Jocks and guilt.

Even though when E&D started finally killing they were killing anyone - do you feel the Jocks felt guilt over how they treated them?
When E&D entered the library the testimony from what few Jocks were in there shows that they hid their white hats so they would not be killed. I know that there was some talk of 'white hats stand up' - the other witnesses say that it seemed they weren't targeting anyone in particular and killing at random.

In some of the 911 call videos on youtube in the transcripts they write that Eric says "everyone with white hat stand up" I only hear " right before Dylan yells "everybody up now!" which I can hear on the tape then "you're all mine" which I cannot hear. I assume they yelled something about jocks but seemed to take out their aggression at everyone.

As far as guilt, Evan Todd has never shown any guilt or any sense of changing his ways but then again the last time I read any interviews with him was over 15 years ago so who knows? Was he known for being a bully before?

On the show Intervention one of the jocks from CHS who graduated a year or 2 before stated that he was pretty mean to Eric and Dylan and felt remorse.

I imagine on one hand there must be the thought of "I was a bully but these two murdered and tormented people so fuck them" E and D became the ultimate bullies that day. They didn't decide to go and beat up their bullies they murdered innocent people.

However, if I tormented someone and they ended up hurting themselves or others I would feel guilty and mend my ways, make sure that I was as kind as I could be. I bet some people who said they saw how sad Dylan was and didn't reach out with kindness felt like maybe they could have done something.

The one thing about people saying they wished they reached out to Eric and Dylan is, in their case they had friends. Regardless of these friends having girlfriends etc. I have to believe that if Dylan felt like he wanted to reach out to someone I doubt someone like Nate or Devon would have told him to go to hell, they would be there for him. Granted it seems like Eric only had Dylan but what about someone like Jen that he chatted with online or even Susan? You'd have to get them to TALK before reaching out. I think a stranger in school showing kindness to them unprovoked may have been met with an "umm.. thanks... whatever" or a shrug.

There was a story in the 11k where no one wanted to be Dylan's science partner and a girl spoke up and said she would be his partner and Dylan got upset and embarrassed. The thing is, I can kind of understand that. If he's very shy he probably didn't want attention called to the fact that he didn't have a partner. Also if she came across as pitying and not more casual like "no worries, let's do this stupid thing" it be awkward.

In the interview with some of the jocks in Lost boys some of them seem to be in denial completely. One of them have a very strained voice when he talks and it just makes me feel like he definitely did or saw some bullying goin' on. He talks just like I do when I am trying not to cry so I'm gonna say he feels some guilt for sure. And the last guy just escapes the question completely and says that because they didn't shoot people in the gym they were not aiming for jocks... as if that somehow means that jocks bullying them wasn't a part of the problem.

Haha and the guy saying "those kids were sick in the head to begin with", I literally laughed out loud.

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Watch from 1 minute in to see what I'm talking about.

I wonder if anyone will ever open up about the tampon incident. I've read somewhere that someone helped Eric or Dylan in the bathroom afterwards, who was that and where did I read that?

At a highschool where something like that can happen I don't believe anyone who says they never saw anything.

LPorter101 wrote:

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I had never seen this before. Damn.

munchkinphone wrote:

I wonder if anyone will ever open up about the tampon incident. I've read somewhere that someone helped Eric or Dylan in the bathroom afterwards, who was that and where did I read that?

At a highschool where something like that can happen I don't believe anyone who says they never saw anything.

That was Chad Laughlin but as I recall he said he helped Dylan cleanup there’s never been any mention of Eric.

Is he the only one that mentioned that this happened? Other than Dylan to his mother.

It’s something that I’ve always wondered about as well

I bet it was Dylan, he'd talk constantly to his friends about his hatred of jocks, more so than Eric. Patrick Ireland has said again and again that they 100% said they would kill anyone in white hats.

Brooks mentioned the ketchup incident also but he mentioned it as squirting ketchup and not the tampons so I guess it was both. John Savage seems familiar with jocks throwing food/skittles at them on other occasions as well.

I saw now that someone named Nathan Vanderau claims someone threw feces on them once. What the actual fuck. How can I not have read that before? I see no source though. Is it in the 11k? I totally want to look into that more. That's fucked up.

munchkinphone wrote:

Brooks mentioned the ketchup incident also but he mentioned it as squirting ketchup and not the tampons so I guess it was both. John Savage seems familiar with jocks throwing food/skittles at them on other occasions as well.

I saw now that someone named Nathan Vanderau claims someone threw feces on them once. What the actual fuck. How can I not have read that before? I see no source though. Is it in the 11k? I totally want to look into that more. That's fucked up.

I am 99% sure Sue mentioned that in her book, but it could have been the bottles that were thrown but Brooks mentioned it in his and Dylan said "you get used to it"

I can't find it in there :/

Where I read it it said human feces so.. I mean.. how did Nathan know that

munchkinphone wrote:

I can't find it in there :/

Where I read it it said human feces so..  I mean.. how did Nathan know that

That’s a good question... I don’t know and how sick do you have to be to throw poop of any kind at someone.

the Nathan Vanderau quote is from the A&E documentary:
Understanding Why.

I always assumed it was horse manure or something that someone collected in the field in a container to throw on the TCM member's cars, as Joe Stair said there was once a feud between the two, though it died out as the senior members left. Nathan is asked only how the TCM members were tret, and not Eric or Dylan so he could have been referring to any of the group.

I've heard of a person called Rocky Hofschneider (is that how you spell it?) mentioned a couple of time here; from what I can gather he doesn't seem like the kind of person to change his ways.

QuestionMark wrote:

I've heard of a person called Rocky Hofschneider (is that how you spell it?) mentioned a couple of time here; from what I can gather he doesn't seem like the kind of person to change his ways.

cva did a video on him

23september wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

I've heard of a person called Rocky Hofschneider (is that how you spell it?) mentioned a couple of time here; from what I can gather he doesn't seem like the kind of person to change his ways.

cva did a video on him

He left out part of the exchange.
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sscc wrote:

23september wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

I've heard of a person called Rocky Hofschneider (is that how you spell it?) mentioned a couple of time here; from what I can gather he doesn't seem like the kind of person to change his ways.

cva did a video on him

He left out part of the exchange.
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thanks!

Thanks for all the replies! I'm kind of delirious with toothache and stoned on pain meds and it's cool to have all these replies and info to come back to. I was wondering more if they felt guilt at the time of the shooting. When E&D walked in they hid their hats - I kind of feel like that means they knew that it was payback time for all of the awful things they had done. Or at least felt they had more chance of survival if they didn't have their hats on. To me that action says that they felt guilt (or at least acknowledged) how they had treated people in the school.
This is going to sound awful, but I used to wonder how they just shot at anyone, or wanted to blow up everyone, including people they were friends with. I didn't understand why they didn't just target jocks or whoever. But then someone I loved died and I watched his grandson get death threats and treated awfully by absolute strangers. It's difficult to explain but I felt this rage and hatred for humanity. It was like, even if a person is not cruel now - they will be eventually when something comes up they don't like and so everyone deserves to die. I did get my faith in humanity back, but I understood how that rage, if mixed with wanting to die myself, had of played out into a shooting it would have been disastrous. It started out as just hating the people who were targeting my deceased (well known) loved one, and then hating the people targeting his grandson and then morphed into "Everyone sucks, I bet anyone is society would act like this if the opportunity arose about something they didn't like."
So, to round up my rant, jocks could totally have been the catalyst for this without being the targets on the day.
I've also often wondered if 'January's indecent' and 'revenge in the commons' was about the tampon/ketchup thing.

Well Brooks said three things happened in January, the tampon thing, the van thing and the freshman ratting Eric and Dylan out for having weed on school property when they didn't.

In the Eric In School video you can hear Eric and his friend talk about some guy telling them to get back in line on lunch during sophomore year and someone saying well he was right since you were only sophomores and then Mike says He was only a freshman! and Eric says the Oh Nevermind.

I wonder if that was the same freshman that did the weedthing or if it was common for freshmen to mess with them. I would find it very degrading to have someone younger than me treat me like that in front of everybody.

munchkinphone wrote:

Well Brooks said three things happened in January, the tampon thing, the van thing and the freshman ratting Eric and Dylan out for having weed on school property when they didn't.

In the Eric In School video you can hear Eric and his friend talk about some guy telling them to get back in line on lunch during sophomore year and someone saying well he was right since you were only sophomores and then Mike says He was only a freshman! and Eric says the Oh Nevermind.

I wonder if that was the same freshman that did the weedthing or if it was common for freshmen to mess with them. I would find it very degrading to have someone younger than me treat me like that in front of everybody.

It may have been, didn't the principal say they had a especially "rowdy" freshman class. It would have to be embarrassing for them to be treated like that by underclassmen. Like Eric wrote "maybe if you treated me more like a senior this could have been prevented, but probably not"

I've heard the ketchup incident was both tampons and just ketchup packets. Tampons seem pretty pre-mediated. I mean you have to obtain them. Take them out of their packages, put ketchup on them and thrown them. Where as packets you can just squirt right from the packet.

I also find it interesting that they boys got so mad at the jocks for getting away with so much crap in school but if we believe all the reports they had some bad behavior (other than the locker break ins and Dylan scratching a locker) that they got away with too. though I take some things some witnesses say with a grain of salt.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I also find it interesting that they boys got so mad at the jocks for getting away with so much crap in school but if we believe all the reports they had some bad behavior (other than the locker break ins and Dylan scratching a locker) that they got away with too.

I've always felt that what Eric and Dylan wanted wasn't to be seen as equals and respected, what they wanted was to be the bullies they hated so much.

I tend to believe that not all bullies are able to identify their own actioms as such. Ive read some stories of how, when they are conftonted, sometimes its a shock, because they didnt realize that they themselves were bullies. This is just a possible explanation and I dont think it's a general rule.

On a side note, theres also a lot of stigma attached to being either bullied or bullying someone and I think a lot of people feel like its hard to be open about that stuff in the aftermath.

Just my two cents.