If Dylan ever tried to get away from Eric, he didn't try very hard.

jada887 wrote:

I read the same book, I think. She states that Dylan was a willing and active participant in the shooting. I don't have her book in front of me at the moment, but those places are on pages 172 and 265, if memory serves me.

I acknowledged that, not sure why you think we disagree on that point. I said that despite this she still seemed to make excuses for his problem behaviors along the way (prior to the shooting) and to imply that Eric was pushing Dylan into it.  

thelmar wrote:

Katie Thompson didn't think Eric was dangerous. Her mom and a friend said this but Katie never did. She told police they were friends. He took her to lunch a few weeks before the attack and after the attack, a teacher said Katie wrote nice things about Eric in a project to help the kids heal. The teacher described Katie as having a crush on Eric.

jada887 wrote:

Yes, all true, but so what? Eric could be a charming little bastard when he wasn't actively planning to blow up his school and neighborhood to imitate the Oklahoma City bombing.

You said Katie thought Eric was a dangerous threat. I pointed out she didn't. I never said Eric wasn't dangerous, he did kill people after all.  

jada887 wrote:

Eric started collecting bomb material in 1996. It's not unreasonable to assume that Zach's mother noted Eric's untoward behavior. Dylan, however, never had to worry. His genial personality never raised anyone's suspicions. Not so with Eric.

jada887 wrote:

It's implicit that Zach's mother thought Eric a toxic influence and wanted to forbid the relationship. She didn't have to state verbatim that Eric was a threat. As a mother, you don't have to spell out your reservations about a person's behavior. The reasons are implicit when you forbid a relationship. I thought this point obvious to anyone with teenage children.

You used the term "dangerous threat". This implies she thought Eric was dangerous. You can forbid a relationship for many reasons- the person uses drugs, is a thief, skips school, hacks the school computer and breaks into school lockers (which was Zach's idea, by the way). Forbidding a relationship usually means a parent thinks that person isn't a good influence and might get their kid into trouble. It does not equal this guy is dangerous and is going to kill someone which is what I infer from "dangerous threat." I was just curious as to whether you had information that I had not seen before in which Veronica Heckler talks about thinking Eric was dangerous.

thelmar wrote:

I acknowledged that, not sure why you think we disagree on that point. I said that despite this she still seemed to make excuses for his problem behaviors along the way (prior to the shooting) and to imply that Eric was pushing Dylan into it.  

I don't think she excuses Dylan's participation in the event, but she does acknowledges that he had a serious undiagnosed mental health issue, and she missed those signs. She only posits Eric's persuasive influence because Dylan wasn't mentally well enough to properly extricate himself from the relationship. I agree on both points. I have seen this phenomenon happen time and time again in my clinical practice over the years. I don't think she's excusing Dylan's actions, but she is explaining what she believes happened, and why parents need to stay involved in their children's lives.

thelmar wrote:

You said Katie thought Eric was a dangerous threat. I pointed out she didn't. I never said Eric wasn't dangerous, he did kill people after all.  

I haven't read the 11k report in a long time, but I do remember that Mrs. Thompson did not trust Eric around her daughter, for reasons I can't remember. If I said dangerous, I might have exaggerated, or else, forgotten much of what Mrs. Thompson told the police. I apologize.

thelmar' wrote:

You used the term "dangerous threat". This implies she thought Eric was dangerous. You can forbid a relationship for many reasons- the person uses drugs, is a thief, skips school, hacks the school computer and breaks into school lockers (which was Zach's idea, by the way). Forbidding a relationship usually means a parent thinks that person isn't a good influence and might get their kid into trouble. It does not equal this guy is dangerous and is going to kill someone which is what I infer from "dangerous threat." I was just curious as to whether you had information that I had not seen before in which Veronica Heckler talks about thinking Eric was dangerous.

Well, the purpose here is to protect the child, not to punish. If the mother, or father, thinks that the relationship is toxic, or dangerous, they will usually forbid the relationship. In this case, Mrs. Heckler might have worried that Eric would use those weapons to destroy building or injure others. It's not unreasonable to assume that Zach might get involved. So, therefore, that's probably why Mrs. Heckler didn't want Eric around. His bomb-making and provocative behavior raised too many red flags.

jada887 wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

And what would he do? Vandalize Dylan's home? Big deal.

Wow. Are we now minimizing vandalism? Property damage worth over $500 (Dylan's house exceeded this amount many times over) is a felony.

I didn't know vandalism was a serious threat to life and limb. A real terror that I'm sure Dylan wanted to avoid...by pairing up with Eric and going on a killing spree.

jada887 wrote:

Criminal threats (intimidation) are more serious offenses, and many judges sentence defendants up to 4 years in prison.

If Eric is stupid enough to threaten someone who's got five inches on him, owns pipe bombs and at least one firearm* of their own, and isn't scared of dying, he's go down in history as one of the stupidest criminals to ever live.

*Depending of course, on when this alleged intimidation would occur.

QuestionMark wrote:

I didn't know vandalism was a serious threat to life and limb. A real terror that I'm sure Dylan wanted to avoid...by pairing up with Eric and going on a killing spree.  

Oh, sure. Murder is definitely more serious, of course, although vandalism is a serious criminal offense, too. But I trust Sue Klebold's testimony because she was there, saw the Basement tapes, etc. If she stated to Andrew Solomon that Dylan was afraid of Eric, as well as protective, there's no reason to believe she would she lie; after all, others (including the the Browns) have suggested that Eric was dominant over Dylan. I don't understand why members on this forum think otherwise; there's plenty of evidence to support Sue's conclusion.

QuestionMark wrote:

If Eric is stupid enough to threaten someone who's got five inches on him, owns pipe bombs and at least one firearm* of their own, and isn't scared of dying, he's go down in history as one of the stupidest criminals to ever live.

Well, there's no reason to believe that Dylan's height, or his weapons, intimidated Eric.

jada887 wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

I didn't know vandalism was a serious threat to life and limb. A real terror that I'm sure Dylan wanted to avoid...by pairing up with Eric and going on a killing spree.  

Oh, sure. Murder is definitely more serious, of course, although vandalism is a serious criminal offense, too. But I trust the testimony of Sue Klebold because she was there, saw the Basement tapes, etc. If she stated to Andrew Solomon that Dylan was afraid of Eric, as well as protective, there's no reason to believe she would she lie; after all, others (including the the Browns) have suggested that Eric was dominant over Dylan. I don't understand why members on this forum think otherwise; there's plenty of evidence to support Sue's conclusion.

QuestionMark wrote:

If Eric is stupid enough to threaten someone who's got five inches on him, owns pipe bombs and at least one firearm* of their own, and isn't scared of dying, he's go down in history as one of the stupidest criminals to ever live.

Well, there's no reason to believe that Dylan's height, or his weapons, intimidated Eric.

Most people say Dylan was very loyal to his friends. He was also Eric’s closest and possibly only true friend. I imagine if Dylan ever felt intimidated he could probably at times brush it aside not only to placate Eric but maybe to manage him a bit? It seems like you kind of had to walk on eggshells around him.

jada887 wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

I didn't know vandalism was a serious threat to life and limb. A real terror that I'm sure Dylan wanted to avoid...by pairing up with Eric and going on a killing spree.  

Oh, sure. Murder is definitely more serious, of course, although vandalism is a serious criminal offense, too. But I trust the testimony of Sue Klebold because she was there, saw the Basement tapes, etc. If she stated to Andrew Solomon that Dylan was afraid of Eric, as well as protective, there's no reason to believe she would she lie; after all, others (including the the Browns) have suggested that Eric was dominant over Dylan. I don't understand why members on this forum think otherwise; there's plenty of evidence to support Sue's conclusion.

QuestionMark wrote:

If Eric is stupid enough to threaten someone who's got five inches on him, owns pipe bombs and at least one firearm* of their own, and isn't scared of dying, he's go down in history as one of the stupidest criminals to ever live.

Well, there's no reason to believe that Dylan's height, or his weapons, intimidated Eric.

I don't think Sue is lying at all. However I do think she is contaminated by her thoughts and feelings of her memory of Dylan and who he was before the murderer he became. When I read her book I was of the opinion that she did minimize Dylan's aspects and put more blame on Eric. I know she saw the tapes, she was there she met Eric etc. I just think she has clouded her opinion based on being biased toward her own son.

jada887 wrote:

If she stated to Andrew Solomon that Dylan was afraid of Eric, as well as protective, there's no reason to believe she would she lie; after all, others (including the the Browns) have suggested that Eric was dominant over Dylan.

Never said she was a liar. I said she was wrong.

jada887 wrote:

I don't understand why members on this forum think otherwise; there's plenty of evidence to support Sue's conclusion.

And evidence against it as well.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I agree, but I think Dylan put up with more from Eric than others. He screamed at Dylan after a soccer game and Dylan brushed it off.

I recently learned that Dylan did tell one his friends who I inferred as probably Nate or Zach that Dylan told them Eric got a gun but he would kill him if he told anyone.

Interesting. Can you please, please, please provide where you got this information from? Thanks so much.

QuestionMark wrote:

Never said she was a liar. I said she was wrong.

No, you are accusing her of covering up, or minimizing Dylan's influence in the massacre. I think that's dishonest and unfair, given Dylan's mental illness at the time.

QuestionMark wrote:

And evidence against it as well.

What evidence do you have that Dylan wasn't a follower? The people who knew Dylan the best suggested that he was a follower, albeit a conscious, alert follower. Here's evidence that Dylan was a goofball and a follower:

Stephen Austin Eubanks [19] DK was “goofy looking”
Evan Todd [172] DK had dirty hair
Heidi Johnson [444–5] DK had greasy hair; during attack, EH took the lead and DK followed
Nick Baumgart [1,779–80] DK was follower, gentle
Tyler Chenoweth [1,828] DK was follower; if EH or Chris Morris told him to jump off a cliff, he would
Terry Lawson [3,531] believed EH planned attack, DK followed
Justin Norman [3,931] “goofy” face
Katelyn Place [4,084] DK seemed like follower
Jamie Shofner [4,412] thought DK was strange because he always wore sunglasses
Steve Trujillo [4,650] DK “was kind of a goofy guy;” follower of EH
Daniel Yager [4,806] in class, quiet; didn’t make friends, didn’t say anything
Ben Smith [5,100] DK never interacted in class
Kathryn Ulibarri [5,117] grade school, DK had no friends; quickly angry for no reason
Brian Vincent [5,646] DK was quiet, kept to himself
Dominick Duran [6,024] if EH did something, DK would follow
Aaron Belliston [6,117] could never get DK to talk
Michael Bierman [6,135] DK followed EH; if EH said something, soon DK would be saying same thing
Leslie Burns [6,207] DK was a follower
Jason Cornelius [6,281] surprised by DK’s part in attack; thought DK came under someone’s influence
Melissa Couris [6,287] quiet, didn’t talk to anybody; sat in corner with arms crossed, wore sunglasses in class
Brett O’Neill [6,974] quiet, follower
David Proctor [7,044] DK was very smart, but shy
Zack Rissmiller [7,078] DK was really quiet
Josh Swanson [7,231] outcast in terms of dress and hygiene
Ryan Walda [7,343] DK wore same AOL shirt almost every day
Ms. Peggy Hanifen [7,504] “goofy looking kid”
Alejandra Marsh [9,820] DK had dirty hair
Mindy Pollock [10,011] DK had greasy hair
Roison McEwen [10,188] DK was a follower and EH could talk him into anything
James Thornby [10,201] DK never said much at work; never had good conversation with him
Mr. and Mrs. Klebold [10,507–08] DK was a shy child; extraordinarily shy in high school
Devon Adams [10,618] DK was follower, EH was leader
Brenda Parker [10,845] DK: quiet, goofy-looking, wore funny looking clothes (QS)
Jacob Cram [16,408] DK “had funny hair and clothing styles”
(Redacted) [19,017] could never get DK to talk
(Redacted) [19,648] years ago DK made fun of because he didn’t fit in and was very odd
(Redacted) [19,965] thought DK was weird
[DK Diversion p. 19] DK introverted
[DK Diversion p. 55] probation officer noted DK was “kind of goofy” with “bizarre sense of humor”

What has Dylan's hair got to do with him being a follower?

jada887 wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Never said she was a liar. I said she was wrong.

No, you are accusing her of covering up, or minimizing Dylan's influence in the massacre. I think that's dishonest and unfair, given Dylan's mental illness at the time.

QuestionMark wrote:

And evidence against it as well.

What evidence do you have that Dylan wasn't a follower? The people who knew Dylan the best suggested that he was a follower, albeit a conscious, alert follower. Here's evidence that Dylan was a goofball and a follower:

Stephen Austin Eubanks [19] DK was “goofy looking”
Evan Todd [172] DK had dirty hair
Heidi Johnson [444–5] DK had greasy hair; during attack, EH took the lead and DK followed
Nick Baumgart [1,779–80] DK was follower, gentle
Tyler Chenoweth [1,828] DK was follower; if EH or Chris Morris told him to jump off a cliff, he would
Terry Lawson [3,531] believed EH planned attack, DK followed
Justin Norman [3,931] “goofy” face
Katelyn Place [4,084] DK seemed like follower
Jamie Shofner [4,412] thought DK was strange because he always wore sunglasses
Steve Trujillo [4,650] DK “was kind of a goofy guy;” follower of EH
Daniel Yager [4,806] in class, quiet; didn’t make friends, didn’t say anything
Ben Smith [5,100] DK never interacted in class
Kathryn Ulibarri [5,117] grade school, DK had no friends; quickly angry for no reason
Brian Vincent [5,646] DK was quiet, kept to himself
Dominick Duran [6,024] if EH did something, DK would follow
Aaron Belliston [6,117] could never get DK to talk
Michael Bierman [6,135] DK followed EH; if EH said something, soon DK would be saying same thing
Leslie Burns [6,207] DK was a follower
Jason Cornelius [6,281] surprised by DK’s part in attack; thought DK came under someone’s influence
Melissa Couris [6,287] quiet, didn’t talk to anybody; sat in corner with arms crossed, wore sunglasses in class
Brett O’Neill [6,974] quiet, follower
David Proctor [7,044] DK was very smart, but shy
Zack Rissmiller [7,078] DK was really quiet
Josh Swanson [7,231] outcast in terms of dress and hygiene
Ryan Walda [7,343] DK wore same AOL shirt almost every day
Ms. Peggy Hanifen [7,504] “goofy looking kid”
Alejandra Marsh [9,820] DK had dirty hair
Mindy Pollock [10,011] DK had greasy hair
Roison McEwen [10,188] DK was a follower and EH could talk him into anything
James Thornby [10,201] DK never said much at work; never had good conversation with him
Mr. and Mrs. Klebold [10,507–08] DK was a shy child; extraordinarily shy in high school
Devon Adams [10,618] DK was follower, EH was leader
Brenda Parker [10,845] DK: quiet, goofy-looking, wore funny looking clothes (QS)
Jacob Cram [16,408] DK “had funny hair and clothing styles”
(Redacted) [19,017] could never get DK to talk
(Redacted) [19,648] years ago DK made fun of because he didn’t fit in and was very odd
(Redacted) [19,965] thought DK was weird
[DK Diversion p. 19] DK introverted
[DK Diversion p. 55] probation officer noted DK was “kind of goofy” with “bizarre sense of humor”

It seems you pick and choose what you want to listen to. On Langman's site he also lists so many people stating Eric was a good guy with a kind heart doing things like helping others with work or helping people who were lost on their first day of school. You also quote here Brenda Parker who had never met either boy in real life so take everything with a grain of salt. Its all just opinions.

Some of their closest friends have stated that Eric copied Dylan and that Dylan hated it. That when Dylan became into darker items and trench coats Eric followed suit. We can banter back and forth all day but Dylan first wrote about killing people so I think it was Dylan first and he brought in Eric

Eric seem to have a few separate friends from Dylan. I think Alyssa and Kristi were much closer to him than Dylan.

I think Eric also had a lot of initiative. I’m sure they started talking about it and Eric ran with it. He always seem to have a plan and he was very motivated. We’re still in lesson. I always pictured them complaining about something on Friday and kind of joking about it and then on Monday Eric Has beginnings of a plan laid out in his notebook complete with diagrams

^ Some of those 11k comments are frustratingly vague. Like when Dyl's probation officer said he was kind of goofy with a bizarre sense of humor. What jokes did he crack that were "bizarre"? How exactly was he "goofy"? >_> I wish there was a Dylan version of the "Eric at Columbine" video so we could get a better feel for his personality.

jada887 wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Never said she was a liar. I said she was wrong.

No, you are accusing her of covering up, or minimizing Dylan's influence in the massacre. I think that's dishonest and unfair, given Dylan's mental illness at the time.

Well I don't, so sorry Charlie, but I stand by what I said.

Pixie13 wrote:

What has Dylan's hair got to do with him being a follower?

This.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] If you're going to cite a wealth of sources about Dylan's hair cleanliness then I think we're done here. I'm just going to say I think you should look for evidence against your hypothesis before you continue on, then evaluate it, take it into account, and construct a better argument. I'm going to duck out of this conversation. If you want to claim this as a victory, then by all means I won't stop you.

QuestionMark wrote:

Well I don't, so sorry Charlie, but I stand by what I said.

Ok, that's fine with me. I'm not seeking to change minds. I am just responding to what I think Sue Klebold meant in her book. That's all.

QuestionMark wrote:

If you're going to cite a wealth of sources about Dylan's hair cleanliness then I think we're done here.  

I do apologize. I cut and pasted sections of the 11k from Dr. Langman's website, which links to the entire document. I used Dr. Langman's website because he has organized everything by theme and name. It's very easy to find people's statements to the police there. That's very, very helpful. I admit I cut and pasted without looking too hard at what I was doing because I hadn't much time. So, to make it easier on you, here are the people who suggested Dylan was a follower:

Nick Baumgart [1,779–80] DK was follower, gentle
Tyler Chenoweth [1,828] DK was follower; if EH or Chris Morris told him to jump off a cliff, he would
Terry Lawson [3,531] believed EH planned attack, DK followed
Katelyn Place [4,084] DK seemed like follower
Dominick Duran [6,024] if EH did something, DK would follow
Michael Bierman [6,135] DK followed EH; if EH said something, soon DK would be saying same thing
Leslie Burns [6,207] DK was a follower
Brett O’Neill [6,974] quiet, follower
Roison McEwen [10,188] DK was a follower and EH could talk him into anything
Devon Adams [10,618] DK was follower, EH was leader

QuestionMark wrote:

I'm just going to say I think you should look for evidence against your hypothesis before you continue on, then evaluate it, take it into account, and construct a better argument.

In fact, I reached my conclusions AFTER looking at the evidence. I read all the Columbine books: Ralph Larkin's, Jeff Kass's, Brooks Brown's, and Sue Klebold's, etc, and even read the entire 11K report; I am also a clinical psychologist who listens to people like Dylan and Eric all day long, and I form hypotheses that lead to diagnoses. So, therefore, I originally thought Dylan might be the leader, but I have since changed my mind after perusing the evidence with a fine-toothed comb.
So, I came to my conclusion about Sue Klebold's book passage because it made sense in context with all the available evidence we all have thus far. Did Dylan fear Eric's retaliation? Probably. We know, after all, Eric had a volatile temper. So, therefore, it's reasonable to suggest Dylan used his mother for cover in this scenario.  

QuestionMark wrote:

If you want to claim this as a victory, then by all means I won't stop you.

I am not sure why you think this conversation is a boxing match. As I've said before, I was responding to another poster's comment.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] as a clinical psychologist I am sure you are familiar with the Goldwater rule or as it is also known section 7 in the American Psychiatric Association's (APA) Principles of Medical Ethics?

You haven't examined either patient yourself.

Pixie13 wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] as a clinical psychologist I am sure you are familiar with the Goldwater rule or as it is also known section 7 in the American Psychiatric Association's (APA) Principles of Medical Ethics?

You haven't examined either patient yourself.

Yes, I sure am. Two things here. Number one, I am not offering a medical opinion; I am giving my interpretation of Sue Klebold's book passage. Second, I am not a member of the APA because I am not a psychiatrist. A psychiatrist is a medical doctor; I am not a medical doctor.

I got the sense Sue was trying to make sense of things more than defend Dylan, but I can see how it might look like that.
From watching her talks you can tell she doesn't really blame anyone but Dylan.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Eric seem to have a few separate friends from Dylan. I think Alyssa and Kristi  were much closer to him than Dylan.

I think Eric also had a lot of initiative. I’m sure they started talking about it and Eric ran with it. He always seem to have a plan and he was  very motivated. We’re still in lesson. I always pictured them complaining about something on Friday and kind of joking about it and then on Monday Eric Has beginnings of a plan laid out in his notebook complete with diagrams

I think that's the thing: Eric was Dylan's closest friend especially near the end, but I kind of don't really think I would call Dylan Eric's best friend.

Eric does come off as someone with a lot of initiative to me. I think that is where the leader/follower narrative spawned.

hvernon wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Eric seem to have a few separate friends from Dylan. I think Alyssa and Kristi  were much closer to him than Dylan.

I think Eric also had a lot of initiative. I’m sure they started talking about it and Eric ran with it. He always seem to have a plan and he was  very motivated. We’re still in lesson. I always pictured them complaining about something on Friday and kind of joking about it and then on Monday Eric Has beginnings of a plan laid out in his notebook complete with diagrams

I think that's the thing: Eric was Dylan's closest friend especially near the end, but I kind of don't really think I would call Dylan Eric's best friend.

Eric does come off as someone with a lot of initiative to me. I think that is where the leader/follower narrative spawned.

I think Dylan knew how to manipulate and how to kind of play a part so to speak. I definitely think Dylan was a lot more calculating than people think. But i also do believe he was so shy and awkward and a people pleaser. I know when I was very young a lot of people thought they didn’t pick up on social cues and I finally admitted that I did pick up on social cues I was just being a jerk.

Who do you think was Eric’s best friend other than Dylan? Dylan crossed out a word and put close friend about Eric and Eric wrote down that Dylan was his best friend. I’m trying to remember if Eric wrote down that he only had one close friend and that was Dylan but then Dylan wrote down a few people

Screamingophelia wrote:

hvernon wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Eric seem to have a few separate friends from Dylan. I think Alyssa and Kristi  were much closer to him than Dylan.

I think Eric also had a lot of initiative. I’m sure they started talking about it and Eric ran with it. He always seem to have a plan and he was  very motivated. We’re still in lesson. I always pictured them complaining about something on Friday and kind of joking about it and then on Monday Eric Has beginnings of a plan laid out in his notebook complete with diagrams

I think that's the thing: Eric was Dylan's closest friend especially near the end, but I kind of don't really think I would call Dylan Eric's best friend.

Eric does come off as someone with a lot of initiative to me. I think that is where the leader/follower narrative spawned.

I think Dylan knew how to manipulate and how to kind of play  a part so to speak. I definitely think Dylan was a lot more calculating than people think. But i also do believe he was so shy and awkward and a people pleaser. I know when I was very young a lot of people thought they didn’t pick up on social cues and I finally admitted that I did pick up on social cues I was just being a jerk.

Who do you think was Eric’s best friend other than  Dylan? Dylan crossed out a word and put close friend about Eric and Eric wrote down that Dylan was his best friend. I’m trying to remember if Eric wrote down that he only had one close friend and that was Dylan but then Dylan wrote down a few people

I wish I had a good answer, but I really don't. I always got the impression from everything we know and all the writings we've read that Dylan was just way closer to Eric than Eric was to Dylan. I wish I was better with words and knew how to really articulate my thoughts without being so messy. Eric seems like that kind of kid in school who never really had a best friend. He was "everyone's" friend. (Obviously not everyone because of his shit lists, but you get the idea.) I would certainly call him more outgoing. It seems to me that Eric had plenty of good friends around and that Dylan was a very close one.

Of course, both boys had depression. I don't really think Eric was the kind to show it. I think they dealt with it very differently. Imo, Dylan just immediately latched onto Eric and projected a lot of his own depression back onto him. Like Dylan saw Eric as the person he could be honest with about everything. He could reveal his true thoughts and feelings and even his mental health. Where as, Eric had lots of people he could talk to about everything, but he didn't use his friends as an outlet for his mental health. That wasn't really how Eric dealt with it. But Dylan dealt with it that way. Dylan used Eric for that. This becomes more and more prevalent the closer to the shooting as we see Dylan start to push away other friends. Eric was certainly his best friend. Eric had many friends, some better than others. Dylan would likely be at the top of his list of friends. But I don't know if I'd call Dylan his best friend. Why? What would I call him? Good questions, but I would need more time to reflect on that.

jada887 wrote:

I am not sure why you think this conversation is a boxing match. As I've said before, I was responding to another poster's comment.

I might've misinterpreted your tone as being more hostile than it actually was. I apologize for that.

hvernon wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

hvernon wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Eric seem to have a few separate friends from Dylan. I think Alyssa and Kristi  were much closer to him than Dylan.

I think Eric also had a lot of initiative. I’m sure they started talking about it and Eric ran with it. He always seem to have a plan and he was  very motivated. We’re still in lesson. I always pictured them complaining about something on Friday and kind of joking about it and then on Monday Eric Has beginnings of a plan laid out in his notebook complete with diagrams

I think that's the thing: Eric was Dylan's closest friend especially near the end, but I kind of don't really think I would call Dylan Eric's best friend.

Eric does come off as someone with a lot of initiative to me. I think that is where the leader/follower narrative spawned.

I think Dylan knew how to manipulate and how to kind of play  a part so to speak. I definitely think Dylan was a lot more calculating than people think. But i also do believe he was so shy and awkward and a people pleaser. I know when I was very young a lot of people thought they didn’t pick up on social cues and I finally admitted that I did pick up on social cues I was just being a jerk.

Who do you think was Eric’s best friend other than  Dylan? Dylan crossed out a word and put close friend about Eric and Eric wrote down that Dylan was his best friend. I’m trying to remember if Eric wrote down that he only had one close friend and that was Dylan but then Dylan wrote down a few people

I wish I had a good answer, but I really don't. I always got the impression from everything we know and all the writings we've read that Dylan was just way closer to Eric than Eric was to Dylan. I wish I was better with words and knew how to really articulate my thoughts without being so messy. Eric seems like that kind of kid in school who never really had a best friend. He was "everyone's" friend. (Obviously not everyone because of his shit lists, but you get the idea.) I would certainly call him more outgoing. It seems to me that Eric had plenty of good friends around and that Dylan was a very close one.

Of course, both boys had depression. I don't really think Eric was the kind to show it. I think they dealt with it very differently. Imo, Dylan just immediately latched onto Eric and projected a lot of his own depression back onto him. Like Dylan saw Eric as the person he could be honest with about everything. He could reveal his true thoughts and feelings and even his mental health. Where as, Eric had lots of people he could talk to about everything, but he didn't use his friends as an outlet for his mental health. That wasn't really how Eric dealt with it. But Dylan dealt with it that way. Dylan used Eric for that. This becomes more and more prevalent the closer to the shooting as we see Dylan start to push away other friends. Eric was certainly his best friend. Eric had many friends, some better than others. Dylan would likely be at the top of his list of friends. But I don't know if I'd call Dylan his best friend. Why? What would I call him? Good questions, but I would need more time to reflect on that.

This is so interesting to me, because I have always thought the opposite. Especially since Dylan called Eric a good friend but Eric called him his best friend. Dylan had a lot of people he could talk to and share things with, but didn't share these things with Eric. He could cry in front of Zach and Devon and I don't think he ever cried in front of Eric. I always thought it was telling that Eric got emotional on the Basement Tapes when he was alone but was trying to be this "evil mastermind" in front of Dylan on the tapes.


I agree Dylan was pushing people away towards the end, and I think he tried to do little nice things for them though. Trying to give them good last memories of him because he knew come that Tuesday their last memories of him would be horrific (dancing with Devon, taking Robyn to prom, having a cigarette with Nate)

QuestionMark wrote:

jada887 wrote:

I am not sure why you think this conversation is a boxing match. As I've said before, I was responding to another poster's comment.

I might've misinterpreted your tone as being more hostile than it actually was. I apologize for that.

No, offense taken.

Screamingophelia wrote:

hvernon wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Eric seem to have a few separate friends from Dylan. I think Alyssa and Kristi  were much closer to him than Dylan.

I think Eric also had a lot of initiative. I’m sure they started talking about it and Eric ran with it. He always seem to have a plan and he was  very motivated. We’re still in lesson. I always pictured them complaining about something on Friday and kind of joking about it and then on Monday Eric Has beginnings of a plan laid out in his notebook complete with diagrams

I think that's the thing: Eric was Dylan's closest friend especially near the end, but I kind of don't really think I would call Dylan Eric's best friend.

Eric does come off as someone with a lot of initiative to me. I think that is where the leader/follower narrative spawned.

I think Dylan knew how to manipulate and how to kind of play  a part so to speak. I definitely think Dylan was a lot more calculating than people think. But i also do believe he was so shy and awkward and a people pleaser. I know when I was very young a lot of people thought they didn’t pick up on social cues and I finally admitted that I did pick up on social cues I was just being a jerk.

Who do you think was Eric’s best friend other than  Dylan? Dylan crossed out a word and put close friend about Eric and Eric wrote down that Dylan was his best friend. I’m trying to remember if Eric wrote down that he only had one close friend and that was Dylan but then Dylan wrote down a few people

If you go off the diversion records, Eric stated he had 1 friend while Dylan listed that he had several. I am of the opinion that by end of 98 Eric really only had Dylan. I do think Dylan had other friends but was choosing to stay close to mainly Eric. Which is why the gay comments came out and people only saw one with the other etc