"I'm sorry I have so much rage, but you put it in me." 

Why was Dylan saying this?

Because he had lots of rage in him, he felt sorry about it, but he felt that other people created it in him...?

Sorry for the snarky response but beyond speculation and the statement at face value there's not a definitive answer.

The reason I ask this question is because Dylan states this on the Basement Tapes, and he directs it at his family.

Why exactly does he say this? What did his family do that Sue is not sharing with us? Why is Sue telling us Byron and Dylan were close to each other in the book, and yet Dylan says he is not at all, "but isn't concerned", or even stating that Byron and his friends picked on him, or what about Dylan stating his family treated him like the "runt of the litter".

He's just super sensitive if you ask me, they probably never did anything "bad" to him, remember they killed 13 people so I think they were prone to over reacting.

Sue stated in one of her interviews that Dylan was desperately trying to find reasons to be rage filled on the BT....grabbing at anything he could.  I think this is an example of this.

Freezingmoon wrote:

Sue stated in one of her interviews that Dylan was desperately trying to find reasons to be rage filled on the BT....grabbing at anything he could.  I think this is an example of this.

Probably, but I still think she's trying to find excuses for her son

She was sucked in by Cullen's ridiculous 'Eric's a psychopath, and Dylan's depressed' theory

Sue fails to know the fact that Dylan Klebold was not only depressed, but homicidal even before Eric "poisoning" him as Cullen and her like to say. This was a young man who was experiencing homicidal thoughts a year and a half prior before Columbine. This was a young man who wanted to go on a shooting spree three times. Once by himself, once with someone other than Eric, and once with a female (NBK anyone?). This is all before Eric was ever even involved. Dylan only mentions Eric a few times in his journals also. He doesn't even use "Reb". He mentions Eric as..."Eric". Isn't that slightly odd? Look at the difference between Eric and Dylan's journals. First, Eric doesn't even call Dylan by his name. He calls him by his nickname, Vodka. And he mentions him a lot. He referred to Dylan as his "best friend". Dylan referred to Eric as his "good friend", and this is even after the January Arrest. His mother, Sue even admits that Eric wasn't Dylan's best friend.

Speaking of Dave Cullen; look at these sentences from "Acknowledgements" in Sue's book.

"Many thanks go to Dave Cullen for talking with me about his research on the Columbine
tragedy, and for helping me recount specifics of the incident. He generously searched through
piles of material to fact-check references when I needed his help with accuracy."


Not even in Sue Klebold's book can we get away from Dave Cullen and his bulls...

It's undeniable that she's still trying to find rational reasons that fit what she already had made up in her mind. People do this all the time. Instead of making a decision based on the evidence presented, they make a decision and search for evidence to back up their decision. That's what she's doing.

You know, people can arrive at the conclusion that Eric was a psychopath without being influenced by Cullen's writing. I'm getting a little annoyed by the insinuation that Sue just took Cullen's word for it without doing any research on her own.

Undyne wrote:

You know, people can arrive at the conclusion that Eric was a psychopath without being influenced by Cullen's writing.  I'm getting a little annoyed by the insinuation that Sue just took Cullen's word for it without doing any research on her own.

Yea, but she said she did not look into Eric's illness or do any research about Eric. If she said this herself, than what other explanation is there? Clearly she is still in denial about Dylan's actions. She makes excuses for him.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand what depression and being suicidal feels like and yes, Dylan was mentally ill to the point of being suicidal. But why didn't he just take his own life. Why did he have to take others with him? Sue keeps pushing the 'he was depressed' and 'he was suicidal and mentally ill'. And all that's fine but most people who suffer from being suicidal never wanna harm anyone else but themselves. So clearly there was something else there. He was not just a 'suicidal depressive'.

Sue Klebold once gave Eric a job reference and said in her BBC interview, "My impressions of Eric, for the most part, was that he was a perfectly normal likeable kid" and she references the only time she saw him act inappropriate was when he freaked out after the soccer game.

Then she discusses the Van break in and she was more cautious of Eric/Dylan's relationship.

sororityalpha wrote:

Sue Klebold once gave Eric a job reference and said in her BBC interview, "My impressions of Eric, for the most part, was that he was a perfectly normal likeable kid" and she references the only time she saw him act inappropriate was when he freaked out after the soccer game.

Then she discusses the Van break in and she was more cautious of Eric/Dylan's relationship.

But that has nothing to do with her looking into/researching Eric's mental health. I didn't say she didn't mention Eric, I said that she didn't research what caused Eric's actions. So if she implies she thinks Eric was a psychopath, where did she get that conclusion from if she didn't look into it herself?

As what Jenn said, what suicidal person takes OTHER'S lives with them? He wasn't just suicidal. And he was homicidal years BEFORE Eric had any involvement or could have "poisoned" him.

The simple fact that Dylan had people in mind to go NBK with prior to Eric says enough. He wanted to hurt people just like Eric did. Enough of this 'He was just depressed' crap.

Jenn wrote:

So if she implies she thinks Eric was a psychopath, where did she get that conclusion from if she didn't look into it herself?

From her book, it is more than likely from Dr. Peter Langman:

Dr. Langman writes, “[Dylan’s] journal is markedly different from Eric’s in both content and style. Whereas Eric’s is full of narcissistic condescension and bloodthirsty rage, Dylan’s is focused on loneliness, depression, ruminations, and preoccupation with finding love. Eric drew pictures of weapons, swastikas, and soldiers; Dylan drew hearts. Eric lusted after sex and fantasized about rape; Dylan longed for true love.”

Based on his journals, many of the experts I’ve spoken to feel comfortable saying that Eric displayed the traits and characteristics of a psychopath. As with Dylan, a true posthumous diagnosis is, of course, not possible. (In any case, because the adolescent brain is still developing, a formal diagnosis of psychopathy is only possible after the subject turns eighteen.) Even so, Eric certainly satisfies a great number of the diagnostic markers associated with this personality disorder.

Psychopathy is characterized by diminished empathy and provocative behavior. Most important, psychopaths (also called sociopaths; some experts differentiate between the two, the majority do not) don’t have a conscience, the part of the mind that enables us to feel guilt. They lie without compunction and are often highly skilled manipulators. There are some psychologists and psychiatrists who believe that psychopaths can be successfully treated. The ones I spoke to are not convinced. Not every psychopath is a criminal or a sadist, but if they do move in that direction, as Eric did, they can become highly dangerous.

A 2001 study of adolescent school shooters, prompted in part by the massacre at Columbine High School, resulted in two interesting findings. The first is that 25 percent of the thirty-four teenage shooters they looked at participated in pairs. This is different from adult rampage killers, who most often act alone. Dr. Reid Meloy, a forensic psychologist and expert on targeted violence and threat assessment, authored the study. He told me that these deadly dyads mean it’s absolutely critical for parents to pay attention to the dynamics between kids and their friends. The second finding from his study: typically, one of the two kids was a psychopath, and the other one suggestible, dependent, and depressed.

For years after the attack, I resisted blaming Eric for Dylan’s participation. I believed, as I still do at some level, that whatever hold Eric might have had over him, Dylan was still accountable for the choices he made. At one point, at least, he was separate enough and objective enough to tell me Eric was “crazy,” and ambivalent enough to try to get help to distance himself from the relationship.

Given what I have learned about psychopathy, I now feel differently. I find the violence and hatred seething off the page in Eric’s journals almost unreadably dark, but his writing is clear, whereas Dylan’s was not. As Dr. Langman puts it, “Dylan’s writing is jumbled, disorganized, and full of tangled syntax and misused words. Eric’s thoughts are disturbing; Dylan’s thought process is disturbed. The difference is in what Eric thinks and how Dylan thinks.”

We know Eric was overwhelmingly persuasive. His Diversion counselor, dismissing him early from the program, said at the end of her final report, “muy facile [sic] hombre,” which my Spanish-speaking friends translate as an affectionate characterization along the lines of “super-easy guy.” Eric’s perceived halo may have extended to Dylan, whose own grades weren’t good enough to justify his early dismissal from Diversion. A number of the psychologists I have spoken to have told me how scarily charismatic and charming psychopaths can be—how quick they are to find the wedge, and how masterfully they work the lever. I am not sure that Dylan, especially in an impaired state, was in a position to extricate himself from that relationship.

lol wrote:

what suicidal person takes OTHER'S lives with them?

A lot actually, just look at all the murder-suicides that happen and other instances where people who plan to kill themselves will kill others first.

sororityalpha wrote:

lol wrote:

what suicidal person takes OTHER'S lives with them?

A lot actually, just look at all the murder-suicides that happen and other instances where people who plan to kill themselves will kill others first.

Doesn't mean they're just suicidal. Remember I said, "He wasn't just suicidal." They obviously have more problems than being just suicidal, and that's exactly what Dylan was. There are many who are suicidal who just kill themselves, and nobody else. Dylan was not just suicidal as Sue wants to think. He was homicidal also, and he was years before Eric "poisoned" him or whatever crap they're trying to spew out now a days.

Like Jenn said, I don't believe Dylan was just depressed and suicidal. He clearly had the intention of killing others even before teaming up with Eric.

I think feelings of superiority are what motivated the both of them to carry out NBK. You could see narcissistic traits when they claimed that they were god-like, and that the rest of humanity were just zombies, or slaves to society. Dylan's rage likely came from the fact that he was caught & punished nearly every time he tried to pull something (the hacking, the break in, the locker), which showed him that others did not value his supposed superiority. Believing that you're so highly above others, while outwardly being disciplined by the same "zombies" you condemn will bring rage. I think his brushes with the law finally showed him that his rage was not capable of a simple outburst, but an attack of fatal retaliation.

The director of Zero Day, Ben Coccio, put it well, "That shooters tend to be students with superiority, and 'when other people don't confirm that, it really gets under their skin.'"

I think people tend to blame Cullen a little more than they should. Let's keep in mind that he isn't qualified to diagnose Eric, nor was he the one to do so. The so called "experts" that he interviewed are the ones who put the "Eric was a psychopath" view in is head. For instance the psychology experts during the 20/20 interview laid it on pretty thick. I do not agree with it or how Cullen has helped push it in the media, but if anyone is to blame for the diagnosis its the "experts" who managed to get it wrong. There's so much evidence that Erics writings were all just a posturing act.

I don't understand how they were able to look at that broken, embarrassed, self conscious kid and think he was some genius monster psycho. E and D got away with all the planning and the attack BECAUSE it was the pre-Columbine era. They were very sloppy with a lot of it and they'd almost certainly be caught in today's world. A shocking amount of kids get caught planning these kind of attacks. I think the fact that Columbine was the first time the world really saw that kind of viciousness perpetrated by teenagers has made E and D (especially Eric) into twisted legends. For instance I find TJ Lane to be a much bigger piece of human trash than Eric, yet he'll never be as recognized because he didnt "go big". Cho killed over twice the amount of people than E and D and even chained the damn doors shut so no one could escape. Still you don't see shooters referencing V-tech like they do Columbine. I really do think that aura of evil influenced the conclusions these criminal psychologists reached.

One thing I've been thinking about is how all these so called experts- Cullen, Langman,That retired FBI profiler lady, Fusilier relentlessly push that psychopath label onto Eric. It's like they have a very personal hatred of him; like he did something to them horrible personally. Which except for Fusilier is not possible.
And I've always maintained that Fueilier was biased and should have resigned from the case immediately.
Its strange to me how these professionals seem to have such a hatred of a dead kid they never knew  and go to such lengths to perpetuate this image of him they have on such a widespread level.

lol wrote:

sororityalpha wrote:

lol wrote:

what suicidal person takes OTHER'S lives with them?

A lot actually, just look at all the murder-suicides that happen and other instances where people who plan to kill themselves will kill others first.

Doesn't mean they're just suicidal. Remember I said, "He wasn't just suicidal." They obviously have more problems than being just suicidal, and that's exactly what Dylan was. There are many who are suicidal who just kill themselves, and nobody else. Dylan was not just suicidal as Sue wants to think. He was homicidal also, and he was years before Eric "poisoned" him or whatever crap they're trying to spew out now a days.

I must mostly agree with lol. Yes, Dylan was sad, very depressed and hopeless. But if that was all he was, he would probably have not been able to pull the trigger on others. He also had to be incredibly pissed off and bitter and have a lot of hatred for his schoolmates to do what he did.

sororityalpha wrote:

Jenn wrote:

So if she implies she thinks Eric was a psychopath, where did she get that conclusion from if she didn't look into it herself?

From her book, it is more than likely from Dr. Peter Langman:

Dr. Langman writes, “[Dylan’s] journal is markedly different from Eric’s in both content and style. Whereas Eric’s is full of narcissistic condescension and bloodthirsty rage, Dylan’s is focused on loneliness, depression, ruminations, and preoccupation with finding love. Eric drew pictures of weapons, swastikas, and soldiers; Dylan drew hearts. Eric lusted after sex and fantasized about rape; Dylan longed for true love.”

Based on his journals, many of the experts I’ve spoken to feel comfortable saying that Eric displayed the traits and characteristics of a psychopath. As with Dylan, a true posthumous diagnosis is, of course, not possible. (In any case, because the adolescent brain is still developing, a formal diagnosis of psychopathy is only possible after the subject turns eighteen.) Even so, Eric certainly satisfies a great number of the diagnostic markers associated with this personality disorder.

Psychopathy is characterized by diminished empathy and provocative behavior. Most important, psychopaths (also called sociopaths; some experts differentiate between the two, the majority do not) don’t have a conscience, the part of the mind that enables us to feel guilt. They lie without compunction and are often highly skilled manipulators. There are some psychologists and psychiatrists who believe that psychopaths can be successfully treated. The ones I spoke to are not convinced. Not every psychopath is a criminal or a sadist, but if they do move in that direction, as Eric did, they can become highly dangerous.

A 2001 study of adolescent school shooters, prompted in part by the massacre at Columbine High School, resulted in two interesting findings. The first is that 25 percent of the thirty-four teenage shooters they looked at participated in pairs. This is different from adult rampage killers, who most often act alone. Dr. Reid Meloy, a forensic psychologist and expert on targeted violence and threat assessment, authored the study. He told me that these deadly dyads mean it’s absolutely critical for parents to pay attention to the dynamics between kids and their friends. The second finding from his study: typically, one of the two kids was a psychopath, and the other one suggestible, dependent, and depressed.

For years after the attack, I resisted blaming Eric for Dylan’s participation. I believed, as I still do at some level, that whatever hold Eric might have had over him, Dylan was still accountable for the choices he made. At one point, at least, he was separate enough and objective enough to tell me Eric was “crazy,” and ambivalent enough to try to get help to distance himself from the relationship.

Given what I have learned about psychopathy, I now feel differently. I find the violence and hatred seething off the page in Eric’s journals almost unreadably dark, but his writing is clear, whereas Dylan’s was not. As Dr. Langman puts it, “Dylan’s writing is jumbled, disorganized, and full of tangled syntax and misused words. Eric’s thoughts are disturbing; Dylan’s thought process is disturbed. The difference is in what Eric thinks and how Dylan thinks.”

We know Eric was overwhelmingly persuasive. His Diversion counselor, dismissing him early from the program, said at the end of her final report, “muy facile [sic] hombre,” which my Spanish-speaking friends translate as an affectionate characterization along the lines of “super-easy guy.” Eric’s perceived halo may have extended to Dylan, whose own grades weren’t good enough to justify his early dismissal from Diversion. A number of the psychologists I have spoken to have told me how scarily charismatic and charming psychopaths can be—how quick they are to find the wedge, and how masterfully they work the lever. I am not sure that Dylan, especially in an impaired state, was in a position to extricate himself from that relationship.

Yea, yea, more ramblings about Eric's journal which proves nothing because Eric's wrote his journal most likely knowing people would see it after he was dead.

His journal holds no water because the way he acts on the Basement Tapes and statements from other students who spent time with him totally contradict what he said in that damn journal. Eric wanted friends, he wanted to be accepted. Without hesitation he became friends with Brooks and a girl he had IN HIS ROOM said that he was polite and kissed her on the cheek (if I recall correctly).

I am so sick and tired of hearing 'Eric is a psychopath' and when I ask 'What makes you come to the conclusion that he was a psychopath' and I get more ramblings about this journal.

If Eric was a psychopath than so was Dylan. But I have not heard one good argument supporting that 'Eric poisoned Dylan' or that Eric was the mastermind.

However, Dylan wrote about going on a 'shooting spree' not once, not twice but three times with various different people (THAT WERE NOT ERIC HARRIS). Dylan was the one who talked about killing and getting 'revenge' and then ironically, out of the blue, MORE THAN A YEAR LATER, Eric starts up his journal talking about getting revenge. How can anyone think that Eric was the one poisoning Dylan? I just don't get it.

Eric had no behavioral problems BEFORE Dylan. Eric's websites, his journal, the journal his Father kept about his behavioral issues all came after Dylan. The missions that Eric wrote about was something that Dylan wrote in his journal, again, a year prior - missions that he did WITH ZACK, not with Eric. He says he and Zack 'did everything together' including the missions. Eric was not originally apart of this. Eric came later after Zack got a girlfriend.

I will not now or ever accept the argument that Eric was a psychopath based solely on his journal and that is ALL anyone ever tells me about when I bring this up.

I have given tons of reasons on why I think that Dylan clearly was the troubled one who wanted to kill people first and brought the idea to Eric. He was not a suicidal depressive. He started talking about murdering people when he was 16 years old. He was angry, he was jealous, he was bitter, he whined about how life wasn't fair because people had better things and lives than him. Someone who is a suicidal depressive thinks only of killing themselves, not murdering anyone they want.

So how the hell is Dylan only labeled as a 'suicidal depressive' meanwhile Eric is just an 'insane psychopath'. Dylan murdered people just as much as Eric did but thanks to people like Cullen who told a story not based on facts but based on what HE wanted it to be, people will forever be left with the impression that Dylan was this sad little depressed follower and Eric just an insane psychopath.

And by the way, this is off topic but any of the survivors that Dylan let go, Eric let them go as well. Eric could have easily killed John Savage, Valeen Schnurr or Evan Todd (all students who apparently had interactions with Dylan that Dylan decided not to kill) but he didn't. Eric 'let them go' too. Why Dylan is the only one credited for letting them go, I have no idea. And with John Savage, it was actually Eric who let him go first, not Dylan.

If we shouldn't call Eric a psychopath, then who exactly should be labelled one? What makes them different from Eric?

Jenn wrote:

sororityalpha wrote:

Jenn wrote:

So if she implies she thinks Eric was a psychopath, where did she get that conclusion from if she didn't look into it herself?

From her book, it is more than likely from Dr. Peter Langman:

Dr. Langman writes, “[Dylan’s] journal is markedly different from Eric’s in both content and style. Whereas Eric’s is full of narcissistic condescension and bloodthirsty rage, Dylan’s is focused on loneliness, depression, ruminations, and preoccupation with finding love. Eric drew pictures of weapons, swastikas, and soldiers; Dylan drew hearts. Eric lusted after sex and fantasized about rape; Dylan longed for true love.”

Based on his journals, many of the experts I’ve spoken to feel comfortable saying that Eric displayed the traits and characteristics of a psychopath. As with Dylan, a true posthumous diagnosis is, of course, not possible. (In any case, because the adolescent brain is still developing, a formal diagnosis of psychopathy is only possible after the subject turns eighteen.) Even so, Eric certainly satisfies a great number of the diagnostic markers associated with this personality disorder.

Psychopathy is characterized by diminished empathy and provocative behavior. Most important, psychopaths (also called sociopaths; some experts differentiate between the two, the majority do not) don’t have a conscience, the part of the mind that enables us to feel guilt. They lie without compunction and are often highly skilled manipulators. There are some psychologists and psychiatrists who believe that psychopaths can be successfully treated. The ones I spoke to are not convinced. Not every psychopath is a criminal or a sadist, but if they do move in that direction, as Eric did, they can become highly dangerous.

A 2001 study of adolescent school shooters, prompted in part by the massacre at Columbine High School, resulted in two interesting findings. The first is that 25 percent of the thirty-four teenage shooters they looked at participated in pairs. This is different from adult rampage killers, who most often act alone. Dr. Reid Meloy, a forensic psychologist and expert on targeted violence and threat assessment, authored the study. He told me that these deadly dyads mean it’s absolutely critical for parents to pay attention to the dynamics between kids and their friends. The second finding from his study: typically, one of the two kids was a psychopath, and the other one suggestible, dependent, and depressed.

For years after the attack, I resisted blaming Eric for Dylan’s participation. I believed, as I still do at some level, that whatever hold Eric might have had over him, Dylan was still accountable for the choices he made. At one point, at least, he was separate enough and objective enough to tell me Eric was “crazy,” and ambivalent enough to try to get help to distance himself from the relationship.

Given what I have learned about psychopathy, I now feel differently. I find the violence and hatred seething off the page in Eric’s journals almost unreadably dark, but his writing is clear, whereas Dylan’s was not. As Dr. Langman puts it, “Dylan’s writing is jumbled, disorganized, and full of tangled syntax and misused words. Eric’s thoughts are disturbing; Dylan’s thought process is disturbed. The difference is in what Eric thinks and how Dylan thinks.”

We know Eric was overwhelmingly persuasive. His Diversion counselor, dismissing him early from the program, said at the end of her final report, “muy facile [sic] hombre,” which my Spanish-speaking friends translate as an affectionate characterization along the lines of “super-easy guy.” Eric’s perceived halo may have extended to Dylan, whose own grades weren’t good enough to justify his early dismissal from Diversion. A number of the psychologists I have spoken to have told me how scarily charismatic and charming psychopaths can be—how quick they are to find the wedge, and how masterfully they work the lever. I am not sure that Dylan, especially in an impaired state, was in a position to extricate himself from that relationship.

Yea, yea, more ramblings about Eric's journal which proves nothing because Eric's wrote his journal most likely knowing people would see it after he was dead.

His journal holds no water because the way he acts on the Basement Tapes and statements from other students who spent time with him totally contradict what he said in that damn journal. Eric wanted friends, he wanted to be accepted. Without hesitation he became friends with Brooks and a girl he had IN HIS ROOM said that he was polite and kissed her on the cheek (if I recall correctly).

I am so sick and tired of hearing 'Eric is a psychopath' and when I ask 'What makes you come to the conclusion that he was a psychopath' and I get more ramblings about this journal.

If Eric was a psychopath than so was Dylan. But I have not heard one good argument supporting that 'Eric poisoned Dylan' or that Eric was the mastermind.

However, Dylan wrote about going on a 'shooting spree' not once, not twice but three times with various different people (THAT WERE NOT ERIC HARRIS). Dylan was the one who talked about killing and getting 'revenge' and then ironically, out of the blue, MORE THAN A YEAR LATER, Eric starts up his journal talking about getting revenge. How can anyone think that Eric was the one poisoning Dylan? I just don't get it.

Eric had no behavioral problems BEFORE Dylan. Eric's websites, his journal, the journal his Father kept about his behavioral issues all came after Dylan. The missions that Eric wrote about was something that Dylan wrote in his journal, again, a year prior - missions that he did WITH ZACK, not with Eric. He says he and Zack 'did everything together' including the missions. Eric was not originally apart of this. Eric came later after Zack got a girlfriend.

I will not now or ever accept the argument that Eric was a psychopath based solely on his journal and that is ALL anyone ever tells me about when I bring this up.

I have given tons of reasons on why I think that Dylan clearly was the troubled one who wanted to kill people first and brought the idea to Eric. He was not a suicidal depressive. He started talking about murdering people when he was 16 years old. He was angry, he was jealous, he was bitter, he whined about how life wasn't fair because people had better things and lives than him. Someone who is a suicidal depressive thinks only of killing themselves, not murdering anyone they want.

So how the hell is Dylan only labeled as a 'suicidal depressive' meanwhile Eric is just an 'insane psychopath'. Dylan murdered people just as much as Eric did but thanks to people like Cullen who told a story not based on facts but based on what HE wanted it to be, people will forever be left with the impression that Dylan was this sad little depressed follower and Eric just an insane psychopath.

And by the way, this is off topic but any of the survivors that Dylan let go, Eric let them go as well. Eric could have easily killed John Savage, Valeen Schnurr or Evan Todd (all students who apparently had interactions with Dylan that Dylan decided not to kill) but he didn't. Eric 'let them go' too. Why Dylan is the only one credited for letting them go, I have no idea. And with John Savage, it was actually Eric who let him go first, not Dylan.

I agree with all of this, but there is only one problem I found in your post. Eric actually did Missions with Dylan and Zack before Zack got a girlfriend. Zack got his girlfriend the summer of '97 before their junior year. Eric wrote about it in his website in his sophomore year (96-97). I believe he wrote in Jan '97??? or Oct '96 (correct me if I'm wrong) that Eric, Zack, and Dylan would go on missions, and drink alcohol after. ALL 3 OF THEM also vandalized Brooks Brown's house after the snowball incident in their 10th grade year. ALL 3. Not just Eric. And yet Brooks never makes notice that Dylan was also involved in vandalizing his own childhoods friend's house. They all want to make excuses for Dylan. It is pathetic. But, the way Dylan states in his journal how him and Zack did "everything" together, even "drinking for the first time"...sounds to me as if Dylan and Zack were doing these Rebel Missions first, and then Eric came along.

Undyne wrote:

If we shouldn't call Eric a psychopath, then who exactly should be labelled one?  What makes them different from Eric?  

I would go on a rampage on this post, but I want to hear it from your point of view

What makes you think Eric Harris was a psychopath?

Undyne wrote:

If we shouldn't call Eric a psychopath, then who exactly should be labelled one?  What makes them different from Eric?  

You want an example of a true psychopath? Ted Bundy. What makes him different to Eric? Eric did not have behavioral problems before his friendship with Dylan. He did not talk about revenge or murdering people until (what I believe) Dylan brought it up to him (which altered Eric's way of thinking). He followed everything Dylan did. Dylan was his best friend and not only did Eric copy what Dylan wore, things Dylan liked, friends that Dylan had, he also copied Dylan's way of thinking. Dylan talks about taking out revenge and killing people and a year later, Eric pops up saying all the things Dylan had already confessed to his journal.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not justifying what Eric did or saying he shouldn't be held responsible.

Ted Bundy showed no remorse for what he did. He did not question going through with it as Eric did. Eric showed more than a few signs that he wasn't even sure he wanted to go through with it. He cried over happier times. He wanted to be accepted and wanted people to like him. He easily forgave 'friends' for old disagreements. He wanted to fit in. He was upset about always having to start at the bottom of the ladder.

Ted Bundy viciously raped and murdered women and children. He had no doubt about doing it, he wanted to do it and he would do it again. He escaped from prison just to kill more women.

Ted Bundy never tried to get any help, Eric did. Eric not only told a doctor he was suicidal but that he was also homicidal. His doctor did nothing to help him except exchange the one antidepressant he was on for another.

Ted Bundy, a true psychopath, thought of himself and only himself. He would kill people but he himself didn't want to die. He took no one's feelings into consideration. Eric was very concerned about his parents and how this would affect them. And let's not forget, true psychopaths rarely ever commit suicide. Eric did.

And finally, Bundy didn't have a suicidal/homicidal friend in his ear trying to convince him to take out revenge on people. We don't know if Dylan pressured Eric but there was no one pressuring Bundy. He and he alone was responsible for his crimes. Eric's situation is a more complex because it wasn't just him doing the killings. And because they are both dead we have no way of knowing what really happened.

Personally, I do not think Eric was a psychopath but I do respect the opinions of others who think he is. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But what I don't accept is the argument of Eric being a psychopath because of what he wrote in his journal. I'm asking for some real points and arguments to back up him being a psychopath and as of right now, I have not gotten a single one. And I'd also like to know, to those who think Eric is a psychopath, why is he one but Dylan isn't?

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I'm not 100% on the date that Eric became apart of the missions but what I do know is that in their earlier days, Dylan referred to only Zack saying that they 'did everything' together. I assume that meant the missions as well. He said that they were a team and he mentions sabotaging houses for 'the first time' with Zack. He does not mention Eric at all.

Quote :

Ted Bundy showed no remorse for what he did.

Yes, he did.

Quote :

"He wept several times while talking to me. He expressed great regret, remorse for what he had done, for the families that were hurting."

Now, I know there's a difference between showing remorse and actually feeling it.

I call Eric a psychopath because he displays many of the traits associated with psychopathy as outlined in the Psychopathy Checklist. I'm not sure how high he would have scored, and I'm willing to say that he probably wouldn't score as high as Bundy.

Ted Bundy actually had sex with some of  his victims dead bodies that had been lying outside for days in the woods. That makes me shiver each time I remember that.

Undyne wrote:

Quote :

Ted Bundy showed no remorse for what he did.

Yes, he did.  

Quote :

"He wept several times while talking to me. He expressed great regret, remorse for what he had done, for the families that were hurting."

Now, I know there's a difference between showing remorse and actually feeling it.

I call Eric a psychopath because he displays many of the traits associated with psychopathy as outlined in the Psychopathy Checklist.  I'm not sure how high he would have scored, and I'm willing to say that he probably wouldn't score as high as Bundy.  

Seriously? Yea, he felt 'regret' and was 'weeping' because they were going to kill him the following day. Not because of what he did to his victims and/or their families. He was weeping for himself.

You say Eric is a psychopath because he showed traits on said check list? OK, what check list is that and can you tell me what 'traits' you're referring to that don't include things he wrote in his journal?

My point is that Dylan considered Zack his best friend. When Zack 'moved on' Dylan claims he feels lonely and without a friend. He does not indicate or reference Eric...AT ALL. He says 'ALL ALONE and WITHOUT A FRIEND'. This is more about who Dylan originally wanted to go on a shooting spree with and that is Zack NOT ERIC. So HOW did Eric poison Dylan when Dylan is the one who wanted to murder people WITH ZACK not with ERIC? How is Eric the psychopath but Dylan, who talked about murder first isn't?

These are the points I'm trying to make.

Jenn wrote:

Undyne wrote:

Quote :

Ted Bundy showed no remorse for what he did.

Yes, he did.  

Quote :

"He wept several times while talking to me. He expressed great regret, remorse for what he had done, for the families that were hurting."

Now, I know there's a difference between showing remorse and actually feeling it.

I call Eric a psychopath because he displays many of the traits associated with psychopathy as outlined in the Psychopathy Checklist.  I'm not sure how high he would have scored, and I'm willing to say that he probably wouldn't score as high as Bundy.  

Seriously? Yea, he felt 'regret' and was 'weeping' because they were going to kill him the following day. Not because of what he did to his victims and/or their families. He was weeping for himself.

I already said that Bundy was probably not actually feeling any remorse.  You said that he didn't show any remorse.  This is incorrect.  Now, was Eric actually feeling remorse towards anyone?  I have no idea.  I'm willing to bet that he actually was upset by what he was about to do with his parents, but apparently didn't feel enough of it since he went along with the massacre anyway.  "A lack of remorse" doesn't mean none at all.

Quote :

You say Eric is a psychopath because he showed traits on said check list? OK, what check list is that and can you tell me what 'traits' you're referring to that don't include things he wrote in his journal?

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I understand that Eric didn't display all of these traits.

Undyne wrote:

Jenn wrote:

Undyne wrote:

Quote :

Ted Bundy showed no remorse for what he did.

Yes, he did.  

Quote :

"He wept several times while talking to me. He expressed great regret, remorse for what he had done, for the families that were hurting."

Now, I know there's a difference between showing remorse and actually feeling it.

I call Eric a psychopath because he displays many of the traits associated with psychopathy as outlined in the Psychopathy Checklist.  I'm not sure how high he would have scored, and I'm willing to say that he probably wouldn't score as high as Bundy.  

Seriously? Yea, he felt 'regret' and was 'weeping' because they were going to kill him the following day. Not because of what he did to his victims and/or their families. He was weeping for himself.

I already said that Bundy was probably not actually feeling any remorse.  You said that he didn't show any remorse.  This is incorrect.  Now, was Eric actually feeling remorse towards anyone?  I have no idea.  I'm willing to bet that he actually was upset by what he was about to do with his parents, but apparently didn't feel enough of it since he went along with the massacre anyway.  "A lack of remorse" doesn't mean none at all.

Quote :

You say Eric is a psychopath because he showed traits on said check list? OK, what check list is that and can you tell me what 'traits' you're referring to that don't include things he wrote in his journal?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I understand that Eric didn't display all of these traits.

I said Bundy showed no remorse for the things he did, which he didn't. He was crying for himself because he was about to be given his death sentence. The fact that Bundy thought he'd actually get away with what he had done and didn't accept a plea deal for life in prison over the death penalty just shows he was a psychopath, but anyway..

About Eric. With this list there are a total of 20 traits on here and a person has to score at least a 30 for them to be considered a psychopath. That means even with the highest score of 2, Eric would have had to have at least 15 of these traits and have them to the highest extreme to be considered a psychopath.

The most I can come up with is 7 and even at the most extreme case, that would give Eric a score of 14 which would not make him a psychopath. Of course that is just my own opinion, but anyone else can take a look at this list for themselves and will see there are several (about six to eight) of the traits that don't pertain to Eric at all. Even taking 6 away, that would leave 14 and even if Eric portrayed all 14 traits to the highest extreme, that would give him a score of 28, he still would NOT be considered a psychopath.

So please explain how you came to the conclusion that Eric is a psychopath using this list. What traits do you think he portrayed and how did you come up with a score of at least 30, forming your opinion of him being a psychopath?

If Dylan originally wanted to go on a shooting spree with Zach, Zach would have said something about it. Has he ever brought this up Jenn? Somebody would have outed him in one way or another.

I really don't get how hard it is for you to grasp the fact Eric was completely psycho. If Eric's journal is for show then why do people nit pick everything he says in it?

People can't have it both ways. The guy was insane, that's the bottom line.

Sane One wrote:

If Dylan originally wanted to go on a shooting spree with Zach, Zach would have said something about it. Has he ever brought this up Jenn? Somebody would have outed him in one way or another.

I really don't get how hard it is for you to grasp the fact Eric was completely psycho. If Eric's journal is for show then why do people nit pick everything he says in it?

People can't have it both ways. The guy was insane, that's the bottom line.

Look, I'm done making point after point and trying to connect these dots for you. You're entitled to your opinion that Eric is a 'psychopath' but every time I ask how you came to that conclusion you just give me more ramblings about his journal and how he is 'just insane' or he is 'just a psychopath'. Clearly you're not going to back up your opinion with some real points. And up to this point, no one else has either.

And no, I do not 'grasp' Eric being a psychopath because I do not believe he was and I've given tons and tons of points/arguments on why I believe this.

When you can come up with some solid points to make other than 'his journal' and 'he just was', then let me know. I'll be waiting.

Sane One wrote:

If Dylan originally wanted to go on a shooting spree with Zach, Zach would have said something about it. Has he ever brought this up Jenn? Somebody would have outed him in one way or another.

I really don't get how hard it is for you to grasp the fact Eric was completely psycho. If Eric's journal is for show then why do people nit pick everything he says in it?

People can't have it both ways. The guy was insane, that's the bottom line.

I really don't get how hard it is for you to grasp the fact that Eric completely fooled you, and wasn't even close to being a psycho.

If Eric is a "psychopath" then Dylan is also a psychopath. Both of them were not.

Jakeo33 wrote:

He's just super sensitive if you ask me, they probably never did anything "bad" to him, remember they killed 13 people so I think they were prone to over reacting.

Reply of the year. Bravo.

Jenn wrote:

sororityalpha wrote:

Sue Klebold once gave Eric a job reference and said in her BBC interview, "My impressions of Eric, for the most part, was that he was a perfectly normal likeable kid" and she references the only time she saw him act inappropriate was when he freaked out after the soccer game.

Then she discusses the Van break in and she was more cautious of Eric/Dylan's relationship.

But that has nothing to do with her looking into/researching Eric's mental health. I didn't say she didn't mention Eric, I said that she didn't research what caused Eric's actions. So if she implies she thinks Eric was a psychopath, where did she get that conclusion from if she didn't look into it herself?

SK did seem to rally back to Eric's side & feel better about Dylan's relationship with him prior to NBK. I smirked @ Cullen's "assistance" on the book, but in hindsight it was likely more about event details on 4/20 & a lot less about the psychosis of E&D.

Sue had plenty of material from multiple sources including the JeffCo PD, FBI, psychologists, DK's other friends etc to feel good about the E=pyscho & D=depressed theories. Cullen may have mirrored that, but it was likely cemented years before by many others.

I've lightened up on my original thoughts on Sue as I've researched more.. & certainly as she's put herself out to the media with the recent book & interviews. She has as much of a realistic attitude/perception as anyone could expect & certainly has done more than expected in terms of her attempts to "give back".

After one year of really digging into the events of 4/20.. I'm down to JeffCo PD as the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] target for any angst I carry.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
I guess I can't agree since even though  she's his Mom .I expected better and more than the Eric was psychopath and Dylan was just depressed sad, kid lured into this by Eric trope that the book is based. She played down and in some cases left out parts about Dylan's participation in 4/20.I understand that she wants to soften the image of her son somehow, make people see a more sympathetic view of him which I also understand but to do it at the expense of another dead kid who was also her son's best friend is not something I can ever agree with and its not a true or full portrait of DK  or the events that led to his death.
I think that Sue is still in denial about many things. One thing being how close that E &D really were. Dylan certainly never tried to get away from Eric  and in fact went to Eric's house almost every day for at least a year maybe longer. When it came down to it, Eric is the person Dylan chose to die with.
For two friends to have a suicide pact as E &D did even under the circumstances of 4/20 is an enormously meaningful thing. Dylan spent his last few minutes on Earth with Eric. Eric is the last person he ever spoke to.

PaintItBlack wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
I guess I can't agree since even though  she's his Mom .I expected better and more than the Eric was psychopath and Dylan was just depressed sad, kid lured into this by Eric trope that the book is based. She played down and in some cases left out parts about Dylan's participation in 4/20.I understand that she wants to soften the image of her son somehow, make people see a more sympathetic view of him which I also understand but to do it at the expense of another dead kid who was also her son's best friend is not something I can ever agree with and its not a true or full portrait of DK  or the events that led to his death.
I think that Sue is still in denial about many things. One thing being how close that E &D really were. Dylan certainly never tried to get away from Eric  and in fact went to Eric's house almost every day for at least a year maybe longer. When it came down to it, Eric is the person Dylan chose to die with.
For two friends to have a suicide pact as E &D did even under the circumstances of 4/20 is an enormously meaningful thing. Dylan spent his last few minutes on Earth with Eric. Eric is the last person he ever spoke to.

It's all about expectations.. I started out with very few for SK. I remembered articles stating it was 6 months before she came to terms with the idea DK even actually killed anyone.

I think our differences on the matter are about what "she should" come to terms with vs what I expected "she would". I posted months ago what I thought of SK's "coming out" & was heavily critiqued.. I just didn't feel she was gonna be even as realistic as she was.. which still fell short in a lot of peoples opinion.

To take it further, I don't see Eric ever being presented in any other way than what we see today.. the only people who could provide that opportunity are his parents & they don't seem to be likely to do so. No knock on them, it's their choice regardless of how they truly feel. We should all keep in mind, the Klebold's didn't come out on behalf of Dylan or the situation.. Sue Klebold did. Tom & Byron wanted no part of it.

If someone does come out about Eric, it might very well be Kevin.

Kevin had a good relationship with Eric. After the massacre, he told friends that he blamed himself - he went away to college and wasn't around to help his little brother cope with whatever problems he was having.

He even went so far as to name his baby daughter after him. If you thought someone was an irretrievable psychopath - "evil to the core" - you wouldn't do something like that.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Fair enough.Thank you for explaining further where you are coming from. I think we just disagree.

@LPorter,
Do we know for sure that Kevin named  his daughter after Eric? I've heard that but others say its just a rumor.
If this is true, that means that Eric is still very much "present" in his family's life, no matter what others think and that's something truly touching and beautiful.

PaintItBlack wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Fair enough.Thank you for explaining further where you are coming from. I think we just disagree.

@LPorter,
Do we know for sure that Kevin named  his daughter after Eric? I've heard that but others say its just a rumor.
If this is true, that means that Eric is still very much "present" in his family's life, no matter what others think and that's something truly touching and beautiful.

I guess it is only a rumor. Maybe one day we'll know for sure.

The due date for their baby was:

Thursday, September 11, 2014

Interesting...

As someone with antisocial traits, I find it odd that Eric, the supposed psychopath, cried for his parents, saying how well they raised him & how they were just going to be "fucking shocked beyond belief." If that were me, I'd have handled it more like Dylan did, and wouldn't have thought twice about how my parents would feel about it. I'd actually agree with what Dylan said: it's my life and I'm going to live it how I want to.

I personally see Eric as the less psychopathic of the two. Sure his journals were crazy, but remember that these are two kids who knew they would become celebrities based on how outlandish their crime was. And it also doesn't help that every single psychological analysis done post-mortem has relied mostly on his journals. He wrote his journal knowing it would be for an audience. I feel as though deep down, he was not a psychopath, but he wanted to portray that he was one. Why? Because it made him look tougher than he actually was.

Dylan is the more confusing of the two. Surely he had to have known that law enforcement would analyze his writing after he'd died... Is it possible that Dylan wasn't actually the depressed, suicidal loner that Cullen and SK have portrayed him to be -- that he was actually just as, if not more, psychopathic than Eric and did an unbelievable job of fooling everyone around him? Did he know that his journals would pin the blame on Eric?

I find this a plausible theory, mainly because we know that Dylan conspired to go NBK years before he finally teamed up with Eric. NBK was always a thought in the back of Dylan's mind -- kill people and then you die. It was also the only way he could convince Eric to die with him. Eric was angry, but misguided. Dylan, on the other hand, looked for a partner for years, eventually settling with Eric.

So my conclusion is, as not only a researcher but also as someone with ASPD, I can conclude that Eric is not a psychopath. He was an impressionable, sensitive kid who came to the rash conclusion of trying to blow up the school because it reminded him of how unhappy he was with himself.

Dylan confuses me too, but in Sue's book she says that a professional who analyzed his journal told her that he had Avoidant personlity disorder from a very young age, and when his depression became extremely bad he moved toward Schizotypal personality disorder. I can easily see that.  He seemed to be in a little fantasy world most of the time if you base this on his journals.

I've generally felt that it wasn't fair to diagnose Eric as a psychopath based on his journal entries, but I noticed something disturbing in the Rampart Range video. While Dylan is just ecstatic and happy at the damage his bullets did to random things, like a tree, Eric would say things like, "Imagine that in someone's fucking skull".  It could just be him trying to act macho and tough though.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], Eric did say that at RR, but Dylan also said things like "That's a f_____ slug!" in a fiendishly excitable voice.Since he knew what he was going to do in 6 weeks,, I have to wonder if he was thinking about 4/20 too.

Couple big problems with the journal was just for show statement. 1. Eric made it known he wanted to do damage to the school and to others but everybody just took it as a joke like most would back in those days. 2. Eric was more vocal out of the two and would back up everything he said in PUBLIC. He would show love for Hitler and swastikas while in class or at bowling. The guy hated liars but he was a liar himself. You guys dig so deep for answers when the proof is in the pudding. The kid was crazy. Flat out.

Brief moments of empathy don't mean a thing when their a hundreds of examples he was just flat out insane. Not even worth the time to list everything off. Quite frankly, it would be a waste because there are too many.

Dylan was crazy too but it was the type of crazy people can relate too when you're so down and out and depressed. Not only do you want to hurt yourself, often times you think about hurting others. Murder/Suicides happen a lot.

I don't relate with somebody who thinks Hitler is cool and human beings should fend for themselves so only the strong can survive.

I think these arguments would come off a lot better and less condescneding and rude if constant replies weren't "Wow I can't believe you think Eric/Dylan is psycho when it's super obvious it was the other way around!". I don't think the answer is something totally easy to figure out, but some of these arguments are coming off a bit too hostile for me.

Just to reiterate, I don't think Eric was a psychopath. I find some of the stuff used against Eric to be really strange like him bragging about lying constantly, which doesn't seem uncommon for a teen, especially with their parents or peers or being hypocritical about it. Him being charming and confident, etc is something I also fail to buy this when his body language, stance, voice in the videos around Columbine show him to have little to no self esteem. The big one is of course Eric showing no empathy or emotion, which see his final words to his parents or crying about not getting to see childhood friends or calling out of work to tend to his sick pet. I'm well aware professionals have diagnosed him as a psychopath, but I still to this day don't buy it.

I would just love for the general public to at least dig deeper into the case and not just take what the media has said about the case at face value.

Freezingmoon wrote:

Dylan confuses me too, but in Sue's book she says that a professional who analyzed his journal told her that he had Avoidant personlity disorder from a very young age, and when his depression became extremely bad he moved toward Schizotypal personality disorder. I can easily see that.  He seemed to be in a little fantasy world most of the time if you base this on his journals.

I've generally felt that it wasn't fair to diagnose Eric as a psychopath based on his journal entries, but I noticed something disturbing in the Rampart Range video. While Dylan is just ecstatic and happy at the damage his bullets did to random things, like a tree, Eric would say things like, "Imagine that in someone's fucking skull".  It could just be him trying to act macho and tough though.

Eric might not say much, but he looks like a kid on Christmas morning:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Sane One wrote:

Couple big problems with the journal was just for show statement. 1. Eric made it known he wanted to do damage to the school and to others but everybody just took it as a joke like most would back in those days. 2. Eric was more vocal out of the two and would back up everything he said in PUBLIC. He would show love for Hitler and swastikas while in class or at bowling. The guy hated liars but he was a liar himself. You guys dig so deep for answers when the proof is in the pudding. The kid was crazy. Flat out.

Brief moments of empathy don't mean a thing when their a hundreds of examples he was just flat out insane. Not even worth the time to list everything off. Quite frankly, it would be a waste because there are too many.

Who did Eric supposedly make it publicly known to that he wanted to 'do damage' to the school? And how is Eric the only one who backed up wanting to do said damage in public? Uh, are you forgetting that Dylan was there too? Dylan too yelled 'heil Hitler' during bowling class just as much as Eric did. And it's my understanding that Eric actually copied his like of German music from Dylan.

And Eric was a liar? Yea, well, so was Dylan. Dylan was a liar and such a cruel liar that he went to his Mother the morning after the prom and showed her a flask with only a small sip of the liquor missing and said to her 'I want you to know you can trust me and you can trust Robyn'. How cruel and vicious is that? To try and put his Mother at ease just to totally rip her world apart 2 short days later. And yet, you wanna sit here and try to act like Dylan was better than Eric. That Eric was a 'psychopath' but Dylan wasn't because he was 'depressed'. Eric was depressed and suicidal too. Eric told his doctor that his medication was making him constantly feel suicidal and homicidal. Eric was on an ANTIDEPRESSANT. Yet you claim Dylan gets a free 'he wasn't a psychopath' pass because he was depressed and Eric wasn't? The kid who was actually on an antidepressant and openly told his doctor he was depressed/suicidal.

And you're not going to 'list anything off' because you've got nothing and you've had nothing this entire time. You just come back with the same response - 'he just was' or 'he is just insane'. Well if you're a true researcher and are truly interested in understanding what happened at Columbine and the 2 shooters, then why not take the time to back up what you're saying. How do you expect anyone to take you seriously as a researcher or take you seriously during these debates when all you can repeatedly say is 'because he just was'?

And the whole 'I am God' thing, again, was something Dylan referred to himself as first, not Eric. Eric only followed later saying he too was a God and will decide who lives and dies.

I've come to the conclusion that people like you are not truly interested in understanding how Columbine came to fruition. You pick and chose little bits of information and make an entire opinion based on 2 or 3 little things. You do not look at or try to understand the whole picture and even when several members try to connect the dots for you, you just totally disregard what is being said to you and the points people try to make and just come back saying 'well he was just a psychopath and that's all there is to it'. No, that's not all there is to it. Someone isn't 'just a psychopath'. There are many traits and behaviors that go into making someone a psychopath, yet you will not 'waste your time' to explain how you came up with this conclusion, but you will waste your time to keep saying 'he just is'.

And finally, Eric got exactly what he wanted out of you. He wanted people to think he was the mastermind and that he actually was this insane psychopath that he portrayed himself as in the journal. But in reality, he was quite the opposite. He was not a psychopath. He wanted to fit in, he wanted friends, he wanted people to like him and invite him to parties or hang out with him. He picked on people who looked like him because he did not like himself. True psychopaths not only think of themselves as being above everyone else but they actually believe it. Eric did not. He knew he was at the bottom of the food chain, he knew he didn't get any respect, he knew he was picked on because he was smaller. He did not actually believe he was above everyone else, he knew he was at the bottom and that is why he built himself up in his journal. And Eric probably thought to himself that some people would actually fall for that act and he was right, you do. More of you do fall for it than not. So in the end, Eric got exactly what he wanted.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].Right on. You just summed up most of what I believe about Eric. I love this post.
Almost everything summed up in a few paragraphs.