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 Those Who Knew Beforehand

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PostSubject: Those Who Knew Beforehand   Those Who Knew Beforehand Icon_minitimeFri Nov 20, 2015 12:41 am

I know this topic has been discussed a thousand times in the past, but I'd like to add my two cents on something I find quite interesting.

Overall, I find it totally possible that E&D let nobody in on their plan until the day it occurred. Actually, I'd say I believe that's the case. Or, they mentioned it so vaguely that any normal person would assume they were joking. However, there's a couple events that make me wonder:

1. The diversion bomb in the field. I know that Eric wrote about creating a diversion bomb in a journal entry somewhere... but I don't remember it being very specific. I know that in the timeline Dylan had written out, it was not mentioned. Perhaps it was Eric's job and Dylan was only including his own plans in his timeline, but it seems strange that this wasn't mentioned in a more concrete fashion as the shooting approached. I would imagine they (Eric, at least) would think this is a clever plan and would probably want to gloat about it in his writings. The 'mysteriousness' of it makes me wonder if a 3rd person could have been enlisted for help, and they didn't mention it in order to keep their accomplices out of trouble. On the other hand, they had no trouble mentioning Robyn in aiding them with weapons. Overall, I'm just perplexed at how little this bomb was discussed by E&D when everything else was so planned out. Maybe I missed a line in a journal entry or something, who knows.

2. Erik Veik's existence. It's mainly thought he 'looked up' to Eric but I haven't done enough independent research to have an opinion on that, I've just seen that sentiment shared. Also him being the author of the 'quote of the day' on 4/20 is interesting, but I think that's just a coincidence. The fact that he was arrested a short time after 4/20 for suspicion of wanting to 'recreate Columbine' at Chatfield High School is extremely interesting, yet there's no more than a paragraph of information about it wherever you look. Apparently diagrams and 'other writings' were seized from him but nowhere are the contents of these divulged. People could have been freaking out about Columbine still, and knowing he had been associated with E&D, made him a suspicious character from the start. One wrong sentence misconstrued from him could easily cause something like this to happen, but the diagrams and 'other writings' of his make it a bit more complex.

3. Hoax Emails. Just a few days after the massacre, Jeffco received an email of Eric's supposed suicide letter. What interests me here is the tone of the letter. The author could very well have been channeling the 'teen angst' vibe, but it aligns pretty well with Eric's true reasons. And this was before any of his writings or really anything for that matter had been publicly revealed. Could the author have been an online buddy of Eric's whom he discussed his plans? Other hoaxes sent to Jeffco exist but aren't as believable.

I'm not advocating any conspiracy theories here. Definitely don't believe there was a 3rd shooter or anything like that. But I do wonder if somebody out there knew what was going to happen in advance. With the boys being hormonal teenagers with access to the (at the time) very anonymous internet, it increases the odds they would at least make mention of their plans online in some long-deleted ICQ / AIM chat or forum post. Plus, the fact that all these little scraps of information from the Web 1.0 are gone for good gives it that unprovable mysteriousness that keeps me wondering.
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PostSubject: Re: Those Who Knew Beforehand   Those Who Knew Beforehand Icon_minitimeFri Nov 20, 2015 12:46 pm

Initial response is to say others had heard or discussed with E/D doing something like NBK, but it was just kids being kids & all talk.

Signs/proof that it was more than that are out there:

-Girl who stated Dylan & a few others showed her bombing plans @ the mall
-Nate Dykeman claimed other(s) were @ CHS that morning of 4/20 with hand gun but pulled out & didnt participate
-Journal notes about a friend/unnamed storing supplies for them
-Group of kids arrested in the park who claimed they heard it on the radio, timeline shows the radio had not yet broadcasted the event yet
-The TCM member/founder Chris Morris who was arrested on 4/20 for suspicion.. his mother was a denver cop & threw him out of the house. Morris played a key role in attempting to secure a confession from Mark Manes who supplied the guns. Why did Morris feel the need to go that far in assisting the Jeffco PD?

On the contrary, not sure there were any parties that could have known about 4/20 that weren't present/in danger or had siblings or gf's present & in danger. Certainly had they known, they wouldn't have put themselves or let significant others be in harms way.

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PostSubject: Re: Those Who Knew Beforehand   Those Who Knew Beforehand Icon_minitimeSun Nov 22, 2015 3:13 am

Interesting, I did not know about Dykeman's claim of others with handguns. Is that somewhere in the 11k?

I remember the kids at the park and thought that was something worth investigating. Could have been any of the parties involved recounting an incorrect time. That was a different group than the "Splatterpunks" who were found in a field near the school, correct? If I recall they were all wearing camouflage as well.

According to Chris Morris' wiki page here:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Quote :
In the months leading up to the massacre, Eric shared his plans of taking over the school to Morris; he also invited Morris to participate in it along with Dylan. Initially, Morris turned down his offer, thinking he was kidding. But worse was to come for the 17 year old Columbine student

There's no source for this but I suspect it's an extrapolation from much more vague quotes in the 11k where E&D mention how fun it would be to shoot jocks and blow up the school in a manner everybody assumed was joking.
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PostSubject: Re: Those Who Knew Beforehand   Those Who Knew Beforehand Icon_minitimeTue Nov 24, 2015 9:04 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Good intel on possible contacts that had insight on 4/20 before hand
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PostSubject: Re: Those Who Knew Beforehand   Those Who Knew Beforehand Icon_minitimeTue Nov 24, 2015 5:34 pm

That's a lot of good info. Thanks for posting it.

Truthfully, someone had to have known besides E/D. In fact, there were lots of jokes volleyed around regarding Eric and Dylan being the next school shooters. Deputy Garner was even asked about Eric and Dylan during their Junior year after the Brooks family complaint.

I find the internet postings of foreknowledge to be more believable, since the two had a tendency to brag online. I'm not so sure about the TCM thing, since they were more loosely associated with the group than what is usually stated.

The fact of the matter is; a lot of people had very blatant signs that something was going to happen. However, they only had one piece of a very large puzzle.

I always wondered how the diversion bombs sent off, but the propane bombs never even triggered. That used to make me think that someone else planted the diversions.

There have also been a few examples of Eric trying to "recruit" other TCM types into the event as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Those Who Knew Beforehand   Those Who Knew Beforehand Icon_minitimeTue Nov 24, 2015 8:32 pm

What about Pat McDuffee who went to the sheriffs office and claimed that a handful of TCM'ers were part of it too (he was a TCM also). If I remember correctly he claimed that a few of them set bombs up during prom/ball and a few of them were even there with weapons? Police later told him to recant his confession.
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PostSubject: Re: Those Who Knew Beforehand   Those Who Knew Beforehand Icon_minitimeTue Nov 24, 2015 8:49 pm

Very good resource, Fatheroftwo, thanks for the link!

Another aspect worth mentioning is how quickly multiple people assumed E&D were the shooters right away, independently of one another. I believe the only piece of information released by news up to that point had been they were wearing trench coats, if that. This includes E&D's fathers. Eric's father called 911 to report he suspected his son was one of the shooters. Dylan's father called his wife under suspicion that Dylan was 'involved'. Dylan's father states that he went into Dylan's room to check if his trench coat was still there, and upon not seeing it, knew Dylan was either the shooter or involved in some way. There is of course Brooks, who immediately suspected Eric when he began to hear gunfire, although his reasoning is a little more substantial since he met with Eric face-to-face minutes before.

None of this implies that there was direct foreknowledge of the event, but it does indicate how E&D were perceived by others. They'd have to be exhibiting some major signs for their own fathers to suspect them when the only piece of information is that the shooters were wearing trenchcoats (even though their fathers would know them more than others, the denial factor would still be strong). Granted, trenchcoats were E&D's 'thing' and seemed to become part of their personality since they wore them throughout hot days and in other situations where it stands out.

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PostSubject: Re: Those Who Knew Beforehand   Those Who Knew Beforehand Icon_minitimeTue Nov 24, 2015 8:59 pm

Yeah, you last point hits it spot on. Eric's father was calling in way too early for it to be just a hunch. Given Dylan's parent's I think they were a little more strategic in their approach.
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PostSubject: Re: Those Who Knew Beforehand   Those Who Knew Beforehand Icon_minitimeTue Nov 24, 2015 9:16 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Eric's Dad called police because he came home to a house reeking with gas fumes.
He probably then went down to Eric's room saw the gun parts lying around, saw Eric's coat was gone and put it all together based on what they were saying on tv.
I'm sure Wayne was probably hoping until the police showed up that it would turn out that Eric wasn't involved.


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PostSubject: Re: Those Who Knew Beforehand   Those Who Knew Beforehand Icon_minitimeThu Nov 26, 2015 10:26 pm

The diversionary bomb has never been adequately explained.  We should really do a whole thread trying to track every last bit of evidence on it. Who's in?
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PostSubject: Re: Those Who Knew Beforehand   Those Who Knew Beforehand Icon_minitimeThu Nov 26, 2015 10:50 pm

From the 11K regarding evidence from the Diversionary Bomb Site:

10119 & 10136-10190 Diversion Bomb [7633 West Elmhurst Drive] -- Computerized Evidence Log [Evidence Volume 1]

10119 Fireworks 9 dozen 61 Single Pop Bottle Rockets 4 Packs 5 Single "Black Cat" Type
Jennings 042099 1000 ?
10136 3 Bottles of Liquid Jennings 042099 1700
10137 Plastic Clip Jennings 042099 2126
10138 Black Pieces of Plastic Jennings 042099 2126
10139 Piece of Glass Jennings 042099 2125
10140 Melted Plastic Jennings 042099 2150
10141 Piece of Plastic Jennings 042099 2151
10142 Black Webbing Jennings 042099 2136
10143 Black Plastic Clip Jennings 042099 2135
10144 Piece of Plastic Jennings 042099 2124
10145 Piece of Wire Jennings 042099 2140  
10146 Metal Cap Jennings 042099 2135
10147 Glass Fragments Jennings 042099 2138
10148 Piece of Plastic Jennings 042099 2142
10149 "C" Cell Battery Jennings 042099 2143
10150 Glass Fragments Jennings 042099 2144
10151 Metal Cap Jennings 042099 2141
10152 Aerosol Can Jennings 042099 2145
10153 1 1/2" x 6" Metal Pipe Jennings 042099 2144
10154 Coffee Can Jennings 042099 2135
10155 Metal Bell Jennings 042099 2137
10156 Metal Clasp Jennings 042099 2140
10157 Piece of Plastic Jennings 042099 2141
10158 9 Volt Battery Jennings 042099 2122
10159 Piece of Glass Jennings 042099 2121
10160 Piece of Plastic Jennings 042099 2123
10161 Piece of Plastic Jennings 042099 2120
10162 Plastic Buckle Clasp Jennings 042099 2131
10163 Red Colored Cloth Jennings 042099 2148
10164 Piece of White Plastic Jennings 042099 2127
10165 Red Colored Cloth Jennings 042099 2118
10166 Red Backpack Jennings 042099 2118
10167 Piece of Black Material Jennings 042099 2120
10168 Piece of Black Plastic Jennings 042099 2115
10169 Pieces of Glass Jennings 042099 2114
10170 16.4oz Propane Tank Jennings 042099 2112
10171 8.4oz Right Guard Aerosol Can Jennings 042099 2111
10172 16.4oz Propane Tank Jennings 042099 2110
10173 Glass Bottle Neck Jennings 042099 2110
10174 Plastic Clasp Jennings 042099 2102
10175 Aerosol Spray Can Jennings 042099 2101
10176 Piece of Black Plastic Jennings 042099 2103
10177 Plastic Clasp Pieces Jennings 042099 2100
10178 Piece of Plastic Jennings 042099 2104
10179 Piece of Plastic Jennings 042099 2106
10180 Glass Handle Jennings 042099 2103
10181 Black Zipper Jennings 042099 2128
10182 Piece of Plastic Jennings 042099 2129
10183 Pieces of Wood & Wire Jennings 042099 2130
10184 Piece of Black Debris Material Jennings 042099 2129
10185 Black Plastic Cap Jennings 042099 2117
10186 Black Cloth Jennings 042099 2133
10187 Black Cloth Jennings 042099 2133
10188 Package of 12 Pop Bottle Rockets Jennings 042099 2200
10189 Piece of Glass Jennings 042099 2118
10190 Piece of Black Plastic Cap Jennings 042099 2120
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PostSubject: Re: Those Who Knew Beforehand   Those Who Knew Beforehand Icon_minitimeFri Dec 25, 2015 4:24 pm

"Jason Baer(1759) There was this interesting statement that I recently discovered:

"When I first started working at the Pretzel Maker, I thought Melissa had some problems she seemed slow and she was weird. She hung out with some guys in trench coats that don't go to our school. She talked to Shannon(?) about knowing that Eric and Dylan were planning something. She was supposedly trying to pick up on a girl at work(Abigail(?)) and started talking about that. Abigail got scared, went home and told her mom. Her mom told the cops about it. The day that Melissa quit, she found out the everyone knew what she told Abigail and she ran out. She had supposedly been with them when they wrote in the journal with all of their friends and saw blueprints for a building. Melissa had said that THE PLAN WAS FOR ERIC AND DYLAN TO DIE BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO. She said that there were supposed to be about 4 others who will go in and do some shooting and leave before cops got there, but she said it afterwards so it might not be true.""

I find this really interesting and that part in particular makes me really sad. I've always believed that someone other than the two boys had to know about NBK. Eric was too big of a bragger not to let something slip. Though I can't say I believe all of TCM was in on NBK its still a really depressing thought that E and D could have hypothetically been used as weapons due to their urge to die.


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PostSubject: Re: Those Who Knew Beforehand   Those Who Knew Beforehand Icon_minitimeFri Dec 25, 2015 10:59 pm

You know why so many school shootings fail? Because the perps always run their mouths about their plans. And I bet Eric and Dylan were no different. People knew. Most would have blown them off as a pair of angry teenage boys but still, there were people that knew.
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» Who knew beforehand?
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» How much do you think E&D's friends really knew?
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