Between the two: Why Dylan Couldn't Say No to Eric

Why do you think Dylan couldn't say no to Eric? As taken from Sue's book, pretty thought provoking:

Quote :

After the two boys got into trouble in their junior year, Dylan made an attempt to distance himself, and he asked for my help. We developed an internal shorthand: If Eric called to ask Dylan to do something, he’d say, “Let me ask my mom,” and shake his head at me. I’d say, loudly enough to be heard on the other end of the line, “I’m sorry, but you can’t go out tonight, Dylan. You promised you’d clean your room/do your homework/join us for dinner.”

At the time, I was simply happy that Dylan wanted distance. I had told both my sons they could always use me as an excuse in an emergency. I was thinking particularly of drinking and driving, but I meant any unsafe situation. So I was pleased, not only that Dylan had taken me up on my long-standing offer, but that he’d found a way to separate from his friend without hurting Eric’s feelings.

After I saw the dynamic between Eric and Dylan on the Basement Tapes, I found myself revisiting this episode in a new light. If Dylan didn’t want to go out with Zack or Nate or Robyn or any of his other friends, he simply told them so: “Nah, I can’t this weekend. I need to write this paper.” Only with Eric did he need me to bail him out. I never wondered about that or thought to ask Dylan: “Why can’t you just say no?” Asking for my help seemed like a sign of his good judgment, but afterward I realized that it was a portent of something much more disturbing.

Now from my end, I have established that Dylan had deliberately always been by Eric's side, taking his orders and almost being as we all initially thought or still think "a follower", only because he needed him to go through with NBK, because Eric was a good planner and a doer and he brought Dylan's fantasy to life. However between the two of them, It may have seemed Dylan had a hard time declining Eric, almost as if intimidated. Perhaps just through this scenario, but it may have occurred a couple of times, but also through other events. For example, Eric blowing a fuse during a soccer game and Dylan just standing there and taking it. What do you guys think? and Is it somehow almost true, that Eric was the controlling of the two, just because he was very vocal?

I think he was a bit intimidated. He didn't want to piss him off, perhaps he was worried that if he does something Eric wouldn't like (in this case avoid him) he might end up on bad terms with him and he will start to treat him like he once treated their friend Brooks. It didn't take much for Eric to get upset.

I think about Dylan "visiting the human side" as he put it. Perhaps he had times where he was at home with his parents watching movies, eating dinner together etc and that made him not want to do NBK so he wanted to not be with Eric, but then when he was away from home or removed himself from "the human side" to be with Eric he no longer cared anymore and wanted to go back to NBK.

I don't think Dylan was ever scared of Eric at all really.


I do think when they were together that Dylan was the more passive of the 2 at least when they were around other people. It seems based on the BT though that Dylan was just as vocal and hateful so I think the tapes may be the true Dylan that we didn't see in other aspects of his life.

I believe Dylan desperately wanted to die, but was hesitant about suicide (or else he would have just done it at home). Eric, through NBK, was a means to his end. For more on this, see the stickied "Dylan's Journal" thread in this section.
I don't think it anything to do with Dylan not wanting to say no to Eric, if anything, ultimately, it may have been the other way around!

I've read somewhere that Eric was always being the target of many of the jocks. Dylan though was too tall and too aloof to even care about what the jocks do. So pretty much I think Dylan was sympathetic for Eric. Sue also stated somewhere in her book that Eric helped Dylan turn in depression into rage and Eric fed off of Dylan's depression to fuel his rage. It just shows how dynamic the two were together.

Vii wrote:

I think he was a bit intimidated. He didn't want to piss him off, perhaps he was worried that if he does something Eric wouldn't like (in this case avoid him) he might end up on bad terms with him and he will start to treat him like he once treated their friend Brooks. It didn't take much for Eric to get upset.

Do you think it's because he values Eric as a person + their friendship? Or he can't jeopardize his role in their planning?

LizPuff wrote:

I think about Dylan "visiting the human side" as he put it. Perhaps he had times where he was at home with his parents watching movies, eating dinner together etc and that made him not want to do NBK so he wanted to not be with Eric, but then when he was away from home or removed himself from "the human side" to be with Eric he no longer cared anymore and wanted to go back to NBK.

Hmm...I get that. I'm like that sometimes. Kinda like when he's with family he switches off fantasy and that includes Eric so, he's not really in the mood.

However it doesn't really explain him having to decline meeting Eric at that point of time like, what difference is it to the other times he's with Eric.

ThoughtBox wrote:

I believe Dylan desperately wanted to die, but was hesitant about suicide (or else he would have just done it at home). Eric, through NBK, was a means to his end. For more on this, see the stickied "Dylan's Journal" thread in this section.
I don't think it anything to do with Dylan not wanting to say no to Eric, if anything, ultimately, it may have been the other way around!

ahhh i see....good point! Yes i'll check it out.

I don't know. I just think both Dylan and Eric had times where they had second thoughts about NBK.

On the other hand.....maybe this was the case like the flask he had on Prom night. He showed his mother the flask and she didn't know if this was a good thing or a stab toward her...maybe he really didn't want to hang out with Eric and asked for her help or maybe there was another intention

I guess I am having a hard time putting my thoughts into words...sorry [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] nah babygirl it's alright i'm pretty dazed too right now myself :X

Lizpuff wrote:

maybe he really didn't want to hang out with Eric and asked for her help or maybe there was another intention

That's very possible. Maybe it was just another way of deceiving his mom by making her believe that he was "getting his life back on track" after his arrest. It's actually hard for me to believe that he was really avoiding Eric during that time. It might have been a portrayal to his parents. Meanwhile he was still hanging out with him and well.. slowly started to prepare for the massacre.

liquorvamp wrote:

Vii wrote:

I think he was a bit intimidated. He didn't want to piss him off, perhaps he was worried that if he does something Eric wouldn't like (in this case avoid him) he might end up on bad terms with him and he will start to treat him like he once treated their friend Brooks. It didn't take much for Eric to get upset.

Do you think it's because he values Eric as a person + their friendship? Or he can't jeopardize his role in their planning?

Both. He sure considered Eric to be his close friend and he probably was the only one who was down to go NBK with him (since he didn't have a girlfriend).

I think Sue put that in her book because she thought it further proved the poor misled Dylan theory, but I think Dylan did that to make himself look good in front of his parents so they'd think he was on the right path again and get off his back.
And by Sue's own admission, it worked.I think Dylan was adept at knowing what would work with his parents and what they wanted to hear.

He sure didn't stay away from Eric for long.For the last several months he was at Eric's so often one of the neighbor's thought he lived there.

Vii wrote:

LizPuff wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
maybe he really didn't want to hang out with Eric and asked for her help or maybe there was another intention

That's very possible. Maybe it was just another way of deceiving his mom by making her believe that he was "getting his life back on track" after his arrest. It's actually hard for me to believe that he was really avoiding Eric during that time. It might have been a portrayal to his parents. Meanwhile he was still hanging out with him and well.. slowly started to prepare for the massacre.

Good one.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] good one! thank you!

It sure slipped my mind that Dylan could be facading to his parents aswell. Man that guy sure was one of a kind.

If Dylan wanted to distance himself from Eric he would have done it. But I bet he knew that this would "gave Eric hell", after all he was his bestfriend and maybe the only one? I think that Dylan cared about Eric, he knew him like no one else did. For Dylan, Eric was more of a ticket for afterlife rather than a friend. I dont know what to say about Sue's book. She believes only what she wants to and ignores many bad things about Dylan. She is stuck with that depressed image of Dylan. At the end of the book I got the feeling that Dylan was humanized and Eric was demonized.

Kida wrote:

If Dylan wanted to distance himself from Eric he would have done it. But I bet he knew that this would "gave Eric hell", after all he was his bestfriend and maybe the only one? I think that Dylan cared about Eric, he knew him like no one else did. For Dylan, Eric was more of a ticket for afterlife rather than a friend. I dont know what to say about Sue's book. She believes only what she wants to and ignores many bad things about Dylan. She is stuck with that depressed image of Dylan. At the end of the book I got the feeling that Dylan was humanized and Eric was demonized.

So he legitimately had a hard time declining Eric you mean, because he really couldn't. He knew that Eric would've picked this up and drove him crazy that his closest friend is ditching him...
I wish I could tell that they both cared about one another. Because I definitely agree that Eric was his ticket to afterlife.

Yes, Sue's book humanized Dylan and demonized Eric. But man everyone already knows that Dylan was the winning manipulator of the two. I even said so myself that Eric shouldn't have met Dylan really. And also, I don't wanna feel bad for Eric, but people kept calling him a bad seed and ignoring him and he notices that. It made him feel like shit.

I  also tend to believe that Dylan pitied Eric, somehow...

I think Dylan suffered from Avoidant Personality (this theory is backed be some doctors) and people with this disorder have a very difficult time with "healthy" confrontation and saying "no" to other people. I don't think Dylan was necessarily intimidated by Eric and I don't think he was afraid of Eric.  He just simply couldn't say no to Eric. Maybe he felt some slight pity for Eric too, because it seems that Eric didn't have quite as many friends as Dylan.

The dynamics of their friendship fascinate me because they were so loyal to each other, and it's hard to imagine a teenage boy being that loyal to anyone.

Dylan def. didn't need Eric. He had his own set of friends. On his diversion paperwork Dylan wrote that he had several close friends. Eric mentioned having one. Eric needed Dylan more than Dylan needed Eric.

Lizpuff wrote:

Dylan def. didn't need Eric.  He had his own set of friends.  On his diversion paperwork Dylan wrote that he had several close friends.  Eric mentioned having one.  Eric needed Dylan more than Dylan needed Eric.

. True.

Kida wrote:

I  also tend to believe that Dylan pitied Eric, somehow...

I'm pretty sure he did because Eric was the biggest target for most of the jocks while Dylan was too tall and too aloof for the jocks to care about.

aquillina wrote:

Kida wrote:

I  also tend to believe that Dylan pitied Eric, somehow...

I'm pretty sure he did because Eric was the biggest target for most of the jocks while Dylan was too tall and too aloof for the jocks to care about.

I think also though that Eric kinda put himself out there more. Dylan was shy and quiet. He sat in the back of the class and didn't call attention to himself.

There are people that would say Eric was quiet, but many say that he would pick fights with people and make rude and loud comments. I think the jocks took more notice of Eric rather than Dylan.

Wow you guys, I'm seeing a very interesting contrast of thoughts here.

FreezingMoon wrote:

I think Dylan suffered from Avoidant Personality (this theory is backed be some doctors) and people with this disorder have a very difficult time with "healthy" confrontation and saying "no" to other people. I don't think Dylan was necessarily intimidated by Eric and I don't think he was afraid of Eric. He just simply couldn't say no to Eric. Maybe he felt some slight pity for Eric too, because it seems that Eric didn't have quite as many friends as Dylan.

The dynamics of their friendship fascinate me because they were so loyal to each other, and it's hard to imagine a teenage boy being that loyal to anyone.

This is really interesting, I haven't thought of it this way. It could be true since he's the same way towards his mother although that could just be him pretending to be a good boy.... and yeah, a couple have said he may have pitied Eric. That's no surprise although I'm sure Eric would've HATED that if he knew that about him.

LOYALTY. yeah, that's fascinating to me too! They were literally loyal till the end.

LizPuff wrote:

Dylan def. didn't need Eric. He had his own set of friends. On his diversion paperwork Dylan wrote that he had several close friends. Eric mentioned having one. Eric needed Dylan more than Dylan needed Eric.

Well I guess you could say so. In terms of social aspects Dylan got the upperhand since he already came with a couple of friends, girl friends, he was taller and cooler and he got by. but, I think they needed each other equally. At the least Dylan needed Eric for the massacre.

No doubt that Eric needed Dyl in a heartbeat cause he wouldn't be caught dead wandering around alone without his friends, but YET, he was dating more girls than Dylan ever did.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] @acquilina Yeah the jocks def left Dylan alone cause he was physically taller/intimidating and how aloof he was as you put it easily set them to leave him alone but Eric was just easy target. aside from being small he was vocal and confrontational but just because he was I didn't mind that about him, it meant he wasn't scared of speaking his mind. at times Dylan could get that way too. But I understand pity coming from Dyl since his friend could easily get picked on.

They both had their fair share of being taunted on tbh...

liquorvamp wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] good one! thank you!

It sure slipped my mind that Dylan could be facading to his parents aswell. Man that guy sure was one of a kind.

Thank you:)

When it comes down to it even though Dylan had more friends on his own than Eric,I feel the two boys needed each other equally.
They obviously had a lot in common and shared a lot of the same worldview and beliefs.I think they both filled a void in the others life and provided many things the other needed.
There is a scene in RR that drives this home for me.
Eric is talking to Mark Manes about one of the guns and Eric is so involved in the conversation that Dylan calls out"Reb, Reb, Reb, Reb" several times until he got Eric's attention.It's a simple exchange sure but I saw something in that that really proved to me just beyond my own feelings and beliefs about how close they really were.You can say that they needed each other to pull off 4/20 and that's true but I think they needed each other very much in life too.
I don't think Dylan's Mom will ever be able to see and understand just how close the boys were and that Dylan needed Eric as much as Eric needed him.To admit this would mean her poor misled Dylan theory would start falling apart.

PaintItBlack wrote:

liquorvamp wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] good one! thank you!

It sure slipped my mind that Dylan could be facading to his parents aswell. Man that guy sure was one of a kind.

Thank you:)

When it comes down to it even though Dylan had more friends on his own than Eric,I feel the two boys needed each other equally.
They obviously had a lot in common and shared a lot of the same worldview and beliefs.I think they both filled a void in the others life and provided many things the other needed.
There is a scene in RR that drives this home for me.
Eric is talking to Mark Manes about one of the guns and Eric is so involved in the conversation that Dylan calls out"Reb, Reb, Reb, Reb" several times until he got Eric's attention.It's a simple exchange sure but I saw something in that that really proved to me just beyond my own feelings and beliefs about how close they really were.You can say that they needed each other to pull off 4/20 and that's true but I think they needed each other very much in life too.
I don't think Dylan's Mom will ever be able to see and understand just how close the boys were and that Dylan needed Eric as much as Eric needed him.To admit this would mean her poor misled Dylan theory would start falling apart.

Too true. Despite the fact that Dylan was practically living at Eric's house....Nate was still his bff right?? lol

Have there been any reports or stories of either one sleeping over at one another's house? Or drinking and passing out there? IDK why it's kinda cute and endearing to me.

liquorvamp wrote:

Have there been any reports or stories of either one sleeping over at one another's house? Or drinking and passing out there? IDK why it's kinda cute and endearing to me.

You mean about Eric and Dylan? Yes. Eric in fact "slept" over at Dylan's on April 16 99. They made the bt from Dylan's house that night.

But there are several people including family members stating that they both slept over at each other's houses.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Oh okay interesting, thank you. That's one info I actually didn't know yet, the bt was made at Dyl's house.

liquorvamp wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Oh okay interesting, thank you. That's one info I actually didn't know yet, the bt was made at Dyl's house.

Only one of the clips was made at Dylan's house. The rest were at Eric's house or in the car.

You could see Dylan's tux for prom in his room while they are practicing gearing up.

Lizpuff wrote:

liquorvamp wrote:

Have there been any reports or stories of either one sleeping over at one another's house? Or drinking and passing out there? IDK why it's kinda cute and endearing to me.

You mean about Eric and Dylan?  Yes.  Eric in fact "slept" over at Dylan's on April 16 99.  They made the bt from Dylan's house that night.  

But there are several people including family members stating that they both slept over at each other's houses.  

I think he planned to sleep over but eventually he had left home. Sue described in her book that the bed in the guest room Eric was supposed to sleep in that night wasn't even touched when she woke up the next morning. Apparently Eric ended up not staying at Dylan's, I wonder why.

Vii wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

liquorvamp wrote:

Have there been any reports or stories of either one sleeping over at one another's house? Or drinking and passing out there? IDK why it's kinda cute and endearing to me.

You mean about Eric and Dylan?  Yes.  Eric in fact "slept" over at Dylan's on April 16 99.  They made the bt from Dylan's house that night.  

But there are several people including family members stating that they both slept over at each other's houses.  

I think he planned to sleep over but eventually he had left home. Sue described in her book that the bed in the guest room Eric was supposed to sleep in that night wasn't even touched when she woke up the next morning. Apparently Eric ended up not staying at Dylan's, I wonder why.

Dylan's dad stated that Eric left the next morning without the duffle bag he had arrived with. IMO, Eric DID stay overnight. They just didn't sleep. I think they stayed up the entire night practicing gearing up and other preparations.

Lizpuff wrote:

Vii wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

liquorvamp wrote:

Have there been any reports or stories of either one sleeping over at one another's house? Or drinking and passing out there? IDK why it's kinda cute and endearing to me.

You mean about Eric and Dylan?  Yes.  Eric in fact "slept" over at Dylan's on April 16 99.  They made the bt from Dylan's house that night.  

But there are several people including family members stating that they both slept over at each other's houses.  

I think he planned to sleep over but eventually he had left home. Sue described in her book that the bed in the guest room Eric was supposed to sleep in that night wasn't even touched when she woke up the next morning. Apparently Eric ended up not staying at Dylan's, I wonder why.

Dylan's dad stated that Eric left the next morning without the duffle bag he had arrived with.  IMO, Eric DID stay overnight.  They just didn't sleep.  I think they stayed up the entire night practicing gearing up and other preparations.

Where did he say that? He must've left super early then, Sue says he was gone when she woke up. You're right - if he really stayed, they most likely didn't sleep at all. Sometimes I wonder how much tension they must've felt as the day got closer.

Vii wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Vii wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

liquorvamp wrote:

Have there been any reports or stories of either one sleeping over at one another's house? Or drinking and passing out there? IDK why it's kinda cute and endearing to me.

You mean about Eric and Dylan?  Yes.  Eric in fact "slept" over at Dylan's on April 16 99.  They made the bt from Dylan's house that night.  

But there are several people including family members stating that they both slept over at each other's houses.  

I think he planned to sleep over but eventually he had left home. Sue described in her book that the bed in the guest room Eric was supposed to sleep in that night wasn't even touched when she woke up the next morning. Apparently Eric ended up not staying at Dylan's, I wonder why.

Dylan's dad stated that Eric left the next morning without the duffle bag he had arrived with.  IMO, Eric DID stay overnight.  They just didn't sleep.  I think they stayed up the entire night practicing gearing up and other preparations.

Where did he say that? He must've left super early then, Sue says he was gone when she woke up. You're right - if he really stayed, they most likely didn't sleep at all. Sometimes I wonder how much tension they must've felt as the day got closer.

It was in the 11k. I will try to find the exact page

Ok here it is: This is on pg 10513 in the 11k:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Thank You!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Thank you guys.

I don't think they slept at all when together.

I think that Dylan looked to Eric as a brother and saw a lot of himself in Eric. Not only that Dylan didn't want to disappoint Eric.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that's interesting...I see that as possible, how about vice versa? How does Eric see Dylan and what if he disappointed him?

I think when you have a friendship that deep that you feel that comfortable with someone ... if Dylan would have told Eric No! I really don't think Eric would have involved the school..,and i don't think he would have pushed Dylan... but i don't believe Eric Would be here today either way ... it sounds to me  both had there minds made up in what they were doing.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] such an interesting dynamic where two people kept their promise to commit the worse till the end. Hence why Columbine is extremely interesting, even Eric and Dylan as individuals.

Do you believe there was anything or anyone that could have come in between Eric and Dylan? I'm sure Nate could have come between the two if he had known. Even till this day Nate still visits Sue whenever he's in town.

aquillina wrote:

Do you believe there was anything or anyone that could have come in between Eric and Dylan? I'm sure Nate could have come between the two if he had known. Even till this day Nate still visits Sue whenever he's in town.

good question.
I.....mmmh, I think it would depend on when the person came between them. If it were way too far into their planning I doubt it would work, the two were set and ready to kill and die. Haven't really thought this through. I think it would depend on who aswell.
Maybe eric and dylan had the most fated connection ever and nothing could slice it apart.

I do not believe that anything could have come between them... except a parent, but other than that NO...

Maybe a girlfriend? If either of them ever had one.

True...

I think they both established that a murder-suicide was their only way out. They basically raised their white flags up to people and the world, they must've been extremely determined no turning back. Love, sex, a parent, it would have to be a whole 360 to get through to them and snap them out of it. Nevertheless going back to 1999, nobody did.