Junior year

There seems to be a consensus from CHS students, family and friends that E&D started their downfall Junior year. So Sophomore year ends and the two semi preppy friends who like soccer, baseball and fireworks begin their summer...

What happens? Why do you think it started then? Does depression start manifesting itself more at that age?

SK also started her "Pathway to... " sections of her book junior year.

Eric was 16 and Dylan was 15 wouldn't be 16 until September...

I can only speak for myself here.
Depression hits you like a truck. Out of nowhere. You just wake up one day and just feel like something died inside of you. No explanation.
That's how it started for me.
And then things that peeved you in the past seem magnified to a 100. And it just beats you down.
I'm not sure if it has anything to do with age, I don't think so. I think anyone is susceptible to it at any given time. Some people more than others of course.

When in 1997 did Dylan say he wanted to go on NBK with whats-her-name? Before August 1997?

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

When in 1997 did Dylan say he wanted to go on NBK with whats-her-name?  Before August 1997?

He mentioned suicide in his first entry in March 1997. He first mentioned getting a gun to kill himself in September 1997. He first mentioned going on a killing spree in November 1997. He didn't call it NBK and turn it into a killing spree with a partner until February 1998.

I took a look at Wayne Harrises notes and saw that he wrote about the van incident 29th of January so it didn't happen the same day as the RNN interview as everybody says. In the interview he has already done the crime. Isn't that really weird? He looks happy. I dont get it.

munchkinphone wrote:

I took a look at Wayne Harrises notes and saw that he wrote about the van incident 29th of January so it didn't happen the same day as the RNN interview as everybody says. In the interview he has already done the crime. Isn't that really weird? He looks happy. I dont get it.

Actually, Wayne had the wrong date written. The police reports from the van incident all confirm it occurred on January 30th, 1998.

Munchkin, I never noticed that. On Dylans arrest record it says released 1/31/98 at like 3am. That date looks like a 7 to me but 97 is Sophomore year.



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I really understand you guys on the depression manifestation. I feel like I have suffered with depression since I was really young, maybe age 12 or 13.

Dylan in the RNN interviews looks shy but really polite and the interviewer asks him at the end about being a a group learner in a funny voice, he cracks a smile.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but Dylan lit the RNN logo on fire, does that mean he worked with RNN?

I think I am going to ask that question in the small questions thread.

Littlelo wrote:

munchkinphone wrote:

I took a look at Wayne Harrises notes and saw that he wrote about the van incident 29th of January so it didn't happen the same day as the RNN interview as everybody says. In the interview he has already done the crime. Isn't that really weird? He looks happy. I dont get it.

Actually, Wayne had the wrong date written. The police reports from the van incident all confirm it occurred on January 30th, 1998.

I posted my response before I saw yours, thanks Littlelo

Screamingophelia wrote:

There seems to be a consensus from CHS students, family and friends that E&D started their downfall Junior year. So Sophomore year ends and the two semi preppy friends who like soccer, baseball and fireworks begin their summer...

What happens? Why do you think it started then? Does depression start manifesting itself more at that age?

SK also started her "Pathway to... " sections of her book junior year.

Eric was 16 and Dylan was 15 wouldn't be 16 until September...

I feel like every time I try to answer questions like this I can never point to one specific thing that caused an event to happen.

Their downward spirals can be attributed to a combination of things: developing mental illness, losing touch with other friends and joining into a closer and more toxic friendship, fear of the future and life after high school, unhappiness with their personal lives and lack of romantic relationships, a perceived sense of hopelessness/helplessness...the list goes on.

There are so many pieces to the puzzle.

It's kinda strange thinking that it only took a year for these killers' mental state to deteriorate so badly they decided to shoot up their school. If only someone had been there to let Eric know he just sounded like an edgy faggot (sorry can't think of any other word). Or maybe if he'd waited a year for his edgy phase to end, I wouldn't doubt if the media he consumed had an impact on his behaviour honestly, DOOM and Marilyn Manson is definitely to blame for his edginess.

Littlelo wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

There seems to be a consensus from CHS students, family and friends that E&D started their downfall Junior year. So Sophomore year ends and the two semi preppy friends who like soccer, baseball and fireworks begin their summer...

What happens? Why do you think it started then? Does depression start manifesting itself more at that age?

SK also started her "Pathway to... " sections of her book junior year.

Eric was 16 and Dylan was 15 wouldn't be 16 until September...

I feel like every time I try to answer questions like this I can never point to one specific thing that caused an event to happen.

Their downward spirals can be attributed to a combination of things: developing mental illness, losing touch with other friends and joining into a closer and more toxic friendship, fear of the future and life after high school, unhappiness with their personal lives and lack of romantic relationships, a perceived sense of hopelessness/helplessness...the list goes on.

There are so many pieces to the puzzle.

It's a cluster of things that seemed to maybe escalate in junior year.

I find it interesting too one I BELIEVE Dylan's cross it said "you died a year ago and no one noticed" Is that a correct memory?

i don't think I've ever seen that, if anyone else knows I'd be interested to see!

Oddly I'm only finding a picture of Dylans cross and not Erics and I'm seeing it was on Erics and not Dylans.

I will keep looking.

Junior year was definetly the year things really took a turn for the worst. Two incidents in particular I feel really got them on the road to no return. First was the van arrest and Second was the ketchup/tampon incident which seemed to really fuck them up more than any other humiliation they may have had prior or after.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Oddly I'm only finding a picture of Dylans cross and not Erics and I'm seeing it was on Erics and not Dylans.

I will keep looking.

I have read about that being written on Eric's cross as well.

If it was really written on there I would LOVE to know by whom, and the meaning behind it.

JMAN0723 wrote:

Junior year was definetly the year things really took a turn for the worst.  Two incidents in particular I feel really got them on the road to no return.  First was the van arrest and Second was the ketchup/tampon incident which seemed to really fuck them up more than any other humiliation they may have had prior or after.  

Agreed. It was mostly all down hill after those particular points. Especially the botched van caper. I think both Eric and Dylan were pissed off, and very embarrassed that they had gotten caught. These kids thought they were miles ahead of everyone intelligence wise. Yet in their opinion they were brought down by a lowly, stupid Deputy. That must have gotten under their skin, then they were made to act like they had seen the error of their ways in order to continue on with planning NBK. Those two things likely helped fuel E&D's rage.

I agree 100% about the van incident. It added to their shared anger most of all. Now I just wonder why they did it in the first place? Dumb teenagers causing mischief or something deeper?

The thing about the quote that gets me is that now we know that Eric and Dylan pretty much planned for NBK for a year. But at that time the public had no idea.

So that means that Eric and Dylan (or atleast for sure Eric) started to change enough in the year prior that it was majorly noticeable. And it sounds like more than a clothing change or a music interest change.

I would love to know who wrote that.

Littlelo wrote:

I agree 100% about the van incident. It added to their shared anger most of all. Now I just wonder why they did it in the first place? Dumb teenagers causing mischief or something deeper?

Who knows, possibly both. But I think the fact they considered themselves as Covert Ninja Bad Ass Missions Experts likely played a role. They had gotten by with the petty vandalism of the Rebel Missions and maybe wanted to try something bigger.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

I agree 100% about the van incident. It added to their shared anger most of all. Now I just wonder why they did it in the first place? Dumb teenagers causing mischief or something deeper?

Who knows, possibly both. But I think the fact they considered themselves as Covert Ninja Bad Ass Missions Experts likely played a role. They had gotten by with the petty vandalism of the Rebel Missions and maybe wanted to try something bigger.

Very good theory. They wanted to escalate things a little to see what they could get away with. I wonder if they realized just how serious the offense was (in a legal sense) or if they thought they would get away with it so it didn't matter.

Lizpuff wrote:

The thing about the quote that gets me is that now we know that Eric and Dylan pretty much planned for NBK for a year.  But at that time the public had no idea.  

So that means that Eric and Dylan (or atleast for sure Eric) started to change enough in the year prior that it was majorly noticeable.  And it sounds like more than a clothing change or a music interest change.  

I would love to know who wrote that.

It makes me extremely sad to think of their deterioration leading up to 4/20. What makes me sadder is knowing that some people may have noticed it and said nothing until that day, or the days and weeks following.

Littlelo wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

I agree 100% about the van incident. It added to their shared anger most of all. Now I just wonder why they did it in the first place? Dumb teenagers causing mischief or something deeper?

Who knows, possibly both. But I think the fact they considered themselves as Covert Ninja Bad Ass Missions Experts likely played a role. They had gotten by with the petty vandalism of the Rebel Missions and maybe wanted to try something bigger.

Very good theory. They wanted to escalate things a little to see what they could get away with. I wonder if they realized just how serious the offense was (in a legal sense) or if they thought they would get away with it so it didn't matter.

In my opinion both thought they would get away with it as they had with the other things. I believe that's why both E&D took it so hard that they were caught. It was a hit to their inflated egos.

Lizpuff wrote:

The thing about the quote that gets me is that now we know that Eric and Dylan pretty much planned for NBK for a year.  But at that time the public had no idea.  

So that means that Eric and Dylan (or atleast for sure Eric) started to change enough in the year prior that it was majorly noticeable.  And it sounds like more than a clothing change or a music interest change.  

I would love to know who wrote that.

A lot of the conspiracy theorists say that quote was in regards to Eric getting raped by Walsh. I think that has been debunked enough times over the years.

But it still make one wonder what it means, and who wrote it. Also who would have known Eric enough to notice when he started changing enough to have "died" in their eyes.

I just googled photos of their crosses and was refreshing my memory on what people wrote on them.

I will say that I am impressed by the compassion some people had for the families and the boys themselves. I don't think it translated well into real life, but the messages at least show that they believed society failed them.

Why were there 15 crosses to begin with? Why did so many people immediately forgive them? They realized that E&D were not "evil".

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

The thing about the quote that gets me is that now we know that Eric and Dylan pretty much planned for NBK for a year.  But at that time the public had no idea.  

So that means that Eric and Dylan (or atleast for sure Eric) started to change enough in the year prior that it was majorly noticeable.  And it sounds like more than a clothing change or a music interest change.  

I would love to know who wrote that.

A lot of the conspiracy theorists say that quote was in regards to Eric getting raped by Walsh. I think that has been debunked enough times over the years.

But it still make one wonder what it means, and who wrote it. Also who would have known Eric enough to notice when he started changing enough to have "died" in their eyes.

Hahahah. Well I am pretty much 100% certain the Walsh thing never happened. I am trying to think of who it may be. No real theories yet but shrug

Littlelo wrote:

I just googled photos of their crosses and was refreshing my memory on what people wrote on them.

I will say that I am impressed by the compassion some people had for the families and the boys themselves. I don't think it translated well into real life, but the messages at least show that they believed society failed them.

Why were there 15 crosses to begin with? Why did so many people immediately forgive them? They realized that E&D were not "evil".

The man who made them has made crosses for other tragedies as well and when he does he always makes a cross for everyone including the perpetrator. And honestly I agree with that. Like it or not Eric and Dylan died that day and no matter what they did, people missed them.

However, For the memorial I do not think they should be over there.

Lizpuff wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

I just googled photos of their crosses and was refreshing my memory on what people wrote on them.

I will say that I am impressed by the compassion some people had for the families and the boys themselves. I don't think it translated well into real life, but the messages at least show that they believed society failed them.

Why were there 15 crosses to begin with? Why did so many people immediately forgive them? They realized that E&D were not "evil".

The man who made them has made crosses for other tragedies as well and when he does he always makes a cross for everyone including the perpetrator.  And honestly I agree with that.  Like it or not Eric and Dylan died that day and no matter what they did, people missed them.

However, For the memorial I do not think they should be over there.  

I agree with that. Eric and Dylan was still someone's child, brother and friend.

What happened to Eric during the summer, I have no idea but when Junior year started Dylan had lost contact with Zach and felt he had no friends and then Eric started dating Sasha who had previously dated Dylan but didn't like him. How do you guys think it affected him?

The Van incident happened in January which is also when Eric stopped dating Sasha. Does this have any relevance?

munchkinphone wrote:

What happened to Eric during the summer, I have no idea but when Junior year started Dylan had lost contact with Zach and felt he had no friends and then Eric started dating Sasha who had previously dated Dylan but didn't like him. How do you guys think it affected him?

The Van incident happened in January which is also when Eric stopped dating Sasha. Does this have any relevance?

I always thought it was a dickish move on Eric's part to date a girl one of his friends had dated. Bro's before Hoe's!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

munchkinphone wrote:

What happened to Eric during the summer, I have no idea but when Junior year started Dylan had lost contact with Zach and felt he had no friends and then Eric started dating Sasha who had previously dated Dylan but didn't like him. How do you guys think it affected him?

The Van incident happened in January which is also when Eric stopped dating Sasha. Does this have any relevance?

I always thought it was a dickish move on Eric's part to date a girl one of his friends had dated.  Bro's before Hoe's!

Yeah right!? broke the brocode and everything. I'm thinking maybe they talked about it when Eric stopped dating her and got closer and that contributed to them feeling like they should do something just the two of them, the van incident.

Just speculations though

Agreed, I think the crosses for E & D were fine but I'm also okay with them NOT being in the permanent memorial.

I bet even for their friends, hindsight had to be 20/20 for them. They were young, so it's hard enough to deal with your own crap.

I am also interested in who wrote that on Eric's cross, I had thought it was Dylans for a while and assumed maybe it was Devon or Zach.

I don't have a lot to add right now because I agree with everything said

As far as Sasha, there is a theory that when Dylan talks about being "normal" it is when he went out with Sasha, and he didn't really like it. So I'm not sure if he was that invested in it.

I wonder if she now feels like back then she had a certain type or bad judgement in men. Sasha you dated TWO mass murderers.

Eric was angry at Nate for going out with Kristi but neither of them from what we have heard really cared about Sasha, it didn't affect their friendship.

ShadowedGoddess- I thought Sasha was Freshman/Sophomore year? I thought they were relatively younger.

Munchkin, I was thinking along the same lines tbh.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

munchkinphone wrote:

What happened to Eric during the summer, I have no idea but when Junior year started Dylan had lost contact with Zach and felt he had no friends and then Eric started dating Sasha who had previously dated Dylan but didn't like him. How do you guys think it affected him?

The Van incident happened in January which is also when Eric stopped dating Sasha. Does this have any relevance?

I always thought it was a dickish move on Eric's part to date a girl one of his friends had dated.  Bro's before Hoe's!

Maybe Dylan thought it was a sign of loyalty when Eric stopped dating Sasha, he didn't feel so abandoned. Dylan took everything to heart. I feel like it would hard to be friends with him sometimes.

Anyone else feel like Dylan probably wouldn't express it to Eric if he was upset about him dating Sasha? I mean, it would probably be more implied than anything. But I feel like he was so self-reliant and wanted to act like all was good, he wouldn't bring it up.

Littlelo wrote:

Anyone else feel like Dylan probably wouldn't express it to Eric if he was upset about him dating Sasha? I mean, it would probably be more implied than anything. But I feel like he was so self-reliant and wanted to act like all was good, he wouldn't bring it up.

He kept a lot in, but sometimes I think if he could talk to anyone it would be Eric.

That is true... and when Eric stopped dating her I do agree they were probably able to get closer.

Junior year was the start of the spiral, there is no doubt. I just wonder what other little incidents may have occurred (specifically with Eric) that we don't know about.

Dylan told his parents that no one bothered him but they bothered Eric a lot. Though we know that's not totally true.

This was also pre medicated Eric and it sounds like right before Junior Year he was having outbursts even against Dylan, like when Dylan performed poorly at a soccer game and Dylan just walked with his parents with his head down and just let Eric yell at him.

Then again other times he tells Eric to shut up and leave people alone.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Dylan told his parents that no one bothered him but they bothered Eric a lot. Though we know that's not totally true.

This was also pre medicated Eric and it sounds like right before Junior Year he was having outbursts even against Dylan, like when Dylan performed poorly at a soccer game and Dylan just walked with his parents with his head down and just let Eric yell at him.

Then again other times he tells Eric to shut up and leave people alone.

I always wonder exactly what Eric ended up telling his therapist. In his journal he says "my doctor wants to put me on medication to stop thinking about so many things and to stop getting angry".

He may have come clean about his outbursts and maybe he said he has racing thoughts? Eric seemed to fester over things, he got angry over EVERY slight and every perceived slight.

Dylan said he never stopped thinking either.

I also never stop thinking, hence why I do yoga. Though it makes me an excellent writer yet my head is in the clouds most of the day, not about me though.

I found that Eric wrote this about Sasha in Chad Laughlins yearbook “Sasha is a fat trendy whiney annoying terd and I went out w/ her cause I felt sorry for her I guess. Oh well. I bet you’ll show her this.“

Maybe she dumped him after hearing about the Ketchup incident or something? That would be a shitty thing to do that would motivate such hatred, then again maybe just Eric being Eric.

munchkinphone wrote:

I found that Eric wrote this about Sasha in Chad Laughlins yearbook “Sasha is a fat trendy whiney annoying terd and I went out w/ her cause I felt sorry for her I guess. Oh well. I bet you’ll show her this.“

Maybe she dumped him after hearing about the Ketchup incident or something? That would be a shitty thing to do that would motivate such hatred, then again maybe just Eric being Eric.

Eric was a petty minded person. I assume he wanted Sasha to see that.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

munchkinphone wrote:

I found that Eric wrote this about Sasha in Chad Laughlins yearbook “Sasha is a fat trendy whiney annoying terd and I went out w/ her cause I felt sorry for her I guess. Oh well. I bet you’ll show her this.“

Maybe she dumped him after hearing about the Ketchup incident or something? That would be a shitty thing to do that would motivate such hatred, then again maybe just Eric being Eric.

Eric was a petty minded person. I assume he wanted Sasha to see that.

Oh GOD yes he did. I agree 100%

Surprising that Dylan would go out with her, he didn't really like trendy rich people, though Dylan always seemed VERY rich to me, but then again I didn't grow up with a ton of money. 5 of my houses could have fit into his.

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

munchkinphone wrote:

I found that Eric wrote this about Sasha in Chad Laughlins yearbook “Sasha is a fat trendy whiney annoying terd and I went out w/ her cause I felt sorry for her I guess. Oh well. I bet you’ll show her this.“

Maybe she dumped him after hearing about the Ketchup incident or something? That would be a shitty thing to do that would motivate such hatred, then again maybe just Eric being Eric.

Eric was a petty minded person. I assume he wanted Sasha to see that.

Oh GOD yes he did. I agree 100%

Surprising that Dylan would go out with her, he didn't really like trendy rich people, though Dylan always seemed VERY rich to me, but then again I didn't grow up with a ton of money. 5 of my houses could have fit into his.

To me, it sounded like a group date with others that was setup by someone else. I am not sure Dylan on his own decided to date her.

Lizpuff wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

munchkinphone wrote:

I found that Eric wrote this about Sasha in Chad Laughlins yearbook “Sasha is a fat trendy whiney annoying terd and I went out w/ her cause I felt sorry for her I guess. Oh well. I bet you’ll show her this.“

Maybe she dumped him after hearing about the Ketchup incident or something? That would be a shitty thing to do that would motivate such hatred, then again maybe just Eric being Eric.

Eric was a petty minded person. I assume he wanted Sasha to see that.

Oh GOD yes he did. I agree 100%

Surprising that Dylan would go out with her, he didn't really like trendy rich people, though Dylan always seemed VERY rich to me, but then again I didn't grow up with a ton of money. 5 of my houses could have fit into his.

To me, it sounded like a group date with others that was setup by someone else.  I am not sure Dylan on his own decided to date her.

That is a good point, because if he made the decision to date her he probably would have said something to his parents. At the very least saying "hey I want to take this girl out for pizza, can I borrow money or get a ride?"

Sue said it was mostly the group dating situations for him.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

munchkinphone wrote:

I found that Eric wrote this about Sasha in Chad Laughlins yearbook “Sasha is a fat trendy whiney annoying terd and I went out w/ her cause I felt sorry for her I guess. Oh well. I bet you’ll show her this.“

Maybe she dumped him after hearing about the Ketchup incident or something? That would be a shitty thing to do that would motivate such hatred, then again maybe just Eric being Eric.

Eric was a petty minded person. I assume he wanted Sasha to see that.

Oh GOD yes he did. I agree 100%

Surprising that Dylan would go out with her, he didn't really like trendy rich people, though Dylan always seemed VERY rich to me, but then again I didn't grow up with a ton of money. 5 of my houses could have fit into his.

To me, it sounded like a group date with others that was setup by someone else.  I am not sure Dylan on his own decided to date her.

That is a good point, because if he made the decision to date her he probably would have said something to his parents. At the very least saying "hey I want to take this girl out for pizza, can I borrow money or get a ride?"

Sue said it was mostly the group dating situations for him.

I have wondered about that. In this group dating was there actually a designated girl for Dylan, someone he was interested in, who may have been interested in him? OR was he mainly just a tag-a-long?

In my mind, the group dating was a way to get to know someone they liked, without too much pressure or chance for rejection.

So Sasha was part of their friend group, maybe there were 5 or 6 kids and Dylan and Sasha maybe talked both times but liked Eric more and so they decided to "date"

I never dated in HS... so I don't know.

When we use the term "date", it's more like "hanging out" right? I mean, was it ever one on one? Movies? Out to dinner?

Littlelo wrote:

When we use the term "date", it's more like "hanging out" right? I mean, was it ever one on one? Movies? Out to dinner?

I'm not sure. Back then if you were seriously talking to someone, that would be considered as dating them.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

When we use the term "date", it's more like "hanging out" right? I mean, was it ever one on one? Movies? Out to dinner?

I'm not sure. Back then if you were seriously talking to someone, that would be considered as dating them.

That's what I was thinking. I doubt they really went out all the time together the way we think of actual "dating".