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 Twenty years of Columbine

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Screamingophelia
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Apr 09, 2019 7:19 am

20 years ago today, Eric turned 18. I’m not sure if it was the exact day but he, Dylan, Robyn and a few others went out for his birthday.

Kind of eerie thinking of what could have been going through his mind. Knowing it was his last birthday and knowing that in 11 days he and Dylan were going to do the unthinkable.

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Apr 09, 2019 8:32 am

If Eric joined the marines who knows maybe he would have become the next Tim McVeigh.
His mom did this for his own good.
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Apr 09, 2019 10:42 am

Isn’t that a scary thought!

If Columbine didn’t happen something even more disastrous could have Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Apr 09, 2019 11:00 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Will you be posting the events as they happened on the anniversary again this year? In Littleton time? I hope so.

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Apr 09, 2019 11:27 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Isn’t that a scary thought!

If Columbine didn’t happen something even more disastrous could have Sad

I know we think of the "more disastrous" thing in regards to Eric, but man, I'd really hate to see how far down the drain Dylan would've gone had he went to college.

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Apr 09, 2019 11:34 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Isn’t that a scary thought!

If Columbine didn’t happen something even more disastrous could have Sad

I know we think of the "more disastrous" thing in regards to Eric, but man, I'd really hate to see how far down the drain Dylan would've gone had he went to college.

I agree with you on that.

I feel like from what we know now, Dylan in many ways was as troubled if not more Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Apr 09, 2019 11:59 am

Maybe if Eric could have weaned properly off the Luvox, he could have been helped. I think the Luvox gave him overwhelming, violent obsessive thoughts and compulsions. One article I read said that giving Eric the Luvox was like adding gasoline to a fire. (appropriate analogy, btw) If the medicine had been discontinued and he had seen a better psychologist for his temper and self-esteem issues, there could have been hope.

Dylan, on the other hand, probably NEEDED meds. He was so depressed it was almost hopeless. In fact, much of his journal writings don't even make sense to me. His thoughts are so disorganized. There had to be something more than just depression going on there.
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Apr 09, 2019 1:08 pm

Had Eric used diff meds or gone to a diff dr I don't think there would be much difference past a certain point. In order to get help you need to want it. Eric lying his way thru therapy pretty much proves to me he didn't want the help.

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Apr 09, 2019 9:29 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Had Eric used diff meds or gone to a diff dr I don't think there would be much difference past a certain point.  In order to get help you need to want it.  Eric lying his way thru therapy pretty much proves to me he didn't want the help.

How do we know he lied his way through therapy? Albert didn't release his files.
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 10, 2019 12:26 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Will you be posting the events as they happened on the anniversary again this year? In Littleton time? I hope so.

Probably. The 20th is a Saturday this year, so I shouldn't be too busy.

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 10, 2019 1:07 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Had Eric used diff meds or gone to a diff dr I don't think there would be much difference past a certain point.  In order to get help you need to want it.  Eric lying his way thru therapy pretty much proves to me he didn't want the help.

How do we know he lied his way through therapy? Albert didn't release his files.

It's not hard to guess. They both passed their diversion program with flying colors. Eric penned a very sincere sounding apology letter to the guy they ripped off, then showed a completely different side in his personal journal.

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 10, 2019 7:35 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

It's not hard to guess. They both passed their diversion program with flying colors. Eric penned a very sincere sounding apology letter to the guy they ripped off, then showed a completely different side in his personal journal.

I disagree that because his behavior wasn't changing means that he was lying his way through therapy. We don't know what went on during his sessions with Dr. Albert. I don't think he said, "Hey, doc, I'm planning to bomb my school and shoot the survivors" but he did mention in his journal something to the effect that his doctor wanted to put him on medications to stop him from thinking about so many things and to stop getting angry. To me, that sounds like he was telling Albert something about his emotional state.
And the fact that Albert refused to release his records, even to the Harrises, is really suspicious to me. With the exception of April 9th- 20th, 1999, Eric was a minor when he was being treated by Harris, so his parents should have been able to access those notes, particularly after his death. What purpose does hiding those records serve?

I'm not saying I believe Eric poured his heart out and was crying for help. I'm saying, we just don't have the information to make a judgement either way.
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 10, 2019 8:30 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

It's not hard to guess. They both passed their diversion program with flying colors. Eric penned a very sincere sounding apology letter to the guy they ripped off, then showed a completely different side in his personal journal.

I disagree that because his behavior wasn't changing means that he was lying his way through therapy. We don't know what went on during his sessions with Dr. Albert. I don't think he said, "Hey, doc, I'm planning to bomb my school and shoot the survivors" but he did mention in his journal something to the effect that his doctor wanted to put him on medications to stop him from thinking about so many things and to stop getting angry. To me, that sounds like he was telling Albert something about his emotional state.
And the fact that Albert refused to release his records, even to the Harrises, is really suspicious to me. With the exception of April 9th- 20th, 1999, Eric was a minor when he was being treated by Harris, so his parents should have been able to access those notes, particularly after his death. What purpose does hiding those records serve?

I'm not saying I believe Eric poured his heart out and was crying for help. I'm saying, we just don't have the information to make a judgement either way.

Of course it is all my opinion. I do believe at first Eric wanted help. But I think he didn't feel it was working. I don't think he sat there and told the truth once late 98 hit at all. I think he said whatever he felt he had to say so that no one would suspect anything was going on. I base this on the general way Eric lived his life in his own words

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 10, 2019 10:07 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

And the fact that Albert refused to release his records, even to the Harrises, is really suspicious to me.

I was thinking that Albert might not have wanted to release these records because they might show negligence on his part. Remember, Mrs. Harris stated that Dr. Albert told her that Eric's problems were routine, and he treated him for OCD, and possibly for depression, although Zoloft is mostly used to treat anxiety disorders. I'm not sure why he missed Eric's complaints about his intense rage, which indicate to me that he was suffering from either borderline personality disorder, or if homicidal ideation came up in the assessment, psychopathology (i.e., antisocial personality disorder). If Brooks' is right, Dr. Albert misdiagnosed Eric, and I believe he did.
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 10, 2019 10:20 am

Of course that is assuming Eric wasn't pulling one over Dr. Albert's eyes. You know, like he did with every single other person who he knew. Can't properly diagnose someone who is filling you full of bullshit

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 10, 2019 10:21 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

And the fact that Albert refused to release his records, even to the Harrises, is really suspicious to me.

I was thinking that Albert might not have wanted to release these records because they might show negligence on his part. Remember, Mrs. Harris stated that Dr. Albert told her that Eric's problems were routine, and he treated him for OCD, and possibly for depression, although Zoloft is mostly used to treat anxiety disorders. I'm not sure why he missed Eric's complaints about his intense rage, which indicate to me that he was suffering from either borderline personality disorder, or if homicidal ideation came up in the assessment, psychopathology (i.e., antisocial personality disorder). If Brooks' is right, Dr. Albert misdiagnosed Eric, and I believe he did.

This was my initial thought as well. That Albert just did not want to receive any blame for "failing" to help Eric.

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 10, 2019 11:06 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I was thinking that Albert might not have wanted to release these records because they might show negligence on his part. Remember, Mrs. Harris stated that Dr. Albert told her that Eric's problems were routine, and he treated him for OCD, and possibly for depression, although Zoloft is mostly used to treat anxiety disorders. I'm not sure why he missed Eric's complaints about his intense rage, which indicate to me that he was suffering from either borderline personality disorder, or if homicidal ideation came up in the assessment, psychopathology (i.e., antisocial personality disorder). If Brooks' is right, Dr. Albert misdiagnosed Eric, and I believe he did.

I agree. When Eric interviewed with diversion, Eric himself checked boxes on his evaluation indicating that he had issues with things like Anxiety, Anger, Jealousy, Suspiciousness, Temper. He even checked the box for Homicidal Thoughts. During the same interview, his parents mentioned that Eric was having issues with anger, depression, and suicidal thoughts. So he wasn't exactly hiding those things.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Of course that is assuming Eric wasn't pulling one over Dr. Albert's eyes. You know, like he did with every single other person who he knew. Can't properly diagnose someone who is filling you full of bullshit

Then Albert's records would show that, right? He could say, "Look, this is what information the kid was giving me, this is what I had to work with." If Eric was lying to him and all those lies were documented in Eric's records, then no one could find fault with Albert. The fact that he won't release those records suggests that maybe Eric did say some things that should have been taken more seriously and Albert doesn't want to be held responsible for that.
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 10, 2019 1:13 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I was thinking that Albert might not have wanted to release these records because they might show negligence on his part. Remember, Mrs. Harris stated that Dr. Albert told her that Eric's problems were routine, and he treated him for OCD, and possibly for depression, although Zoloft is mostly used to treat anxiety disorders. I'm not sure why he missed Eric's complaints about his intense rage, which indicate to me that he was suffering from either borderline personality disorder, or if homicidal ideation came up in the assessment, psychopathology (i.e., antisocial personality disorder). If Brooks' is right, Dr. Albert misdiagnosed Eric, and I believe he did.

I agree. When Eric interviewed with diversion, Eric himself checked boxes on his evaluation indicating that he had issues with things like Anxiety, Anger, Jealousy, Suspiciousness, Temper. He even checked the box for Homicidal Thoughts. During the same interview, his parents mentioned that Eric was having issues with anger, depression, and suicidal thoughts. So he wasn't exactly hiding those things.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Of course that is assuming Eric wasn't pulling one over Dr. Albert's eyes. You know, like he did with every single other person who he knew. Can't properly diagnose someone who is filling you full of bullshit

Then Albert's records would show that, right? He could say, "Look, this is what information the kid was giving me, this is what I had to work with." If Eric was lying to him and all those lies were documented in Eric's records, then no one could find fault with Albert. The fact that he won't release those records suggests that maybe Eric did say some things that should have been taken more seriously and Albert doesn't want to be held responsible for that.

Devils advocate but do you think it could be possible that his notes would mention nothing of Eric being scary or dangerous and that he must have missed everything or not asked the right questions etc? Showing that he is a poor therapist who couldn't diagnose a "psychopath" who was right under his nose?

IDK I go back and forth with what I think. I do think Eric wanted help at first thus the Luvox but I also think by the end of his life he was lying to Albert as well as everyone else

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 10, 2019 4:07 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Devils advocate but do you think it could be possible that his notes would mention nothing of Eric being scary or dangerous and that he must have missed everything or not asked the right questions etc?  Showing that he is a poor therapist who couldn't diagnose a "psychopath" who was right under his nose?

Psychopathy is a very rare personality disorder and even trained professionals often misdiagnose it. Psychopaths are rarely, if ever, clinically depressed, which is primary reason most individuals see a psychologist. Psychopaths are usually discovered in the prison population, which explains why so many practitioners don't see many psychopaths in the wild. It's obvious to me that Dr. Albert knew he misdiagnosed Eric because he reportedly refused to release his notes, or talk to journalists, stating that "it would hurt many people."  However, OCD patients have constant obtrusive homicidal thoughts that the patient believes isn't rational. But, if I were Dr. Albert, I would ask a few questions about it because this form of ideation is indication of a more serious, underlying disorder.

From what I've gathered, Eric's brief angry outbursts were the primary reasons why his parents took him to see a psychologist. Mrs. Harris states that Eric didn't exhibit these behaviors at home but at school and work. Also, Eric stated that he wasn't home all that much. He was either at school or work, indicating that his parents might not have known about his homicidal/suicidal ideation (If Eric wasn't at home all day, how would Mrs. Harris know Eric had suicidal thoughts?)
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 10, 2019 5:43 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

From what I've gathered, Eric's brief angry outbursts were the primary reasons why his parents took him to see a psychologist. Mrs. Harris states that Eric didn't exhibit these behaviors at home but at school and work. Also, Eric stated that he wasn't home all that much. He was either at school or work, indicating that his parents might not have known about his homicidal/suicidal ideation (If Eric wasn't at home all day, how would Mrs. Harris know Eric had suicidal thoughts?)

They made the appointment for the psychologist immediately after the van break in arrest. It doesn't seem that they thought he really had those kinds of issues prior to that, based upon what's in Wayne Harris's journal.
In his diversion interview in the Mental Health section they checked that Eric was dealing with anger, depression, and suicidal thoughts.
They wrote, "After this incident occurred, Eric expressed his feelings concerning the above items to a psychologist. The doctor recommended antidepressant medication which seems to have helped. His mood is more upbeat."
Given how fast they got him into therapy (the arrest was January 31st and he had his first appointment with Albert like 2 weeks later), I always assumed that it was either done for legal protection (i.e., an indicator to the courts that he had issues he was working on in hopes the courts would go easier on him) or because the Harris' thought he lost his damn mind when he broke the law.
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 10, 2019 7:40 pm

Talking of Dr. Albert
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 10, 2019 8:31 pm

I have often wondered if Eric ever genuinely wanted to join the Marines or if he felt pressure from his father and family?

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Apr 11, 2019 3:45 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I would say 50/50.
He mentioned in his journal that he felt he didn't lived up his parents expectations.
That tells something...
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Apr 11, 2019 8:49 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I was thinking that Albert might not have wanted to release these records because they might show negligence on his part. Remember, Mrs. Harris stated that Dr. Albert told her that Eric's problems were routine, and he treated him for OCD, and possibly for depression, although Zoloft is mostly used to treat anxiety disorders. I'm not sure why he missed Eric's complaints about his intense rage, which indicate to me that he was suffering from either borderline personality disorder, or if homicidal ideation came up in the assessment, psychopathology (i.e., antisocial personality disorder). If Brooks' is right, Dr. Albert misdiagnosed Eric, and I believe he did.

I agree. When Eric interviewed with diversion, Eric himself checked boxes on his evaluation indicating that he had issues with things like Anxiety, Anger, Jealousy, Suspiciousness, Temper. He even checked the box for Homicidal Thoughts. During the same interview, his parents mentioned that Eric was having issues with anger, depression, and suicidal thoughts. So he wasn't exactly hiding those things.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Of course that is assuming Eric wasn't pulling one over Dr. Albert's eyes. You know, like he did with every single other person who he knew. Can't properly diagnose someone who is filling you full of bullshit

Then Albert's records would show that, right? He could say, "Look, this is what information the kid was giving me, this is what I had to work with." If Eric was lying to him and all those lies were documented in Eric's records, then no one could find fault with Albert. The fact that he won't release those records suggests that maybe Eric did say some things that should have been taken more seriously and Albert doesn't want to be held responsible for that.

Not suggesting this is why, but at least in my country there's very strict confidentiality rules about sharing information obtained through the process of psychological evaluation.
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Apr 11, 2019 1:56 pm

I really hate that the day it happened was 4/20 because so many people think E&D chose that date because of weed or hitler. I guess it doesn't matter but I just think that is another false claim that most people thinks is true.
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Apr 11, 2019 1:57 pm

I agree.

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Apr 11, 2019 9:27 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Not suggesting this is why, but at least in my country there's very strict confidentiality rules about sharing information obtained through the process of psychological evaluation.

It's the same in the US, as well, though I think may vary a bit in different states. But the fact that Eric was under the age of 18 for the majority (all but the last 2 weeks, if he even went during that time) of his therapy makes a difference.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] can probably address the specifics of the legal issues.


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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Apr 12, 2019 7:43 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Not suggesting this is why, but at least in my country there's very strict confidentiality rules about sharing information obtained through the process of psychological evaluation.

It's the same in the US, as well, though I think may vary a bit in different states. But the fact that Eric was under the age of 18 for the majority (all but the last 2 weeks, if he even went during that time) of his therapy makes a difference.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] can probably address the specifics of the legal issues.


It's the same in the United States. In our country, we have HIPAA laws that protect confidentiality/privilege, which survives the patient's death. However, because Eric was a minor, and he was having homicidal ideation, it's ideal to inform the parents. That's usually the exception to the confidentiality rule. I am surprised that Eric's doctor never mentioned these thoughts to his parents because that's what a responsible practitioner does. When Eric's parents tried to obtain Dr. Albert's notes, I wasn't surprised. I imagine that's because he's trying to avoid liability by claiming privilege. However, according to state law, Eric's parents, if they legal beneficiaries or personal representatives could obtain those medical records. I don't know much about Colorado's laws, but that's how it works here in California.
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Apr 13, 2019 2:16 pm

I don't think the public should get to see Eric's mental health records, as that is a violation of the law and confidentiality, but his parents should damned well get to see them.
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Apr 13, 2019 3:43 pm

Technically The public didn’t have any right to see the diversion files either but we got to see them. It’s pretty interesting. I don’t know if either family fought for them to be barred from being released.

The klebolds tried  to stop Dylan’s autopsy from being released for a couple of years. Eric’s was released in 1999/early 2000 IIRC and Dylan’s was in 2001 or so.

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Apr 13, 2019 8:19 pm

mamaStardust wrote:
I don't think the public should get to see Eric's mental health records, as that is a violation of the law and confidentiality, but his parents should damned well get to see them.

No, I don't think so, either. Eric's parents can only see them if they are his legal representatives. However, I do think Dr. Albert should have told Mr. and Mrs. Harris about Eric's homicidal ideation, or at least told them what he was treating him for. It's my responsibility to keep the parents on the same page if my client says something untoward about another person, or engages in a criminal act. There's every indication that Dr. Albert mislead the Harrises, or dismissed their concerns about Eric's erratic behavior. If I remember correctly, Mrs. Harris stated that Dr. Albert brushed off her concerns about Eric's trench coat, calling it just a "duster." That's indication that Dr. Albert and the Harrises weren't on the same page. Dr. Albert thought Eric's problems routine, while the Harrises, or at least Mrs. Harris, thought otherwise.
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Apr 14, 2019 8:45 am

Even if he had a mental illness and it was correctly diagnosed, does not mean that the medicine could have helped him. It takes a looong looong time to help patients with mental disorders. I have one and I was put on so many drugs and I am not even sure that the ones I am taking now actually help me. I was about 15 when I was first prescribed medicine for my mental disorder and I am 23 now and heck, I am still questioning my diagnosis... The process of finding the right drug is trail and error. To diagnose someone with a mental illness is a difficult matter. He might as well had borderline personality disorder and you can not diagnose someone with it until they are adults. Many teenagers have traits of BPD and they go away after they turn adults. Also, medicine does not really work for BPD, they need therapy. By the way, if you are a female with autism, they often misdiagnose you because autism in girls is different. Same with BPD - mostly females are diagnosed with it and males get bipolar or something instead because doctors are not aware how BPD looks in males.
And if he had a personality disorder it would have taken him years and years to kinda-ish fix it. Personality disorders are awful, you can't just give someone some pills and cure them. Nor anything else, but personality disorders are the hardest to fix. You try to change the personality of a person not to alter how he/she thinks, not to alter chemistry in their brain.

Also, how often do you think doctors hear teenagers say they have suicidal and homicidal thoughts? Honestly, that happens quite often. And usually those people do not do anything. You can't call the police everytime someone says ''sometimes I think about killing people''. Intrusive thoughts is a very common symptom for many mental illnesses. I wouldn't say that they are alarming - what's alarming is his pile of guns and bombs and his clear plans in the journals/notes. There's a line between thoughts and plans. I don't think Eric ever said that he has plans, only thoughts.


I am not saying that Dr. Albert is a good doctor, but mental illnesses are very complex. Especially if you are under 18. Especially if you don't know the person very long.

Also I don't think his records should be released. Heck, I would love to see them but it's not how it should work. A doctor is like a priest - whatever you say to him/her, stays only between them.


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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Apr 14, 2019 11:14 am

In less than one week it will be the 20th anniversary.

In 3 days it will be April 17, which was prom Sad

It's pretty surreal and there are so many remembrance events in the area.

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Apr 14, 2019 12:39 pm

In 3 days April 17th prom
After 3days Columbine happened.

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Apr 14, 2019 11:47 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
In less than one week it will be the 20th anniversary.

In 3 days it will be April 17, which was prom Sad

It's pretty surreal and there are so many remembrance events in the area.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
In 3 days April 17th prom
After 3days Columbine happened.


April 17th is also the same day the Khmer Rogue took power in Cambodia, where they proceeded to cause one of the worst genocides since the Holocaust, killing over two million people and devastating the country for decades.

Man, what is it with horrible things and the month of April? Must be the spring air.

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Apr 14, 2019 11:51 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
In less than one week it will be the 20th anniversary.

In 3 days it will be April 17, which was prom Sad

It's pretty surreal and there are so many remembrance events in the area.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
In 3 days April 17th  prom
After 3days  Columbine happened.


April 17th is also the same day the Khmer Rogue took power in Cambodia, where they proceeded to cause one of the worst genocides since the Holocaust, killing over two million people and devastating the country for decades.

Man, what is it with horrible things and the month of April? Must be the spring air.

L.A. riots = April 29, 1992
Waco = April 19, 1993
Oklahoma City = April 19, 1995
Iraq war = March/April 2003
Virginia Tech = April 16, 2007
Binghamton = April 3, 2009
Deepwater Horizon = April 20, 2010
Boston Marathon = April 15, 2013

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Apr 14, 2019 11:56 pm

Today, April 14, the Titanic sank.
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 15, 2019 6:07 am

"April is the cruellest month" - T.S. Eliot
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 15, 2019 1:58 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
In less than one week it will be the 20th anniversary.

In 3 days it will be April 17, which was prom Sad

It's pretty surreal and there are so many remembrance events in the area.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
In 3 days April 17th  prom
After 3days  Columbine happened.


April 17th is also the same day the Khmer Rogue took power in Cambodia, where they proceeded to cause one of the worst genocides since the Holocaust, killing over two million people and devastating the country for decades.

Man, what is it with horrible things and the month of April? Must be the spring air.

L.A. riots = April 29, 1992
Waco = April 19, 1993
Oklahoma City = April 19, 1995
Iraq war = March/April 2003
Virginia Tech = April 16, 2007
Binghamton = April 3, 2009
Deepwater Horizon = April 20, 2010
Boston Marathon = April 15, 2013

Plus the Erfurt massacre happened on April 26th, the Port Arthur massacre happened from the 28th to the 29th, Mitchell Henderson shot himself on the 20th, man, what a crazy month.

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 15, 2019 3:28 pm

Damn its crazy how many brutal events happened in april
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 15, 2019 4:04 pm

April cursed month
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 15, 2019 8:16 pm

We missed this on April 3.


Months have passed. It’s the first Friday night in the final month. Much shit has happened. Vodka has a Tec 9, we test fired all of our babies, we have 6 time clocks ready, 39 crickets [small bombs] 24 pipe bombs, and the napalm is under construction. Right now I’m trying to get fucked and trying to finish off these time bombs. NBK came quick, why the fuck can’t I get any? I mean, I’m nice and considerate and all that shit, but nooooo. I think I try too hard. But I kinda need to, considering NBK is closing in. The amount of dramatic irony and foreshadowing is fucking amazing. Everything I see and hear I incorporate into NBK somehow. Either bombs, clocks, guns, napalm, killing people, any and everything finds some tie to it. Feels like a goddamn movie sometimes. I wanna try to put some mines and trip bombs around this town too maybe. Get a few extra frags25 on the scoreboard. I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don’t fucking say “well that’s your fault” because it isn’t, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no no don’t let the weird looking Eric KID come along, ooh fucking nooo.

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 15, 2019 8:24 pm

20 years ago it was a Thursday. The 16th was the night Eric slept over and they recorded the second to the last basement tape. Dylan’s tux was hanging up on his door.

It was almost the end of the last normal week so many people would have Sad

Trying to be as eloquent as LPorter101

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 15, 2019 10:43 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
20 years ago it was a Thursday. The 16th was the night Eric slept over and they recorded the second to the last basement tape. Dylan’s tux was hanging up on his door.

It was almost the end of the last normal week so many people would have Sad

Trying to be as eloquent as LPorter101

I'm too lazy to be eloquent tonight...

Copypasta from acolumbinesite:

Wednesday, April 14, 1999

Staff Sergeant Gonzales met Eric at Blackjack Pizza to confirm his appointment for the home visit.

Thursday, April 15, 1999

Staff Sergeant Mark Gonzales met Eric Harris and his father at the Harris residence. During a casual conversation between Gonzales and Dwayne Harris about Eric's future with the military Eric's mother came downstairs and joined the conversation. She asked if Eric would still be eligible if he were taking an anti-depressant. She then showed the Staff Sergeant one of Eric's prescription bottles and he copied down the name of the drug prescribed: Luvox®️. Gonzales said that he would check on the eligibility status and would call them back.

Friday, April 16, 1999

According to the Columbine Report, Staff Sergeant Gonzales left a message on voicemail at the Harris residence for Eric Harris to call him but never received a call back. Gonzales said that he had no further contact with Harris and was therefore unable to inform him that he would not be eligible for entry into the Marines.

Saturday, April 17, 1999 - day

Sean Kennedy, a 12 year old neighbor who sometimes played roller hockey with Eric Harris, said that two or three months prior to the shootings Eric "just became a bat -- He stayed inside his garage all the time." This weekend in particular neighbors Debbie Wilde and her husband, who lived 2 doors down from the Harrises, noticed there were sounds of breaking glass and power saws from the garage.(9) They had seen Dylan Klebold's BMW at the Harris house before and told authorities they had noticed it there on Saturday the 17th. Police are certain now the boys were making the shrapnel used in the construction of their pipe bombs.

Saturday, April 17, 1999 - night

Columbine prom night. Posters around the school announced the prom: "It's coming! 4/17/99" On several posters the number '17' had been crossed out and replaced with a '20'. Twelve kids, including Dylan Klebold and Nate Dykeman, went by limosine together to the prom.(3) Dylan's date for the night was Robyn Anderson, who boasted to another male friend shortly before the prom: "I convinced my friend Dylan, who hates dances, jocks and has never had a date let alone a girlfriend to go with me! I am either really cute or just really persuasive!"

Nate said Dylan's attitude that night was normal, like any guy going to his senior prom's attitude might be. Everything went "perfect" -- friends described Dylan as seeming very upbeat and was making plans to stay in touch with folks after leaving for college. Nate said that Dylan talked happily about a positive future in Arizona attending college; that he sounded like that was what he really planned to do with his life.

Rachel Scott - who would just days later become a victim in the shootings - attended the prom with Nick Baumgart.

Eric Harris didn't have a date that night, though not for lack of trying. People who knew him said he asked a few different girls, all of whom turned him down. He ended up making plans with Susan DeWitt (a girl he'd talked to the night before at Blackjack Pizza).(3) She went to his house where they watched movies. Eric invited her to go to the after-prom party but she declined. She went home and Eric met his friends at the party, still alone.

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 15, 2019 10:45 pm

From Susan Klebold's book:

Friday, April 16, 1999

Four days before the tragedy, I saw the Toulouse-Lautrec exhibit with a friend at the Denver Art Museum, while Tom and Dylan studied a map of the University of Arizona to find the dorm closest to the center of campus and tried to figure out which rooms were the largest. After they were through, Dylan picked up his tuxedo. He hung the bag from his closet door to keep the contents from wrinkling. We would see it, later, in the background of one of the Basement Tapes.

Tom and I both noticed Dylan was a little agitated that week. I was sure he was nervous about the prom. Robyn was flying back to Denver on Saturday afternoon after an out-of-state church function, and her flight time would cut it close. Dylan had to choose flowers and work out the logistics of dinner and transportation; the tasks were, to say the least, out of his area of expertise.

That Friday, Dylan asked if Eric could sleep over. We agreed. The guest room hadn’t been cleaned since Nate had spent the night a couple of weeks earlier, and our sick cat Rocky had thrown up in there, so Tom and I wrestled a vacuum cleaner up the stairs and asked Dylan to clean the room and bathroom before his friend arrived.

Dylan was irritated we were making such a big deal about cleaning; he told us Eric didn’t care if the room was clean or not. I overrode his protests. "Eric may not care, but we do. If you clean your room, Dad will do the bathroom and I’ll do the guest room. It’ll go fast if we all help." A few minutes later, Dylan left the house, saying he had a quick errand to run. I rolled my eyes, believing he was procrastinating; more likely, he was removing something he did not want us to see. After Dylan returned, we poked our heads into his room intermittently to check his progress. Neither one of us saw anything unusual.

I’d already gone to bed when Eric arrived about 10:00 p.m. He had brought a large duffel bag, so heavy he could hardly lift it, and he was dragging it over the threshold when Tom said hello. Dylan and his friends were always hauling computer parts and video equipment over to one another’s houses, so Tom didn’t think twice about the bag. He told the boys what snacks were available, said good night, and came to bed.

We slept without interruption, and when I came down to make breakfast, Eric had already gone. After all the fuss about cleaning the guest room, the bed had not been slept in at all.


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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 15, 2019 10:52 pm

From Susan Klebold's book:

Saturday, April 17, 1999

On Saturday, April 17, Tom and I remained on standby at home to help Dylan get ready for the prom.

Dylan woke much calmer than the day before; he seemed to be going out of his way to convince me he wasn’t nervous. When I asked if he was concerned Robyn wouldn’t make it from the airport in time, he shrugged and said, "It’s no big deal. If we make it, we make it. If we don’t, we don’t. I’m not worried about it."

Late afternoon, his hair still wet from his shower, Dylan hauled his tuxedo into our bedroom, where we had a full-length mirror to work with. New to formal wear, he needed Tom’s help to understand what all the tuxedo pieces were. Self-conscious in black socks, plaid boxer shorts, and a gleaming white shirt with a stiff, pleated front, he seemed to tower over his father, though there was only a two-inch difference between them.

He stood patiently while Tom awkwardly twisted tiny pieces of metal and plastic through the many buttonholes. The bow tie stumped Tom, and Dylan wrestled it away to try it himself; together, the two consummate problem-solvers figured it out. I sat on the bed to keep them company and told Dylan he looked like Lee Marvin getting outfitted in Western finery in Cat Ballou, one of our family’s favorites. Both he and Tom laughed.

I had the camera, and Dylan tolerated a few shots before becoming self-conscious and annoyed as usual. I tried to catch one of his reflection in the mirror without him noticing, but he grabbed a towel and flicked it to block the shot. I developed the roll a few months after his death, using an assumed name so the press wouldn’t get ahold of the pictures. In that photo, only a fragment of his face is visible behind the towel--a mischievous grin under tired eyes.

We’d spent that year begging Dylan to get a haircut, to no avail, but I convinced him to tie his hair back into a ponytail with one of my own elastics for the prom. He put his prescription glasses in his pocket and donned a pair of small-framed sunglasses. We thought he looked very handsome.

Alison, our renter, came over and offered to take a picture of the three of us. In the picture, Dylan is clowning around, hamming it up like a professional model, Zoolanderstyle. The sharp lines of his formal wear stand in stark contrast to the faded flannel shirts and worn blue jeans Tom and I are wearing. He kept his sunglasses on as he posed with us; he wore dark glasses often during the last weeks of his life. I believe now he was hiding behind them.

Tom had remembered to charge the batteries on our video camera, and he filmed Dylan briefly before Robyn arrived. The conversation between them is stilted; clearly, neither of them is comfortable on camera. But we have looked back on this pre-prom video many times, and shown it to others. It is absolutely stunning how normal Dylan seems.

He and Tom talk lazily about baseball; Dylan mimes his hero, Randy Johnson, pitching in an ill-fitting tuxedo. Tom makes some comment about growing up, and Dylan remarks he’ll never have kids. Tom says he may change his mind, and Dylan says, "I know. I know. Someday I’ll look back at this and say, 'What was I thinking?!!' " It is breathtakingly prophetic. When Tom persists in filming over Dylan’s protests, Dylan pinches small handfuls of snow from a nearby bush, lobbing the miniature snowballs playfully at Tom until the camera stops running. The fondness between them is palpable. It breaks my heart.

Robyn arrived in good time, looking lovely in a deep blue-purple dress. Tom taped Dylan presenting her with her corsage, and smiling down at her as she struggled to pin a rose to his lapel. I made paparazzi jokes and asked them to move so I could get a picture without parked cars in the background. Since Dylan had assured us he and Robyn were just friends, I was a little surprised--and frankly tickled--to see him put his arm around her.

In the last few frames on the tape Tom shot, the two of them smile into the camera. Then, self-consciously but sweetly, they both begin to laugh.

...

When I heard Dylan’s car arrive home from the prom after 4 a.m., I roused myself to talk with him. Though I was tired, I wanted to reach out.

We met at the foot of the stairs. He looked exhausted but happy, a kid who’d had a big night. As usual, he was reluctant to volunteer information, so I peppered him with questions about what he’d eaten and whom he’d hung out with. I was excited to find out he’d danced. He thanked me for paying for tickets and clothes, and I was pleasantly surprised by his effusiveness when he told me he’d had the best night of his life.

I had kissed him good night and turned to go back to bed when he stopped me. "I want to show you something." He pulled a metal flask from his pocket. Someone with a little skill and a lot of solder had fixed a large crack at the top with a messy patch.

"What is this?" I demanded. "Where did you get this thing?"

He said he’d found it. When I asked what it contained, Dylan said it held peppermint schnapps, and that he’d rather not say where he’d gotten the alcohol. I was about to launch into my well-worn concerns about drinking when Dylan held up a hand, silencing me.

"I want you to know you can trust me and you can trust Robyn. I had filled this so we could drink it tonight. I want you to see only a little tiny bit is missing." He handed me the flask, and insisted I examine it closely, as if he were going to do a magic trick with it. "We had a little bit to drink at the beginning of the evening but no more after that. See? It’s close to the top." I acknowledged the flask was nearly full.

"I just wanted you to know you can trust me," he said again. Still a little shaken, I thanked him for sharing the information with me before adding, "I do trust you." Then I headed off to bed, reassured. I’d never expected him to get through high school without experimenting with alcohol, after all. At least he’d told me about it.

I’ve given a lot of thought to that private moment between mother and son in the stillness of the night. In retrospect, I sometimes think that engaging me in that conversation about the flask was among the cruelest tricks Dylan ever played on me. Was he consciously manipulating me into trusting him, even as he was planning a massacre? Was he mocking me? If he was preparing to die within a few days, why was it necessary to establish my trust in him? Did he need reassurance, or was he trying to prevent me from searching his room?

I once shared these thoughts with a psychologist who then asked me, "How do you know he wasn’t in earnest? Maybe he did want to earn your approval, and it had nothing to do with what was to follow." It’s one of the many things I will never know.

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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 15, 2019 10:52 pm

From Susan Klebold's book:

Sunday, April 18, 1999

Sunday after the prom, Dylan slept late, then left for Eric’s in the afternoon. He looked terribly tired, which was only to be expected after the sleepover on Friday night and a late night at the prom. I made a large kettle of homemade vegetable soup with posole, but Byron had plans and Dylan didn’t get home until later, so Tom and I ate alone.

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slippy123

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Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 15, 2019 10:58 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
From Susan Klebold's book:

Friday, April 16, 1999

Four days before the tragedy, I saw the Toulouse-Lautrec exhibit with a friend at the Denver Art Museum, while Tom and Dylan studied a map of the University of Arizona to find the dorm closest to the center of campus and tried to figure out which rooms were the largest. After they were through, Dylan picked up his tuxedo. He hung the bag from his closet door to keep the contents from wrinkling. We would see it, later, in the background of one of the Basement Tapes.

Tom and I both noticed Dylan was a little agitated that week. I was sure he was nervous about the prom. Robyn was flying back to Denver on Saturday afternoon after an out-of-state church function, and her flight time would cut it close. Dylan had to choose flowers and work out the logistics of dinner and transportation; the tasks were, to say the least, out of his area of expertise.

That Friday, Dylan asked if Eric could sleep over. We agreed. The guest room hadn’t been cleaned since Nate had spent the night a couple of weeks earlier, and our sick cat Rocky had thrown up in there, so Tom and I wrestled a vacuum cleaner up the stairs and asked Dylan to clean the room and bathroom before his friend arrived.

Dylan was irritated we were making such a big deal about cleaning; he told us Eric didn’t care if the room was clean or not. I overrode his protests. "Eric may not care, but we do. If you clean your room, Dad will do the bathroom and I’ll do the guest room. It’ll go fast if we all help." A few minutes later, Dylan left the house, saying he had a quick errand to run. I rolled my eyes, believing he was procrastinating; more likely, he was removing something he did not want us to see. After Dylan returned, we poked our heads into his room intermittently to check his progress. Neither one of us saw anything unusual.

I’d already gone to bed when Eric arrived about 10:00 p.m. He had brought a large duffel bag, so heavy he could hardly lift it, and he was dragging it over the threshold when Tom said hello. Dylan and his friends were always hauling computer parts and video equipment over to one another’s houses, so Tom didn’t think twice about the bag. He told the boys what snacks were available, said good night, and came to bed.

We slept without interruption, and when I came down to make breakfast, Eric had already gone. After all the fuss about cleaning the guest room, the bed had not been slept in at all.


Man, to think Sue just thought it was another normal teenage sleepover, with kids staying up late and playing computer games until dawn.
Little did she know that in her own house, the finalization of plans for what would be the worst school shooting in America up to that point, was happening probably 20 feet away from her own bedroom.
She was probably was excited that after all the issues Dylan had in high-school, he was set to graduate in a few weeks and move on into the real world.
Little did she know that in 96 hours her son would be dead, along with 14 others, and her life would never be the same again.
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 15, 2019 11:26 pm

I believe we are worse off than 20 years ago. We are divided as a country and have a complete joke of a system.
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PostSubject: Re: Twenty years of Columbine   Twenty years of Columbine - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Apr 16, 2019 9:21 am

Was just re-reading the part of the Basement Tapes filmed at Eric and Dylan's last "sleep over".
Although I've read it a dozen or more times, I realized I've not appreciated the significance of this until now:

"They then begin discussing "the fucking snow is gay" in relation to the weather outside saying that they "hope the shit clears out by Tuesday, actually Sunday."

This means that, at least as of April 16th, the plan was for the attack to take place on Tuesday the 20th. So, assumptions that it was delayed a day because Mark Manes did not buy more ammunition until Monday are likely to be incorrect.
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