Dylan IS Columbine!

Dylan Klebold was the Jenga Stick. If you remove him from the equation, the Columbine Massacre never happens. Period.

Eric is not a threat on his own. Dylan master level manipulated him into being his virtual slave rage bot. I think most of Eric’s anger was a product of Dylan slyly pressing just the right buttons. Dylan was very intelligent, morosely so, and apparently addicted to drawing pretty hearts, and writing B grade girly prose. Seriously!

Let’s face it, most of the “Fan base” are female. Trust me in saying, I enjoy females (my wife is one) but they are an Emo based lifeform, logic most likely need not apply. That is a whole other topic, btw... one that I wish we would finally settle

Dylan basically did very little to move the attack along, other than supply a meager amount of money. Eric did all of the heavy lifting and logistics, while Dylan drew pretty hearts, and postulated about an imaginary soulmate.

*** Straight Talk Question*** WTF is up with “needing someone to understand me”? Man answer: Grow a set you pus*y coward!... moving on!

Anyway, Dylan was the ultimate manipulator, Eric was the ultimate pussy follower. So much so that he spent all of his time, and money vs Dylan doing next to nothing. Which, btw explains Dylan’s last minute balls dropping, and finally being himself, ie being a cruel douchebag bully.

This is how I see it. Educate me!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] get in here and lay this guy down with your infinite knowledge.

JayT wrote:

Dylan Klebold was the Jenga Stick. If you remove him from the equation, the Columbine Massacre never happens. Period.

Eric is not a threat on his own. Dylan master level manipulated him into being his virtual slave rage bot. I think most of Eric’s anger was a product of Dylan slyly pressing just the right buttons. Dylan was very intelligent, morosely so, and apparently addicted to drawing pretty hearts, and writing B grade girly prose. Seriously!

...

Anyway, Dylan was the ultimate manipulator, Eric was the ultimate pussy follower. So much so that he spent all of his time, and money vs Dylan doing next to nothing. Which, btw explains Dylan’s last minute balls dropping, and finally being himself, ie being a cruel douchebag bully.

I would not say any of this in exactly the same way that you have put it (because I don't think it's completely accurate) but I agree with the basic gist of what you are saying.

Since the start of my research into Columbine, my impression has been that Eric was desperate for validation or approval of any kind and Dylan was desperate for his freedom. I see Eric as the fascist and Dylan as the anarchist. Eric complained about everyone being the same but I think he would have been a good little Nazi as long as someone was willing to put him in charge of the concentration camp. Eric was full of rage because he wasn't far enough up the hierarchy to have the power and respect that he craved and Dylan was full of rage because the hierarchy was in existence at all and he felt oppressed by it ("the framework of society," etc., etc.).

I view Eric as considering himself to be at the bottom of the totem pole and I view Dylan as considering himself to be five infinite existences beyond the totem pole (not sure if he was supposed to be the left or the right of the totem pole, or possibly whichever direction was diametrically opposite of the halcyon). I think Dylan was more genuinely narcissistic than Eric.

Instead of going through it again, I'll link to a thread I made a long time ago.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Here are some of the most pertinent passages that express my feelings on the subject of this thread, for quick reference.

Quote :

I believe it’s possible that Dylan started talking to Eric about how they were superior to other people and in a sense, godlike. I believe that Eric had deep self-esteem problems and that in Eric’s mind, NBK was going to officially "turn him into a god." He was going to finally prove that he was powerful and ultimately superior, regardless of what anyone else had to say on the matter. On the other hand, I think Dylan already believed he was basically a god, but this wasn’t necessarily a good thing because he suffered for it. Calling himself godlike was an acknowledgment that he was very different from the people around him, for better or worse. NBK was Dylan’s revenge for being a god in a world of zombies.

Quote :

I know the idea of calling yourself a god isn't completely unheard of but it's idiosyncratic enough to make me think that Eric borrowed this idea from Dylan. When comparing dates, you can see that at first, Dylan was depressed and didn't really want to be a god but by the time 1998 comes (right after the van break in), he has accepted it and is saying outright that it makes him superior but society is trying to control him. This is the exact context in which Eric brings up being a god for the first time [a couple of months later].

Quote :

I also think that in addition to the idea of being a god, the idea of "self-awareness" making them superior comes from Dylan and that these are two closely related concepts. Eric seems to adopt this idea too. Maybe I'm over-analyzing or making too many assumptions but I believe that while Eric was the driving force behind the planning for 4/20, Dylan provided the philosophical framework of superiority for Eric to give himself permission to go through with killing others. In my mind, it was more than "Eric wanted to kill and Dylan wanted to die" that drove them into deadly territory and I think it was more of an equal partnership than is usually acknowledged. They just provided different pieces of the puzzle. In war or revolution, the leaders ensure that the moral and philosophical justifications are spelled out to the soldiers because killing and dying is serious business. Everyone needs a cause to believe in and a way to dehumanize the enemy. I think it was similar with Eric and Dylan.

Quote :

I believe Eric was always looking for inspiration, validation and purpose so I also think this is why his relationship with Dylan was crucial to the final outcome. He claimed that individualism was important but it seems that it was in the partnership with Dylan that he found the confidence to rebel in these major ways. Before Dylan he may have tried to get away with breaking the rules but with Dylan his crimes took on the spin of being revolutionary and philosophically justified. Maybe I give Dylan too much credit but I believe it's more likely that Dylan was the true individualist and Eric was perpetually seeking someone to emulate and respect without even realizing it.

So getting back to more of my analogies, in short, I think Eric was the foot soldier and he was going to kill the enemy with his bare hands if he had to but Dylan was the one sitting in the war room figuring out how to motivate the troops to fight in the first place (and coming up from behind to hog the glory when it all played out as planned). Both roles are necessary to pull off a successful war but which one is more important to the process is an interesting question. Personally, I'd agree that it was Dylan.

The only thing I disagree with is that Dylan was a master level manipulator. Eric was constantly looking for direction and Dylan shared his resentments. It wouldn't take much to convince him and I'm not sure that he would even need to be "convinced." I think Dylan just told him how he felt and simply having the knowledge that someone else felt the same way as him would be insanely empowering for Eric. I do think it's possible that Dylan was able to articulate these feelings in a way that made Eric feel downright justified in discarding morality and taking lives and that was what ultimately made the difference between fantasy and reality and why Dylan was so important to the equation.

I could be wrong. Some of Eric's writing sounds like a high school kid who thinks he's an Übermensch and we know that Eric praised Nazism and Nietzsche but maybe without Dylan's idea of "awareness" (and I am convinced that it was Dylan's idea and not Eric's) being proof of superiority and godliness, Eric couldn't have justified murder. And I do think that Eric needed to justify it to himself because at heart, Eric was a rule-follower. He hated the rules but he also loved the validation he got from following the rules well. I think he just needed a way to rationalize being worthy of making his own rules and he was on his way.

Imagine someone being this wrong.

I wanted to comment but SSCC pretty much nailed things

The sweet Dylan and evil Eric narrative has been going on since before Cullen even arrived in Littleton (okay a little hyperbolic but it was early on) and I think it's because of a few different reasons that we've all discussed before. He was born and raised in Littleton, Eric wasn't. Eric pushed everyone away except for Dylan (and to some extent Nate) even Chris was distancing himself from what I understand.The reaction towards Dylan was shock but a lot of people were not surprised that Eric was capable of a massacre.

I don't feel like Dylan was a bundle of kittens who just wanted love and if Marla JUST would have went out with him dammit Columbine would NOT have happened and he would have been the next Steve Jobs. I also don't think he was an evil mastermind who tricked Eric into doing his bidding and even waited for Eric to kill himself just to see him die then he finally took his own life.

I think they both talked about it, their anger fed into each other and I do think Eric did a LOT of the work... You can even tell their priorities through their journals and planners. Eric observed the cafeteria and monitored when the most people would be there, he worked on the bombs. Dylan fretted over his outfit.

QuestionMark wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] get in here and lay this guy down with your infinite knowledge.

BAHAHAHA!

QuestionMark wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] get in here and lay this guy down with your infinite knowledge.

Hehe!

I stand by my assessment of their relationship. Dylan was the alpha, and Eric the windup slave bot. I would also like to add another factism about the male psyche. One that seems to be overlooked in most of the overworked explanations I’ve read here. Males, both boys and men, will sometimes do things for no good reason. Yes, I said that, and yes we really do!

Think Seinfeld, a show about nothing. Men are simple creatures, and simple explanations will often times explain our actions... but some of our actions cannot be explained rationally... or at all

This has to be a troll.

Eric was the alpha, he was the one who was more dedicated to the massacre. I think this because of many reasons such as shots fired (Eric 121 while Dylan 67), weapon choice (Dylan picked two close range weapons while Eric picked one mid range and one close range weapon), number of kills (Eric 8, Dylan 5). Just a personal opinion...

DooMRebel wrote:

Eric was the alpha, he was the one who was more dedicated to the massacre. I think this because of many reasons such as shots fired (Eric 121 while Dylan 67), weapon choice (Dylan picked two close range weapons while Eric picked one mid range and one close range weapon), number of kills (Eric 8, Dylan 5). Just a personal opinion...

Do we know who injured the most people?

I always thought of the relationship between Eric and Dylan like the one in radioactive clothing. Dylan sitting back pulling the strings but Eric doing the groundwork. I mean look at how they behaved at school Eric would go nuts and Dylan would be like get back in the car and he would.

But then I hear things like Eric would tell Dylan I’m your only friend, everyone else betrayed you and im the only one that likes you. So who knows?

Tommy QTR wrote:

This has to be a troll.

Why do I have to be a troll?

Do you feel threatened because my views of their relationship are simplistic in nature?

Screamingophelia wrote:

But then I hear things like Eric would tell Dylan I’m your only friend, everyone else betrayed you and im the only one that likes you. So who knows?

Just because Eric allegedly said that, doesn’t mean that Dylan believed it.

JayT wrote:

Tommy QTR wrote:

This has to be a troll.

Why do I have to be a troll?

Do you feel threatened because my views of their relationship are simplistic in nature?

I don't feel threatened at all.

I think you're delusional in thinking Dylan was this evil monster and Eric was this pure innocent angel who was manipulated and forced into the shooting. The truth is that both of them were lonely, depressed teens who both wanted to commit mass murder.

Thinking one was the devil incarnate and other was a saint is just pure wrong.

Tommy QTR wrote:

JayT wrote:

Tommy QTR wrote:

This has to be a troll.

Why do I have to be a troll?

Do you feel threatened because my views of their relationship are simplistic in nature?

I don't feel threatened at all.

I think you're delusional in thinking Dylan was this evil monster and Eric was this pure innocent angel who was manipulated and forced into the shooting. The truth is that both of them were lonely, depressed teens who both wanted to commit mass murder.

Thinking one was the devil incarnate and other was a saint is just pure wrong.

Eric was no angel. Quite the contrary, he was also a monster... just a manufactured one. Manufactured by Dylan Klebold. I am in no way assigning guilt vs innocence, they are both guilty. Nor am I even suggesting that Eric is no less culpable of his actions.

I am postulating that Dylan is the sole author of the Columbine Massacre. Remove him, and you have no massacre.

Truth is we can speculate all we want, and use certain bits of evidence, journal writings, etc. to try to build up our theory. BUT it will still be JUST a theory, an educated guess at best.  We will never have a real understanding of their relationship.

I have always said that Dylan was a better manipulator. Due to the fact that he hid everything from everyone. All his family and friends, were completely shocked that Dylan was involved.  They just couldn't believe the Dylan they had known was the same one who walked into that school determined to kill others and then himself.

While Eric on the other hand really couldn't hide shit. He was well known to hold grudges, had issues with his temper, etc. Not one person who knew Eric was surprised of his involvement. The only people that really didn't think Eric was capable of things he did were his friends from previous places he had lived before that last move.

Which was leading and which merely following has been argued about for 19 years now, and will likely continue for many more to come.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Which was leading and which merely following has been argued about for 19 years now, and will likely continue for many more to come.

Really the idea that either one of them was leading the other is absurd to me. I guess some people can't comprehend the possibility that two different people could mutually plan and carry out mass murder.

QuestionMark wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Which was leading and which merely following has been argued about for 19 years now, and will likely continue for many more to come.

Really the idea that either one of them was leading the other is absurd to me. I guess some people can't comprehend the possibility that two different people could mutually plan and carry out mass murder.

Agreed. Either way both were involved in the planning, both carried out said plan, both killed. Pretty much end of story.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Which was leading and which merely following has been argued about for 19 years now, and will likely continue for many more to come.

Really the idea that either one of them was leading the other is absurd to me. I guess some people can't comprehend the possibility that two different people could mutually plan and carry out mass murder.

Agreed. Either way both were involved in the planning, both carried out said plan, both killed. Pretty much end of story.

Plus even if Dylan was very depressed which I believe he was he talks about how self reliant he was so he very well could’ve been like Eric this is crazy I’m not doing this! I’m going to the police

I do remember in Sue’s book she said there’s no doubt that Eric was very charming. I don’t understand how charming he was to anyone but adults.

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Which was leading and which merely following has been argued about for 19 years now, and will likely continue for many more to come.

Really the idea that either one of them was leading the other is absurd to me. I guess some people can't comprehend the possibility that two different people could mutually plan and carry out mass murder.

Agreed. Either way both were involved in the planning, both carried out said plan, both killed. Pretty much end of story.

Plus even if Dylan was very depressed which I believe he was he talks about how self reliant he was so he very well could’ve been like Eric this is crazy I’m not doing this! I’m going to the police

I do remember in Sue’s book she said there’s no doubt that Eric was very charming. I don’t understand how charming he was to anyone but adults.

True. Either one could have backed out at any time. Neither did. That says a lot. For whatever reasons they BOTH chose to follow through with the plan, they BOTH set the plan in motion, they BOTH decided to starting shooting after the bombs failed. They BOTH killed innocent people.

Never have I came across a witness statement saying that Eric was forcing Dylan to kill or that Dylan was forcing Eric. They went in together, and later died together. Nothing else about NBK went as planned, but that one thing certainly did.

It's too mean and true for anyone

sscc wrote:

JayT wrote:

Dylan Klebold was the Jenga Stick. If you remove him from the equation, the Columbine Massacre never happens. Period.

Eric is not a threat on his own. Dylan master level manipulated him into being his virtual slave rage bot. I think most of Eric’s anger was a product of Dylan slyly pressing just the right buttons. Dylan was very intelligent, morosely so, and apparently addicted to drawing pretty hearts, and writing B grade girly prose. Seriously!

...

Anyway, Dylan was the ultimate manipulator, Eric was the ultimate pussy follower. So much so that he spent all of his time, and money vs Dylan doing next to nothing. Which, btw explains Dylan’s last minute balls dropping, and finally being himself, ie being a cruel douchebag bully.

I would not say any of this in exactly the same way that you have put it (because I don't think it's completely accurate) but I agree with the basic gist of what you are saying.

Since the start of my research into Columbine, my impression has been that Eric was desperate for validation or approval of any kind and Dylan was desperate for his freedom. I see Eric as the fascist and Dylan as the anarchist. Eric complained about everyone being the same but I think he would have been a good little Nazi as long as someone was willing to put him in charge of the concentration camp. Eric was full of rage because he wasn't far enough up the hierarchy to have the power and respect that he craved and Dylan was full of rage because the hierarchy was in existence at all and he felt oppressed by it ("the framework of society," etc., etc.).

I view Eric as considering himself to be at the bottom of the totem pole and I view Dylan as considering himself to be five infinite existences beyond the totem pole (not sure if he was supposed to be the left or the right of the totem pole, or possibly whichever direction was diametrically opposite of the halcyon). I think Dylan was more genuinely narcissistic than Eric.

Instead of going through it again, I'll link to a thread I made a long time ago.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Here are some of the most pertinent passages that express my feelings on the subject of this thread, for quick reference.

Quote :

I believe it’s possible that Dylan started talking to Eric about how they were superior to other people and in a sense, godlike. I believe that Eric had deep self-esteem problems and that in Eric’s mind, NBK was going to officially "turn him into a god." He was going to finally prove that he was powerful and ultimately superior, regardless of what anyone else had to say on the matter. On the other hand, I think Dylan already believed he was basically a god, but this wasn’t necessarily a good thing because he suffered for it. Calling himself godlike was an acknowledgment that he was very different from the people around him, for better or worse. NBK was Dylan’s revenge for being a god in a world of zombies.

Quote :

I know the idea of calling yourself a god isn't completely unheard of but it's idiosyncratic enough to make me think that Eric borrowed this idea from Dylan. When comparing dates, you can see that at first, Dylan was depressed and didn't really want to be a god but by the time 1998 comes (right after the van break in), he has accepted it and is saying outright that it makes him superior but society is trying to control him. This is the exact context in which Eric brings up being a god for the first time [a couple of months later].

Quote :

I also think that in addition to the idea of being a god, the idea of "self-awareness" making them superior comes from Dylan and that these are two closely related concepts. Eric seems to adopt this idea too. Maybe I'm over-analyzing or making too many assumptions but I believe that while Eric was the driving force behind the planning for 4/20, Dylan provided the philosophical framework of superiority for Eric to give himself permission to go through with killing others. In my mind, it was more than "Eric wanted to kill and Dylan wanted to die" that drove them into deadly territory and I think it was more of an equal partnership than is usually acknowledged. They just provided different pieces of the puzzle. In war or revolution, the leaders ensure that the moral and philosophical justifications are spelled out to the soldiers because killing and dying is serious business. Everyone needs a cause to believe in and a way to dehumanize the enemy. I think it was similar with Eric and Dylan.

Quote :

I believe Eric was always looking for inspiration, validation and purpose so I also think this is why his relationship with Dylan was crucial to the final outcome. He claimed that individualism was important but it seems that it was in the partnership with Dylan that he found the confidence to rebel in these major ways. Before Dylan he may have tried to get away with breaking the rules but with Dylan his crimes took on the spin of being revolutionary and philosophically justified. Maybe I give Dylan too much credit but I believe it's more likely that Dylan was the true individualist and Eric was perpetually seeking someone to emulate and respect without even realizing it.

So getting back to more of my analogies, in short, I think Eric was the foot soldier and he was going to kill the enemy with his bare hands if he had to but Dylan was the one sitting in the war room figuring out how to motivate the troops to fight in the first place (and coming up from behind to hog the glory when it all played out as planned). Both roles are necessary to pull off a successful war but which one is more important to the process is an interesting question. Personally, I'd agree that it was Dylan.

The only thing I disagree with is that Dylan was a master level manipulator. Eric was constantly looking for direction and Dylan shared his resentments. It wouldn't take much to convince him and I'm not sure that he would even need to be "convinced." I think Dylan just told him how he felt and simply having the knowledge that someone else felt the same way as him would be insanely empowering for Eric. I do think it's possible that Dylan was able to articulate these feelings in a way that made Eric feel downright justified in discarding morality and taking lives and that was what ultimately made the difference between fantasy and reality and why Dylan was so important to the equation.

I could be wrong. Some of Eric's writing sounds like a high school kid who thinks he's an Übermensch and we know that Eric praised Nazism and Nietzsche but maybe without Dylan's idea of "awareness" (and I am convinced that it was Dylan's idea and not Eric's) being proof of superiority and godliness, Eric couldn't have justified murder. And I do think that Eric needed to justify it to himself because at heart, Eric was a rule-follower. He hated the rules but he also loved the validation he got from following the rules well. I think he just needed a way to rationalize being worthy of making his own rules and he was on his way.

Thread is so off. Very off. There has been many documented people in school that said Dylan was a follower. If Dylan was so hell bent on destruction he would have went on NBK without Eric long ago. You guys need to wake up. Eric was the first one to wake up on that day, Eric was the one who planned everything, Eric was the one who fired more. Even in the basement tape videos many have said Eric had way more of an influence on Dylan. Without Eric, there wouldnt have been Columbine.

Sane One wrote:

Thread is so off. Very off. There has been many documented people in school that said Dylan was a follower. If Dylan was so hell bent on destruction he would have went on NBK without Eric long ago. You guys need to wake up. Eric was the first one to wake up on that day, Eric was the one who planned everything, Eric was the one who fired more. Even in the basement tape videos many have said Eric had way more of an influence on Dylan. Without Eric, there wouldnt have been Columbine.

I think the reason people are hesitant to agree with this is because so many people - rightly or wrongly, not my place to judge - have a massive ax to grind against Cullen, and since he agrees with the  theory that Eric was the leader of the two a lot of people who don't like Cullen are predisposed towards disagreeing with whatever he says. 

Now mind you this isn't always the case - I myself disagree with the leader-follower theory and I don't really care that much about Cullen either way.

Both of them are equally culpable, the two had a symbiotic relationship. Without Eric doing the legwork, Columbine never happens. Without Dylan's simmering aggression validating Eric's own rage, Columbine never happens. It was the perfect storm of circumstances.