Why Eric was NOT a sadist

As most Columbiners may know a sadist is someone who harbours pleasure from seeing the pain or humiliation of others (to put it in the most simplest terms). It is believed that, out of the two boys, Eric was the most narcissistic, the most anti-social, the most sadistic and overall just the general psychopath. Multiple articles say that he had sadistic traits but if you think he was a proper sadist, consider these two instances:

- In one of his confession videos (I didn't see the actual video, I read the transcript) he "wishes that he was a sociopath so that he would feel no remorse, but he does". A typical sadist obviously doesn't feel remorse (correct me though aha)

and

- Everyone knows that at one point during the shooting, one of Eric's shotgun blasts recoiled and punched his nose making him messily bleed all over his face. It was speculated that he was consequently brought back into reality and felt bad for the pain his victims endured or are enduring.

I think most of us know by now that Eric's journal was a performance. Eric was your typical outcast, and is far away from any kind sadist/psychopath/sociopath. There are numerous situations where he expresses traits opposite of said labels.

At this point, ranting about how Eric was not a psycho or a sadist is just white noise, posts upon posts, threads upon threads rehashing the same thing over and over, presenting the same arguments again and again.
It would be refreshing to hear someone defend the Cullen narative.

TheSpiral wrote:

At this point, ranting about how Eric was not a psycho or a sadist is just white noise, posts upon posts, threads upon threads rehashing the same thing over and over, presenting the same arguments again and again.
It would be refreshing to hear someone defend the Cullen narative.

I don't think anyone on this forum would non-ironically defend the idea of Eric being an alleged manipulative mastermind psycho or Dylan the poor emo boy story. Cullen's narrative can be categorized as pure fiction, therefore any attempt to reason his claims would be highly irrational.

Regarding his broken nose, I very much doubt that injury brought him to reality and made him feel remorse. He was no doubt disoriented but the amount of adrenaline he probably had would have masked the pain. Neither Eric nor Dylan really lived in "reality", they created their own.

The reason this same issue keeps getting brought up is simple. People are just in different stages of their Columbine research. I consider myself an old timer, since I have been interested in Columbine almost from the beginning. Many of us have delved deep into Columbine lore and have a somewhat better understanding of how things got twisted and why people would want to lie about it in the first place.

I like that fact that people will have this great epiphany, a 1000 watt light bulb moment,  when they finally realize that Columbine is about more then just an evil, sociopath/psychopath(Eric) who tricked a depressed, suicidal kid(Dylan) to help him commit murder.

In my opinion the more people who are still digging for the truth and asking questions the better. It increases the likely hood we will get the truth one day, or as close to it as we can.

1Mare1 wrote:

TheSpiral wrote:

At this point, ranting about how Eric was not a psycho or a sadist is just white noise, posts upon posts, threads upon threads rehashing the same thing over and over, presenting the same arguments again and again.
It would be refreshing to hear someone defend the Cullen narative.

I don't think anyone on this forum would non-ironically defend the idea of Eric being an alleged manipulative mastermind psycho or Dylan the poor emo boy story. Cullen's narrative can be categorized as pure fiction, therefore any attempt to reason his claims would be highly irrational.

You apparently have not met lasttrain yet.

He is a staunch proponent of that theory and Cullen in general

I always like when new people come here. They may bring some of the same ideas but from those same ideas they bring new opinions and new ideas.

> In one of his confession videos (I didn't see the actual video, I read the transcript) he "wishes that he was a sociopath so that he would feel no remorse, but he does". A typical sadist obviously doesn't feel remorse (correct me though aha)

Then maybe the dumb little prick shouldn't have done it. Remorse my ass. I'm not even going to bother to mention Dwayne Fuselier's assessment of that one. If Eric's performing in his journal (slightly debatable) then he was SURE AS HELL performing when he said that. "Dear Lord forgive me for this crime I'm about to commit." Yeah God bless America huh?

> Everyone knows that at one point during the shooting, one of Eric's shotgun blasts recoiled and punched his nose making him messily bleed all over his face. It was speculated that he was consequently brought back into reality and felt bad for the pain his victims endured or are enduring.[/quote]

Oh? What basis is there for this "speculation"? You mean "people who like Eric and Dylan a little too much would want it to be true, so it is?"

Dave Cullen's book has its problems but if Columbiners are going to somehow undermine the guy's success, they shouldn't be making stuff up--that's the pot calling the kettle black.

We also can't take what Eric said in the basement tapes at face value. As someone else mentioned, he was writing and performing for an audience in a way. He knew his words and actions would be analyzed, so much of what he did was deliberate.

At the same time, I don't believe Eric was pure evil. I think he and Dylan had severe mental and emotional issues (understatement, I know)

Lizpuff wrote:

You apparently have not met lasttrain yet.  

He is a staunch proponent of that theory and Cullen in general

He takes Cullen seriously? I know about him, although our conversation was not on the topic of theorizing, by the way.

1Mare1 wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

You apparently have not met lasttrain yet.  

He is a staunch proponent of that theory and Cullen in general

He takes Cullen seriously? I know about him, although our conversation was not on the topic of theorizing, by the way.

yes. He may well be trolling IDK but he believes Cullen's book is the full truth and the closest Columbine event book that has ever been written. Eric is the evil mastermind and Dylan just goes with the flow.

Lizpuff wrote:

yes.  He may well be trolling IDK but he believes Cullen's book is the full truth and the closest Columbine event book that has ever been written.  Eric is the evil mastermind and Dylan just goes with the flow.

Could be joking, I'd take that with a grain of salt.

(By the way, 1Mare1 here, I see my avatar change made some confusions. )

Lizpuff wrote:

1Mare1 wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

You apparently have not met lasttrain yet.  

He is a staunch proponent of that theory and Cullen in general

He takes Cullen seriously? I know about him, although our conversation was not on the topic of theorizing, by the way.

yes.  He may well be trolling IDK but he believes Cullen's book is the full truth and the closest Columbine event book that has ever been written.  Eric is the evil mastermind and Dylan just goes with the flow.

Maybe its Cullen himself! That would be kinda hilarious. Sad for sure but also hilarious. I could see Dave trying to keep his book at the top of newbies Columbine must read list.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Maybe its Cullen himself!   That would be kinda hilarious. Sad for sure but also hilarious. I could see Dave trying to keep his book at the top of newbies Columbine must read list.

Might be possible, although I haven't seen any comments on Dylan being a fan of Linkin' park (They released their first album 2 years after Columbine, but if Cullen said that, it must be true ).

1Mare1 wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Maybe its Cullen himself!   That would be kinda hilarious. Sad for sure but also hilarious. I could see Dave trying to keep his book at the top of newbies Columbine must read list.

Might be possible, although I haven't seen any comments on Dylan being a fan of Linkin' park (They released their first album 2 years after Columbine, but if Cullen said that, it must be true ).

If poor Cullen ever does come to this forum, I'm sure he openly weeps at the posts involving him and his precious book.

Actually I would LOVE to see him come here one day and try to defend it. He would be ripped to shreds!

1Mare1 wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

yes.  He may well be trolling IDK but he believes Cullen's book is the full truth and the closest Columbine event book that has ever been written.  Eric is the evil mastermind and Dylan just goes with the flow.

Could be joking, I'd take that with a grain of salt.

(By the way, 1Mare1 here, I see my avatar change made some confusions. )

I thought so. If a joke it is an elaborate one that he has thought out many tumblr arguments to. He seems to be an older guy so not a teen fangirl and pretty intelligent so it is for sure to be a possible joke.

It is just that when he is on everything he posts is dripping with the Cullen thoughts and arguments.

1Mare1 wrote:

TheSpiral wrote:

At this point, ranting about how Eric was not a psycho or a sadist is just white noise, posts upon posts, threads upon threads rehashing the same thing over and over, presenting the same arguments again and again.
It would be refreshing to hear someone defend the Cullen narative.

I don't think anyone on this forum would non-ironically defend the idea of Eric being an alleged manipulative mastermind psycho or Dylan the poor emo boy story. Cullen's narrative can be categorized as pure fiction, therefore any attempt to reason his claims would be highly irrational.

Not a Cullen fan, but his thoughts are generally based upon feedback from close friends and most importantly FBI psychologists. Cullen gets a bit dramatic and creative, but going against the the aforementioned close friends and world class psychologists would actually be the definition of "against the grain" and "fits your personal narrative".

People are quick to point out certain samples of EH behaviors or comments that would contradict a sociopath or psychopath personality, but no one fits the "checklist" perfectly... personality disorders are a spectrum and assessed by it's sum total.

I guess I'd need a refresher on Cullen's claims related to EH. Again.. going against the thoughts of those close to him, leading psychologists, his own father and the fact that he engineered a plan and unsuccessfully attempted to massacre several hundred classmates, while still managing to reap unthinkable damage and human loss is the definition of irrational.

It's interesting too because Dylan was also adept at hiding things, even though he was having some pretty serious thoughts of suicide and at times homicide according to his journals.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

Not a Cullen fan, but his thoughts are generally based upon feedback from close friends and most importantly FBI psychologists.  Cullen gets a bit dramatic and creative, but going against the the aforementioned close friends and world class psychologists would actually be the definition of "against the grain" and "fits your personal narrative".

People are quick to point out certain samples of EH behaviors or comments that would contradict a sociopath or psychopath personality, but no one fits the "checklist" perfectly...  personality disorders are a spectrum and assessed by it's sum total.

I guess I'd need a refresher on Cullen's claims  related to EH.   Again..  going against the thoughts of those close to him, leading psychologists, his own father and the fact that he engineered a plan and unsuccessfully attempted to massacre several hundred classmates, while still managing to reap unthinkable damage and human loss is the definition of irrational.

Yes, as he is a criminologist, Cullen had put a lot of time in his research and I really can't blame him for that. However, what most people forget is, Eric's journals were not a reliable source, as there were numerous contradictions and inconsistencies related to his personality. It is quite naive to give out diagnosis for a dead teenager solely based on opinions of others. There are still not enough details about Eric's therapy sessions, nobody can precisely confirm his actual mental state.

I have never understood how everyone just excepted Fuselier's findings so easily. YES, he was the FBI's Head investigator for Columbine, but I can't help thinking he was a little hasty in his diagnosis of Eric in order to try to explain to the grieving families and the shocked public why two seemingly normal kids decided to murder people then kill themselves.

In my opinion, It is impossible to just say "Eric was a psychopath, end of story" without taking into consideration that he may have been posturing and acting in the tapes and his journal. Although I do think its safe to say that Eric was indeed suffering from a host of different mental issues.

Eric's therapist Dr. Albert has never released any part of their sessions together. Now whether he didn't release them to cover his ass an hide the fact that he knew Eric was a danger, or Eric had just never roused any suspicions. Either way, we have no access to those records. So we also have no clue what he may have been talking about during them.

It is easy to look at Columbine from one angle and say "Yeah, Harris was a complete psychopath" but if you look at it from all angles and dig below the surface then you find many things that suggest he wasn't. It is true that Eric did show some psychopathic tendencies, but there are also many factors that would knock him out of that category. No one truly knows, and all anyone can do is offer speculation and their own opinions.

This has been debated for years and will be debated for many more to come. At some point you just have to chalk it up as just another unsolvable Columbine mystery.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I have never understood how everyone just excepted Fuselier's findings so easily. YES, he was the FBI's Head investigator for Columbine,  but I can't help thinking he was a little hasty in his diagnosis of Eric in order to try to explain to the grieving families and the shocked public why two seemingly normal kids decided to murder people then kill themselves.

In my opinion,  It is impossible to just say "Eric was a psychopath, end of story" without taking into consideration that he may have been posturing and acting in the tapes and his journal. Although I do think its safe to say that Eric was indeed suffering from a host of different mental issues.

Eric's therapist Dr. Albert has never released any part of their sessions together. Now whether he didn't release them to cover his ass an hide the fact that he knew Eric was a danger, or Eric had just never roused any suspicions. Either way, we have no access to those records. So we also have no clue what he may have been talking about during them.

It is easy to look at Columbine from one angle and say "Yeah, Harris was a complete psychopath" but if you look at it from all angles and dig below the surface then you find many things that suggest he wasn't. It is true that Eric did show some psychopathic tendencies, but there are also many factors that would knock him out of that category. No one truly knows, and all anyone can do is offer speculation and their own opinions.  

This has been debated for years and will be debated for many more to come. At some point you just have to chalk it up as just another unsolvable Columbine mystery.

I can't get over the fact that Dwayne Fusilier had kids at the school. He was not unbiased. He was severely biased!

Was Dr. Albert  himself sued? I'd be interested in knowing the outcome of that.

It's easy to label him a psychopath and Dylan depressed, but I think both of them had other issues going on, it's not so cut and dry.

Dylan was just as manipulative as Eric. As far as we know he hid things a lot more. Besides a few outbursts Dylan was the goofy nice one and Eric was the dangerous one. You may be able to argue some sort of psychopathy for Dylan too.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Was Dr. Albert  himself sued? I'd be interested in knowing the outcome of that.

It's easy to label him a psychopath and Dylan depressed, but I think both of them had other issues going on, it's not so cut and dry.

Dylan was just as manipulative as Eric. As far as we know he hid things a lot more. Besides a few outbursts Dylan was the goofy nice one and Eric was the dangerous one. You may be able to argue some sort of psychopathy for Dylan too.

AFAIK he was not sued. Mostly I think bc he never had to release any info. He has never said anything. he has never said if he noticed something or not. I don't think anyone has any info for the basis of a lawsuit

Lizpuff wrote:

AFAIK he was not sued.  Mostly I think bc he never had to release any info.  He has never said anything.  he has never said if he noticed something or not.  I don't think anyone has any info for the basis of a lawsuit

I have often wondered if the good Doc keep everything private just to save his own ass. He can say "Well I never had any reason to believe that Eric was planning an attack on the school, so I see no reason to release anything." Like he would tell anyone if he knew he had screwed up.

I can somewhat agree to keeping things private if Eric were still alive (depending on the nature of the sessions), but he isn't. He even refused to let the Harris's see the session notes.

I always thought that was a dick head move on his part, to withhold info that would have likely helped Eric's mom and dad figure out what had happened, or at least what may have been going on in Eric's head during the time leading up to Columbine.

Sadly I think those session notes will never be released, and are in the most sought after Columbine Info Category, along with the full 911 call, and the Basement tapes.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

AFAIK he was not sued.  Mostly I think bc he never had to release any info.  He has never said anything.  he has never said if he noticed something or not.  I don't think anyone has any info for the basis of a lawsuit

I have often wondered if the good Doc keep everything private just to save his own ass. He can say "Well I never had any reason to believe that Eric was planning an attack on the school, so I see no reason to release anything." Like he would tell anyone if he knew he had screwed up.

I can somewhat agree to keeping things private if Eric were still alive (depending on the nature of the sessions), but he isn't. He even refused to let the Harris's see the session notes.

I always thought that was a dick head move on his part, to withhold info that would have likely helped Eric's mom and dad figure out what had happened, or at least what may have been going on in Eric's head during the time leading up to Columbine.

Sadly I think those session notes will never be released, and are in the most sought after Columbine Info Category, along with the full 911 call, and the Basement tapes.

I do wonder what they would reveal. I wonder if Eric gaslighted in therapy too. I would hope that if Dr Albert saw something that was worrisome that he would do something about it. Since he didn't it makes me think that Eric just lied to him the entire time. That he tried to breeze thru it as he did with diversion.

On the other hand though because it was not released it makes me feel like there was some cause for concern with Eric and now he is trying to keep himself out of trouble.

Great, now this thread is giving me another piece of evidence to obsess over and think about, while knowing I will probably never see it - the therapist sessions. Damn

I think the next bit of evidence we are going to get are the depositions in a few years. Unless something is leaked beforehand.

Littlelo wrote:

Great, now this thread is giving me another piece of evidence to obsess over and think about, while knowing I will probably never see it - the therapist sessions. Damn

Unfortunately this is common with Columbine. After 18 years there is still SO much that we don't know or that we don't have access to, but every now and again some little tidbit of info does get found. Case in point was the CCTV footage of Eric and Dylan planting the bombs in the Commons. When I first caught wind of that and actually saw the video, I was floored.

I still hold out hope that certain things will eventually be leaked/released, like the full 911 call. It is at the top of my Columbine Want List.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I know their journals and other writings have been analyzed up and down, but I refuse to believe there isn't something hiding in all of their chicken scratch and drawings that has yet to be discovered to give us new insight...