Question about the shooters

Most do not go in planning to get away. They enter the target area either expecting to be killed by police or to end thier own lives. Most of the clothing they wear are costumes, either emulating what they are think "real killers" wear or what they think will strike fear into the hearts of thier victims.

The "active shooter" response is based on the idea that most shooters are spree killers, not looking for an escape, but rather for a body count.

Best advice for survival is to as mply drop everything and run. If faced directly by the shooter, don't freeze up, move. A moving target is damn near impossible for an amateur shooter to hit. If faced by a gunman with a rifle and no chance to flee, grab the barrel for dear life and force it up or down. No matter how strong the gunman is, it will be near impossible for him to hit you or anyone with your hand thrusting the barrel all over the place. Sounds crazy, but it works.

However you should know to that the barrel of a gun get hot if he fires it while you're holding it.

Best case is to find a fire extinguisher every classroom has them, If confronted spray his eyes, block his vision and then hit him with the extinguisher. Anything you can use to blind the gunman is best. Even if you're shot, blinding him would irritate his eyes hopefully making it harder for the gunman to shoot others.

Also from watching this active shooter videos. They need to start training people to know what a gunshot sounds like. Seems like people are always second guessing the sounds and blowing them off. They need to not only train kids or adults in offices on how to hide in the classroom or office. But what to do if you're in the bathroom and out of the offices. You're alone and hear gunfire they need to teach what to do in that dilemma.

Very well aware the barrel of a rifle gets hot. Spent pretty much my entire adult life either in the service or with those who were. Barrel is hot? Yup. Hand burns or death? Your choice. Plus, you won't always have the chance to reach an extinguisher. Might be in a hallway or on the other side of the room.

Fire extinguisher is great...if it is CO2...or if the chemical charge is strong enough to propel it far enough to be effective.

Take it from me. I have been in small rooms with trained men and women with automatic weapons trying to kill me (Iraq), either run or go for the gun if you are too close.

You are correct about sounds. People think guns sound like they do in the movies. Watch the videos of the Las Vegas massacre to see just what it is a gun sounds like and how few people, even people who probably knew a good amount about guns, made the right decision to run in those critical first few seconds. Good call on your part about sounds!

KreSade wrote:

how to survive these school or office shootings

Did this happen to be one of the videos you watched?

In the school I went to every classroom has a fire extinguisher in them. Any action taken should be quick and used wisely. The cloud from the discharged extinguisher would be enough to disorientate the gunman. I worked as a volunteer at a youth center and one kid decided to discharge a extinguisher and run away. But it left this white foamy stuff on the tables. I imagine if that were to get in someones eyes it would probably blind them and cause a lot of pain hindering their ability to continue or at least weakening their efforts. Best move is to take out their eyes and then hit them with the tank.

STK wrote:

KreSade wrote:

how to survive these school or office shootings

Did this happen to be one of the videos you watched?

Kinda I've been watching other ones. Like this one, it's kinda weird. They tell the students to turn off the cellphones not even vibrate because you don't want the shooter to know you're in there. It's during the day most people would be aware that students are in the classrooms. Objective is to seek cover in a locked door, so in case the shooter decides to spray the door they won't hit anyone. They don't need to be in there texting people. But just I think the wrong way to explain the situation.

The other part is the schools protocol. The principle or Hall monitor whoever she is. Ran to the office to get the police. However the techers were still oblivious to the shooter. Seems like they should have a button or a way to alert the other teachers that the school is on lockdown.

STK wrote:

KreSade wrote:

how to survive these school or office shootings

Did this happen to be one of the videos you watched?

That thumbnail is wonderful 

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ...let's hope neither of us ever have to put these theories to test.

Thank you for the info, though. I do mean that sincerely. I will be sure to integrate the part about the fire extinguisher into my next presentation.

About barricading the door, a professor and Holocaust survivor at Virginia Tech was killed when he used his body to block Cho from getting to his students. Survives the horrors of the Holocaust only to be gunned down in suburban Virginia. I feel sorry for everyone who died that day, but it seems especially unfair in that man's case.

My father and I installed interior side deadbolts on every classroom door in my son's school. Flip of the wrist and, while it won't hurt to add a barricade, in half a second no one on this Earth is going to make it through.

It's the right move, but those kids in the dramatization would remember the sounds of the pleading, begging, screaming, and fingernails scratching at the barricaded door in a moment of dying panic for the rest of thier lives. They should be taking that time to arm themselves instead of huddling.

Heh. Ooh-rah! White cop with the M16 was a Marine. He holds his rifle in a unique manner taught to all Marine riflemen.

Semperfidelis wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ...let's hope neither of us ever have to put these theories to test.  

Thank you for the info, though.  I do mean that sincerely.  I will be sure to integrate the part about the fire extinguisher into my next presentation.

About barricading the door, a professor and Holocaust survivor at Virginia Tech was killed when he used his body to block Cho from getting to his students.  Survives the horrors of the Holocaust only to be gunned down in suburban Virginia.  I feel sorry for everyone who died that day, but it seems especially unfair in that man's case.

Thanks for the conversation. My logic in fighting is take out their eyes, take out their eyes they can't see where they're shooting and the irritation would certainly be enough to cause them pain and distract them from killing as they'd probably rubbing their eyes. The reason I chose the extinguisher is I know they often have blinding chemicals in them as stated on the tanks, but also they're lightweight so you can swing it and hit them with it. Obviously any plan of attack should be swift. You're not trying to dance with him. So the one flaw with the extinguisher would be if the shooter see's and then shoots it. Then it would be a bomb. But when used effectively its a good tool, they're easy to get. Again I know my school the glass rooms had them in there. Even getting shot in the process the pain of CO2 or whatever is in their eyes would hopefully decrease their aim.

And thank you for the conversation as well! I love learning new things, especially if those things might save a child's life.

The gunshot sounds used in the second video were pretty good! You were spot on with your observation about the noises a rifle makes in reality.

The around they used for fully automatic fire was, however, terrible. Simply laughable.

What no fictional account of mass violence can ever convey are the horrid sights and smells of a shooting (cordite, blood, urine, intestines, brains, fecal matter etc.), the true sounds of a person dying (piteous begging, screaming, death rattles) and the Earth shattering, mind numbing silence that falls over a place of mass death once the killing has stopped.

I only wish I could have been there for those poor angels at Sandy Hook.

Let's keep up the conversation. Perhaps others would like to learn as well.

Yeah me too, I wish I could have there for Columbine. But I was like 10 years old. I'm not saying what I would have done because there is no telling. There's a phrase that goes "Everyone has a plan, until there punched in the mouth." Its even harder I think because I been reading the reports. Amanda Stair Duran talks about her testimony. She was between Kasey and Steve. But I was listening to her story and at the same looking at the diagrams and piecing things together. So understanding guns and what they do to people, listening to the witness' and see the library. i have pretty clear image in my head about what happened in that library. It's spooky.

However this site should be talking about what to do. It can save lives. In no way am I saying I would play a hero and just run out and fight the gunmen. However I would hope i act smart and help my friends. Even in those videos simulations the kids need to learn to keep quiet so you can hear whats going on. Learn what gunfire sounds like. Not only barricade the door but get as much thick stuff in between you and the shooter. Because bullets can pierce doors. Although a lot of doors now are built differently in school, they're thicker and bullet proof.

Perhaps we could approach the moderator of the site and propose a "Prevention and Preparedness" forum. It would help make this site and into even more of a learning resource.

I would actually be interested in taking each shooting and demonstrating what was done right and wrong in each case. There's so much wrong with how the teachers responded in Sandy Hook (not blaming them at all, it was chaos) we really could potentially help save some lives, especially with the help of all of the people here with thier deep interest in the minutae of these shootings.

It is so good to digitally meet you! I am glad to have found someone with a similar interest in helping save lives.

Semperfidelis wrote:

Perhaps we could approach the moderator of the site and propose a "Prevention and Preparedness" forum.  It would help make this site and into even more of a learning resource.

It is so good to digitally meet you!  I am glad to have found someone with a similar interest in helping save lives.

I pray to the Lord that it never comes to me that I have to act upon these plans. Like I said I was 10 when this happened. Really the first real tragedy that I can remember. I remember I was obsessively watching the news. My sister warned me and said not to do that, because it can make you go crazy. Here I am reading and studying it. The only thing i don't do is listen to any of the 911 tape or want to hear from the shooters. I don't even want to know what they sound like.

It's tempting, like i want to listen to the 9/11 tape by Nielson, because it says the phone was recording for like 20 minutes, after she put the hook down. So I wonder if it's possible to hear the shooters talking from the phone.

The full 911 isn't available. A very terrifying 4 or 5 minutes, where you can hear several people die, is available. I hate listening to it because there but for God's good grace go my children.

I have killed people in combat before...and I hate that it happened because the people I killed were someone's little boy once...just like my little boys are. Eric and Dylan killed people's little boys and girls and, as much as I empathize with being the victim of bullying, I hate them for what they did in that library and to those other kids around the school.

The bullying is over hyped by the media. I don't know if it was bad as it they say it was or not. But it's minuscule compared to what their actions were. The bullying really doesn't matter after the fact, murder is the sin they chose.

I read a report given by one of the victims Adam Kyler, "When authorities asked Adam how he knew Dylan, Adam told them that Dylan had begun harassing him at school around November and December 1998. It got so bad that Adam's mother, Susan Kyler, reported it to the school authorities who said they would take care of the problem. There were no further issues with Klebold after that.

When the Kylers reported Dylan back then, Adam had told investigators that Dylan had been with a group of four kids in black trenchcoats had told him near Christmas 1998 that they would kill him if he went to class and that if he told anyone about the threats they would shoot him. He also said at the time that these students were part of a group known as the Trench Coat Mafia. However, in a later interview with officials, he said he hadn't had any problems with any of the other Trench Coat Mafia students except for Dylan during the harrassment. He said then that while Dylan was harrassing him three other students, believed to be Trench Coat Mafia members, were with Dylan but that they weren't actually involved in the harrassment. Susan told investigators that Adam had a learning disability and that she believed it to be the reason Dylan had harrassed her son."

So as with that report Dylan wasn't innocent in pretty severe bullying himself. So the notion that they did this because of bullying goes out the window if they took part in bullying as well. My belief is that people are capable of mass destruction just because they felt like it. They don't need a real motive. Just like the Las vegas shooting, he could have just woken up one day and decided he wanted to kill people. As you know from combat this world is evil. Through God's grace that I am able to face it and be protected from it.

I watched American Sniper once. I got a bit of PTSD when I watched it. I can never see it again that scene with the drill and the little boy haunts me.

I will have to pick this up again tomorrow, but it really has been a pleasure talking to you.

I am getting too tired to keep up with your high quality posts! I will be on again tomorrow afternoon, though.

Thank you again. I enjoyed learning what you just wrote about Dylan. Never knew that. I still believe bullying was the primary cause, but I don't delude myself into viewing that as an excuse to kill.

Semperfidelis wrote:

Perhaps we could approach the moderator of the site and propose a "Prevention and Preparedness" forum.  It would help make this site and into even more of a learning resource.

I would actually be interested in taking each shooting and demonstrating what was done right and wrong in each case.  There's so much wrong with how the teachers responded in Sandy Hook (not blaming them at all, it was chaos) we really could potentially help save some lives, especially with the help of all of the people here with thier deep interest in the minutae of these shootings.

It is so good to digitally meet you!  I am glad to have found someone with a similar interest in helping save lives.

Do you know how to message a mod. So we can discuss the possibility of starting a Prevention forum. One of the things people can do is post video simulators and discuss the videos and correct some of the information. Like said about the one I posted, I don't agree with playing Hide and seek. Where the teacher tells them to silence Cell phones so they don't know they're in there. The shooter is in a school during the day, he knows the classrooms are full.

I can't figure out how to PM on this forum...

Yeah, not a big fan of the hide and seek either. Flee fast.

Semperfidelis wrote:

I can't figure out how to PM on this forum...

Yeah, not a big fan of the hide and seek either.  Flee fast.

Yeah but speaking within the classroom. It is important to get cover and get as much stuff in between you and the door. So if he tries to spray the door whatever's blocking it will keep the bullets from penetrating all the way into the classroom. If anything the teacher should be on her phone trying to alert the police, and not assume everyone in the school is aware of the shooting. Obviously the principle in that scenario knew about the gunfire, alerted the lady in the office, but the teacher's still didn't know. What's the point of the walkie talkie if she's just talking to the secretary? I imagine some button or thing should be pressed to alert the teachers to get cover. I know my school had electric doors and that can be closed and locked from a button in the office. Heavy doors to, not only does it protect from intruders, it stops fires from spreading but enclosing the area.

KreSade wrote:

In the school I went to every classroom has a fire extinguisher in them. Any action taken should be quick and used wisely. The cloud from the discharged extinguisher would be enough to disorientate the gunman. I worked as a volunteer at a youth center and one kid decided to discharge a extinguisher and run away. But it left this white foamy stuff on the tables. I imagine if that were to get in someones eyes it would probably blind them and cause a lot of pain hindering their ability to continue or at least weakening their efforts. Best move is to take out their eyes and then hit them with the tank.

Gotta be honest, I've never understood why people thought the fire extinguisher trick would work to do much more than temporarily confuse a shooter (if the shooter is particularly stupid or incapable). If your fire extinguisher puts out fires with CS gas, maybe.

As for the models of the shooters in the simulation, I'm sure the decision wasn't made to indicate the intentions of a hypothetical shooter. If you take a look at these shootings, you'll find fashion is actually something the gunmen worry about. They're concerned with creating "their" massacre, the one they'll be remembered for. They get custom Tee Shirts made with edgy slogans. They wear dusters that can't possibly assist mobility until they realize how cumbersome and stupid it is.

The models most likely reflect that, just in a watered down and fucked up way. So pretty much like the Government does shit

But how would anyone on a this forum understand being edgy?

Christ, remember the extra, what , 20 pounds of gear you wish you didn't have when going door to door, house to house? I can't imagine wearing a duster for anything other than concealing weaponry.

Obviously in order for any attack of defense to work you gotta be smart about it and quick. I know that the chemicals in fire extinguishers whether its CO2 or that foam. Will damage eyes. In order for it to work you gotta shot them with the extinguisher, then once they're disoriented, the tank is heavy enough of an object that hitting them with it would really hurt. The fog and smoke from the discharge will cause disorientation. If you're close enough to hit them with the extinguisher you're close enough hit them in the face. I would make sure to hit them in the hands to smash their hands so they can't use them anymore. I'm trying to think of things that are laying around that would be practical. Any actions should be swift. Obviously with multiple gunmen the scenario doesn't work. But my hope is the discharge will be enough to irritate the gunman's eyes. Making it harder to aim. It would slow them down at least.

"Will damage eyes" -- You're talking about the long term, and the disorientation you're expecting is from playing too many video games and watching too many movies. It's great that you're thinking about small details, but you're clearly doing it without a frame of reference. That's dangerous as hell. If you have one action in close proximity to a shooter and you can take it with impunity, you'd better cause some real, actual damage -- not count on some super uncomfy smoke.

Well right after shooting him with the fire extinguisher, while he is blinded by it. I would follow it up with hitting him with it.

Even a small canister is pretty capable of damage when hit in the face or head with it. Probably knock them out.

I do know how to fight, so if I got close enough I can stop them.

My aim wouldn't be to end their lives. Although it would depend on the situation obviously if that's the route then I'd take it. However I want them to face their crimes. But I would smash their hands so they can't use them.

But I want them to face the crimes, although as evidence has shown in this nation. Example of the Boston bombers and James Holmes, they just get life. When they should be marched to the front of the line.

Any way, Did anyone hear about the School in PA that was saved? Some kid was planning an attack and for some reason talking about it on a bus. When another student heard he went and reported it. Action was taken and they searched the boy's room and found a stash of guns. Can consider that a victory for Columbine you know. Glad someone took action reported it and it was stopped.

Uniontown. Other side of the state from me. Thank God for the vigilance of that one student.

BTW- I pm'd the owner of the forum about our little idea for a topic.

Uniontown is also on the other side of the state from me. Small world. Cool I hope it takes off with that idea. We should be talking about what to do.

You in PA? Scranton here.

I live 2 hours from Philly. Not giving exact location.

That's cool. I suppose I live 2 hours from Philly, too! We might be neighbors!

wow I honestly thought Scraton was like over by Erie. How's the paper company doing? LOL

Ah, good old Dundee Mifflin. My town's claim to fame.

Yeah, Scranton is due north of Philly. Up the 476 Turnpike extension.

That puts you 2 hours west of Philly, so probably around an old Navy Depot I was once stationed at near Carlisle or Mechanicsburg. Used to recruit out of Selinsgrove/Sunbury area, too.

You're pretty close. We played Berwick in Football a couple of times.

I used to fly to Lancaster Airport when I Was getting my pilot's license. There's a restaurant there with great buffalo wings.

To survive a shooting just cuck the shooter with a sofa.

Moordenaar wrote:

To survive a shooting just cuck the shooter with a sofa.

a logical, common sense move

If only schools had more sofa's.

KreSade wrote:

If only schools had more sofa's.

LOL EVERYBODY LOOK THIS DUDE DOESN'T CARRY HIS OWN SOFA TO SCHOOL

I carry a lazy-boy

Concealed? Or would that technically be a futon?

Semperfidelis wrote:

Concealed?  Or would that technically be a futon?

I put futon's in my soup.