dylan was a very smart cookie, arguably, in my opinion, smarter than Eric.

I believe Eric's trust, dedication, and how far he'd actually go to commit a crime, was tested during the van incident BY Dylan to see if he'd be capable enough to partner up with Dyl. Eric fed into it all because 1) it fed his anger issues/insecurities and 2) he felt like he was given a "purpose". Apologies if this has been overdone, but I'd like your guys' opinions!

Dylan came up with the plan. There's proof to back this up too. I also don't think Eric was the mastermind. I feel Dylan had as much input into the shooting as Eric, he was just lazy and left all the legwork up to Eric while he sat around and wrote in his journal.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

I still stand by my opinion that Eric motivated Dylan to see things through, even if it was Dylan's idea originally.

Agreed. Dylan was a slacker, plain and simple. He had no follow through, he couldn't even kill himself.

No one knows how or when the conversation started or ended, but Eric took Dylan's original idea of a spree killing and molded it to fit himself. In my opinion Dylan was like "What the hell, I'll be dead either way" so he let Eric run with it.

Eric planned it, for the most part bankrolled it. etc. While Dylan just went with the flow knowing he would still get what he wanted out of the deal.

Then why was Dylan talking about doing a shooting with a girl BEFORE Eric?

Dylan really wasn't some little depressed kid. The guy was talking about shooting others and was writing violent assignments for school long before Eric came into the picture.

Littlelo wrote:

While I agree that Dylan may have had the idea first, I don't think it took much convincing for Eric and I can't say that Eric didn't also have thoughts of doing something separate from Dylan. Maybe Dylan just inspired the idea within Eric and allowed it to be more concrete to him.

I still stand by my opinion that Eric motivated Dylan to see things through, even if it was Dylan's idea originally.

If Eric had thoughts "separate from Dylan" he'd have written about them long before he did. Eric was a follower, he couldn't think of this stuff by himself.

QuestionMark wrote:

MalonsMilk wrote:

Just had a look at a transcript of the Basement Tapes and they state that they had it planned before Kentucky and Oregon shootings. The Oregon one is Kip Kinkel the Kentucky one happened all the way back in December 1997.

Definitely a long time in the works!

And you're going to take them at their word? I'm not saying that they're outright liars but they could easily be remembering the dates wrong.

I think they probably started planning it around the time Kip Kinkel went on his little rampage, March-May 1998.

Ivan wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

While I agree that Dylan may have had the idea first, I don't think it took much convincing for Eric and I can't say that Eric didn't also have thoughts of doing something separate from Dylan. Maybe Dylan just inspired the idea within Eric and allowed it to be more concrete to him.

I still stand by my opinion that Eric motivated Dylan to see things through, even if it was Dylan's idea originally.

If Eric had thoughts "separate from Dylan" he'd have written about them long before he did. Eric was a follower, he couldn't think of this stuff by himself.

We don't know that we have everything both boys wrote, so I can't say that I know for sure either way. Just an opinion.

I think they both wanted to hurt themselves and others.

Littlelo wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

While I agree that Dylan may have had the idea first, I don't think it took much convincing for Eric and I can't say that Eric didn't also have thoughts of doing something separate from Dylan. Maybe Dylan just inspired the idea within Eric and allowed it to be more concrete to him.

I still stand by my opinion that Eric motivated Dylan to see things through, even if it was Dylan's idea originally.

If Eric had thoughts "separate from Dylan" he'd have written about them long before he did. Eric was a follower, he couldn't think of this stuff by himself.

We don't know that we have everything both boys wrote, so I can't say that I know for sure either way. Just an opinion.

I think they both wanted to hurt themselves and others.

Dylan is the only one who wiped his hard-drive. Eric never did, he left everything open to the public.

So if anything we don't have everything DYLAN wrote.

Ivan wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

While I agree that Dylan may have had the idea first, I don't think it took much convincing for Eric and I can't say that Eric didn't also have thoughts of doing something separate from Dylan. Maybe Dylan just inspired the idea within Eric and allowed it to be more concrete to him.

I still stand by my opinion that Eric motivated Dylan to see things through, even if it was Dylan's idea originally.

If Eric had thoughts "separate from Dylan" he'd have written about them long before he did. Eric was a follower, he couldn't think of this stuff by himself.

We don't know that we have everything both boys wrote, so I can't say that I know for sure either way. Just an opinion.

I think they both wanted to hurt themselves and others.

Dylan is the only one who wiped his hard-drive. Eric never did, he left everything open to the public.

So if anything we don't have everything DYLAN wrote.

Agreed, we have everything on Eric's computer. But we don't know if he kept every paper he ever wrote on for years prior to the shooting. I'm not saying I disagree with you on Dylan originating the idea. I just don't think we can make definitive statements.

Littlelo wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

While I agree that Dylan may have had the idea first, I don't think it took much convincing for Eric and I can't say that Eric didn't also have thoughts of doing something separate from Dylan. Maybe Dylan just inspired the idea within Eric and allowed it to be more concrete to him.

I still stand by my opinion that Eric motivated Dylan to see things through, even if it was Dylan's idea originally.

If Eric had thoughts "separate from Dylan" he'd have written about them long before he did. Eric was a follower, he couldn't think of this stuff by himself.

We don't know that we have everything both boys wrote, so I can't say that I know for sure either way. Just an opinion.

I think they both wanted to hurt themselves and others.

Dylan is the only one who wiped his hard-drive. Eric never did, he left everything open to the public.

So if anything we don't have everything DYLAN wrote.

Agreed, we have everything on Eric's computer. But we don't know if he kept every paper he ever wrote on for years prior to the shooting. I'm not saying I disagree with you on Dylan originating the idea. I just don't think we can make definitive statements.

Eric doesn't seem like a kid that would have kept a journal until the planning of the shooting. Just something I think though.

Ivan wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

While I agree that Dylan may have had the idea first, I don't think it took much convincing for Eric and I can't say that Eric didn't also have thoughts of doing something separate from Dylan. Maybe Dylan just inspired the idea within Eric and allowed it to be more concrete to him.

I still stand by my opinion that Eric motivated Dylan to see things through, even if it was Dylan's idea originally.

If Eric had thoughts "separate from Dylan" he'd have written about them long before he did. Eric was a follower, he couldn't think of this stuff by himself.

We don't know that we have everything both boys wrote, so I can't say that I know for sure either way. Just an opinion.

I think they both wanted to hurt themselves and others.

Dylan is the only one who wiped his hard-drive. Eric never did, he left everything open to the public.

So if anything we don't have everything DYLAN wrote.

Agreed, we have everything on Eric's computer. But we don't know if he kept every paper he ever wrote on for years prior to the shooting. I'm not saying I disagree with you on Dylan originating the idea. I just don't think we can make definitive statements.

Eric doesn't seem like a kid that would have kept a journal until the planning of the shooting. Just something I think though.

Hmm that's a good point. Like, once the idea was already formed he had the idea of gaining infamy so he decided to start a journal to create his "legacy".

Ivan wrote:

If Eric had thoughts "separate from Dylan" he'd have written about them long before he did. Eric was a follower, he couldn't think of this stuff by himself.

I have to disagree with that. Dylan wanted a spree killing with a girl. But Eric was the one who took control of the plan when it was pitched to him, and turned it into a bombing. I believe the bombs were ALL Eric. Dylan had very little if nothing to do with them.

I agree that Dylan came up with the original plan, yet Eric took that and turned it into what it became. He was the one who did the planning, the diagrams, all the lists, all the experiments, etc. Dylan let him, because all he cared about was still getting to die at the end of it. So in my opinion Eric apparently thought of A LOT of things all on his own.

I agree with SG!!

Ivan wrote:

Eric doesn't seem like a kid that would have kept a journal until the planning of the shooting. Just something I think though.

IIRC he had his little website up where he doxed people and made threats to Brooks Brown and others. After the van break-in I think he shut it down, though I'm not sure.

Ivan wrote:

If Eric had thoughts "separate from Dylan" he'd have written about them long before he did. Eric was a follower, he couldn't think of this stuff by himself. 

While I agree that Eric couldn't think of this on his own, I have to disagree that Dylan was the one who came up with the idea to bomb the school. Eric got the idea to use bombs from the Oklahoma City Bombing.

Yes, Eric was very type A! Dylan pitched and Eric ran with it. Being low key, I doubt Dylan would have ever done anything on his own, it was all pure fantasy for him. Eric geared him up to see it through and upped the ante with the bombs and gaining intelligence on the school etc. I think Eric really enjoyed all of it, like one big top secret mission.

MalonsMilk wrote:

Yes, Eric was very type A! Dylan pitched and Eric ran with it. Being low key, I doubt Dylan would have ever done anything on his own, it was all pure fantasy for him. Eric geared him up to see it through and upped the ante with the bombs and gaining intelligence on the school etc. I think Eric really enjoyed all of it, like one big top secret mission.

I agree wholeheartedly. Eric had grown up playing games about being in war and taking out the enemy. He planned NBK out like he had with the all Rebel Missions. In his journal he even says that everything about NBK seemed like a movie to him. Because that is the way he planned it. In my opinion he was playing a roll he designed for himself.

QuestionMark wrote:

IIRC he had his little website up where he doxed people and made threats to Brooks Brown and others. After the van break-in I think he shut it down, though I'm not sure.

Still not really a journal IMO. Just a rant filled Geocities website that he made to be "cool".

QuestionMark wrote:

While I agree that Eric couldn't think of this on his own, I have to disagree that Dylan was the one who came up with the idea to bomb the school. Eric got the idea to use bombs from the Oklahoma City Bombing.

Dylan didn't think of bombing the school, that was totally on Eric (who didn't get the idea himself, he got it from the Timothy McVeigh like you already stated).

Dylan did probably think of the shooting part though and that's what they actually did. Dylan seemed to be enjoying himself more than Eric during the shooting too who probably just wanted to do a bombing and kill a few people with guns. I get the impression after the library Eric was pretty disappointed with what actually happened. His bloodlust was quenched and he was left feeling empty. Dylan probably didn't care either way, he got what he wanted.

I agree that it probably happened gradually... most likely Dylans idea and Eric added to it to spurn it into what it turned out as... Eric always liked the idea of killing someone , Dylan fuelled it , they became a violently focused duo.