Stopping Eric and Dylan.

Do you reckon there could have been less casualties at Columbine on 20th April, 1999? By this I mean, could one of the bystanders had done something to render Eric and Dylan incapable of killing anybody else at the school? Such as pinning the duo onto to the ground, or throwing an object at them, or something y'know.

There have been some mass shootings in the past where the perpetrator has been immobilized at the hands of bystanders, the most notable example of this would be in the Thurston High School shooting, where Kip Kinkel shot two students to death, only to be "subdued and disarmed by a total of seven students". Kinkel entered the school carrying 1,127 rounds of ammunition, which clearly indicates that he had intended to kill dozens more.

Going back to Columbine, and after reviewing the CCTV footage, I personally believe there were plenty of missed opportunities at stopping the duo. The best example I can think of would be when Eric is walking on top of the table in the library and he starts talking to a student underneath the table, stating "you still alive?!" I reckon somebody else within the vicinity could have knocked Eric off balance while he was distracted, causing him to fall off the table, then a few others could pin the duo down to the floor and disarm them. C'mon, there were like 56 people in that library at the time. Unfortunately, they were probably too frightened to retaliate against the shooters.

What do you reckon?

Dataverse wrote:

Do you reckon there could have been less casualties at Columbine on 20th April, 1999? By this I mean, could one of the bystanders had done something to render Eric and Dylan incapable of killing anybody else at the school? Such as pinning the duo onto to the ground, or throwing an object at them, or something y'know.

There have been some mass shootings in the past where the perpetrator has been immobilized at the hands of bystanders, the most notable example of this would be in the Thurston High School shooting, where Kip Kinkel shot two students to death, only to be "subdued and disarmed by a total of seven students". Kinkel entered the school carrying 1,127 rounds of ammunition, which clearly indicates that he had intended to kill dozens more.

Going back to Columbine, and after reviewing the CCTV footage, I personally believe there were plenty of missed opportunities at stopping the duo. The best example I can think of would be when Eric is walking on top of the table in the library and he starts talking to a student underneath the table, stating "you still alive?!" I reckon somebody else within the vicinity could have knocked Eric off balance while he was distracted, causing him to fall off the table, then a few others could pin the duo down to the floor and disarm them. C'mon, there were like 56 people in that library at the time. Unfortunately, they were probably too frightened to retaliate against the shooters.

What do you reckon?

Bystanders? Not much. I do think Val Shnurr, John Savage and Evan Todd helped to save themselves (and maybe other kids) by engaging the shooters in some sort of a discussion. This at least slowed the pace of the killing and maybe took time they would otherwise spend shooting at people.

If the whole library coordinated and rushed them all at once, they could perhaps overpower them, but some people would still have been shot during the attempt and the bodycount would still be high imho. Remember people are surprised, in shock, don't know it its a revenge killing, a random rampage, terrorist attack or if the shooters want to perhaps take people hostage and then release them after negotiations.

We know what E&D were doing, the victims didn't have that knowledge. Moreover they didn't know how poor and unreliable weapons they had, particularly Dylan.

First and foremost the police botched the job, though they were following established procedurees one needs to remember.
Basiclaly as soon as they had 6 or so armed police officers, they should have entered the school and move in twoards the sounds of the gunshots. This could have saved lives, if you ask me Sanders would have been alive if they done so. Its possible some other victims would survive or at leats some of the wounded would be in better shape.

Hochhalter in particular had spent over 40 minutes lying under the scorching sun, slowly drowning in her own blood. Its a miracle she survived so long.

Overall the police response was particularly slow and could have cost far more lives if Eric and Dylan not left the library and instead have chosen to shoot everyone inside.

I don't think they could have been stopped really.

I think the big difference between Columbine and Thurston is obviously the amount of shooters. Stopping one guy would be difficult enough but needing enough kids to get the courage to take two down is pretty unlikely.

I personally would fear running at one of them and if nobody else helped me I'd just be shot by the other.

Dataverse wrote:

Going back to Columbine, and after reviewing the CCTV footage, I personally believe there were plenty of missed opportunities at stopping the duo. The best example I can think of would be when Eric is walking on top of the table in the library and he starts talking to a student underneath the table, stating "you still alive?!"

Sounds you were watching Zero Day.

I don't think bystanders could have done much more. The majority were probably way to shit scared to be in their right mind, and even if they did something they would have just been shot by E or D.

The SWAT team and other officials on the other hand ...

The only way to overcome 2 armed shooters would be to have a planned mass rush and overwhelm them with force and numbers.

That scenario was limited if not impossible given the students hiding in positions that were defenseless. They never were provided an opportunity to communicate or identify a strategy or react to another students aggressive efforts to attack E or D in time.

The closest scenario would have been students gathered in closets, rooms or the kitchen, but not having knowledge of the number of shooters or their positions rendered that option futile.

Heck, law enforcement wasn't even prepared.. although they had countless options/scenarios where they could have easily shut down the killing swiftly and in a manner of minutes.

Escape efforts is the real conversation.. that was the only reasonable oppty to minimize death in my opinion.

Truth is,there was nothing to do.
Hell,even the police was acting like neighborhood watching groups.
It's quite interesting the presence of two opposite emotions that went on NBK.
Anger and fear.From both parts,E&D and the others.The primalest,wildest emotions.
You can't fake anger or fear on a life or death moment,or even on everyday routine.

I always thought they should have mass rushed them in the library when they were reloading their weapons. Then there would have only been one guy to keep watch and if it was Dylan odds would have been pretty good for the resistance. Neither of the boys could have fought back hand to hand without guns or bombs; they were too weak and puny.

The bombs and "crickets" scared everyone shitless, even the cops. Ironic since the pipe-bombs never hurt anyone. Without them, tho, I bet the attack would have been a lot shorter.

eli27 wrote:

The SWAT team and other officials on the other hand ...

Cowards. Ever seen this interview?

Gustopoet2 wrote:

I always thought they should have mass rushed them in the library when they were reloading their weapons. Then there would have only been one guy to keep watch and if it was Dylan odds would have been pretty good for the resistance. Neither of the boys could have fought back hand to hand without guns or bombs; they were too weak and puny.

The bombs and "crickets" scared everyone shitless, even the cops. Ironic since the pipe-bombs never hurt anyone. Without them, tho, I bet the attack would have been a lot shorter.

Easy for us to say, of course.

The library tables looked pretty sturdy... using them as shields, I think that at least the Hall-Eubanks-Steepleton and Shoels-Kechter-Scott groups acting together could've charged them, using the tables, successfully. The table would've eaten up a good chunk of the shotgun blast's energy. If you knew for sure that you'd eventually get shot point blank, it'd be easier to find the courage to act.

School shootings back then were a pretty new thing, though. Maybe now it would've played out differently.

I don't really think they could have done anything. It's just a fantasy.

But had they the presence of mind and opportunity, yeah, that plan prolly woulda worked.

Dico wrote:

Dataverse wrote:

Going back to Columbine, and after reviewing the CCTV footage, I personally believe there were plenty of missed opportunities at stopping the duo. The best example I can think of would be when Eric is walking on top of the table in the library and he starts talking to a student underneath the table, stating "you still alive?!"

Sounds you were watching Zero Day.

Lol, I only just realized this. I've never watched "Zero Day" back-to-front. The guy who uploaded the video makes it look 100% legitimate! Guess I should do more research before I make comments like this. :p

^It's all good, the ZD footage is still pretty convincing so I'll give you that. I was actually disturbed the first time I saw it even though I knew it was just a movie.

A competent police force would have been a great place to start. According to Randy Brown in "Zero Hour" the police were able to hear the library massacre happening, but they didnt intervene at all. I don't think they even had officers inside the school until right before their suicides. Had they sent a few officers in they could have entered the library while E and D were focused on the cops outside and got them in the back. They could have surrounded them in the cafeteria while the boys attempted to blow the bomb. I've read before that there were parents and firefighters offering to go inside with guns but they were stopped by police who told them they'd be shot if they tried to enter.

I understand that situations like Columbine aren't normal day-to-day police work and school shootings were only on the rise back then. The thing is police are expected by citizens to be prepared for anything. Their job is to protect people and save lives at all cost. A whole ARMY of police and not one has the balls to walk inside? Yes I know they had bombs and the cops didnt know there were only 2 of them, but that stuff doesn't matter. When children are being actively murdered you do whatever you can to stop them. If you are gonna become a law enforcement officer you should have courage. JeffCo officers had none.

Ive thought about what may have happened if the library students rushed the boys before. A few would have probably been shot, but Eric was weak and Dylan's tech9 was shit. Had those students gotten their hands on the boys it would have been over. Evan Todd alone would have wrecked Eric. I don't see Dylan being very good at hand-to-hand fighting. Their only power was in their weapons and without them E and D were pathetic weaklings. I honestly think had they lost them they would have tried to run. The embarrassment they would have felt having NBK stopped by their peers would have been psychologically devastating. Eric's bombs didnt detonate, Dylan didnt get to die, people who they planned to kill (and who they saw as below them) stopped the attack, and theyd spend life behind bars for only a few deaths. Itd be a very poetic ending in my opinion.

Quote :

A competent police force would have been a great place to start. According to Randy Brown in "Zero Hour" the police were able to hear the library massacre happening, but they didnt intervene at all. I don't think they even had officers inside the school until right before their suicides. Had they sent a few officers in they could have entered the library while E and D were focused on the cops outside and got them in the back. They could have surrounded them in the cafeteria while the boys attempted to blow the bomb. I've read before that there were parents and firefighters offering to go inside with guns but they were stopped by police who told them they'd be shot if they tried to enter.

Hindsight is 20/20. Kids in the library didn't know all that we do. They didn't know that its a spree killing. Many probably assumed its either a revenge shooting. I'm sure some people thought they were safe when they seen E&D in a "I don't know these guys, so whoever they are after its not me, so I'll just stay put under the table and wait till this is all over".

Today people are more aware of how spree killings work. But that wa the pre-columbine america, people thougth tis a prank, revenge killing, etc. Remember Columbine was the first such high profile spree killing in a US school. Jonesboro and Paduycah were smaller and mostly ignored.

CaptainMidnight wrote:

You can't fake anger or fear on a life or death moment,or even on everyday routine.

Can't speak with certainty about a life-or-death moment. However I need to say you are clarly wrong on the everyday part.

I've been faking such stuff (including fear and anger) for years and years. You can fake them and you can fake them in a way that even the people closest to you (parents, long-term acquintances etc) will never know that its not real.

Been there, done that, got the shirt.