What made Eric suicidal?

I've been thinking quite a bit about this. So, I'm going to put it in a thread of it's own.

What made Eric suicidal?

Dylan was obviously in a lot of suffering and wanted to die. Eric, on the other hand, claimed that he was enjoying his hate and doesn't seem suicidal to me. How did he convince himself that his life had no value?

In his journal, he seems to find the idea of attacking his school to be thoroughly enjoyable. Did he really believe that half and hour of fun was worth dying for?

Eric claims that he and Dylan are superior to other humans. Yet, he believes they are worth dying for? He's putting very little value on his own "superior" life. His claims that he's kicking Natural Selection up a few notches amounts to little more than seeing himself as a disposable can of fly spray.

I think suicide was always the endgame for Eric. Partly because he was realistic enough to know that there was no other way out, and partly because he truly wanted to die. He's not as obvious about wanting to die as Dylan was, but it's there. He couldn't picture any other end to his hate and misery. Most of us can have times when we're sad or even depressed but be able to say it'll be better _____ (tomorrow, next year, after high school, when this happens, etc.) He couldn't.

I will sooner die than betray my own thoughts, but before I leave this worthless place, I will kill whoever I deem unfit

The whole world was worthless. There was nothing in it for him. Makes me sad because I have been there, have had those feelings, but I was able to come out of it and he never was. I always think, if they had just waited a little longer, if something had come between them, if someone had discovered the plan and was able to stop it, they could have gotten help. What a waste.

Wideawake wrote:

I think suicide was always the endgame for Eric. Partly because he was realistic enough to know that there was no other way out, and partly because he truly wanted to die. He's not as obvious about wanting to die as Dylan was, but it's there. He couldn't picture any other end to his hate and misery. Most of us can have times when we're sad or even depressed but be able to say it'll be better _____ (tomorrow, next year, after high school, when this happens, etc.) He couldn't.

I will sooner die than betray my own thoughts, but before I leave this worthless place, I will kill whoever I deem unfit

That quote does seem to best sum up Eric's mentality.

But it still confuses me that Eric held to the claim that he was "superior" to others. How did he reconcile taking anti-depressants and contemplating suicide with being a superior person? Did his anti-depressant prescription hurt his pride?

I get that he believed the world was a worthless place, not worth living in, and that he raged at people for making it that way, but didn't it bother him that in choosing suicide he was making himself a victim of "inferior" beings?

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The whole world was worthless. There was nothing in it for him. Makes me sad because I have been there, have had those feelings, but I was able to come out of it and he never was. I always think, if they had just waited a little longer, if something had come between them, if someone had discovered the plan and was able to stop it, they could have gotten help. What a waste.

Do you believe that Eric would have gone through with the attack without Dylan?

The fact that he was being treated like shit at school every day.

Ivan wrote:

The fact that he was being treated like shit at school every day.

I definitely accept this. But why didn't Eric plan a revenge attack that didn't require his own suicide? He could have attempted to plant a bomb anonymously?

RaiseTheFist wrote:

Ivan wrote:

The fact that he was being treated like shit at school every day.

I definitely accept this. But why didn't Eric plan a revenge attack that didn't require his own suicide? He could have attempted to plant a bomb anonymously?

I agree that Eric was a suicidal person. But I also think fame was a huge motivating factor so if he planted the bomb anonymously than he wouldn't have recieved the fame he wanted and we wouldn't be talking about it 14 years later.

CatherineM813,

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I agree that Eric was a suicidal person. But I also think fame was a huge motivating factor so if he planted the bomb anonymously than he wouldn't have recieved the fame he wanted and we wouldn't be talking about it 14 years later.

Eric certainly wanted fame, but this is a fairly strange thing to want because dead people can't enjoy their success. What do you think made him feel that having people "talking about it 14 years later" was preferable to being alive?

RaiseTheFist wrote:

CatherineM813,

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I agree that Eric was a suicidal person. But I also think fame was a huge motivating factor so if he planted the bomb anonymously than he wouldn't have recieved the fame he wanted and we wouldn't be talking about it 14 years later.

Eric certainly wanted fame, but this is a fairly strange thing to want because dead people can't enjoy their success. What do you think made him feel that having people "talking about it 14 years later" was preferable to being alive?

If Eric and Dylan had not committed suicide than they would most likely gone to jail for the rest of their lives which I'm
Personally glad that did not happen. They also couldn't enjoy their fame/infamy there. Eric and Dylan would receive what they wanted: revenge against the school and the community, death and fame all at the same time.

I think he thought life wasnt worth living anymore and believed things would never get better for him but having tons of infamy sounded much better than putting up with a life and world he hated. I hope I explained this well and makes sense.

Thank you to everyone for your responses. They've all been appreciated.

I understand that Eric thought "going out with a bang" was preferable to living a life he hated. That makes sense.

But I can only wonder if he ever considered that taking anti-depressants and contemplating suicide weren't very "godlike" behaviors.

Eric had a lot of pride. Did it ever bother him that in committing suicide, he might be seen as a victim of an "inferior" human race?

Also, he became famous. People are talking about him. But why did he even care about "inferior" beings talking about him? If he was sending a message about how "godlike" he was... why would he even bother sending ANY kind of message to the "inferior" human race? If he honestly saw the human race as inferior, why bother communicating with them at all?

I wrote out this long, well-thought out response and then accidently erased the motherfucker before I could hit post it. Damn it. Anyway.

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Do you believe that Eric would have gone through with the attack without Dylan?

Had to think about this for a bit, but honestly...no. I think, had they not met or have been separated at some point before the attack, there would not have been NBK. Maybe Dylan would have gone on to headline a domestic murder-suicide article after his partner tried to leave, and Eric would have gone on to be something far more lethal. Or maybe they would have grown up/gotten help/dealt with their issues/had happy, normal lives. A lot of people have said there's no way, but I don't really believe they were evil, so to speak, and I think the possibility would have existed.

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If Eric and Dylan had not committed suicide than they would most likely gone to jail for the rest of their lives which I'm
Personally glad that did not happen. They also couldn't enjoy their fame/infamy there. Eric and Dylan would receive what they wanted: revenge against the school and the community, death and fame all at the same time.

I think he thought life wasnt worth living anymore and believed things would never get better for him but having tons of infamy sounded much better than putting up with a life and world he hated. I hope I explained this well and makes sense.

Every teenager wants to be immortal. Don't they? Really, every person wants to leave their mark on the world in some way. I wonder if he decided that he was never going to be or do anything worth talking about so he would start his own conversation with a gun. When he talked about the Marines and having a reason to be good, well, being a Marine is something notable, something to be proud of. But he gave up because he couldn't believe it would ever happen.

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But I can only wonder if he ever considered that taking anti-depressants and contemplating suicide weren't very "godlike" behaviors.

Eric had a lot of pride. Did it ever bother him that in committing suicide, he might be seen as a victim of an "inferior" human race?

Also, he became famous. People are talking about him. But why did he even care about "inferior" beings talking about him? If he was sending a message about how "godlike" he was... why would he even bother sending ANY kind of message to the "inferior" human race? If he honestly saw the human race as inferior, why bother communicating with them at all?

Gods have to have worshipers, right? What's the point in being superior if no one knows it? He wanted to be noticed, for people to be impressed by him. When he couldn't impress people in a socially acceptable way, it became a need to impress them by horrifying them. I have no idea if I just got my point across or if that was a bunch of randomness.

The other side of the coin being, did he truly view himself as being godlike? Or was that part of the façade? For someone who thought he was so much better than everyone else, he sure as hell lacked self-esteem. "Gee, I'm going to flirt with this hot chick and get her to go out with me, and then spend the whole date whining about how everybody picks on me." Um, no, not very godlike. More of a desperate attempt for validation, for somebody to tell him he was better than them. Or at least equal. The whole thing with everybody being inferior, in my opinion, served 2 purposes: 1 - build up the nerve to go through with the attack, and 2 - justify the attack in his own mind.

And he probably considered anti-depressants, suicidal ideation, being bullied as a result of no one recognizing his greatness. No one understands because they are so far beneath me, if I were with other godlike beings I wouldn't feel this way, I am too superior to be understood by the zombies.

Nothing like delving into the mind of a teenage mass murderer just before bed, am I right? God knows what I will dream of. Nighty night, everybody. I'll reread in the morning and see just how incoherent I got.

Wideawake wrote:

I wrote out this long, well-thought out response and then accidently erased the motherfucker before I could hit post it. Damn it. Anyway.

Shit! Isn't that the WORST thing? I hate when that happens.

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Do you believe that Eric would have gone through with the attack without Dylan?

Had to think about this for a bit, but honestly...no. I think, had they not met or have been separated at some point before the attack, there would not have been NBK. Maybe Dylan would have gone on to headline a domestic murder-suicide article after his partner tried to leave, and Eric would have gone on to be something far more lethal. Or maybe they would have grown up/gotten help/dealt with their issues/had happy, normal lives. A lot of people have said there's no way, but I don't really believe they were evil, so to speak, and I think the possibility would have existed.

I actually (personally) think Eric might've still gone through with NBK without Dylan. He talks about violence as if he thoroughly loves it. I think NBK was more than just revenge & fame to him -it was his personal fantasy and a large part of his identity. I think even though he was full of rage, there was a big part of him that simply loved violence for violence sake. When I read over the details of E/D's behavior during the shooting, I think (well, in my opinion anyway) that the whole thing is a lot like a real life Lord Of The Flies -teenagers with power gone insane.

I laughed out loud at the part where you considered that Dylan might have "gone on to headline a domestic murder-suicide article after his partner tried to leave". Yeah, I've considered that too. I also agree with you that they could have had normal, happy lives.

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Every teenager wants to be immortal. Don't they? Really, every person wants to leave their mark on the world in some way.

When I read this, I thought: The most common way that people leave their mark on the world is by having children. Eric probably thought that was a pointless thing to do because the world was such a shitty place. Some people have suggested that if Eric had found a girlfriend (and had sex) that he might've calmed down a bit. I'm really curious what you think about that? Do you think sex would have helped him?

When I read Eric's journal, he talks a bit about rape and mentions a few sexual songs, but violence really seems to come first in his life. In his stories, there's no sexy girls getting killed, no hot female killers, nothing explicit -just violence and more violence.

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Gods have to have worshipers, right? What's the point in being superior if no one knows it?

If you're talking about a God like the one in The Bible... this kind of God exists (and is superior) whether or not people worship him. Eric and Dylan had a NEED to be worshipped. But, as you've already said, this probably isn't that uncommon for teenagers -it's only the method they attempted to achieve their fame that's unusual.

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The other side of the coin being, did he truly view himself as being godlike? Or was that part of the façade? For someone who thought he was so much better than everyone else, he sure as hell lacked self-esteem. "Gee, I'm going to flirt with this hot chick and get her to go out with me, and then spend the whole date whining about how everybody picks on me." Um, no, not very godlike. More of a desperate attempt for validation, for somebody to tell him he was better than them. Or at least equal. The whole thing with everybody being inferior, in my opinion, served 2 purposes: 1 - build up the nerve to go through with the attack, and 2 - justify the attack in his own mind.

I think you're completely correct. I think Eric needed the "superiority" to justify his attack, and I think he has some deep insecurities which he probably never wrote about because they were painful.

I also think Eric might have been left with no other choice than to assert his superiority. What I mean by this, is that when people called him a faggot, he could've accepted what they were saying -that there was something wrong him. Or he could've chosen to believe that they were inferior to him. If a complete stranger walked up to me and called me a faggot, I'm pretty sure I'd see him as my inferior too. And I'd see anyone who supports him as my inferior.

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And he probably considered anti-depressants, suicidal ideation, being bullied as a result of no one recognizing his greatness. No one understands because they are so far beneath me, if I were with other godlike beings I wouldn't feel this way, I am too superior to be understood by the zombies.

Was it Nietzsche who said that humans define themselves by what they choose to believe. That nothing has meaning until we give it meaning? It's almost like Eric took every "weakness" he had and chose to see it as a "strength". This is actually not a bad way to live.

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Nothing like delving into the mind of a teenage mass murderer just before bed, am I right? God knows what I will dream of. Nighty night, everybody.

Sweet (homicidal) dreams.

Thanks for all the great food for thought.

For the record, I did not have any Columbine-related dreams. At least not that I remember. Now on to the topic at hand...

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I actually (personally) think Eric might've still gone through with NBK without Dylan. He talks about violence as if he thoroughly loves it. I think NBK was more than just revenge & fame to him -it was his personal fantasy and a large part of his identity. I think even though he was full of rage, there was a big part of him that simply loved violence for violence sake. When I read over the details of E/D's behavior during the shooting, I think (well, in my opinion anyway) that the whole thing is a lot like a real life Lord Of The Flies -teenagers with power gone insane.

The Lord of the Flies comparison is good. Definitely a situation of absolute power corrupts absolutely. But I think Eric needed someone, not necessarily Dylan, but someone to be in this with him. He and Dylan had a connection, shared a dark secret, got great joy from planning. I don't think he would have gotten that from planning alone. With the chat logs, the journal entries, I get the sense that Eric really wanted a connection with another human being. I think Dylan satisfied that to some extent, but also that Dylan was lacking in this way because he was still searching for "love". I mentally went off on a tangent with this, like what would happen if Dylan had found his love and abandoned the plan? I toyed with the possibility of Eric killing Dylan, execution-style, feeling that it was the ultimate betrayal. Realistically, I think that being abandoned like this might have amped things up and set Eric on an even more frightening path and costing the lives of way more people. But just without Dylan in general, I don't see him having the nerve.

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Some people have suggested that if Eric had found a girlfriend (and had sex) that he might've calmed down a bit. I'm really curious what you think about that? Do you think sex would have helped him?

When I read Eric's journal, he talks a bit about rape and mentions a few sexual songs, but violence really seems to come first in his life. In his stories, there's no sexy girls getting killed, no hot female killers, nothing explicit -just violence and more violence.

The sex discussion...first of all, I've never been convinced that Eric is really referring to rape so much as hardcore rough sex with a female who is completely submissive to him. Open to interpretation since we don't have the man himself to ask, but he wanted someone to want him. He wanted some girl to want him so much that she would allow him to do whatever he wanted in order to have him. He was pretty immature emotionally so sex may have caused more problems than it solved. But then, a lot of people have sex before they're truly capable of handling that aspect so maybe not. If he found the right partner, he maybe could have channeled his love for violence and his need for control into sex in a way that was therapeutic. BDSM exists for a reason. I mean, there are people who do all kinds of extreme things to get off. But I doubt that most people find a partner for that kind of stuff in high school. I could be wrong though.

Regarding stories...he wanted to kill people and he did. I'm not sure he really looked at them as people (this is a sexy girl I just shot, getting ready to kill this ugly kid, whatever) which may have to do with the treatment he received or maybe it was necessary for them to dehumanize everyone they attacked, purposefully. Like John Savage...we know him, we relate to him, we'll let him go. As far as the "no hot female killers"...again, I feel like it's back to control issues. Eric did not want to compete for his badassery. (And I love using that term.) He wasn't looking for his equal, he was looking for his bitch. <------- And this I don't get. He wanted someone to bow down, but at the same time based on what I know of him, I don't see how this would have satisfied him. The girls he chased after were pretty and blonde and giggly and ditzy in that way that teenage girls are, but when you watch him talk to Brandi later in the EiC video, he looks like he's bored out of his mind. Sure, happy that she's paying him some attention but also distant from the conversation. He considered himself an intelligent, high-minded individual which would imply that he needed someone who can carry out a deeper conversation, but it would have to be in a way that did not challenge his status like a tough girl would.

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If you're talking about a God like the one in The Bible... this kind of God exists (and is superior) whether or not people worship him. Eric and Dylan had a NEED to be worshipped. But, as you've already said, this probably isn't that uncommon for teenagers -it's only the method they attempted to achieve their fame that's unusual.

Without getting into a theological discussion, I would agree that yes, a true God will exist and be superior without worship. But think about, for example, Charles Manson. Someone who saw himself as being the 2nd coming or whatev. He purposefully collected a group of followers and asserted his will over them just because he could. Everything from having every female in his "family" sleep with him to sending out groups of followers on killing missions. He needed to know for sure that he had that kind of pull. And don't we all wish we had that kind of pull? Not that I would send people on killing missions, but just knowing that you could...I think this is what they were after. For whatever reason, they weren't around to see it come about but they knew there would be followers.

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I also think Eric might have been left with no other choice than to assert his superiority. What I mean by this, is that when people called him a faggot, he could've accepted what they were saying -that there was something wrong him. Or he could've chosen to believe that they were inferior to him. If a complete stranger walked up to me and called me a faggot, I'm pretty sure I'd see him as my inferior too. And I'd see anyone who supports him as my inferior.

If enough people say it, you eventually start to believe it. But after awhile, you have to find a way to fight back. Hence deluding himself into thinking he was superior. Yep.

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Was it Nietzsche who said that humans define themselves by what they choose to believe. That nothing has meaning until we give it meaning? It's almost like Eric took every "weakness" he had and chose to see it as a "strength". This is actually not a bad way to live.

I don't know if it was Nietzsche, philosophy is not my strong suit. But it definitely is a matter of perception. Agreed, looking at weaknesses as strengths is not a bad way to live, but it needs to be done in a way that leaves room for self-improvement. Maybe Eric began to believe that the things that were "wrong" with him were irreparable so he said screw it, let's have some fun with it then. Because personally, none of the things that were "wrong" with him are that bad in my opinion. His looks, his size, his awkwardness...all that would have changed. His love of violence, anger issues, disdain for the human race...could be channeled into something else like he did when designing Doom levels. I can't think what else he/other people thought was wrong with him. But it makes me wonder what about him was so "wrong" that it couldn't be fixed.

THE END

(I am becoming the queen of epic-length posts, I think.)

Wideawake wrote:

The sex discussion...first of all, I've never been convinced that Eric is really referring to rape so much as hardcore rough sex with a female who is completely submissive to him.

I completely agree, I never thought that it was about rape at all. In my personal opinion I think that he just wanted to feel like a man and his way of being that was to show how great he could be in bed. That he could just completely ravage someone. He wasn't the "tough guy" or a ladies man (sorry Cullen) by any stretch of the imagination and I think that he just wanted to be wanted, to be needed; to show that "you know what I may come across as small and nice and sweet but when I have you alone I'm an animal"
Of course I can't prove any of this but it's my two cents.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to want I just suppose it's the same as anything, it's how far you take it.

I couldn't see Eric as a bondage kind of dude (wasn't that Dylan's thing?) but I could totally see him as a sex up against the wall type of guy.

Would sex have solved his problems? Absolutely not but it could have released some of his pent up frustrations.

Wideawake wrote:

(I am becoming the queen of epic-length posts, I think.)

I really enjoy your posts, they make think.

Pretty much not seeing himself fitting in school or in life. There was no alternative for him. Sure, he could have just graduated, but I don't think he saw much of a difference between his school life and the working life that everyone goes to. For the criticisms of it, he didn't want anything to change after he was gone from this world. He sort of recognized that this was a personal thing even though he made the mistake to kill innocence rather than just himself.

areyoulistening wrote:

Wideawake wrote:

The sex discussion...first of all, I've never been convinced that Eric is really referring to rape so much as hardcore rough sex with a female who is completely submissive to him.

I completely agree, I never thought that it was about rape at all. In my personal opinion I think that he just wanted to feel like a man and his way of being that was to show how great he could be in bed. That he could just completely ravage someone. He wasn't the "tough guy" or a ladies man (sorry Cullen) by any stretch of the imagination and I think that he just wanted to be wanted, to be needed; to show that "you know what I may come across as small and nice and sweet but when I have you alone I'm an animal"
Of course I can't prove any of this but it's my two cents.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to want I just suppose it's the same as anything, it's how far you take it.

I couldn't see Eric as a bondage kind of dude (wasn't that Dylan's thing?) but I could totally see him as a sex up against the wall type of guy.

Would sex have solved his problems? Absolutely not but it could have released some of his pent up frustrations.

Well, I wasn't necessarily referring to bondage. ;) I was thinking more along the lines of breath play and blood kinks. I don't have a whole lot of experience with BDSM, but it's my understanding that it can be quite brutal. As long as it involves consenting adults, I say have at it. But definitely with you on the "just wanted to feel like a man" thing. And yeah, could have worked off some of that rage.

areyoulistening wrote:

Wideawake wrote:

(I am becoming the queen of epic-length posts, I think.)

I really enjoy your posts, they make think.

Aw, thanks!

philosopher_king wrote:

Pretty much not seeing himself fitting in school or in life. There was no alternative for him. Sure, he could have just graduated, but I don't think he saw much of a difference between his school life and the working life that everyone goes to. For the criticisms of it, he didn't want anything to change after he was gone from this world. He sort of recognized that this was a personal thing even though he made the mistake to kill innocence rather than just himself.

I think you're right on there. I'm not sure there is a whole lot of difference between school and work. Still following someone else's rules, usually someone that you can't stand. Most people hate their bosses, it seems. I love my boss, but that's a whole 'nother thing. Still have the hierarchy, although the structure's slightly different. I do disagree when you say he didn't want anything to change though. I think he wanted the world to change, but figured it really wouldn't. I'm not sure what exactly he wanted, he doesn't seem to know either. But it was definitely a very personal thing. Did he even really share his desire to die with Dylan? Or was it played off as a "we're not getting out alive so I might as well die on my own terms" kind of thing?

I was going over Eric's journal. This might not be relevant, but, the part where he says, "God I want to torch and level everything in this whole fucking area but bombs of that size are hard to make, and plus I would need a fucking fully loaded A-10 to get every store on Wadsworth and all the buildings downtown. Heh, imagine that you fuckers, picture half of Denver on fire just from me and Vodka. Napalm on sides of skyscrapers and car garages blowing up from exploded gas tanks… oh man that would be beautiful." That part always makes me giggle. This kind of Total Destruction reminds me of a 3-year-old -he just wants to make a big mess.

Wideawake,

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But I think Eric needed someone, not necessarily Dylan, but someone to be in this with him. He and Dylan had a connection, shared a dark secret, got great joy from planning. I don't think he would have gotten that from planning alone. With the chat logs, the journal entries, I get the sense that Eric really wanted a connection with another human being.

I think Eric definitely wanted a connection with another human, but I'm not sure if he needed it to enjoy his violence. I think, if Dylan had backed out, Eric might have found a way to enjoy it on his own.

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I mentally went off on a tangent with this, like what would happen if Dylan had found his love and abandoned the plan? I toyed with the possibility of Eric killing Dylan, execution-style, feeling that it was the ultimate betrayal.

Laughed out loud again! Since Eric wanted Brooks dead for refusing to pick him up for school anymore, I DEFINITELY think Eric would have wanted Dylan dead for backing out of something this important.

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The sex discussion...first of all, I've never been convinced that Eric is really referring to rape so much as hardcore rough sex with a female who is completely submissive to him.

I considered rape because of this part, "I love flesh … the smooth legs, the large breasts, the innocent flawless body, the eyes, the hair, jet black, blond, white, brown, ahhh I just want to fuck! Call it teenager hormones or call it a crazy fucking racist rapist."

Also, since rape is a fairly common thing for teenage males to think about occasionally, I assumed that Eric thought about it from time to time.

But he also writes, "where I just pick her up, take her to my room, tear off her shirt and pants and just eat her out and fuck her hard", which sounds more consensual. So who knows?

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He was pretty immature emotionally so sex may have caused more problems than it solved. But then, a lot of people have sex before they're truly capable of handling that aspect so maybe not. If he found the right partner, he maybe could have channeled his love for violence and his need for control into sex in a way that was therapeutic. BDSM exists for a reason. I mean, there are people who do all kinds of extreme things to get off. But I doubt that most people find a partner for that kind of stuff in high school.

I like thinking about what kind of partner would've appealed to Eric and how he would've handled the relationship. He was obviously a volatile guy, so any relationship could've turned very ugly. Since I think most guys are open to sexual experimentation, I think Eric would've been open to giving BDSM a go. Overall though, I (personally) think sex would've made things worse. Mind you, I'm not sure how things could get much worse than mass murder...

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Regarding stories...he wanted to kill people and he did. I'm not sure he really looked at them as people (this is a sexy girl I just shot, getting ready to kill this ugly kid, whatever) which may have to do with the treatment he received or maybe it was necessary for them to dehumanize everyone they attacked, purposefully. As far as the "no hot female killers"...again, I feel like it's back to control issues. Eric did not want to compete for his badassery.

I was thinking about the movie he loved so much -Natural Born Killers. Personally, I dislike this movie and I can't see it's appeal, but looking at the YouTube comments on this movie, quite a few guys think Mallory is "hot" and I considered Eric might have felt that way too. I know that she's submissive to Mickey, but she's still a seriously violent individual. This is the kind of "hot female killer" I was thinking of. I read that E/D also watched Pulp Fiction and The Doom Generation, which both have sexy, violent females in them. Eric also named his shotgun after "Arlene", the female killer in the Doom novels.

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And this I don't get. He wanted someone to bow down, but at the same time based on what I know of him, I don't see how this would have satisfied him.

I seriously doubt the kind of girls he chased would have satisfied him and probably would have ended up "betraying" (in his mind) him. I really can't imagine what kind of girl would've been a good match for Eric.

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He needed to know for sure that he had that kind of pull. And don't we all wish we had that kind of pull?

Good point. All humans are probably born with "need for power" hormones. Maybe some people get their power from being part of a larger group (community), but Eric's interests made this impossible? Who knows. Thinking about Charles Manson makes me also wonder if Eric admired Hilter so much not because he really cared about Nazism and it's beliefs, but because he was fascinated with the amount of power Hitler had.

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Because personally, none of the things that were "wrong" with him are that bad in my opinion.

Reading this, I also consider whether part of the problem was that hobbies which Eric saw as "strengths" might have been perceived as "weaknesses" in his community. And this might have been frustrating for him. I'll try to explain that better... Eric played a lot of computer games. He probably thought that computers (and game design) were intelligent hobbies, but his community probably considered gaming an immature hobby (video games are for kids... grow up and do something important). He may have been bitter than not only couldn't he see eye-to-eye with his community about what was important in life, but that they actually saw his way of life as "immature/weak". He writes, "You people could have shown more respect, treated me better, asked for my knowledge or guidance more, treated me more like a senior".

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(I am becoming the queen of epic-length posts, I think.)

Like areyoulistening said, you're posts are great food for thought!

I don't have much time at the moment, but I do intend to elaborate much more later.

First, I'm not sure that Eric started out suicidal while carrying out NBK. Didn't he say he wanted to go out in a hail of gunfire by the cops? In his mind, I can see him viewing that as a way of going out with "glory." It's possible that during the massacre, when he realized his "plan" wasn't coming to fruition like he intended (the bombs, etc.), that's when the realization of suicide being a real possibility had permeated itself in his mind.

Oh, I think he knew it was AN option going into it, but I don't think he had committed himself to suicide as THE END for himself until partially through the massacre. Hell, for all we know, there could have been some other instigator that made him pull the trigger on himself. Maybe law enforcement or someone DID try to enter the library or confront them - and instead of surrendering, he was all like "Aw, hell naw! You fuckers ain't taking me alive!" We all know there is SO much information that is not known and it's very possible that something went down cementing their decision to commit suicide at that moment, in the library.

As far as Eric and love/sex....well, that will have to wait until I have more time later tonight. Basically, I think Eric might have purposely or even sub-consciously picked out females that were the anti-thesis of what he seemed to have wanted. You know how psychologists theorize that people with low self-esteem seem to sub-consciously pick out people that are emotionally unavailable? As in, they are creating a self-fullfilling prophecy - they believe themselves to be unlovable, etc., SO they surround themselves with someone(s) who model those exact behaviors unto them. Someone who is abusive in some form, unable to commit, unable to show loving actions, etc. It just reaffirms what they already believe themself to be. Of course, this is done subconsciously as many of us would never actively WANT someone to treat us that way.

Another reason is that maybe Eric purposely wanted someone to claim as "his" - give him the boyfriend-type attention, yet he would still be able to always keep himself at an arms-length emotionally. If he was truly dead-set (no pun intended!) on NBK or some other form of annihilation, wouldn't it be easier to leave someone behind that he thought as "beneath him" or his unequal? I'm not sure he really WANTED to open himself up to having an equal relationship with a female. That in turn, relates to sex. I don't think he wanted to have an equal footing sexually with a female either. Hence, the bravado of "overpowering", etc. in his journals.

Ok, sorry for the run-ons and mispellings. I need to go back outside and enjoy the nice evening with my husband and son - it's gorgeous in Seattle for once! I will elaborate more later - probably even changing my mind on some things by then, lol.

I apologize for how long this is going to be. And I still don't feel I am adequately explaining what I want to explain. I am exhausted, so, apologies beforehand for that, as well.




Regarding this infamous journal entry of Eric's:

I don't even necessarily think that he was implying that he wanted the female to be submissive to him; I believe that he just wanted them to be in awe of him and his performance. It is very hormonal, obviously. He just really wanted to be involved with a female. It has nothing to do with forced sex/rape in any capacity, in my opinion.

When I see some of the things people have posted elsewhere about this entry over the last decade (examples: on the old board, tumblr, other boards, comment sections on articles about it, etc.) it just goes to show that people will half read, assume, and listen to other people's nonsensical sensationalism without looking into it further themselves and applying any sort of critical thinking whatsoever.

This all comes from them not realizing (because they don't fully read) that the second half of that entry goes into a stream of consciousness rant about ripping open a freshman to show that he was "in charge". Two COMPLETELY different subjects. This all started because he was talking about NIN's "Closer" lyrics, and then:

"oh... thats something else... that one NIN video I saw, broken or closer or something, the where the guy is kidnapped and tortured like hell... actual hell. I want to do that too. I want to tear a throat out with my own teeth like a pop can. I want to gut someone with my hand, to tear a head off and rip out the heart and lungs from the neck, to stab someone in the gut, shove it up to the heart, and yank the fucking blade out of their rib cage!..."

HOW is it possible for anyone to NOT SEE that those are TWO ENTIRELY different subjects? There are SO many people who still do not grasp that, and it is impossibly perplexing to me.

Thinking about the sexual lyrics in "Closer" made him think of "Happiness in Slavery", another NIN song, and then that made him think of the video for said song, and he CLEARLY says "oh, THAT'S SOMETHING ELSE.....". THAT is one of the reasons SO many people BELIEVE that this entry is about rape and that he is sexually sadistic. It is NOT. I have seen people say that he "discusses tearing a woman's throat open and being a crazy racist rapist...". Good LORD does that drive me insane.

He says "I just want to fuck! call it teenage hormones or call it a crazy fuckin racist rapist"

The stupid "crazy racist rapist" is just a ridiculous play on words. That illustrates how inexperienced and naive he was about sexuality, honestly. That, and he said somewhere (one of his school papers, I believe) that he made up his own words and "language" and said silly things often.

Otherwise, what I am reading in that entry are overall typical teenage hormones. He was SEVENTEEN when he wrote that. He had never had sex. It is just tremendous hormonal, almost desperate ranting. He's just writing about primal emotions. He's not really talking about the females in a horrific way. He's naming females he finds attractive, and explaining why in some cases, and then naming some others he finds attractive and explaining that he wants to fuck them. "I want to be surrounded by the flesh of a woman"....uhhh, he just wants to be all consumed in the act. Something like: "I want to tear that pussy apart" is UTTERLY degrading, and he DIDN'T say ANYTHING like that. He NEVER calls them "bitches" or "whores" or "sluts". Notice that? He talks about performing oral sex on them. Uh, I know a lot of men love doing that for multiple reasons, but saying something like that is not "bad" or "sadistic", it is actually subtly submissive, when you really think about it. I mean, the man is "doing the work" when that happens, but the female is "in charge". He wanted to be passionate and somewhat aggressive, but he really just wanted to have sex and be connected to a female.

It is very easy to assume that because this kid ended up descending and regressing into obsessive, homicidal, hateful, violent thoughts, and did actually kill people later on, that he'd immediately be someone who was sexually violent, as well. But I sincerely do not believe this about him at all. I honestly believe that when many people read that journal entry, they are doing so with the different comments that journalists have made somewhere in the back of their mind, whether they realize it or want to, or not, and they are assuming that because he ended up being violent, that he was also sexually violent. Violence is violence, but just because someone is fixated on one type of violence, it does not automatically mean that they'd be interested in or capable of another.

I sincerely do not see him being into hurting a female who was being intimate with him. I see him being smoldering-ly passionate, as he was extremely passionate in general, but not into BDSM/S&M. Not at all. I, too, cannot prove this, but I must say that I honestly do not see it. It was ONE hormonal journal entry from a kid who had typical teenage issues, as well as not so typical issues, and not to mention, he was on psychotropic drugs against his will, and he was erratically cycling on and off of them, making the side effects even more amplified.

He didn't say too much else regarding females in an utterly negative or objectifying way, aside from the alleged partial basement tapes transcript, where he supposedly said that he'd tell a woman something like "bitch, where is my dinner/make my dinner" or something, and one of his entries where he said that women just had to accept that males are the ones that are supposed to be out working and doing dangerous things. Those things are not at all nice, but I think they came from a general, all consuming hatred he'd enveloped himself in at that point. Instead of dwelling in how hurt and rejected he felt, and expounding upon it, he'd briefly point it out and then focus on hating something. The example I have in mind is once again, in the alleged partial basement tapes transcript, he names off girls who rejected him, and says something to the effect of "Thanks a lot for never calling me. Made me feel really good!". <----THAT is what he REALLY felt, but that is not "manly". That is "weak". That makes him "out of CONTROL". So, instead, he descends into " Women are beneath men. Just accept it". "What would I tell a woman? 'Bitch, get my dinner'".

That is also how he dealt with suicide. He wanted to do it, for many reasons, but instead of REALLY looking into what he hated about himself, and what he allowed others' hatred and intolerance toward him to make him hate about himself, he quickly discusses it:

(all loosely quoted, obviously, aside from the last line)

"Everyone makes fun of me. No one invites me anywhere. Girls don't call me. I believe I'm ugly, and I am so consumed by this that I MAKE FUN OF PEOPLE WHO REMIND ME OF MYSELF JUST SO I CAN FIND ANOTHER WAY TO MAKE FUN OF MYSELF. 'Don't let the weird looking Eric kid come along. Ohh fucking noo'."

He addresses it, but dwelling on it is "WEAK". It is out of his "control". So, he focuses blame and hate on everyone else, and decides that if he's going to die, he's taking others with him. It is NOT just because he doesn't want to go to jail. I don't believe that for a second. If he TRULY was focused on infamy, he'd stay alive to revel in it. He wanted to die, just as much as Dylan did. What Dylan was open about, Eric hid, and what Eric was open about, Dylan hid. I do sincerely believe that his views on human behavior, and the state of the world were entirely sincere, and it was immensely frustrating for him. It made him feel beyond hopeless and helpless. But, it was primarily self hate. The way he savagely ripped the top of his own skull off irrefutably illustrates this, in my opinion.

Eric's mother said (something to the effect) that he was impossible to "crack", essentially. It was hard for him to open up to people, and a lot of it was a self defense mechanism. Every single time he got close to people, they were "taken away" from him because of the constant uprooting due to his father's profession. And yes, other people can deal with moving and losing friends all the time. He couldn't, though. Some people cannot, some can.

He did not want to truly discuss what he felt about himself; what hurt him. It seems that all of these experiences with loss, and his general need for control made it this way. He utterly despised himself, but was also smart enough to know that many people who made him feel bad about who and how he was were ridiculously shallow and ignorant. So, in time, he projected it onto them....but he never found a way to love and accept himself. He continued to hate himself while he hated everyone else. If he'd loved and accepted himself, he would want to live, grow, and accomplish things that would have proved how moronic and pathetic those who did not accept him actually were. He'd WANT to be alive to experience that satisfaction. (The same goes for the "infamy" of what he and Dylan did, of "finally getting the respect we deserve"....anyone who really believed they were that worthy of such things would make damn sure they were alive to witness the aftermath, and give jailhouse interviews bragging about why he did what he did.)

I honestly believe that he hated himself and wanted to end his life just as much as Dylan. He was suicidal for a very long time. When he saw a potential opportunity to try and sort this out with a psychological professional, he very candidly admitted almost everything. He said he was homicidal, suicidal, lonely, isolated, obsessive, paranoid, angry, sad, confused, and cried constantly. All they did was put him on drugs that are actually hallucinogens, and they made everything even worse, particularly when he'd stop and start them erratically.

WOW! All I can say is incredible and very well thought out post!! It really made me think about things in a different way and consider things I've never thought of before. But where did you find Kathy discussing that part about Eric.

CatherineM813 wrote:

WOW! All I can say is incredible and very well thought out post!! It really made me think about things in a different way and consider things I've never thought of before. But where did you find Kathy discussing that part about Eric.

Thank you very much.

The part you're asking about comes from something -- I BELIEVE (but I am not certain) the 11k-- where Kathy's hairdresser discusses what Kathy told her about Eric. If I could find it right this second, I would post it, but I don't know where it is right now. If someone else can before I do, I would greatly appreciate it.

Your very welcome.

I remember reading that part about Kathy. It can be found in different places but one of the articles I found it in said Harris' mother, Kathy, told her hairdresser "about Eric's disappointment that he could not find a date for the prom and Kathy related that she felt sorry for Eric." Sometimes being a teenager really sucks, "Harris told his mother. His wallets contained names and phone numbers of girls he hadn't talked to for months, but Harris was not without romantic interests.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The discussion between Kathy and hairdresser is towards the bottom.

In another article or documents ( I don't remember which one at the moment) Kathy's hairdresser remembers Eric and Kevin from when they were a few years younger. She said that she could barely get a word out of Eric. Whereas Kevin was the exact opposite and real outgoing. I'll try to find that as well.
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Quote :

Otherwise, what I am reading in that entry are overall typical teenage hormones. He was SEVENTEEN when he wrote that. He had never had sex. It is just tremendous hormonal, almost desperate ranting. He's just writing about primal emotions. He's not really talking about the females in a horrific way.

Just to clarify what I meant, I never said that Eric HATED women or despised them any more or less than he despised everyone. I was just suggesting that since rape is a fairly common thing for men to think about from time to time, that Eric might have had some rape thoughts too, among many other consensual fantasies.

If Eric ever did think about rape, it doesn't mean that he hated all women or that he would hurt his real life female partner. I know you see his journal entry as a "play on words", but even if it's taken literally, Eric's vision of rape isn't focusing on how good it feels to hurt a woman -he's not a sexual sadist- his focus is on being animalistic and taking what he thinks his female peers would never give him.

In real life though, he seemed pretty respectful towards the women he knew.

During the shooting, he never singled out females because of their gender, and he didn't yell out anything like, "Show us your tits". If he did ever have the occasional rape fantasy, that wouldn't make him a sexual sadist as much as just a normal teenage boy.

This is just my OPINION though.

CatherineM813 wrote:

Your very welcome.

I remember reading that part about Kathy. It can be found in different places but one of the articles I found it in said Harris' mother, Kathy, told her hairdresser "about Eric's disappointment that he could not find a date for the prom and Kathy related that she felt sorry for Eric." Sometimes being a teenager really sucks, "Harris told his mother. His wallets contained names and phone numbers of girls he hadn't talked to for months, but Harris was not without romantic interests.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The discussion between Kathy and hairdresser is towards the bottom.

In another article or documents ( I don't remember which one at the moment) Kathy's hairdresser remembers Eric and Kevin from when they were a few years younger. She said that she could barely get a word out of Eric. Whereas Kevin was the exact opposite and real outgoing. I'll try to find that as well.
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It is definitely the second one you've posted. I am remembering it as some sort of police statement-type document.

RaiseTheFist wrote:

Quote :

Otherwise, what I am reading in that entry are overall typical teenage hormones. He was SEVENTEEN when he wrote that. He had never had sex. It is just tremendous hormonal, almost desperate ranting. He's just writing about primal emotions. He's not really talking about the females in a horrific way.

Just to clarify what I meant, I never said that Eric HATED women or despised them any more or less than he despised everyone. I was just suggesting that since rape is a fairly common thing for men to think about from time to time, that Eric might have had some rape thoughts too, among many other consensual fantasies.

If Eric ever did think about rape, it doesn't mean that he hated all women or that he would hurt his real life female partner. I know you see his journal entry as a "play on words", but even if it's taken literally, Eric's vision of rape isn't focusing on how good it feels to hurt a woman -he's not a sexual sadist- his focus is on being animalistic and taking what he thinks his female peers would never give him.

In real life though, he seemed pretty respectful towards the women he knew.

During the shooting, he never singled out females because of their gender, and he didn't yell out anything like, "Show us your tits". If he did ever have the occasional rape fantasy, that wouldn't make him a sexual sadist as much as just a normal teenage boy.

This is just my OPINION though.

No one here has really said, without a doubt, that he was a sexual sadist. However, I have seen articles where idiots half-skimming the entry intermingle the two portions of the entry, and try to enforce in the reader's mind that he was clearly violent in every way, and since then, I have seen multiple people buy this hook, line, and sinker. Those who think Eric and Dylan were satan himself, and hardcore "fans" of the two.

Again, anything you've said here does not come across in that way at all!! No one has said anything like this here, honestly. Are some of the people who posted things like this elsewhere on here? I have no idea.

The whole entry, to me, just sounds like desperate, intense over-arousal without an outlet. Very typical of a kid his age. It sounds to me like he just wants to release it; he wants to be passionate and animalistic (he even uses that word).

Of course, the "crazy racist rapist" may not seem like a play on words to others, but he says nothing else, in my opinion, that sounds like rape or forced sex.

Also, I forgot to add this in my obnoxiously long post above:

The part about "Who can I trick into my room first...", in my opinion, is self deprecation; that he is so unworthy in his own mind (despite the fact that he tries to project a polar opposite persona elsewhere), the only way anyone would want to have sex with him in an uninhibited way like he is fantasizing about, or any way at all, would be through "tricking" them. I think he feels he is not desirable just as he is (was). I also see it as him fantasizing about being in "control" of the fact that he wouldn't be able to just "pull" any girl he wanted at his whim. I don't see this as rape, because he'd talk in more graphic detail about tearing them apart, like he did when he got off course in that very entry talking about killing a freshman.

He wrote, in very vivid detail, fantasizing about doing horrifying things in Brooks' family's house. Tying them up, "taking their time", torturing them, pissing on them......to me, if he wanted to brutalize a female, he'd get into detail about how horrified she'd be, and how he'd tie her down and get himself off; just using her body to relieve his "needs".....

Quote :

No one here has really said, without a doubt, that he was a sexual sadist. However, I have seen articles where idiots half-skimming the entry intermingle the two portions of the entry, and try to enforce in the reader's mind that he was clearly violent in every way, and since then, I have seen multiple people buy this hook, line, and sinker. Those who think Eric and Dylan were satan himself, and hardcore "fans" of the two.

Again, anything you've said here does not come across in that way at all!!

OK! Big thank you for clearing that up. Since it's so fucking hard to know exactly what people meant over the internet, your extra clarification helps a lot.

Quote :

Of course, the "crazy racist rapist" may not seem like a play on words to others, but he says nothing else, in my opinion, that sounds like rape or forced sex.

Before we all got talking about the rape/not rape aspect, I was actually pondering on my perception that there's very little sex at all in Eric's writings. He seems, to me, to be in love with violence first and foremost.

There have been so many great posts that I can't even begin to address everything I want. Which is great, because I love having intelligent people to discuss Columbine with. I'm totally thrilled about. If I miss something important, somebody point it out to me, okay?

RaiseTheFist wrote:

Maybe some people get their power from being part of a larger group (community), but Eric's interests made this impossible? Who knows. Thinking about Charles Manson makes me also wonder if Eric admired Hilter so much not because he really cared about Nazism and it's beliefs, but because he was fascinated with the amount of power Hitler had.

This makes me think of the quote from the Basement Tapes where Dylan says he's Jewish and Eric allegedly gives him a dirty look or something. I can't imagine Eric giving a shit about this. From what I can tell, he wasn't some kind of neo-Nazi white supremacist. He hated everybody. The entire human race. So yeah, I think it was the power thing with Hitler rather than his beliefs. And seriously, can you be close friends with someone for 4+ years and not realize that they are Jewish? Doesn't this come up at some point?

samanthab20 wrote:

First, I'm not sure that Eric started out suicidal while carrying out NBK. Didn't he say he wanted to go out in a hail of gunfire by the cops? In his mind, I can see him viewing that as a way of going out with "glory." It's possible that during the massacre, when he realized his "plan" wasn't coming to fruition like he intended (the bombs, etc.), that's when the realization of suicide being a real possibility had permeated itself in his mind.

Isn't being killed by cops another form of suicide? I'm not sure if there is a technical term for it, but in the hospital we call it "death by cop" and it is a hell of a lot more common than you would think. Threaten to or shoot at cops in order to provoke them into shooting you, or threaten/shoot at innocents to provoke cops. Another common thing I've heard is people going for the officer's gun when the officer attempts to cuff them. And oddly enough, as I'm sitting here typing this, I realized that most of the patients I'm thinking of that attempted "death by cop" are young males (i.e. 15-30). Huh.

tsfa47090 wrote:

I don't even necessarily think that he was implying that he wanted the female to be submissive to him; I believe that he just wanted them to be in awe of him and his performance. It is very hormonal, obviously. He just really wanted to be involved with a female. It has nothing to do with forced sex/rape in any capacity, in my opinion.

When I see some of the things people have posted elsewhere about this entry over the last decade (examples: on the old board, tumblr, other boards, comment sections on articles about it, etc.) it just goes to show that people will half read, assume, and listen to other people's nonsensical sensationalism without looking into it further themselves and applying any sort of critical thinking whatsoever.

This all comes from them not realizing (because they don't fully read) that the second half of that entry goes into a stream of consciousness rant about ripping open a freshman to show that he was "in charge". Two COMPLETELY different subjects.

Have also seen this multiple times so I know exactly what you mean. I thought it was clear the first time I read it that he was talking about something completely different. And kind of expanding on that into his treatment of women to go along with what you were saying, by all accounts Eric was very respectful of women and treated them well. And pretty much every male I know occasionally makes comments about a woman's place being in the kitchen or some shit like that, meant and taken in a joking manner. Was that how Eric meant it? Who knows, since we can't see the tape? But nothing I have seen/read indicates to me that he objectified or looked down on women any more or less than any other teenage boy.

tfsa47090 wrote:

He did not want to truly discuss what he felt about himself; what hurt him. It seems that all of these experiences with loss, and his general need for control made it this way. He utterly despised himself, but was also smart enough to know that many people who made him feel bad about who and how he was were ridiculously shallow and ignorant. So, in time, he projected it onto them....but he never found a way to love and accept himself. He continued to hate himself while he hated everyone else. If he'd loved and accepted himself, he would want to live, grow, and accomplish things that would have proved how moronic and pathetic those who did not accept him actually were. He'd WANT to be alive to experience that satisfaction. (The same goes for the "infamy" of what he and Dylan did, of "finally getting the respect we deserve"....anyone who really believed they were that worthy of such things would make damn sure they were alive to witness the aftermath, and give jailhouse interviews bragging about why he did what he did.)

This. You took this further than I did and came up with a great theory, and worded it fantastically. Totally agree.

tfsa47090 wrote:

"Who can I trick into my room first..."

Strange that you see it as self-deprecation because I picture him saying it with a mischievous smirk.

RaiseTheFist wrote:

Before we all got talking about the rape/not rape aspect, I was actually pondering on my perception that there's very little sex at all in Eric's writings. He seems, to me, to be in love with violence first and foremost.

We got sidetracked. Obviously. Back on topic now. Um, to start with, I'm not sure that we can assume that this is all of Eric's writings so who knows what else he talks about? But since this is what we have to work with, based on it...I'm not sure. You know, I read his stuff and I don't see an extraordinary amount of violence. I've never been a teenage boy so I can't say for sure, maybe I should be worried about the boys I was friends with, I think boys/men are naturally violent. Does society encourage them to suppress it? Yeah, to some extent. But I've never met a little boy who doesn't cackle delightedly when something blows up, or an adolescent male who thought Faces of Death was boring. Was Eric MORE this way? I can't decide. Maybe just more open about it, at least in his journal and among his close friends.

One closing note...

WTF is with the way women tell their hairdressers everything? The chick who does my hair is great and all, but I would never tell her stuff beyond small talk. It sounds like Kathy Harris really opened up to her. I find this weird.

samanthab20,

Quote :

Another reason is that maybe Eric purposely wanted someone to claim as "his" - give him the boyfriend-type attention, yet he would still be able to always keep himself at an arms-length emotionally. If he was truly dead-set (no pun intended!) on NBK or some other form of annihilation, wouldn't it be easier to leave someone behind that he thought as "beneath him" or his unequal

I didn't get a chance to address this... I agree that Eric might have been concerned about commitment to a serious relationship -since he was already committed to violence- and might've simply wanted a sexual partner, not an equal.

Eric hated himself, and I believe that no matter how much bravado he portrayed in his writings, he was a seriously depressed self conscious person who just wanted to feel important and needed (his sex fantasy)

I think that he was a prideful individual who saw his flaws as weakness that he hated because he wasn't as tall or sporty as his brother was. As much as he made fun of that lifestyle, I think given half the chance he'd love to have had it. Just because of how much respect they received and the women they got, both things Eric never really had.

I think Eric felt miserable. He's fixated on his problems. There was nothing strong enough to distract him from his anger and frustration.

not sure Eric was suicidal.. just the option that played out. Shootout suicide via cops or escaping and hijacking a plane or some other fantasy was preferred, but he certainly would take suicide over incarceration that's for sure.

Eric=focused on destruction.. end game was just part of the deal.

Dylan=focused on ending his life.. mass murder was just part of the deal.

I think he was suicidal to some extent. He just didn't see the world as worth living in. He didn't want to fade away, he wanted to do what he always wanted to do. Two birds with one stone I guess.

Fatheroftwo is right.

Eric was not suicidal. But he was willing to die for a big national event, much like Timothy McVeigh was.

It was documented while Eric was in the diversion program that he stated he would get suicidal here and there, mostly out of anger. It's also documented in the paperwork his parents filled out that he had discussed having suicidal thoughts (in addition to his anger and mood swings) with his therapist then was prescribed medication. You can find this info here, for anyone who doesn't feel like digging through the 11k:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

So even though Eric may not have been suicidal on the same level or for the same reasons Dylan was, it's been documented that he did express having suicidal feelings.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

not sure Eric was suicidal..  just the option that played out.  Shootout suicide via cops or escaping and hijacking a plane or some other fantasy was preferred, but he certainly would take suicide over incarceration that's for sure.

Eric=focused on destruction.. end game was just part of the deal.

Dylan=focused on ending his life..  mass murder was just part of the deal.

Yeah but for someone who felt that mass murder "was just part of the deal", he sure did seem to enjoy it a lot. He was the one whooping and hollering during the shooting, talking to the victims and having the time of his life, while Eric was pretty quiet. Not to mention Dylan wrote about wanting to kill people before he even decided on doing it with Eric.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] exactly. He enjoyed it alot cuz he finally had the obligation to die.

Sad situation for everyone. I think Dylan and Eric wanted to be loved by their peers in school, I just don't understand why didn't give them a chance.

shades wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] exactly. He enjoyed it alot cuz he finally had the obligation to die.

I still think they wanted to kill people AND die themselves equally. In Dylan's case, I really don't think someone who is suicidal will go for mass murder just as an excuse to die. Not unless he already liked the idea of murder (which can be seen in Dylan's earlier journal entries).

As for Eric, he wouldn't have gone through with the revenge and destruction he craved unless he also wanted to die. It wouldn't have been worth it to him no matter how badly he wanted revenge, if he liked himself and had things to look forward to he wouldn't have done it.

Kiwik wrote:

It was documented while Eric was in the diversion program that he stated he would get suicidal here and there, mostly out of anger. It's also documented in the paperwork his parents filled out that he had discussed having suicidal thoughts (in addition to his anger and mood swings) with his therapist then was prescribed medication. You can find this info here, for anyone who doesn't feel like digging through the 11k:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

So even though Eric may not have been suicidal on the same level or for the same reasons Dylan was, it's been documented that he did express having suicidal feelings.

It seems that Eric was more sincere about his problems (although he later regretted it). Dylan was hiding, I guess he wanted to look "normal". Well, Dylan almost didn't trust anyone with his secrets.

bradt93 wrote:

Sad situation for everyone. I think Dylan and Eric wanted to be loved by their peers in school, I just don't understand why didn't give them a chance.

Why do you think that no one loved them? But what about their friends who did not turn away from them, even after what they did? The problem is that they wanted much more...

Ok. I'm taking my med's in order to answer this. (And, no they don't help) WHY, BRAD are they perpetual victims to YOU? You say these sympathetic, apologist platitudes and then duck out with no answer. WHY? They were no more bullied than an average teen in NINETEEN NINETY NINE. Maybe less. Peopled luuuuurved them, I'm sure. People were their FRIENDS. They had it far better than most, despite their VICTIM MENTALITY! Hell, I never got to throw a pipe bomb in a field, so they had it better than me.

I'm not required to be nice to ANYONE, from childhood until now. I'm not required to hahash stoooopid bullshit, ad nauseum. Why? Because I have an unbreakable backbone and I'm a very strong personality.
I sympathize with those who are truly bullied. These "idols"'you laude are NOT who I sympathize with.
And I don't live in the past.

Well, most women wouldn't give them a chance. One girl insulted Eric in front of the whole classroom, now was that right? I don't think so, she could've told him somewhere else. Little stuff like that builds up inside of you and turns into anger.

Who.Gives.Two.Shits about a SECADE ago! You are cherry picking and then baiting us with that logic. I see my previous advice fell upon deaf ears when I encouraged you to research, beginning to end. Not the, oh poor guy can't get any angle noe the, oh poor guy got looked at cross eyed angles.

Hey, if you don't like what I post, then don't respond to them, it's as simple as that.

It's not about not liking what you post [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. You just keep going in circles with your questions and your points.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] That's the rallying cry of neonates who need a bottle of milk, worldwide. I HAVE been nice and FAR more patient with your incessant whining than most. My feeeeeeeling is you are here to bait people into such inane conundrums as Whyyyyyy didn't girls liiiiiike them? Maybe they emanated crazy like waves on hot pavement. Maybe they stunk to high heavens. Who knows, who cares. In the end, it mattered not.

No, "I don't like what you post". It's the logic of a preschooler (those monsters I don't like, by the way). You are dealing with successful, intelligent people here, who, no matter their background, hold their head up high and go on with LIFE. And at 28? Get to living in the here and now.

Further, I will counter your every inane, weak argument where possible. YOU don't tell ME where to respond. Got that? Tattoo it in your lower back as a reminder.

And, that, brad, is game, set, match. There's no emojis for what I intend for you. Except a baby bottle, a middle finger and a laugh.

I guess you don't understand what it's like to be bullied and it scars you for life.