What if Eric and Dylan were jocks?

If Eric and Dylan were jocks, would they still carry out the massacre?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] That would be hard to say. Their mental issues wouldn't just disappear if they were suddenly turned into jocks, just as I don't believe the girl of their dreams would have been able to just wipe the slate clean either. I will say that their status as outsiders/losers did have an adverse effect on how they felt about themselves and others.

I do feel that Eric would be more caught up in that "I'm at the top of the food chain" mentality. Whether that would have boosted his ego enough and have given him more chances with girls etc is hard to tell. Eric wanted respect, he wanted to be noticed. Being a jock would have somewhat given him what he wanted. So it may have given Eric a different out look on life.

Dylan is a wild card, with the state of his depression and other issues I doubt that being a jock would have canceled out his wish for death. I have said this before, but I can never envision a happy ending for Dylan. Not without some serious, and very intensive therapy and med's. So I just don't think that Dylan becoming the staring Pitcher on the baseball team would have changed his inner dialog much. He likely would have still felt the same.

But say they were both jocks. Dylan is the star pitcher on the baseball team and Eric a star on the soccer team. Hell they may not have even met or became friends. So that would have made the NBK as we know it not a possibility. As Eric and Dylan fed off each other. Many say that NBK would not have happened if the boys were on their own without the other. I actually believe this.

Dylan was suicidal for years but couldn't go through with it on his own at that time. Eric was angry, hurt, lonely, looking for something to make him feel confident in himself. When NBK was brought up it gave them both a means to an end. Dylan would finally have something big enough to force himself to go through with his suicide, and Eric would have something that he could get behind and prove himself with, while in turn proving himself to the people who he felt didn't appreciate him.

I feel like I am rambling, but I hope this makes sense.  

No because they would have got the adulation they wanted.

I would say that if Eric and Dylan were jocks they wouldn't have carried out the massacre because jocks, by their definition, only did what was expected of them and a massacre is not so expected.

They did not want to be a part of the "system" so I feel like if they were, they would not be themselves.

I'm more on the side of ShadowedGoddess. The boys had a mix of reasons they did this and a host of issues that were not being looked at.

Dylans depression seemed to be going on for a long time, even if he didn't hurt his shoulder and made the baseball team he'd still have to deal with his shyness and also he was VERY hard on himself and was very self conscious. There are plenty of cases where someone seems to "have it all" and take their own lives.

From what I understand Eric was a pretty good soccer player, he probably would have done well on the CHS team.

Very good point, if they were jocks they wouldn't be the Eric and Dylan we know of but I still maintain that if everything else was the same, they still would have had issues.

They would still carry out the massacre, although the bullying definitely wouldn't have been one of the factors in that case.

1Mare1 wrote:

They would still carry out the massacre, although the bullying definitely wouldn't have been one of the factors in that case.

I beg to differ in that case. I have seen jocks pick on other jocks. Especially ones from different sports within the school. In my high school the football players and wrestlers would pick on the baseball and basketball teams, while they would pick on the track team/cross country runners etc. Its the trickle down effect, shit mostly runs down hill.

No massacre.. perhaps Dylan just commits suicide and Eric projects his issues by bullying everything in sight.

I can only think of one case where a popular kid gunned down classmates and in that case it was his friends whom he determined had slighted him.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

No massacre..  perhaps Dylan just commits suicide and Eric projects his issues by bullying everything in sight.

I can only think of one case where a popular kid gunned down classmates and in that case it was his friends whom he determined had slighted him.

At first I agreed with this, then I thought "How would Eric handle Dylans suicide?"

I dont think bullying does anything for him in a situation like that.

Go look at all mass murderers, there's one big similarity between all of them
They were all weird looking, none of them were good looking at all (Average at best)
If they were both Chads the shooting wouldn't happen at all, they would have been treated better their entire life and probably wouldn't have mental problems
Eric would have gone American Psycho mode Tbh

I would like to see a picture of you gorgeous.

;)

Screamingophelia wrote:

I would like to see a picture of you gorgeous.

;)

Me?
Sorry bucko, not letting anyone on a school shooting forum see my face (lmao) but I can assure you I'm nowhere as weird looking as mass murderers

I say Dylan would still have been depressed and suicidal. No amount of friends, party invites, or positive attention can cure depression. It takes much more than that and he wasn't willing to express his true feelings with anyone besides Eric.

Who knows about Eric...

I agree Littlelo.

On the surface Dylan did have a great life already. He was smart, family still together, friends, he was involved in plays but depression is a bitch. It's awful and if it is not treated it will destroy you.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Too true.

I'm guessing people's answer to this question regarding Eric depends on whether or not you think he was a psychopath. I think he had an inferiority complex that had a lot to do with his size and appearance. Maybe being a "jock" would have helped him with his self image. Although, he had much deeper issues as well.

BehindZeroProxies wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I would like to see a picture of you gorgeous.

;)

Me?
Sorry bucko, not letting anyone on a school shooting forum see my face (lmao) but I can assure you I'm nowhere as weird looking as mass murderers

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What floats your boat may sink someone else's.

So true ShadowedGoddess

Being jocks and getting the "respect" may have helped but it's simplifying the reasons WAY too much.

Even Brooks named his dang book "No Easy Answers" because well... there isn't any.

BZP Who is Brooks? Since you know so much.

Littlelo wrote:

I'm guessing people's answer to this question regarding Eric depends on whether or not you think he was a psychopath. I think he had an inferiority complex that had a lot to do with his size and appearance. Maybe being a "jock" would have helped him with his self image. Although, he had much deeper issues as well.

I think Eric would have been one hell of a bully if he had been a jock. A lot of people say he was just sometimes mean, and that was him as a outcast. Just imagine him in the top elite of jocks. That is scary thought.

Screamingophelia wrote:

So true ShadowedGoddess

Being jocks and getting the "respect" may have helped but it's simplifying the reasons WAY too much.

Even Brooks named his dang book "No Easy Answers" because well... there isn't any.

BZP Who is Brooks? Since you know so much.

He will answer in 10 or 20 mins when he google him....

DooMRebel wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

So true ShadowedGoddess

Being jocks and getting the "respect" may have helped but it's simplifying the reasons WAY too much.

Even Brooks named his dang book "No Easy Answers" because well... there isn't any.

BZP Who is Brooks? Since you know so much.

He will answer in 10 or 20 mins when he google him....

LOL.

I started re-reading NEA the other day. Just certain parts. How surreal it must be for Brooks to look back now as a man in his 30s and remember his friends who were really just kids. They never grew up...they will always be teenagers.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

I'm guessing people's answer to this question regarding Eric depends on whether or not you think he was a psychopath. I think he had an inferiority complex that had a lot to do with his size and appearance. Maybe being a "jock" would have helped him with his self image. Although, he had much deeper issues as well.

I think Eric would have been one hell of a bully if he had been a jock. A lot of people say he was just sometimes mean, and that was him as a outcast. Just imagine him in the top elite of jocks. That is scary thought.

He would have been really scary. What he lacks in the height and girth he makes up for in his cutting behavior and general assholerly. Scary

Dylan admitted to bullying kids in his journal, so you can't put it past them. However a lot of people say that's just a reaction to being bullied themselves.

Regardless, I don't think E or D being part of a sports team would have necessarily stopped NBK. Eric especially was a hypocrit. I could easily see him being a "jock" himself in some way but still claiming to hate jocks.

Littlelo wrote:

Eric especially was a hypocrit. I could easily see him being a "jock" himself in some way but still claiming to hate jocks.

Exactly! I have always said that Eric was a walking, talking contradiction. Whether he did it on purpose is hard to tell though.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

Eric especially was a hypocrit. I could easily see him being a "jock" himself in some way but still claiming to hate jocks.

Exactly! I have always said that Eric was a walking, talking contradiction. Whether he did it on purpose is hard to tell though.

"Exactly! I have always said that Eric was a walking, talking contradiction. Whether he did it on purpose is hard to tell though."
That's a sign of low intelligence, he couldn't hold an opinion on anything but thought his opinion was superior

Eric and Dylan broke into a van. That's a huge sing of low intelligence.

Both Eric & Dylan played sports (baseball, soccer) for years before 4/20/99.

So, technically, they were jocks pre-4/20/99

I don't think they were unintelligent. They were just "edgy" teens who thought they knew better than everyone else. They also happened to have severe psychological problems that led them to make terrible decisions.

DooMRebel wrote:

Eric and Dylan broke into a van. That's a huge sing of low intelligence.

That was a sign of very poor judgment on their part, not necessarily low intelligence.

sororityalpha wrote:

Both Eric & Dylan played sports (baseball, soccer) for years before 4/20/99.

So, technically, they were jocks during that time.

You could say that. But they weren't the right type of jocks.

Yeah well they played sports for years.

Columbine happened for more reasons than just the jocks.

sororityalpha wrote:

Yeah well they played sports for years.

Columbine happened for more reasons than just the jocks.

I totally agree with you. Columbine is more then just jocks bullying kids. I was just saying that they were not the right type of jocks. They didn't play on any Columbine team.

Also, Brooks brought up a point in Zero Hour that jocks in CHS weren't necessarily JUST athletes. It was more of a class/clique of kids who were treated differently by peers/teachers/etc.

They werent necessarily jocks, but they were into sports from what I gather.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],most of what Ive read, suggests that they were bright. Didnt Dylan enroll into the CHIPS programme?

Norwegian wrote:

They werent necessarily jocks, but they were into sports from what I gather.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],most of what Ive read, suggests that they were bright. Didnt Dylan enroll into the CHIPS programme?

Eric played soccer in his freshmen year or something. Dylan played baseball as a kid. Dylan was made fun of in particular for not being athletic, being uncoordinated plus being lanky. Eric was made fun of for not being athletic, being scrawny and having a chest deformity.

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

They werent necessarily jocks, but they were into sports from what I gather.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],most of what Ive read, suggests that they were bright. Didnt Dylan enroll into the CHIPS programme?

Eric played soccer in his freshmen year or something. Dylan played baseball as a kid. Dylan was made fun of in particular for not being athletic, being uncoordinated plus being lanky. Eric was made fun of for not being athletic, being scrawny and having a chest deformity.

Some people claim to have been making fun of them over sports, or withness them being made fun of but I think many of the 11k statements are murky. Someone said that they had called Dylan 'The stretch', but IDK wether that was all in good fun or in order to be mean

Didn't Eric watch his brother play football? I remember hearing that somewhere

lognifiiskurk wrote:

Didn't Eric watch his brother play football? I remember hearing that somewhere

It's in Brooks Brown's book.

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

They werent necessarily jocks, but they were into sports from what I gather.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],most of what Ive read, suggests that they were bright. Didnt Dylan enroll into the CHIPS programme?

Eric played soccer in his freshmen year or something. Dylan played baseball as a kid. Dylan was made fun of in particular for not being athletic, being uncoordinated plus being lanky. Eric was made fun of for not being athletic, being scrawny and having a chest deformity.

Some people claim to have been making fun of them over sports, or withness them being made fun of but I think many of the 11k statements are murky. Someone said that they had called Dylan 'The stretch', but IDK wether that was all in good fun or in order to be mean

Considering how tall and gangly Dylan was I doubt it was in "good fun". The athletes at the school were giving him a hard time. Eric was terrified of taking his shirt off in front of others.

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

They werent necessarily jocks, but they were into sports from what I gather.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],most of what Ive read, suggests that they were bright. Didnt Dylan enroll into the CHIPS programme?

Eric played soccer in his freshmen year or something. Dylan played baseball as a kid. Dylan was made fun of in particular for not being athletic, being uncoordinated plus being lanky. Eric was made fun of for not being athletic, being scrawny and having a chest deformity.

Some people claim to have been making fun of them over sports, or withness them being made fun of but I think many of the 11k statements are murky. Someone said that they had called Dylan 'The stretch', but IDK wether that was all in good fun or in order to be mean

Considering how tall and gangly Dylan was I doubt it was in "good fun". The athletes at the school were giving him a hard time. Eric was terrified of taking his shirt off in front of others.

Its hard to say, honestly,because Dylan used to Joke around with hes friends a lot. I used to be made fun of as a kid, sometimes, because Ive always been different from other people. But, of course, with friends we always used to have internal jokes w each other. Keep in mind that some sources suggests that Eric was the one being picked on, and not Dylan.

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

They werent necessarily jocks, but they were into sports from what I gather.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],most of what Ive read, suggests that they were bright. Didnt Dylan enroll into the CHIPS programme?

Eric played soccer in his freshmen year or something. Dylan played baseball as a kid. Dylan was made fun of in particular for not being athletic, being uncoordinated plus being lanky. Eric was made fun of for not being athletic, being scrawny and having a chest deformity.

Some people claim to have been making fun of them over sports, or withness them being made fun of but I think many of the 11k statements are murky. Someone said that they had called Dylan 'The stretch', but IDK wether that was all in good fun or in order to be mean

Considering how tall and gangly Dylan was I doubt it was in "good fun". The athletes at the school were giving him a hard time. Eric was terrified of taking his shirt off in front of others.

Its hard to say, honestly,because Dylan used to Joke around with hes friends a lot. I used to be made fun of as a kid, sometimes, because Ive always been different from other people. But, of course, with friends we always used to have internal jokes w each other. Keep in mind that some sources suggests that Eric was the one being picked on, and not Dylan.

If that was the case why did Dylan "hate the jocks" and write about getting revenge against them in his journal? In no world was Dylan friends with the athletes at Columbine.

It's getting to the point your points could be considered trolling now.

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

They werent necessarily jocks, but they were into sports from what I gather.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],most of what Ive read, suggests that they were bright. Didnt Dylan enroll into the CHIPS programme?

Eric played soccer in his freshmen year or something. Dylan played baseball as a kid. Dylan was made fun of in particular for not being athletic, being uncoordinated plus being lanky. Eric was made fun of for not being athletic, being scrawny and having a chest deformity.

Some people claim to have been making fun of them over sports, or withness them being made fun of but I think many of the 11k statements are murky. Someone said that they had called Dylan 'The stretch', but IDK wether that was all in good fun or in order to be mean

Considering how tall and gangly Dylan was I doubt it was in "good fun". The athletes at the school were giving him a hard time. Eric was terrified of taking his shirt off in front of others.

Its hard to say, honestly,because Dylan used to Joke around with hes friends a lot. I used to be made fun of as a kid, sometimes, because Ive always been different from other people. But, of course, with friends we always used to have internal jokes w each other. Keep in mind that some sources suggests that Eric was the one being picked on, and not Dylan.

If that was the case why did Dylan "hate the jocks" and write about getting revenge against them in his journal? In no world was Dylan friends with the athletes at Columbine.

It's getting to the point your points could be considered trolling now.

There Could be a lot of different reasons for why Dylan hated jocks, and harassment was not the only reason. For instance, he expresses jealousy towards jocks because they had easy access to girlfriends. I think its important to not take everything from the 11k at face value. What the 11k seems to suggest, from what I could find, is that someone- we dont know who- called Dylan a 'stretch'. This all seems very murky to me.


This isnt trolling, BTW, and I litary thing you need to look up the word trolling.

The Columbine High School shooting wouldn't have happened. The End!

In all seriousness though, even though they were homicidal towards almost everyone, part of that was driven resentment towards people they saw as "better" than them. Jocks being among those. Envy is usually a very large factor in mass shootings.

Carnifex879 wrote:

The Columbine High School shooting wouldn't have happened. The End!

In all seriousness though, even though they were homicidal towards almost everyone, part of that was driven resentment towards people they saw as "better" than them. Jocks being among those. Envy is usually a very large factor in mass shootings.

Or rhat they actually saw themselves as superior. I think that was part of it. Jocks were a particular hatred, for Klebold, because he resented the privilege that the jocks had.

i think part of dylans hatred for the jocks came from the different experiences him and his brother had at columbine. his brother was a jock and most likely didnt get picked on whereas dylan wasnt a jock and obviously got bullied

lognifiiskurk wrote:

i think part of dylans hatred for the jocks came from the different experiences him and his brother had at columbine. his brother was a jock and most likely didnt get picked on whereas dylan wasnt a jock and obviously got bullied

Yeah I remember that Byron was supposed to be athletic or something(not sure jock is the right word for it). As for Dylan being picked on, there are multiple and conflicting statements.

He said that he wasnt as picked on as Eric to Tom Klebold. He argued that he was too big. Nate said the same thing in an interview. That Eric was the one being bullied/harassed.

Yet, Sue Klebold argued in her book that someone had told her that Dylan and hes friends had trash thrown at them by jocks, and he tried to comfort a new member- 'dont worry about it man. Happens all the time'. IDK wether Dylan tried to hide what hes life was really like at school or wether he was actually bullied.

It should be pointed out, though, that Sue Klebold had no idea what her sons life was like at school. So, most of her references are usually from third hand accounts. That is, friends of Dylan or people in the Community in and around Denve/Littleton.

DooMRebel wrote:

Eric and Dylan broke into a van. That's a huge sing of low intelligence.

Actually, seems more like teenage boys struggling with impulse control issues.

Norwegian wrote:

lognifiiskurk wrote:

i think part of dylans hatred for the jocks came from the different experiences him and his brother had at columbine. his brother was a jock and most likely didnt get picked on whereas dylan wasnt a jock and obviously got bullied

Yeah I remember that Byron was supposed to be athletic or something(not sure jock is the right word for it). As for Dylan being picked on, there are multiple and conflicting statements.

He said that he wasnt as picked on as  Eric to Tom Klebold. He argued that he was too big. Nate said the same thing in an interview. That Eric was the one being bullied/harassed.

Yet, Sue Klebold argued in her book that someone had told her that Dylan and hes friends had trash thrown at them by jocks, and he tried to comfort a new member- 'dont worry about it man. Happens all the time'. IDK wether Dylan tried to hide what hes life was really like at school or wether he was actually bullied.

It should be pointed out, though, that Sue Klebold had no idea what her sons life was like at school. So, most of her references are usually from third hand accounts. That is, friends of Dylan or people in the Community in and around Denve/Littleton.

He was 140 pounds. He was weak and could've easily been shoved around.

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

lognifiiskurk wrote:

i think part of dylans hatred for the jocks came from the different experiences him and his brother had at columbine. his brother was a jock and most likely didnt get picked on whereas dylan wasnt a jock and obviously got bullied

Yeah I remember that Byron was supposed to be athletic or something(not sure jock is the right word for it). As for Dylan being picked on, there are multiple and conflicting statements.

He said that he wasnt as picked on as  Eric to Tom Klebold. He argued that he was too big. Nate said the same thing in an interview. That Eric was the one being bullied/harassed.

Yet, Sue Klebold argued in her book that someone had told her that Dylan and hes friends had trash thrown at them by jocks, and he tried to comfort a new member- 'dont worry about it man. Happens all the time'. IDK wether Dylan tried to hide what hes life was really like at school or wether he was actually bullied.

It should be pointed out, though, that Sue Klebold had no idea what her sons life was like at school. So, most of her references are usually from third hand accounts. That is, friends of Dylan or people in the Community in and around Denve/Littleton.

He was 140 pounds. He was weak and could've easily been shoved around.

All of it is just speculation, anyhow. There are other statements that does seem to suggest that Dylan wasnt nearly as picked on or harassed as much as Eric. Nate Dykeman, for example, one of Dylans best friends.

I cant figure out why Frank Ochberg suggests none of them were bullied, when Sue claims that they had these conversations about bullying with others. I would say, I think her statement, from what Ive read in the two books(Far from the tree, A mothers reckoning), is a bit murky. She suggests that 'Larkins perspective mirrors that of our conversations'. She mentions that a friend- She doesnt say who- suggests that Dylan and a few of their friends had stuff thrown at them from driving vehicles on one occasion. She also suggests that something had happened to Dylans car as if someone sat on it, but its impossible to comprehend wether that was bullying or what it was.

She also argues that the school was a frightning place even if you were popular, and that Dylan was not. In that case it makes sense that they might have been bullied. I Just cant wrap my head around why some of their closest friends, even, argues that they were not and why some experts argue that they were not, also.

As teenage males who wanted to be viewed as "strong", E&D would want to downplay the bullying they were subjected to. It had to be humiliating...and make them feel ashamed. It probably also strengthened their bond.