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 Sparing Evan Todd

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PostSubject: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 5:33 am

I'm sure there is already a thread for this but I can't locate it.

Why did Dylan spare Evan Todd? Here are two theories that I've seen kicked around:

1) They couldn't shoot anyone they talked to or made eye-contact with.

2) Dylan didn't really want to kill anyone and Eric was reeling from his broken nose.

Here is my take on these two theories:

1) They talked to and/or made eye-contact with a whole lot of people they shot, including Isaiah, John Tomlin, Val Schnurr, Cassie, Daniel Mauser. According to Evan Todd himself they talked to just about everyone they shot. He said "They went around asking people questions and no matter how they answered, they shot them." Someone else, can't remember who said "they went around having conversations with people and then they shot them." So even if they didn't talk to everyone or even a majority they talked enough to make this theory potentially refutable. We know for sure they taunted people after they shot them and laughed at the carnage so I am suspect of this "all too human" paradigm.

2) I do not believe this about Dylan because I have heard the library tapes. The only thing that slowed him down was the crappy weapons he had. I will buy the bit about Eric though, I think Evan Todd would be dead right now if Eric had not broken his nose. However, I will add that this is what Todd suggests in his Ricki Lake interview -- that Dylan had a sudden attack of conscience. So this gives the the some weight. Another thing that gives it weight is that Dylan fired away from Todd blasting out a TV.

The one problem is that Todd clearly lies in the interview when he says that he told Dylan "I've been good to you and everyone in this school and you know it." This is indirect contradiction to what is on the library 911 tape. Todd merely says "I don't have a problem with you guys..."

Anyone have any thoughts here?

I admit I am puzzled.

scratch

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 6:41 am

Hard to be sure.

First of all, I think its obvious Dylan did not know Todd well, probably didn't know him at all. Otherwise he would not have asked him the "Are you a jock?" question.

Its just a guess but I think Dylan was already done/bored with/tired of killing at this point. I think Todd (wether he did it on purpose or not) did the rigth thing by looking Dylan in the eye and started talking to him. This imho got engaged Dylan in the conversation and even though Todd made Dylan angry, this did not result in his death.

One thing that always stood out to me is taht the most talkative people in the library survived, often against the odds. Shnurr was already shot, bleeding, she fell out from the table and was in full view of the shooters. She also drew their attention with her cries and mentioning God. Killing her was very easy. But she engaged them in a conversation and (purposely or not) confused and stalled the shooters until they lost interest and went their merry way.

While far less effective (but also in a much safer starting situation), there's a paralell here between Todd and Shnurr. Both engage dthe shooters in conversation and eye contact, stalled them (on purpose or not) and survived.

Overall Dylan's actions during the shooting are hardly consistent. He seems to have acted on impulse, not any precise plan.

Gustopoet2 wrote:
The only thing that slowed him down was the crappy weapons he had. I will buy the bit about Eric though, I think Evan Todd would be dead right now if Eric had not broken his nose. However, I will add that this is what Todd suggests in his Ricki Lake interview -- that Dylan had a sudden attack of conscience.

Eric's injury disoriented him, that's probably why he started a conversation with Bree, isntead of just throwing an insult at her and shooting her. He repeated the same question "Do you wanna die?" several times, which is frankly a perfect indication he was dazed or in shock over the sudden injury. Dylan was even rerported once telling Eric to kill Bree, but Eric was probably too disoriented to register Dylan's comment.

As for conscience... who knows. Its just speculation, but perhaps the dynamioc changed after Eric spaced out. Dylan wa sin there for suicide first and foremost. With Eric spaced out, Dylan for the first time in the shooting found himself the driving force and the de-facto decision maker.

Remember that after talking to Todd, Dylan looked at Eric and said: "I’m going to let this fat fuck live. You can kill him if you want"

This in fact, can be in a way interpreted as asking for permission in a way: "I am not gonna kill this kid, you ok with that?".

Eriuc was till spaced out, so Dylan didn't kill Todd and later on picked up on Eric's comment to go to the commons and they left.

This is of course speculation and my interpretation of the facts. But I do think Dylan was trying to impress Eric and once he saw Eric is in no shape to enjoy it, he stopped and then they went out of the library. Once Eric was back in some sort of shape, all easy targets alreayd left or were pretending to be dead in a convincing manner.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

The one problem is that Todd clearly lies in the interview when he says that he told Dylan "I've been good to you and everyone in this school and you know it." This is indirect contradiction to what is on the library 911 tape. Todd merely says "I don't have a problem with you guys..."
I don't think its so much a lie, as its just him re-telling teh story from memory. He probably said the short version in reality. Then in an interview he just extrapolates on the meaning if you ask me. The content remains the same - he basiclaly said he's not their enemy and never was.
People after a traumatic event often confuse the timing or can't quote word-by-word, but in the end the content of his statement remains similar in both versions, at least in my book.

Quote :
They talked to and/or made eye-contact with a whole lot of people they shot, including Isaiah, John Tomlin, Val Schnurr, Cassie, Daniel Mauser. According to Evan Todd himself they talked to just about everyone they shot.

There's a difference here. They talked with Savage, Todd and Shnurr. They talked at Tomlin, Mauser, Shoels or Cassie. There was no dialogue with the later group. They just threw comments, taunts or insults at them.

This is vital.

The question is: did they start a dialogue with some people because they already decide this person is gonna live and thus "worth talking with"? Or did havign a dialogue qwith teh shooters actually made them not kill you? I'm leaning to the latter.

I think engaging in a dialogue with the shooters made you a "witness" in their eyes, someone to "leave a lasting impression" on, rather than a target to be shot and killed. This theory is based on my assumption that the shooting was in fact psychopathic in nature - that the shooters got off on power, control and dominance over their victims and that they derived pleasure at mentally scarring people.

This is consistent with some of the things they did before the shooting. Eric's "amazing foreshadowing" etc.

Of course, remember that there was a fire alarm and some conversations might not have been heard by anyone who survived and not caught on tape cause they were too quiet or too far from the phone to register with the fire alarm in the background.

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 12:24 pm

Never hurts to personalize things & defer the shooters angst.. Evan Todd naturally stroked the the right emotions in Dylan.

Other factors play in, but Todd's dialogue certainly exposed DK's humanity side to some degree.
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 1:47 pm

They talked about being godlike, and it is as godlike to decide if someone can live as if they can die. Maybe this was something to do with it (just speculating of course, I could be completely wrong but I guess we will never know).

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 2:17 pm

eli27 wrote:
They talked about being godlike, and it is as godlike to decide if someone can live as if they can die. Maybe this was something to do with it (just speculating of course, I could be completely wrong but I guess we will never know).

Yes, I have said this before.

They weren't like Cho or Lanza, who shot anything that moved ... they wanted to live on in the memories of their victims. In fact, I'd argue that Eric and Dylan are the best-known school shooters because of the people they spared - they left some folks alive to tell the world what it was like to be in that library on that day.

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 3:38 pm

LPorter101 wrote:
In fact, I'd argue that Eric and Dylan are the best-known school shooters because of the people they spared - they left some folks alive to tell the world what it was like to be in that library on that day.

I think that they're best-known at least in good part thanks to the fact that they were a duo. There's something I guess many people find fascinating in the thought that two good friends plotted this together for so long and never betrayed the other.

Think about it: if this was the story of Eric Harris, lone school shooter, or the story of Dylan Klebold, lone school shooter, do you honestly think you'd be just as drawn to the whole thing as you currently are? (Question directed to everyone.)

In my case I know the answer is "no".


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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 3:42 pm

Sabratha wrote:
Hard to be sure.

First of all, I think its obvious Dylan did not know Todd well, probably didn't know him at all. Otherwise he would not have asked him the "Are you a jock?" question.

Its just a guess but I think Dylan was already done/bored with/tired of killing at this point. I think Todd (wether he did it on purpose or not) did the rigth thing by looking Dylan in the eye and started talking to him. This imho got engaged Dylan in the conversation and even though Todd made Dylan angry, this did not result in his death.

One thing that always stood out to me is taht the most talkative people in the library survived, often against the odds. Shnurr was already shot, bleeding, she fell out from the table and was in full view of the shooters. She also drew their attention with her cries and mentioning God. Killing her was very easy. But she engaged them in a conversation and (purposely or not) confused and stalled the shooters until they lost interest and went their merry way.

While far less effective (but also in a much safer starting situation), there's a paralell here between Todd and Shnurr. Both engage dthe shooters in conversation and eye contact, stalled them (on purpose or not) and survived.  

Overall Dylan's actions during the shooting are hardly consistent. He seems to have acted on impulse, not any precise plan.

Gustopoet2 wrote:
The only thing that slowed him down was the crappy weapons he had. I will buy the bit about Eric though, I think Evan Todd would be dead right now if Eric had not broken his nose. However, I will add that this is what Todd suggests in his Ricki Lake interview -- that Dylan had a sudden attack of conscience.

Eric's injury disoriented him, that's probably why he started a conversation with Bree, isntead of just throwing an insult at her and shooting her. He repeated the same question "Do you wanna die?" several times, which is frankly a perfect indication he was dazed or in shock over the sudden injury. Dylan was even rerported once telling Eric to kill Bree, but Eric was probably too disoriented to register Dylan's comment.

As for conscience... who knows. Its just speculation, but perhaps the dynamioc changed after Eric spaced out. Dylan wa sin there for suicide first and foremost. With Eric spaced out, Dylan for the first time in the shooting found himself the driving force and the de-facto decision maker.

Remember that after talking to Todd, Dylan looked at Eric and said: "I’m going to let this fat fuck live. You can kill him if you want"

This in fact, can be in a way interpreted as asking for permission in a way: "I am not gonna kill this kid, you ok with that?".

Eriuc was till spaced out, so Dylan didn't kill Todd and later on picked up on Eric's comment to go to the commons and they left.

This is of course speculation and my interpretation of the facts. But I do think Dylan was trying to impress Eric and once he saw Eric is in no shape to enjoy it, he stopped and then they went out of the library. Once Eric was back in some sort of shape, all easy targets alreayd left or were pretending to be dead in a convincing manner.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

The one problem is that Todd clearly lies in the interview when he says that he told Dylan "I've been good to you and everyone in this school and you know it." This is indirect contradiction to what is on the library 911 tape. Todd merely says "I don't have a problem with you guys..."
I don't think its so much a lie, as its just him re-telling teh story from memory. He probably said the short version in reality. Then in an interview he just extrapolates on the meaning if you ask me. The content remains the same - he basiclaly said he's not their enemy and never was.
People after a traumatic event often confuse the timing or can't quote word-by-word, but in the end the content of his statement remains similar in both versions, at least in my book.

Quote :
They talked to and/or made eye-contact with a whole lot of people they shot, including Isaiah, John Tomlin, Val Schnurr, Cassie, Daniel Mauser. According to Evan Todd himself they talked to just about everyone they shot.

There's a difference here. They talked with Savage, Todd and Shnurr. They talked at Tomlin, Mauser, Shoels or Cassie. There was no dialogue with the later group. They just threw comments, taunts or insults at them.

This is vital.

The question is: did they start a dialogue with some people because they already decide this person is gonna live and thus "worth talking with"? Or did havign a dialogue qwith teh shooters actually made them not kill you? I'm leaning to the latter.

I think engaging in a dialogue with the shooters made you a "witness" in their eyes, someone to "leave a lasting impression" on, rather than a target to be shot and killed. This theory is based on my assumption that the shooting was in fact psychopathic in nature - that the shooters got off on power, control and dominance over their victims and that they derived pleasure at mentally scarring people.

This is consistent with some of the things they did before the shooting. Eric's "amazing foreshadowing" etc.

Of course, remember that there was a fire alarm and some conversations might not have been heard by anyone who survived and not caught on tape cause they were too quiet or too far from the phone to register with the fire alarm in the background.

Well said. I'm inclined to agree with pretty much everything you say here. I agree they wanted to mentally scar people; I think I agree on Dylan losing interest in shooting people. I am in agreement that Eric was dizzy and fixated on the bombs.

I think John Tomlin talked back to them "Stop this! Haven't you done enough!" And they answered by blowing his brains out. So yeah those who challenged their authority were shot; those who seemed to submit were sometimes spared.

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 3:43 pm

eli27 wrote:
They talked about being godlike, and it is as godlike to decide if someone can live as if they can die. Maybe this was something to do with it (just speculating of course, I could be completely wrong but I guess we will never know).

Yep. This also feeds into the target-preference convo, but you are 100% correct here.

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 3:44 pm

lio45 wrote:


Think about it: if this was the story of Eric Harris, lone school shooter, or the story of Dylan Klebold, lone school shooter, do you honestly think you'd be just as drawn to the whole thing as you currently are? (Question directed to everyone.)

In my case I know the answer is "no".



You should start a thread for this conversation!

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 3:50 pm

Sabratha wrote:
Its just a guess but I think Dylan was already done/bored with/tired of killing at this point.

Yeah, that's also my opinion. I'm actually very convinced that I'm right on that one.

It seems clear to me that killing people had gotten old by that point. (As we know, they were heard by several witnesses discussing that they no longer found a thrill in shooting their victims.)

They had fun, they finally had what they'd been dreaming of for so long, but by then the adrenaline rush was mostly over. Plus, let's not forget it's physically taxing to shoot people like that. For these two frail teens, carrying the gear, reloading, just the weight of the guns... plus the fact they kinda had to be on their guard as well, and I'm sure they were -- pretty much all the time. They weren't physically in great shape, so after a while of rampage, they will have grown tired of it both physically and mentally.

(I was in the Army for a few years, and I'm very fit... I can tell you these things are definitely not as easy in real life as it is when you're playing Doom.)


And we know they did not care at all about having the highest kill count as possible, since they left most of the people in the library absolutely unscathed. (Contrast that to Cho's modus operandi.)







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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 4:08 pm

lio45 wrote:
Sabratha wrote:
Its just a guess but I think Dylan was already done/bored with/tired of killing at this point.

Yeah, that's also my opinion. I'm actually very convinced that I'm right on that one.

It seems clear to me that killing people had gotten old by that point. (As we know, they were heard by several witnesses discussing that they no longer found a thrill in shooting their victims.)

They had fun, they finally had what they'd been dreaming of for so long, but by then the adrenaline rush was mostly over. Plus, let's not forget it's physically taxing to shoot people like that. For these two frail teens, carrying the gear, reloading, just the weight of the guns... plus the fact they kinda had to be on their guard as well, and I'm sure they were -- pretty much all the time. They weren't physically in great shape, so after a while of rampage, they will have grown tired of it both physically and mentally.

(I was in the Army for a few years, and I'm very fit... I can tell you these things are definitely not as easy in real life as it is when you're playing Doom.)


And we know they did not care at all about having the highest kill count as possible, since they left most of the people in the library absolutely unscathed. (Contrast that to Cho's modus operandi.)


Yeah, Eric still had an interest in making the bombs go BOOM, but Dylan just wanted to die. I can buy that. Ditto for the last volley they shot at the cops. That would be Eric's thing...

The last glimpse we get of them on the caf. tape just minutes before they die -- it is Eric who is skipping a step to go back up to the library; Dylan is lollygagging around a bit and looking at the damage. I figure that is because Eric said "Let's go back and shoot at cops!" and Dylan was like "What's the fucking point? We can't hit them."

I don't think they "discussed" the suicide until after they went back and shot at the cops. Probably they shot at them and missed and eventually Dylan was like "Reb, I'm low on ammo! It's time." Or something like that.

Being an over-achiever Eric of course was the first to suicide. Dylan lagged behind to light a Molotov and do a small, very personal sort of ritual it appears...

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 4:42 pm

Fatheroftwo wrote:
Never hurts to personalize things & defer the shooters angst..  Evan Todd naturally stroked the the right emotions in Dylan.

Other factors play in, but Todd's dialogue certainly exposed DK's humanity side to some degree.

Has to be. I have bent over backwards trying to find some other explanation, but you're right the only thing that fits is what Todd himself suggested and what you and others are saying: Dylan had empathy for Evan Todd.

The most moving thing for me in the story of Evan Todd and Dylan is when Dylan says "Trouble? You don't know what trouble is." I think right there he decided not to kill him. If you look at Evan Todd's face when he tells this bit, even he looks like he might be a little moved. A little, just maybe. It's @ around 1:47








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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 4:49 pm

lio45 wrote:
LPorter101 wrote:
In fact, I'd argue that Eric and Dylan are the best-known school shooters because of the people they spared - they left some folks alive to tell the world what it was like to be in that library on that day.

I think that they're best-known at least in good part thanks to the fact that they were a duo. There's something I guess many people find fascinating in the thought that two good friends plotted this together for so long and never betrayed the other.

Think about it: if this was the story of Eric Harris, lone school shooter, or the story of Dylan Klebold, lone school shooter, do you honestly think you'd be just as drawn to the whole thing as you currently are? (Question directed to everyone.)

In my case I know the answer is "no".



Personally I don't think that the number of shooters makes a difference to me, after all my main interest is Sandy Hook. Although, I think you are right for the majority of people - after all I don't see a Sandy Hook forum anywhere. The reason I find Sandy Hook so much more interesting is that the whole case is still so mysterious, we don't even know what Adam was doing in the months before the shooting, and his motives are much less obvious. Eric is fairly easy to figure out for the most part, so not so interesting for me, although Dylan was much more 'secretive', hence to me much more interesting.

I do also agree with LPorter though, if they had not left people to give first hand accounts of the shooting, there would not have been as much to draw people into the story of the events, which would almost definitely have taken away a lot of the interest.

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 6:30 pm

eli27 wrote:
lio45 wrote:
LPorter101 wrote:
In fact, I'd argue that Eric and Dylan are the best-known school shooters because of the people they spared - they left some folks alive to tell the world what it was like to be in that library on that day.

I think that they're best-known at least in good part thanks to the fact that they were a duo. There's something I guess many people find fascinating in the thought that two good friends plotted this together for so long and never betrayed the other.

Think about it: if this was the story of Eric Harris, lone school shooter, or the story of Dylan Klebold, lone school shooter, do you honestly think you'd be just as drawn to the whole thing as you currently are? (Question directed to everyone.)

In my case I know the answer is "no".



Personally I don't think that the number of shooters makes a difference to me, after all my main interest is Sandy Hook. Although, I think you are right for the majority of people - after all I don't see a Sandy Hook forum anywhere. The reason I find Sandy Hook so much more interesting is that the whole case is still so mysterious, we don't even know what Adam was doing in the months before the shooting, and his motives are much less obvious. Eric is fairly easy to figure out for the most part, so not so interesting for me, although Dylan was much more 'secretive', hence to me much more interesting.

I do also agree with LPorter though, if they had not left people to give first hand accounts of the shooting, there would not have been as much to draw people into the story of the events, which would almost definitely have taken away a lot of the interest.

Who is the Bree Pasquale of Virginia Tech? Of Sandy Hook?

Bree was all over TV on 4/20 ... to have this girl freaking out about what had happened really drove it home.

Then again, you might ask, who is the Bree Pasquale of, say, the Batman shooting?
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 6:57 pm

Gustopoet2 wrote:
Fatheroftwo wrote:
Never hurts to personalize things & defer the shooters angst..  Evan Todd naturally stroked the the right emotions in Dylan.

Other factors play in, but Todd's dialogue certainly exposed DK's humanity side to some degree.

Has to be. I have bent over backwards trying to find some other explanation, but you're right the only thing that fits is what Todd himself suggested and what you and others are saying: Dylan had empathy for Evan Todd.

The most moving thing for me in the story of Evan Todd and Dylan is when Dylan says "Trouble? You don't know what trouble is." I think right there he decided not to kill him. If you look at Evan Todd's face when he tells this bit, even he  looks like he might be a little moved. A little, just maybe. It's @ around 1:47







 


The main factor by far IMO that's responsible for Todd's survival is that the encounter with Todd occured at ~11:36 instead of earlier.

To let a jock live... that really requires them to be REALLY jaded by that point.

11:29 = you get killed just because you happen to be there or nearby (Kyle Velasquez, Steven Curnow). They did start the library phase with guns blazing.

Then the survival rate kinda improves a bit as time passes... people (usually inoffensive, and usually girls) who could easily be shot start to get spared for various more-or-less-good reasons, and by the end, you can even be a jock and survive.

Had Todd been spotted and interacted with at ~11:29 when the boys entered the library, I am certain he'd have been shot.

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 7:02 pm

Eric did shoot at him when they first came in. He was hit by debris. So you couldn't be more right on that point.

I still think Dylan shot Kyle on purpose, deliberately to kill a special needs kid. Kyle is practically the only one Dylan fired on alone. The other was Matt but he and Eric were firing in the same direction then.

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 7:07 pm

eli27 wrote:
I do also agree with LPorter though, if they had not left people to give first hand accounts of the shooting, there would not have been as much to draw people into the story of the events, which would almost definitely have taken away a lot of the interest.

Yeah, I also agree with LPorter on that one.

The existence of each of these (list below, not exhaustive) add at least some interest to the case:

- The witness testimonies.
- The basement tapes.
- The journals.
- The videos (Hitmen for Hire, Rampart Range).


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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 7:13 pm

Gustopoet2 wrote:
I still think Dylan shot Kyle on purpose, deliberately to kill a special needs kid. Kyle is practically the only one Dylan fired on alone. The other was Matt but he and Eric were firing in the same direction then.

Maybe that was an added bonus, but in any case, Kyle was easily THE most conspicuous target (not really well hidden and right in front of them), and at that moment (when they entered the library), they were pretty blood-thirsty and eager to kill.

After what they said out loud upon entering the library, there's no way they weren't going to start by shooting anyone who was just still there within sight (!). Eric would've gladly called that natural selection...

So, my opinion is that anyone in Kyle's place behaving like Kyle did would've gotten killed like Kyle.





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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 7:18 pm

Gustopoet2 wrote:
lio45 wrote:


Think about it: if this was the story of Eric Harris, lone school shooter, or the story of Dylan Klebold, lone school shooter, do you honestly think you'd be just as drawn to the whole thing as you currently are? (Question directed to everyone.)

In my case I know the answer is "no".



You should start a thread for this conversation!

Maybe Smile Though I'm already convinced most people would answer no.

(And the forum's so busy these days that I don't even think we need more threads right now!)
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 7:58 pm

lio45 wrote:
Gustopoet2 wrote:
I still think Dylan shot Kyle on purpose, deliberately to kill a special needs kid. Kyle is practically the only one Dylan fired on alone. The other was Matt but he and Eric were firing in the same direction then.

Maybe that was an added bonus, but in any case, Kyle was easily THE most conspicuous target (not really well hidden and right in front of them), and at that moment (when they entered the library), they were pretty blood-thirsty and eager to kill.

After what they said out loud upon entering the library, there's no way they weren't going to start by shooting anyone who was just still there within sight (!). Eric would've gladly called that natural selection...

So, my opinion is that anyone in Kyle's place behaving like Kyle did would've gotten killed like Kyle.


Sure. But maybe not by Dylan. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeSat Jul 25, 2015 2:38 am

lio45 wrote:
Gustopoet2 wrote:
lio45 wrote:


Think about it: if this was the story of Eric Harris, lone school shooter, or the story of Dylan Klebold, lone school shooter, do you honestly think you'd be just as drawn to the whole thing as you currently are? (Question directed to everyone.)

In my case I know the answer is "no".



You should start a thread for this conversation!

Maybe Smile Though I'm already convinced most people would answer no.

(And the forum's so busy these days that I don't even think we need more threads right now!)

I reckon you should go for it, I want to know too XD and I reckon more people will say yes than we think.

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 10:51 am



PLEASE tell me who said they no longer found thrill in killing.






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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 2:11 pm

I can't remember, but it was just before one of them made the comment about always wanting to stab someone.
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 2:38 pm

asloversgo wrote:
PLEASE tell me who said they no longer found thrill in killing.

I think it was Eric who said killing wasn't fun anymore, and then Dylan suggested stabbing people.

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 3:43 pm

How would Dylan know that Kyle was special needs? I think Dylan just wanted to be as cruel as possible when he was killing.

What irritates me is the way Evan Todd acted with the media after the shooting. Like he learned nothing. Then you have Patrick Ireland who told his mother when he finally could talk that she shouldn’t Hate Eric and Dylan because they were just confused.

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 3:53 pm

Screamingophelia wrote:
How would Dylan know  that Kyle was special needs? I think Dylan just wanted to be as cruel as possible when he was killing.

What irritates me is the way Evan Todd  acted with the media after the shooting. Like he learned nothing. Then you have Patrick Ireland who told his mother when he finally could talk that she shouldn’t Hate Eric and Dylan because they were just confused.
That was very sweet of Patrick but I disagree with him on the last part. Those two knew exactly what they were doing. The whole things was planned months in advance and they aimed for a much bigger death toll.

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 4:07 pm

"This is indirect contradiction to what is on the library 911 tape. Todd merely says "I don't have a problem with you guys..." "

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] how do you hear/know that?
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 4:12 pm

QuestionMark wrote:
asloversgo wrote:
PLEASE tell me who said they no longer found thrill in killing.

I think it was Eric who said killing wasn't fun anymore, and then Dylan suggested stabbing people.

What are you basing that on?
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 4:15 pm

munchkinphone wrote:
"This is indirect contradiction to what is on the library 911 tape. Todd merely says "I don't have a problem with you guys..." "

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] how do you hear/know that?

I think that’s from the transcript of the unreleased library call. If it was released in order the last thing we hear is Lauren dying and Val screaming.

Did Dylan and Eric shoot at the two separate times?

Also curious to know without looking at the transcript or subtitles how much do you all actually hear?

I hear “get up” “everybody get up” “gets shot up” a “woo hoo” and Dylan going “ha ha ha”

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 5:27 pm

Where can I find the transcript? I don't think I have read it. I can barely hear anything on the 911 call and I find it quite horrible to listen to it on high volume. The suicidephotos are nothing compared to that.
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 5:27 pm

munchkinphone wrote:
What are you basing that on?

Isn't that an established fact? At the very least it was Dylan who suggested that they start stabbing people, so I assumed it was Eric who talked about the killings not being fun anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 5:36 pm

munchkinphone wrote:
Where can I find the transcript? I don't think I have read it. I can barely hear anything on the 911 call and I find it quite horrible to listen to it on high volume. The suicidephotos are nothing compared to that.

This page has some comprehensive transcripts

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 6:19 pm

Ok, thanks. I don't hear much. I hear one of the shooters yell yeah when they enter the library and then I feel like I hear everybody get up in a deep voice.. that's about it which is weird. I remember earlier I could hear more.. Is there really only the 4 minute call and the 20 second leak? I could swear I have heard more.
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 6:51 pm

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Yeah, I've listenend to this one earlier. Do you agree with the transcript in this one? I hear almost everything it says.

This is what I hear
"Yeah"
"anybody gets (inaudible) shot/ shut up." Could be one of them interrupting the other with shut up.
"Vodka, come here"
"That bitch is so annoying"
"You guys (inaduble) now"
"Wooo"
"alright Dylan"
"Get up"
"Everybody who (inaudible) white (inaudible) up"  -sounds more like put your hands up/ get up to me(?)
"Everybody get up!" clearly Dylans voice.
"get ready to die"
"Die motherfuckers" Geez.
I hear some screaming here but no words
"Heeey" clearly Erics voice.
"I'm alright Dylan" very calm voice.. sure this is legit?
"That bitch is not staying alive, go get her" Doesn't sound like Erics voice at the beginning.

If I'm right the uploader is a member here so [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] did you enhance the audio or how did you obtain this?

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 7:03 pm

munchkinphone wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Yeah, I've listenend to this one earlier. Do you agree with the transcript in this one? I hear almost everything it says.

This is what I hear
"Yeah"
"anybody gets (inaudible) shot/ shut up." Could be one of them interrupting the other with shut up.
"Vodka, come here"
"That bitch is so annoying"
"You guys (inaduble) now"
"Wooo"
"alright Dylan"
"Get up"
"Everybody who (inaudible) white (inaudible) up"  -sounds more like put your hands up/ get up to me(?)
"Everybody get up!" clearly Dylans voice.
"get ready to die"
"Die motherfuckers" Geez.
I hear some screaming here but no words
"Heeey" clearly Erics voice.
"I'm alright Dylan" very calm voice.. sure this is legit?
"That bitch is not staying alive, go get her" Doesn't sound like Erics voice at the beginning.

If I'm right the uploader is a member here so [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] did you enhance the audio or how did you obtain this?

Odd question is the “die motherfuckers” in a growling voice. If so I can kind of make it out.

Dylan sounds different to me, terrifying . Eric sounds like he does in HFH

I’m alright may be after the nose break?
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 7:11 pm

Yeah, but the "I'm alright Dylan" is so calm and it sounds much closer so I think it can be someone talking on the other end of the phone 'cause you can hear some sounds from nearby phoneoperators sometimes.

Dylans voice is growling and sometimes screeching. I don't understand how he could hide his rage so much if this was what he was actually feeling inside.

Eric sounds more calm, I can't hear any of the peekaboos. When he says that bitch is not staying alive his voice sounds kind of different, I'm thinking he's maybe out of breath? but the the go get her sounds just like him.
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 7:18 pm

You can hear a hint of that horrible screeching voice in the car wax commercial when he says "what the hell are you doing to my bike?"
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 7:21 pm

munchkinphone wrote:
You can hear a hint of that horrible screeching voice in the car wax commercial when he says "what the hell are you doing to my bike?"

Ok, then I can hear that part too
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 7:56 pm

nobody else was killed after that though. In the CCTV cafeteria you see people run out of the side doors while Dylan casually walks by at the top of the screen, as if he didn't care. I am not entirely sure why they stopped killing. It was after Eric said something like he didn't get a kick out of killing and Dylan made the knife joke. Another theory is that it would be more of a punishment to survive that ordeal and be traumatized, then to be shot and die.
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeTue Feb 27, 2018 8:29 pm

munchkinphone wrote:
Yeah, but the "I'm alright Dylan" is so calm and it sounds much closer so I think it can be someone talking on the other end of the phone 'cause you can hear some sounds from nearby phoneoperators sometimes.

Dylans voice is growling and sometimes screeching. I don't understand how he could hide his rage so much if this was what he was actually feeling inside.

Eric sounds more calm, I can't hear any of the peekaboos. When he says that bitch is not staying alive his voice sounds kind of different, I'm thinking he's maybe out of breath? but the the go get her sounds just like him.

Which makes Dylan scarier. Or he was trying to put on a show.

He did write me the lonely man strikes out with absolute rage.

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeWed Feb 28, 2018 8:15 am

munchkinphone wrote:

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what about these?
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeWed Feb 28, 2018 9:10 am

spidEr wrote:


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what about these?

HAHA oh my god, the sound is so distorted it's impossible to tell if it's even taken from the 911 call.
But yeah I hear almost everything there, not really the "beg him" or "we're going to kill you" so clearly which shows Eric wasn't very loud.

I surely can't hear Eric say "we are going down to hell real soon". That seems like a bit of a stretch.

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeWed Feb 28, 2018 9:21 am

munchkinphone wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Yeah, I've listenend to this one earlier. Do you agree with the transcript in this one? I hear almost everything it says.

This is what I hear
"Yeah"
"anybody gets (inaudible) shot/ shut up." Could be one of them interrupting the other with shut up.
"Vodka, come here"
"That bitch is so annoying"
"You guys (inaduble) now"
"Wooo"
"alright Dylan"
"Get up"
"Everybody who (inaudible) white (inaudible) up"  -sounds more like put your hands up/ get up to me(?)
"Everybody get up!" clearly Dylans voice.
"get ready to die"
"Die motherfuckers" Geez.
I hear some screaming here but no words
"Heeey" clearly Erics voice.
"I'm alright Dylan" very calm voice.. sure this is legit?
"That bitch is not staying alive, go get her" Doesn't sound like Erics voice at the beginning.

If I'm right the uploader is a member here so [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] did you enhance the audio or how did you obtain this?

I re-uploaded it when CVA's channel was hacked. But i only added in the parts where you can hear Eric and Dylan instead of the whole 911 call. Back when CVA had it on his "Columbine Video Archives" channel, i looked trough the comments quite often and some people pointed out things that can be heard that CVA didn't add. Some of those things are "die mother fuckers!", "you guys are going to pay now", "i'm allright, Dylan" and "that bitch is not staying alive, go get her!". I am sceptical about some of these new texts. For an example, the voice at "that bitch is not staying alive, go get her!" can be heard earlier in the call but not right before that quote. But then you can hear the same voice saying "can i help you" short after "that bitch is not staying alive, go get her!" so it might be a dispatcher. I used the enchant feature in Sony Vegas but made almost no difference.
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeWed Feb 28, 2018 9:33 am

I have probably damaged my hearing a bit while trying to listen to the 911 call loud enough to try to pick out what E&D are saying.

I will also add that I think reading a transcript of what was supposedly said while trying to hear it, will sometimes trick you into hearing it too.

I have cranked up the volume, closed my eyes and tried to just listen to certain parts over and over trying to pick up voices over the background noise. I have been able to pick out a few things, but some things I just can't make out.
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeWed Feb 28, 2018 9:39 am

ShadowedGoddess wrote:
I have probably damaged my hearing a bit while trying to listen to the 911 call loud enough to try to pick out what E&D are saying.

I will also add that I think reading a transcript of what was supposedly said while trying to hear it, will sometimes trick you into hearing it too.

I have cranked up the volume, closed my eyes and tried to just listen to certain parts over and over trying to pick up voices over the background noise. I have been able to pick out a few things, but some things I just can't make out.

I agree. I always think of these like those songs you can hear backwards saying things. If you listen with subtitles you can hear it. If you have no subtitles you can't. I can hear some of the yelling but I do think that a lot of it is stuff that may be background dispatchers. Esp because some of that transcript seems to occur before Eric and Dylan were even in the library

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeWed Feb 28, 2018 9:48 am

Lizpuff wrote:
ShadowedGoddess wrote:
I have probably damaged my hearing a bit while trying to listen to the 911 call loud enough to try to pick out what E&D are saying.

I will also add that I think reading a transcript of what was supposedly said while trying to hear it, will sometimes trick you into hearing it too.

I have cranked up the volume, closed my eyes and tried to just listen to certain parts over and over trying to pick up voices over the background noise. I have been able to pick out a few things, but some things I just can't make out.

I agree.  I always think of these like those songs you can hear backwards saying things.  If you listen with subtitles you can hear it.  If you have no subtitles you can't.  I can hear some of the yelling but I do think that a lot of it is stuff that may be background dispatchers.  Esp because some of that transcript seems to occur before Eric and Dylan were even in the library

I agree as well.

There’s one part of quite a few videos that say Eric says”yeah” but it’s clearly the dispatcher for example.
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Mar 02, 2018 6:04 pm

They spared him so he would remember the "only" reason he's still alive is because they decided not to kill him.
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Mar 02, 2018 6:08 pm

Here’s another enhanced call I found.

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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeFri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 pm

Ivan wrote:
They spared him so he would remember the "only" reason he's still alive is because they decided not to kill him.

they likedplaying god like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Sparing Evan Todd   Sparing Evan Todd Icon_minitimeSun Mar 25, 2018 1:18 am

Here’s a different exchange


When Klebold asked Todd to give him one reason why he should not kill him, Todd said: "I don't want trouble." Klebold said, "You [Todd] used to call me a fag. Who's a fag now?!" The shooters continued to taunt Todd and debated killing him, but they eventually walked away.

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