My theories on Columbine - some New ideas you haven't heard before

Hello,

My first post, but i'm a long time lurker and I have an interest in Columbine that goes way back to 99'. I was a Marilyn Manson fan in 99' and I remember vividly my parents freaking out about that and trying to steer me away from it in the moral panic of the period.

Why is this particular tragedy so much more interesting than all the other school shootings?

I believe the answer lies in all the mysterious actions of the shooters on that day. But, after much speculation and time spent thinking about this event, I believe I can shed some light.

I have always wondered why Eric and Dylan didn't kill more people. I have pondered this for years and have come to some conclusions, based on my research into this event. My main conclusion is that they just weren't that interested in shooting people, and the shooting came as an afterthought to their main plan- The bombing of the cafeteria

Here are some of my theories into why Eric and Dylan didn't shoot more people in 99' and appeared to hold back in situations when they had multiple stationary, close-range targets in the library.

1. Fear. I think fear played a role in Eric and Dylan holding back from killing more people. Eric and Dylan's weapons were crap and they were bad shots. Dylan in particular had issues with his tec-9 and he had to ditch nearly a full clip of 50(?) rounds outside the school at the beginning of the shooting. Dylan only had about 5 clips in total for his tec-9. His big clip of 50 rounds jammed, he left one clip of 30(?) bullets in his car. He had another 3 clips and he used up almost all of them. Each of those clips also contained around 30 rounds. Dylan was found with only several 9mm bullets left. Eric similarly was low on ammo for his rifle when he was found dead in the library, only having a clip and a half left of 9mm ammo. Both had around 20-30 shotguns shells left each, but they were probably nervous about relying on their shotguns with large numbers of students around + swat which could overpower then. Don't forget that Dylan had to break open his shotgun and reload it after firing 2 shots. This slow rate of fire would personally make me nervous if I was planning on suppressing crowds of people and I had already used up most of my 9mm ammo.

2. A shooting spree was not the goal that day. This was a bombing, with a shootout with survivors and law enforcement in the aftermath. The improvised, poorly-planned nature of their shooting spree is made obvious by one thing- they were terribly inefficient at maximizing their casualty rates with their improvised chosen routes and methods. For example, when Dylan is outside the school at the beginning of the shooting spree he walks into the cafeteria briefly to check on the un-exploded bombs. The cafeteria was packed full of student and Dylan didn't fire a shot (Dylan had already shot and killed Dan R at this point). I think he was likely intimidated by the crowd and didn't feel confident with his prone-to-malfunction weapons (tec-9 clip already failed?), and he quickly exits the cafeteria and joins Eric on the hill. Dylan only shoots about 6 bullets outside the school, which seems like a very low amount. Eric shoots more bullets, maybe 20, but most seem to miss, and he seems more interested in having a shoot out with police. They both waste time outside the school throwing pipe bombs. This is bizarre behaviour and completely inconsistent with the idea that Eric and Dylan wanted to shoot as many people to death as possible.

3. When Eric and Dylan enter the school at first they again appear to waste a lot of time. They occasionally shoot at, and mostly miss, fleeing students. Dave Sanders appears to be about the only good shot they make in this roughly 10 minute window. Eric and Dylan pace around outside the library and waste more time throwing pipe bombs (we see them go off in the cafeteria tapes). They eventually enter the library.

4. When Eric and Dylan first enter the library they mostly ignore the students and make their way straight to the window to fire at police. As they go to the window, they pass Kyle V who is shot dead by Dylan, once in the head. This appears to be circumstantial because Kyle didn't take cover and was sitting directly in their walking path.

5. Eric and Dylan's main initial interest when they enter the library appears to be to gain a position at the window and have a shootout with police. Why only police and not fleeing survivors you ask? They have a library full of people to shoot at if that's their goal, and that clearly isn't their first priority. If they are targeting bullies then why is their first victim in the library a retarded kid? This leads me to believe that Eric and Dylan were much more interested in having a shootout with police and hitting challenging targets. I think the complete lack of damage Eric and Dylan caused by firing out of the library window is very telling. They apparently didn't hit anyone and THIS is what leads to the library massacre. It is at this point that Dylan turns left and fires under a table, commencing the library massacre. You might say that one of the main causes of the library massacre is Eric and Dylan being unable to hit their preferred targets from the library window.

6. I am particularly interested in why Dylan was first to turn and fire at students in the library under tables, when Eric has the more murderous reputation. I think this can be partly attributed to Dylan's fear of being rushed by students. Dylan may have noticed the large numbers of students in the library suddenly and felt vulnerable to being rushed. Dylan shot most of his victims at a distance and didn't appear to have as many up-close-and-personal killings like Eric did in the library.

7. Eric's actions in the library seem to be a man who is angry and disappointed that his main bombing plan had failed. Eric kills mercilessly in the library at first, but it doesn't seem to satisfy him much. He could have done much more damage, but after he kills a few he appears to rapidly lose interest and prioritises checking the bombs. It's important to also remember that Eric's first kill in the library leads to Eric breaking his nose with his own shotgun kicking back. Eric then began hysterically laughing and appeared to have trouble concentrating (concussed?). Eric must have begun to feel like a joke at this point, and was likely laughing at himself as a cover for his humiliation.

8. When Eric and Dylan first try to detonate the bombs on tape in the cafeteria, we have reached a major turning point in the shooting. Eric and Dylan continue stalking the school for over 30(?) minutes but don't kill a single person, despite plenty of opportunities. I think this is the strangest and creepiest part of the shooting. Eric and Dylan have completely run out of ideas and are approaching the realisation that their suicide moment is approaching, but they clearly procrastinate and stall as they stalk the school. They had completely lost interest in shooting people at this point, and with the failure of the bombs and the critically low ammo supply, it must have been a desperate feeling. Dylan's posture in his final appearance on the cafeteria tape, minutes before his suicide, seems deflated.

9. Eric and Dylan go back to the library, possibly intending for a final showdown with police from an advantageous position. Eric was running very low on ammo for his only useful ranged weapon, his carbine. I think Eric was extremely angry at himself by this point for the many perceived failures of the day. I think this made the decision for Eric to kill himself easier. He first fired at police, possibly realised his weapon wasn't doing any damage, then stood up and walked to the spot where he blew his brains out. There may have been little warning for Dylan, who clearly died after Eric. Dylan's decision not to use the shotgun for his suicide is very telling. He was scared and wanted a clean death. This is consistent with Dylan killing less and usually from a distance. I think possibly his first shotgun blasts to Lance K's face and Dan R outside the school appears to have put him off further gore. That was Dylan's most brutal moment and he never seems to get that brutal again. The number of casualties that were injured instead of killed by Dylan's bullets in the library suggests that he wasn't looking at his targets and was very ineffective, probably on purpose. Kyle V is an exception, but he was a distance shot. John Tomlin was finished off by Dylan at close range, but JT appears to have been lying face down when this happened, meaning it was easier and less personal for Dylan to execute the shots.

10. If I could go back in time and film the whole event for you guys, I think we would see a very strange picture. We would see a picture of 2 boys who, for the majority of the shooting, didn't do much at all other than stalk the school corridors occasionally shooting and mostly missing people. The boy's rate of fire across the entire 40 or so minutes is probably less than a bullet every 30 seconds. Their bark was far worse than their bite and their follow-through on their menacing threats heard on the 9-11 call 'you're all gonna pay now' was pretty weak considering how much further they could have taken it. No disrespect to the victims, but the survival rate of total numbers of students in the library was over 50%.

11. In conclusion, in the boy's eyes this whole day was a failure. This was a bombing that failed. The boys then impulsively follow-up with a poorly thought-out shooting when the bombs failed. They quickly lost interest in actually shooting people, tried to detonate the bombs again, failed, walked around the school aimlessly and then killed themselves at the scene where they had caused the most carnage, probably dying with feelings that were a mixture of anger, disappointment, humiliation and fear. Not pride.

I agree with a lot of what you said and I think a majority of the others here would as well.

We do know that the intended result that day was the bombing and due to poor planning and execution it failed. Good thing the 2 couldn't improvise.

I also think it is one thing to think/write about killing people or even see pictures of dead people and another to actually take a life. I don't think it was as satisfying as they thought it would be.

I do think Eric was procrastinating at killing himself. He waited until the moment he thought he had no time left and nothing left to do. In reality there were many other "targets" in the school and he killed himself. At that point Dylan was left alone and had to kill himself as well.

From a fellow forum noob and one old enough to remember that day, some interesting ideas and some things needing correction.

Of course, there was supposed to be a bombing leading to a fleeing of students, which was supposed to make the shooting and bomb tossing a lot easier.  

I have wondered myself about the issue of fear playing a larger role that day than is usually mentioned. People speak of the confidence with which they entered the library, but they must have eventually feared the cops entering.  In fact, I've wondered if the time wandering the halls isn't about remorse or stalling for suicide or anything but trying to find the cops who they figured were somewhere in the school. They could not have expected the cops to just sit there, and they seemed to want dead cops and suicide by cop.

There is also Dylan not shooting at anybody in the cafeteria when he enters from outside. I have to imagine being alone was a factor, and maybe memories of Kip Kinkel being rushed in the cafeteria as well. Supposedly outside, Eric shoots nearly 50 times and Dylan shoots just 5, including the shotgun blasts to a dying Daniel R. and to Lance. So, I guess it was a single shot at Rachel or Richard, a single shot to the soccer fields, and a single shot down the steps, or something. It seems like the diagrams and so on have Dylan shooting more.

I've also wondered if the library massacre happened because it was a position to fire at the cops, but to gain control of the room rather than have people rush you from behind, they killed. Then again, you could just have one shoot out the windows and have another turn around and hold up the room at gunpoint.

It is interesting to point out that the first to really fire under the tables was Dylan. However, there's all the comments they make when entering the library, and Eric shooting twice at Evan Todd. Therefore, I think it's fair to say the library massacre starts when they enter the library, and not after they shot out the windows. It doesn't seem like the library massacre was an afterthought or just to stop people rushing them while they shot at cops. It seems more likely that, say, they followed where Patti went than they just wanted the windows.

It wasn't Eric's first kill that broke his nose. That's just false. He had already killed Steven Curnow with a shot to the neck, and quite severely injured Kacey Ruegsegger.  Also, they did supposedly fire at police when they went back to the library, but the usual answer for why they returned to the library is their car bombs were set to explode at noon. They had just exhausted their attempts to make the cafeteria bombs explode, so it makes some sense that they wanted to watch the car bombs explode.

Also I've often heard Dylan's guns especially were crap. I confess I know nothing about guns. Their weapon choices seem to be because of Doom, and it does not seem like any other mass murderers chose their weapons. If they were indeed crap, then all the worse for the police doing nothing that day.

That said, because of Doom, and a few other reasons, like Dylan mentioning NBK first, and being the one going down the stairs to check on the bombs, which makes me wonder if he was supposed to be the one at the bottom of the steps shooting as far as the south entrance, I wonder if they thought Dylan had the superior guns.

Cakeman, I think we've nailed it.

They went back to the library so they could watch the car bombs explode. They might not have even been planning to commit suicide immediately at this point. But the failure of the car bombs may have pushed Eric to act on the suicide option.

You're right, I was wrong about Eric breaking his nose in the library on his first kill. But it doesn't invalidate my point. Eric killed 2 in rapid succession, breaking his nose on the 2nd kill. He was going to kill a 3rd but gets distracted by the bloody nose and Dylan calling to him. This potentially put a stop to a murderous rampage of non-stop shooting from Eric. Eric stops after breaking his nose, momentarily, he recovers and goes on to shoot more, but it is much more random and inconsistent. He spends time shaking bookshelves and talking to people etc.

Their state of mind when they were stalking the school after the liobrary massacre can be speculated on. If they wanted a police confrontation, they knew where the police positions were. They instead go deeper into the school. If they wanted a suicide by cop blaze of glory then they should have approached the police lines outside the school.

I still hold the initial reason they went to the library was to gain a position over the police. Patti N ran to the library after Eric shot out the West End Doors, but then Eric had a shootout with Officer G before pulling back into the school. I reckon this shootout would have made Eric very nervous. After Eric shoots at Evan Todd in the library, who was in the pathway to the window position, Eric and Dylan walk straight to the windows. They shoot Kyle on the way who happens to be sitting directly in their walking path. They then start firing out of the window and totally ignore the room full of kids. I think Dylan turning to fire under the table first could have been a combination of frustration that his weapon wasn't hitting targets outside and fear of being rushed by students in the library.

Harris also began shooting people in the library out of frustration that his weapon wasn't hitting targets from the window. The killers clearly didn't derive much satisfaction from shooting sitting duck targets. They were influenced by Doom, and in Doom the targets fight back. I think Eric and Dylan would have quickly realised that shooting unarmed innocents is not quite the same thing, hence the focus on police and the abrupt loss of interest in easy slaughter.

I'm of the opinion that when the bombs failed to go off Eric and Dylan just decided to experiment and eventually got bored. They didn't accomplish the full grandiosity of what they set out to do and after the initial adrenaline rush of rage and excitement wore off there wasn't the same sense of purpose. I don't believe that they had any strategic plans, they just wandered around picking people off until the school was too empty to bother anymore.

cakeman wrote:

they seemed to want dead cops and suicide by cop.

I believe Eric specifically mentioned planning to die at the hands of police.

I agree with Eric and Dylan going to the library in order to get shots at the police. I also believe that they thought the library was vacant until shortly before they even walked in. They walked by the wide open doors a few times and weren't really interested in going inside. I think they only noticed that people were in there once Eric noticed Evan Todd next to the pillar and decided to take a few shots at him as Evan Todd took cover.


My theories on what they were thinking throughout the massacre:

When the bombs failed, they were both too excited/nervous to really care. Not to mention they were mentally prepared to go through with their plans on 4/20, so it was no going back for them. So overall, during the outside portion of the massacre, they were having fun and not too distracted about the bombs failing to explode. They possibly felt confident that the bombs were just delayed a little bit and would eventually explode, regardless of actually having a reason to think that.

Once most people outside had taken cover/ran, they decided to go indoors. They started shooting and throwing bombs randomly, still having a good time but also anticipating the delayed explosion of the cafeteria bombs. Eric steps back outside to shoot at Neil Gardner. After 2 short gunfights with Gardner, Eric eventually notices Evan Todd in the Library among other people and is also aware of the advantage of shooting at Gardner again through the library windows. Eric's primary motivation for entering the library was to shoot at the cops again but from a better position (he had just recently exchanged gunfire with the cops so the cops were probably a priority in his mind). Dylan didn't seem too hellbent on shooting at the cops, and I think Dylan was mainly going with the flow and just trying to enjoy the last moments of his life. Because of this, Dylan quickly got bored with shooting the cops and decided to take the more "fun" route of killing people. Same happened with Eric.

Up until they entered the center section of the library, I believe they were having fun. Eric not as much because of his broken nose, but still enjoying it regardless. By the time they enter the center section, they appear to be getting bored. I'm sure the interaction between Dylan and John Savage reminded Dylan of the reality of the situation for a while. Eric started thinking more about the bombs at this point. They leave the library.

However, they don't go directly to the cafeteria, which makes me believe that checking bombs wasn't as much as a priority to them than we think. They go to the science hallway and attempt to open a few doors, shoot into some empty rooms, light the storage room on fire with a Molotov, etc. They wasted 8 minutes in the science hallway. Potentially waiting for the bombs to explode on their own? Who knows?

Cafeteria happens, bomb partially explodes. Might have brought excitement back into them for a bit. Then they start wandering towards the offices and do the same thing that they did in the science hallway: shoot randomly, attempt to open locked doors, etc. At this point I think they're getting bored again and anxious for the suicide that is soon to come. (And if they were still planning on doing suicide by cop at this point, they would definitely be extra nervous/scared for that). All of their plans for the day have ended: they killed enough people until they were satisfied with it, the bombs [partially] exploded. There was nothing else to do.

To waste time, they go back to the cafeteria to look at the aftermath of the explosion. From the cafeteria, they see the cops outside. They agree that now is the time. If they were planning on dying by cop, I think this is the point where they knew they'd rather die by their own hands. If they wanted to die by cop, they wouldn't have gone to the library windows (and the whole point of going there the first time around was to get a safer position to shoot the cops from).

They go back to the library, probably to look around at the damage they'd done (similar to why they entered the cafeteria a second time), do one final shootout with the cops, and end it.

Paneye wrote:

Cakeman, I think we've nailed it.

We have? Cool.

Paneye wrote:

They went back to the library so they could watch the car bombs explode. They might not have even been planning to commit suicide immediately at this point. But the failure of the car bombs may have pushed Eric to act on the suicide option.

Yes, I think so. Though there was a time when I had not even considered it, and it's not an original idea of mine. I got it from a guy who finds the fact that they committed suicide in the library to be the most profound aspect of the massacre, that they died among their victims showing they somehow subconsciously thought of themselves as victims or whatever. That and their being the same age as their victims, only the ammunition belts to distinguish them, might indeed explain their being treated like victims quite often, e. g. their being 15 crosses.  But any thought of "dying among their victims" is probably more brutal than he surmises, wanting to be "Knee Deep in the Dead". Regardless, he said either it was that, or it was to watch their car bombs.  Then you see the clock from one of the car bombs set to 12, and going there just after the sprinklers put out the fire from the gas tank on the cafeteria bombs, and I think it makes sense.  And yeah, it might have. We will probably never know. I am inclined to believe it was either that or he caught a glimpse of SWAT.

Paneye wrote:

You're right, I was wrong about Eric breaking his nose in the library on his first kill. But it doesn't invalidate my point. Eric killed 2 in rapid succession, breaking his nose on the 2nd kill. He was going to kill a 3rd but gets distracted by the bloody nose and Dylan calling to him. This potentially put a stop to a murderous rampage of non-stop shooting from Eric. Eric stops after breaking his nose, momentarily, he recovers and goes on to shoot more, but it is much more random and inconsistent. He spends time shaking bookshelves and talking to people etc.

The bloody nose probably does play some aspect in how things went that day. It seems to me it eventually brought him down off whatever high made the library massacre start, such that he went to check on the bombs. Had the cops rushed in 'active shooter' fashion like today, would he even got the chance to check?  

Hard to say whether it made the library massacre itself play out differently, precisely because it happened so early, and that he still shot people after it anyway. The shaking of the bookshelf is an oddity, but hard to say it would not have happened but for breaking his nose.  

Paneye wrote:

Their state of mind when they were stalking the school after the library massacre can be speculated on. If they wanted a police confrontation, they knew where the police positions were. They instead go deeper into the school. If they wanted a suicide by cop blaze of glory then they should have approached the police lines outside the school.

True, but they already shot at police - so they wanted them dead, a 'police confrontation', and mentioned both killing cops and suicide by cop, and didn't seem to expect to ever leave the school. The school was the map they were familiar with, with corners to hide behind, etc, and I can't imagine they planned on police never getting near them. On the contrary, it seems. I don't think they wanted to make it easy for police by rushing the cop cars outside or anything like that.

If they planned on cops never entering, I am more inclined to believe they fooled them with the diversion bombs being motion activated or some such, than that it was just because it was 1999.  

Paneye wrote:

I still hold the initial reason they went to the library was to gain a position over the police. Patti N ran to the library after Eric shot out the West End Doors, but then Eric had a shootout with Officer G before pulling back into the school. I reckon this shootout would have made Eric very nervous. After Eric shoots at Evan Todd in the library, who was in the pathway to the window position, Eric and Dylan walk straight to the windows. They shoot Kyle on the way who happens to be sitting directly in their walking path. They then start firing out of the window and totally ignore the room full of kids. I think Dylan turning to fire under the table first could have been a combination of frustration that his weapon wasn't hitting targets outside and fear of being rushed by students in the library.

Harris also began shooting people in the library out of frustration that his weapon wasn't hitting targets from the window. The killers clearly didn't derive much satisfaction from shooting sitting duck targets. They were influenced by Doom, and in Doom the targets fight back. I think Eric and Dylan would have quickly realised that shooting unarmed innocents is not quite the same thing, hence the focus on police and the abrupt loss of interest in easy slaughter.

Maybe. It's true the library had windows and elevation, and they head toward the windows, and Evan and Kyle were in the way. It's also supposedly true that both weren't hidden as well as the others. It just seems like Eric brings up killing cops after they have entered, not as a reason for their entering in the first place, but it could have been. Also, those in the library say they entered without seemingly any fear.

It's true the cops were the only ones to exchange fire like a real first person shooter. However, in Doom the targets also stand up rather than hide under tables - what they kept telling the people in the library to do, well before having anything to do with the windows, and have green hair perhaps like the jocks white hats. When they call people Doom zombies in their journals and yearbooks, they are talking about classmates. It's more Duke Nukem 3D that has you battle with police, or at least pigs dressed as police. Have to wonder if Eric relished breaking his nose making him look like Doom guy with half his health drained, since he doesn't seem all that upset about it.

mwilliam wrote:

They possibly felt confident that the bombs were just delayed a little bit and would eventually explode, regardless of actually having a reason to think that.

Yeah, I wonder often about that too. The fact that shooting started in the first place as if they thought the bombs went off or would do, from a vantage point out of sight from the cafeteria, Dylan descending the stairs and checking on the bombs (yet they had supposedly already moved to 'plan B' and realized they weren't going to explode? what's to check?), and their confidence and comments in the library about blowing up the school and everybody in the library is going to die, and only later trying to make the bombs explode, as if they felt they didn't need to do that. Plus if they thought shooting at the bombs would set them off, that could have been done already, including by Dylan when he entered the cafeteria outside.

Then of course, they might have gone into the library for the same reason they shot at the bombs, to die in the explosion. That is, if they expected library to collapse into the cafeteria. A bit bizarre why they would shoot people then, but I guess that kind of carnage of death by both gunshot and fire and bombs is what they wanted in the cafeteria, and once that was impossible the next most likely place to get it was the library.

Also, I wouldn't know, but Krabbe says the clocks they used could not be set to "bombs go off at exactly 11:17" only "bombs go off at about 11:17". If that's true, could it have started at 11:19 because they were confident they would go off by say 11:20?

cakeman wrote:

Have to wonder if Eric relished breaking his nose making him look like Doom guy with half his health drained, since he doesn't seem all that upset about it.

I think was the adrenaline. He probably hardly felt anything when it happened.

QuestionMark wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Have to wonder if Eric relished breaking his nose making him look like Doom guy with half his health drained, since he doesn't seem all that upset about it.

I think was the adrenaline. He probably hardly felt anything when it happened.

I agree. He was all amped up on adrenaline. I doubt he even felt that his nose was broken. He likely only realized once the blood started to run. I was always a fan of the theory that states that is why he drank from the cup in the cafeteria.

QuestionMark wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Have to wonder if Eric relished breaking his nose making him look like Doom guy with half his health drained, since he doesn't seem all that upset about it.

I think was the adrenaline. He probably hardly felt anything when it happened.

Yes, I would agree that's the most natural theory. In my own experience, a hit to the nose might engage fight or flight, but the actual pain and soreness usually isn't until the next day or at least a bit later. And that's without the adrenaline rush from murdering your classmates and firing at cops and so on.

I also might be trying too hard to draw Doom connections. I do think there's more than is usually talked about, and think it is fitting that Eric broke his nose but not Dylan, so Eric looked more like Doomguy while Dylan was kept pristine in the movie going through his head.

I think of Eric's berserk, the wooden thingy he kept in his pocket as a Doom powerup-talisman thing.  Maybe he just kept it in his pocket, but I imagined it as a thing he touches, like you would a powerup in a game. If so, then the natural time for him to touch it was after knocking himself in the face, and he might have relished the video game realism going on.  

That's probably too much. I still think they wanted white hats to stand up to shoot jocks like Doom zombies with green hair, though.

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

Well I think they had pretty much written the bombs off by that point.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

Well I think they had pretty much written the bombs off by that point.

It's possible, but seeing as they came back to the cafeteria twice to try and set them off and watch the damage, you can tell they really wanted those bombs to go off. That makes me think they didn't really write them off until they left the cafeteria for the last time, after failing twice. As we all know Columbine was meant to be a mass bombing first, and a shootout second. I also believe they banked on at least one of them going off, and the fact that none did really messed with their moral. Even their car bombs failed. I believe one in Dylan's car partially detonated, but this was after they were both dead. That would also explain why they didn't have a solid "plan b". They really banked on those bombs and when they failed it had to of destroyed their moral. Ironic that the only bomb that worked the way it was supposed to was the diversion device. I believe they knew the library was a good place to kill alot of people but were hoping the bombs would blow which is why they bypassed it a few times. They didn't want to go out by dying from their own bombs. They wanted to go out with a big police shootout or die by their own hands, not from rubble falling on them from an explosion.

slippy123 wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

Well I think they had pretty much written the bombs off by that point.

It's possible, but seeing as they came back to the cafeteria twice to try and set them off and watch the damage, you can tell they really wanted those bombs to go off. That makes me think they didn't really write them off until they left the cafeteria for the last time, after failing twice. As we all know Columbine was meant to be a mass bombing first, and a shootout second. I also believe they banked on at least one of them going off, and the fact that none did really messed with their moral. That would also explain why they didn't have a solid "plan b". Ironic that the only bomb that worked the way it was supposed to was the diversion device.  

This is true. I do wonder if things would have been any different had the diversion bomb failed as well.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

Well I think they had pretty much written the bombs off by that point.

It's possible, but seeing as they came back to the cafeteria twice to try and set them off and watch the damage, you can tell they really wanted those bombs to go off. That makes me think they didn't really write them off until they left the cafeteria for the last time, after failing twice. As we all know Columbine was meant to be a mass bombing first, and a shootout second. I also believe they banked on at least one of them going off, and the fact that none did really messed with their moral. That would also explain why they didn't have a solid "plan b". Ironic that the only bomb that worked the way it was supposed to was the diversion device.  

This is true. I do wonder if things would have been any different had the diversion bomb failed as well.

What time did the diversion bomb go off again?

Also did it really do much to distract?

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

Well I think they had pretty much written the bombs off by that point.

It's possible, but seeing as they came back to the cafeteria twice to try and set them off and watch the damage, you can tell they really wanted those bombs to go off. That makes me think they didn't really write them off until they left the cafeteria for the last time, after failing twice. As we all know Columbine was meant to be a mass bombing first, and a shootout second. I also believe they banked on at least one of them going off, and the fact that none did really messed with their moral. That would also explain why they didn't have a solid "plan b". Ironic that the only bomb that worked the way it was supposed to was the diversion device.  

This is true. I do wonder if things would have been any different had the diversion bomb failed as well.

Over the years I've seen videos where experts in explosives have said even if both propane bombs went off, the explosion wouldn't of been enough to take the library down. People that were right next to the bombs could of been killed and or lose limbs and have 3rd degree burns, but the picture I get is that those bombs wouldn't of killed a quarter of the kids in the cafeteria, let alone 400+ people like they planned.

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

Well I think they had pretty much written the bombs off by that point.

It's possible, but seeing as they came back to the cafeteria twice to try and set them off and watch the damage, you can tell they really wanted those bombs to go off. That makes me think they didn't really write them off until they left the cafeteria for the last time, after failing twice. As we all know Columbine was meant to be a mass bombing first, and a shootout second. I also believe they banked on at least one of them going off, and the fact that none did really messed with their moral. That would also explain why they didn't have a solid "plan b". Ironic that the only bomb that worked the way it was supposed to was the diversion device.  

This is true. I do wonder if things would have been any different had the diversion bomb failed as well.

What time did the diversion bomb go off again?

Also did it really do much to distract?

A 911 call was placed at 11:21am regarding an explosion and small fire on S. Wadsworth Ave. Police and firefighters were called to the scene, so it did indeed cause a small diversion as the police were trying to figure out who would randomly place a bomb there, and were canvasing the area. The diversion bomb was actually two backpacks filled with explosives, and ironically not all the explosives in those backpacks even went off. You would of thought that with a year plus of planning they would of gotten the art of making these bombs down like the back of their hands. Luckily for the kids in the school, they didn't. It seems like they put alot of work into making pipe bombs, but not enough into the cafeteria bombs.

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slippy123 wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

Well I think they had pretty much written the bombs off by that point.

It's possible, but seeing as they came back to the cafeteria twice to try and set them off and watch the damage, you can tell they really wanted those bombs to go off. That makes me think they didn't really write them off until they left the cafeteria for the last time, after failing twice. As we all know Columbine was meant to be a mass bombing first, and a shootout second. I also believe they banked on at least one of them going off, and the fact that none did really messed with their moral. That would also explain why they didn't have a solid "plan b". Ironic that the only bomb that worked the way it was supposed to was the diversion device.  

This is true. I do wonder if things would have been any different had the diversion bomb failed as well.

Over the years I've seen videos where experts in explosives have said even if both propane bombs went off, the explosion wouldn't of been enough to take the library down. People that were right next to the bombs could of been killed and or lose limbs and have 3rd degree burns, but the picture I get is that those bombs wouldn't of killed a quarter of the kids in the cafeteria, let alone 400+ people like they planned.  

Agreed. Eric had grossly overestimated his bomb making capacity, and was too confident. BUT this likely did cut down on the victims that could have been killed or injured had they actually went off as planned.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

Well I think they had pretty much written the bombs off by that point.

It's possible, but seeing as they came back to the cafeteria twice to try and set them off and watch the damage, you can tell they really wanted those bombs to go off. That makes me think they didn't really write them off until they left the cafeteria for the last time, after failing twice. As we all know Columbine was meant to be a mass bombing first, and a shootout second. I also believe they banked on at least one of them going off, and the fact that none did really messed with their moral. That would also explain why they didn't have a solid "plan b". Ironic that the only bomb that worked the way it was supposed to was the diversion device.  

This is true. I do wonder if things would have been any different had the diversion bomb failed as well.

Over the years I've seen videos where experts in explosives have said even if both propane bombs went off, the explosion wouldn't of been enough to take the library down. People that were right next to the bombs could of been killed and or lose limbs and have 3rd degree burns, but the picture I get is that those bombs wouldn't of killed a quarter of the kids in the cafeteria, let alone 400+ people like they planned.  

Agreed. Eric had grossly overestimated his bomb making capacity, and was too confident. BUT this likely did cut down on the victims that could have been killed or injured had they actually went off as planned.

They tried to be like Timothy McVeigh, the Oaklahoma City bomber. The thing which shows you how young and dumb they were is the fact that the OKC bombing had a truck filled with explosives that measured out to be around 5,000 pounds of TNT, and the blast was felt 55+ miles away. Now McVeigh killed 168 people, and destroyed half a building with a blast equal to 5,000 pounds of TNT, yet Eric and Dylan planned on killing 400+ kids with two measly propane bombs. Luckily for the kids in that school they didn't do enough research.

slippy123 wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

Well I think they had pretty much written the bombs off by that point.

It's possible, but seeing as they came back to the cafeteria twice to try and set them off and watch the damage, you can tell they really wanted those bombs to go off. That makes me think they didn't really write them off until they left the cafeteria for the last time, after failing twice. As we all know Columbine was meant to be a mass bombing first, and a shootout second. I also believe they banked on at least one of them going off, and the fact that none did really messed with their moral. That would also explain why they didn't have a solid "plan b". Ironic that the only bomb that worked the way it was supposed to was the diversion device.  

This is true. I do wonder if things would have been any different had the diversion bomb failed as well.

Over the years I've seen videos where experts in explosives have said even if both propane bombs went off, the explosion wouldn't of been enough to take the library down. People that were right next to the bombs could of been killed and or lose limbs and have 3rd degree burns, but the picture I get is that those bombs wouldn't of killed a quarter of the kids in the cafeteria, let alone 400+ people like they planned.  

Agreed. Eric had grossly overestimated his bomb making capacity, and was too confident. BUT this likely did cut down on the victims that could have been killed or injured had they actually went off as planned.

They tried to be like Timothy McVeigh, the Oaklahoma City bomber. The thing which shows you how young and dumb they were is the fact that the OKC bombing had a truck filled with explosives that measured out to be around 5,000 pounds of TNT, and the blast was felt 55+ miles away. Now McVeigh killed 168 people, and destroyed half a building with a blast equal to 5,000 pounds of TNT, yet Eric and Dylan planned on killing 400+ kids with two measly propane bombs. Luckily for the kids in that school they didn't do enough research.  

I am well schooled in all things related to Timothy McVeigh.

Also I agree with you again. Things would have been drastically worse had their bombs worked.

Eric was too cocky about his bomb making skills and Dylan seemed to worry more about his pants and looking cool.

Luckily deep down inside they were 2 idiot teenagers. Not criminal masterminds with access to the kind of things and the knowledge Tim McVeigh had access to

slippy123 wrote:

They tried to be like Timothy McVeigh, the Oaklahoma City bomber. The thing which shows you how young and dumb they were is the fact that the OKC bombing had a truck filled with explosives that measured out to be around 5,000 pounds of TNT, and the blast was felt 55+ miles away. Now McVeigh killed 168 people, and destroyed half a building with a blast equal to 5,000 pounds of TNT, yet Eric and Dylan planned on killing 400+ kids with two measly propane bombs. Luckily for the kids in that school they didn't do enough research.  

Your point is well observed but you have to remember that E&D's cafeteria bombs were placed directly in the middle of a single room that was filled with crowds of potential victims.

The amount of heat needed to explode the tanks would never have been reached even if all went well. Someone would have noticed the smoke or if they didnt even the smoke alarms would have. And then the fire would have been extinguished.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Eric was too cocky about his bomb making skills and Dylan seemed to worry more about his pants and looking cool.

Luckily deep down inside they were 2 idiot teenagers.

Very true indeed.

I don’t think they thought the bombs were gonna kill everyone in the cafeteria. Sure they planned for 500+ people to be there when it happened, but they knew it wouldn’t be enough to kill everyone. Dylan says in the basement tapes “I hope we kill 250 of you” and that’s including the people they would have shot running out of the school, and the people they would have killed when they entered the school after the bombs went off.

They weren’t very strategically savvy. Sure, it sounds like a good plan for maximum casualties when you lay it all out, but they weren’t explosives experts, and they had crappy guns.

If they had focused on shooting everyone one by one in the library with the shotguns, they could have killed close to 50 people.

But I think once their bombs failed, they just said “screw it, let’s just start shooting people” and were more focused on having a fun time then they were on getting a high body count.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Eric was too cocky about his bomb making skills and Dylan seemed to worry more about his pants and looking cool.

Luckily deep down inside they were 2 idiot teenagers. Not criminal masterminds with access to the kind of things and the knowledge   Tim McVeigh had  access to

And were working with a book that was practically made to try and get gullible idiots to try blowing their hands off rather than make a workable bomb.

miketheratguy wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

They tried to be like Timothy McVeigh, the Oaklahoma City bomber. The thing which shows you how young and dumb they were is the fact that the OKC bombing had a truck filled with explosives that measured out to be around 5,000 pounds of TNT, and the blast was felt 55+ miles away. Now McVeigh killed 168 people, and destroyed half a building with a blast equal to 5,000 pounds of TNT, yet Eric and Dylan planned on killing 400+ kids with two measly propane bombs. Luckily for the kids in that school they didn't do enough research.  

Your point is well observed but you have to remember that E&D's cafeteria bombs were placed directly in the middle of a single room that was filled with crowds of potential victims.

Yes I am aware. As someone stated above, shooting a small propane tank doesn't give off a Hollywood explosion like they thought it would. Several things have to be in order for a propane tank to explode from a gunshot including, ammo type, a perfect mix of heat and oxygen, perfect ignition source, which rarely ever happens, especially with 9mm ammo. However if the gas escapes at a very high rate, and if it was perfectly ignited, it could be similar to a flame thrower sort of "spewing flames" which is kind of what happened when when a small fire broke out. Have you seen the video of them shooting at the bombs? A small fire breaks out that even the slowest kid would be able to move fast enough to escape with just minor burns. In fact this exploding tank myth was busted on myth busters: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] The voltage of the timer wasn't even enough to spark an explosion. They literally had no idea what they were doing. If they in fact went off, only people in a very small vicinity would of been killed. Most would suffer 3rd degree burns or shrapnel damage but ultimately would live. I will try to dig up the youtube videos of someone well versed in explosives explaining how the bombs were doomed from the start. Propane isn't TNT, and doesn't take structures like a school down. If they did their research they would of found that propane isn't great for the "bombs" they were trying to make and they could of made more powerful explosives with things they could legally buy. Luckily for the students they didn't.

slippy123 wrote:

miketheratguy wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

They tried to be like Timothy McVeigh, the Oaklahoma City bomber. The thing which shows you how young and dumb they were is the fact that the OKC bombing had a truck filled with explosives that measured out to be around 5,000 pounds of TNT, and the blast was felt 55+ miles away. Now McVeigh killed 168 people, and destroyed half a building with a blast equal to 5,000 pounds of TNT, yet Eric and Dylan planned on killing 400+ kids with two measly propane bombs. Luckily for the kids in that school they didn't do enough research.  

Your point is well observed but you have to remember that E&D's cafeteria bombs were placed directly in the middle of a single room that was filled with crowds of potential victims.

Yes I am aware. As someone stated above, shooting a small propane tank doesn't give off a Hollywood explosion like they thought it would. Several things have to be in order for a propane tank to explode from a gunshot including, ammo type, a perfect mix of heat and oxygen, perfect ignition source, which rarely ever happens, especially with 9mm ammo. However if the gas escapes at a very high rate, and if it was perfectly ignited, it could be similar to a flame thrower sort of "spewing flames" which is kind of what happened when when a small fire broke out. Have you seen the video of them shooting at the bombs? A small fire breaks out that even the slowest kid would be able to move fast enough to escape with just minor burns. In fact this exploding tank myth was busted on myth busters: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] The voltage of the timer wasn't even enough to spark an explosion. They literally had no idea what they were doing. If they in fact went off, only people in a very small vicinity would of been killed. Most would suffer 3rd degree burns or shrapnel damage but ultimately would live. I will try to dig up the youtube videos of someone well versed in explosives explaining how the bombs were doomed from the start. Propane isn't TNT, and doesn't take structures like a school down. If they did their research they would of found that propane isn't great for the "bombs" they were trying to make and they could of made more powerful explosives with things they could legally buy. Luckily for the students they didn't.

Not that I am saying you are wrong, but in the CCTV footage the fire bomb was I thought from Dylan throwing a molotov at the bomb itself not from any shots fired. I don't think any shots ignited anything.

Lizpuff wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

miketheratguy wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

They tried to be like Timothy McVeigh, the Oaklahoma City bomber. The thing which shows you how young and dumb they were is the fact that the OKC bombing had a truck filled with explosives that measured out to be around 5,000 pounds of TNT, and the blast was felt 55+ miles away. Now McVeigh killed 168 people, and destroyed half a building with a blast equal to 5,000 pounds of TNT, yet Eric and Dylan planned on killing 400+ kids with two measly propane bombs. Luckily for the kids in that school they didn't do enough research.  

Your point is well observed but you have to remember that E&D's cafeteria bombs were placed directly in the middle of a single room that was filled with crowds of potential victims.

Yes I am aware. As someone stated above, shooting a small propane tank doesn't give off a Hollywood explosion like they thought it would. Several things have to be in order for a propane tank to explode from a gunshot including, ammo type, a perfect mix of heat and oxygen, perfect ignition source, which rarely ever happens, especially with 9mm ammo. However if the gas escapes at a very high rate, and if it was perfectly ignited, it could be similar to a flame thrower sort of "spewing flames" which is kind of what happened when when a small fire broke out. Have you seen the video of them shooting at the bombs? A small fire breaks out that even the slowest kid would be able to move fast enough to escape with just minor burns. In fact this exploding tank myth was busted on myth busters: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] The voltage of the timer wasn't even enough to spark an explosion. They literally had no idea what they were doing. If they in fact went off, only people in a very small vicinity would of been killed. Most would suffer 3rd degree burns or shrapnel damage but ultimately would live. I will try to dig up the youtube videos of someone well versed in explosives explaining how the bombs were doomed from the start. Propane isn't TNT, and doesn't take structures like a school down. If they did their research they would of found that propane isn't great for the "bombs" they were trying to make and they could of made more powerful explosives with things they could legally buy. Luckily for the students they didn't.

Not that I am saying you are wrong, but in the CCTV footage the fire bomb was I thought from Dylan throwing a molotov at the bomb itself not from any shots fired.  I don't think any shots ignited anything.  

I was thinking of the diversion bomb partially detonating while typing that lol, but yes it was a Molotov, but as you can see no amount of bullets would make them explode. Once the timers failed, those bombs were never going off. Still is boggling how two kids who had so much hate and wanted to bring a library down didn't perfect the main thing in NBK. They put alot of work in pipebombs, crickets etc. Maybe Dylan was too worried about his look like someone said

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

I've thought many times they may have expected the bombs to go off during the library massacre. They said multiple times that everyone in there was gonna die from the explosion. That's the only way that would've happened. They didn't even go straight to the bombs when they left, and I'm sure they knew people would run out of there. It would also explain their confidence when they entered as reported by the witnesses. No need to worry about cops entering if the library is going to collapse. It would also explain why they chose the library. It means shooting at the bombs wasn't their first suicide attempt, walking into the library was. This also calls into question the standard "they started shooting when the bombs did not go off". They may have thought they were bound to go off. Indeed, it is hard for me at least to imagine why they would start shooting if they didn't think that.

As for the diversion bomb, it was pipe bombs, aerosol canisters, and propane tanks in two backpacks. Just some of the pipe bombs and aerosol canister went off. It didn't make much of a fire, so it was not much of a diversion. However, the details of the bombs were relayed to police at the school as to what to watch out for, and they claim it had motion detection capabilities. That's hard to believe, but that's what they said, and that has me strongly suspect it was part of why the cops did not enter the school, and feared "booby traps" and wanted to use the fire truck to ram into the door to take the brunt of the explosion if opening the door triggered a bomb, etc. So it's quite possible at least to me that things would have gone very differently if not for the diversion bomb.

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

I've thought many times they may have expected the bombs to go off during the library massacre. They said multiple times that everyone in there was gonna die from the explosion. That's the only way that would've happened. They didn't even go straight to the bombs when they left, and I'm sure they knew people would run out of there. It would also explain their confidence when they entered as reported by the witnesses. No need to worry about cops entering if the library is going to collapse. It would also explain why they chose the library. It means shooting at the bombs wasn't their first suicide attempt, walking into the library was. This also calls into question the standard "they started shooting when the bombs did not go off". They may have thought they were bound to go off. Indeed, it is hard for me at least to imagine why they would start shooting if they didn't think that.

As for the diversion bomb, it was pipe bombs, aerosol canisters, and propane tanks in two backpacks. Just some of the pipe bombs and aerosol canister went off. It didn't make much of a fire, so it was not much of a diversion. However, the details of the bombs were relayed to police at the school as to what to watch out for, and they claim it had motion detection capabilities. That's hard to believe, but that's what they said, and that has me strongly suspect it was part of why the cops did not enter the school, and feared "booby traps" and wanted to use the fire truck to ram into the door to take the brunt of the explosion if opening the door triggered a bomb, etc. So it's quite possible at least to me that things would have gone very differently if not for the diversion bomb.

Pretty sure once they didn't go off at 11:17am they knew that they were duds, but they probably were hoping real hard that they would explode. Plus NBK was about blowing it up and shooting the survivors. No evidence really points to them saying they planned to die in the explosion. I think the library was picked because they needed a perfect vantage point to shoot at police and a table to reload and gather which they did shortly after walking in. Plus I'm sure they knew that there are 50+ kids in there at any given time that are sitting ducks. I think they simply knew that the bombs were duds after they failed and had no choice but to go to their half ass "plan b".

slippy123 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

I've thought many times they may have expected the bombs to go off during the library massacre. They said multiple times that everyone in there was gonna die from the explosion. That's the only way that would've happened. They didn't even go straight to the bombs when they left, and I'm sure they knew people would run out of there. It would also explain their confidence when they entered as reported by the witnesses. No need to worry about cops entering if the library is going to collapse. It would also explain why they chose the library. It means shooting at the bombs wasn't their first suicide attempt, walking into the library was. This also calls into question the standard "they started shooting when the bombs did not go off". They may have thought they were bound to go off. Indeed, it is hard for me at least to imagine why they would start shooting if they didn't think that.

As for the diversion bomb, it was pipe bombs, aerosol canisters, and propane tanks in two backpacks. Just some of the pipe bombs and aerosol canister went off. It didn't make much of a fire, so it was not much of a diversion. However, the details of the bombs were relayed to police at the school as to what to watch out for, and they claim it had motion detection capabilities. That's hard to believe, but that's what they said, and that has me strongly suspect it was part of why the cops did not enter the school, and feared "booby traps" and wanted to use the fire truck to ram into the door to take the brunt of the explosion if opening the door triggered a bomb, etc. So it's quite possible at least to me that things would have gone very differently if not for the diversion bomb.

Pretty sure once they didn't go off at 11:17am they knew that they were duds, but they probably were hoping real hard that they would explode. Plus NBK was about blowing it up and shooting the survivors. No evidence really points to them saying they planned to die in the explosion. I think the library was picked because they needed a perfect vantage point to shoot at police and a table to reload and gather which they did shortly after walking in(verified by many survivors). Plus I'm sure they knew that there are 50+ kids in there at any given time that are sitting ducks. I think they simply knew that the bombs were duds after they failed and had no choice but to go to their half ass "plan b".

Dylan was there to commit suicide period.. I don't think he cared how he died he just wanted his life to end.

rebel2013 wrote:

Dylan was there to commit suicide period.. I don't think he cared how he died he just wanted his life to end.

Agreed.

rebel2013 wrote:

Dylan was there to commit suicide period.. I don't think he cared how he died he just wanted his life to end.

They both went to the school to commit suicide there. The specific plan was to blow up the cafeteria, shoot the survivors, and die by a police shootout. No evidence points to them planing to die by their own bombs. When they shot at the bombs they stood far away, if they were trying to die they would of stood right next to them and tried to make them explode. They simply wanted to cause as much damage to that school before the cops came in or they put the guns to their own heads. NBK was a specific plan, that they tried to follow to a tee. Their bombs failed and they knew this, so they went to their badly planned plan b. Dylan cared enough to shoot himself cleanly with his tec 9, when he could of taken his shotgun and blew his face apart like Eric did. I'm pretty sure Dylan also was found with a bullet in his boot to kill himself with if he happened to run out of ammo.

[quote="slippy123"]

rebel2013 wrote:

Dylan was there to commit suicide period.. I don't think he cared how he died he just wanted his life to end.

Well yeah, they both went to the school to commit suicide there. The specific plan was to blow up the cafeteria, shoot the survivors, and die in a police shootout. No evidence points to them planing to die by their own bombs. When they failed to go off they knew they were duds, and one of them exclaimed "plan b". When they shot at the bombs they stood far enough away, if they were trying to die by them, they would of stood right next to them and tried to make them explode. They simply wanted to cause as much damage to that school before the cops came in or they put the guns to their own heads. NBK was a specific plan, that they tried to follow to a tee. Their bombs failed and they knew this, so they went to their badly planned plan b. Dylan cared enough to shoot himself cleanly with his tec 9, when he could of taken his shotgun and blew his face apart like Eric did. I'm pretty sure Dylan also was found with a bullet in his boot to kill himself with if he happened to run out of ammo, further showing they planned to die by self inflicted gunshot if the police didn't enter the school.

slippy123 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

I've thought many times they may have expected the bombs to go off during the library massacre. They said multiple times that everyone in there was gonna die from the explosion. That's the only way that would've happened. They didn't even go straight to the bombs when they left, and I'm sure they knew people would run out of there. It would also explain their confidence when they entered as reported by the witnesses. No need to worry about cops entering if the library is going to collapse. It would also explain why they chose the library. It means shooting at the bombs wasn't their first suicide attempt, walking into the library was. This also calls into question the standard "they started shooting when the bombs did not go off". They may have thought they were bound to go off. Indeed, it is hard for me at least to imagine why they would start shooting if they didn't think that.

As for the diversion bomb, it was pipe bombs, aerosol canisters, and propane tanks in two backpacks. Just some of the pipe bombs and aerosol canister went off. It didn't make much of a fire, so it was not much of a diversion. However, the details of the bombs were relayed to police at the school as to what to watch out for, and they claim it had motion detection capabilities. That's hard to believe, but that's what they said, and that has me strongly suspect it was part of why the cops did not enter the school, and feared "booby traps" and wanted to use the fire truck to ram into the door to take the brunt of the explosion if opening the door triggered a bomb, etc. So it's quite possible at least to me that things would have gone very differently if not for the diversion bomb.

Pretty sure once they didn't go off at 11:17am they knew that they were duds, but they probably were hoping real hard that they would explode. Plus NBK was about blowing it up and shooting the survivors. No evidence really points to them saying they planned to die in the explosion. I think the library was picked because they needed a perfect vantage point to shoot at police and a table to reload and gather which they did shortly after walking in. Plus I'm sure they knew that there are 50+ kids in there at any given time that are sitting ducks. I think they simply knew that the bombs were duds after they failed and had no choice but to go to their half ass "plan b".

Well I said "may" for a reason. It's far from the only theory, and it's more common to say what you said.

That said:
"Pretty sure once they didn't go off at 11:17am they knew that they were duds"
Maybe, and probably should have but:
1) e. g. Krabbe points out that the clocks weren't to-the-minute precise, and they would have known that. So, if that's true, then they would not have known by 11:18 that they were duds.

2) Throughout the library massacre, they seem confident the bombs will explode. "everyone's gonna die; we're gonna blow up the school anyway", but this contradicts "plan B" where they have written off the bombs by 11:18

3) Why move to plan B only 2 (or 5, depending on who you ask) minutes after the bombs failed? If you had planned your 'masterpiece' for a year, and had a diversion set up, might you wait a little while longer?

4) They could not see the cafeteria from their vantage point atop the stairs. Also, just like with 2), Dylan supposedly checked on the bombs after descending the stairs. But wait, I thought plan B meant they had written off the bombs? What's to check? I think opening fire 2 or 5 minutes after they were set to explode, and then once they could see the cafeteria checking on the bombs, is at least consistent with thinking they had gone off or were about to do so.

"No evidence really points to them saying they planned to die in the explosion. "
Well, we don't really know where they planned to die had the cafeteria bombs gone off, but:

1) We know they died in the library where most of the massacre took place. Could they have wanted to die among their victims, say in the cafeteria? Did they want to die while "knee deep in the dead"?  

2) If so, but the bombs had gone off after everyone had fled the cafeteria, and taken out the pillars and brought the library down, wouldn't the next choice have been the library? Again, they literally say the people in the library are going to die in the explosion. The only way that was happening is if they went off and brought the library down while they were in there shooting people. Surely they knew once they left the library that the students would also.

3) Witnesses say they were surprised how confident they were in the way they entered the library. At least one possibility is they were  expecting to die when the library fell from the explosion, and so had no worries about cops rushing in or anything else.

4) As surely you know, they seem to be caught on the CCTV trying to die in the explosion in the cafeteria.  Is that not some evidence?

5) Also, perhaps there is no evidence aside from 4) that they planned to die in the cafeteria explosion, but there does seem to be evidence they entertained the idea of dying from explosions rather than gunfire.  Dylan talked of tying the pipe bomb "Atlanta" around his neck and lighting it to commit suicide. The "It's gonna be like the LA riots, OKC, Duke, Doom, etc all mixed together" quote from Eric comes after him outlining the massacre with just 'crickets' and 'smoke bombs' and the like, without any firearms.

"I think the library was picked because they needed a perfect vantage point to shoot at police and a table to reload and gather which they did shortly after walking in. "

Yeah, quite possibly. But you pointed out there walking by the library might have been for fear the bombs were going to go off and the library was going to collapse. That gels nicely with the above.

Also, it really does not seem like their first concern was killing cops. That's brought up after they talk about revenge, the white hats, etc, after shooting at least two people and walking to the other side. It seems at least consistent that they did not consider it a vantage point to kill cops until they saw them out the windows.

Another thing to consider, as outlined e. g. in the article "Lessons from Columbine: Virtual and Real Rage", which perhaps controversially puts a lot of the blame for the massacre on their isolation, computer gaming, and then being grounded and cut off from the computer at various times such as the van incident, is how they shot at computers, tvs, etc and people who were at the computers. That's another reason which is at least on the table for why they chose the library.

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

I've thought many times they may have expected the bombs to go off during the library massacre. They said multiple times that everyone in there was gonna die from the explosion. That's the only way that would've happened. They didn't even go straight to the bombs when they left, and I'm sure they knew people would run out of there. It would also explain their confidence when they entered as reported by the witnesses. No need to worry about cops entering if the library is going to collapse. It would also explain why they chose the library. It means shooting at the bombs wasn't their first suicide attempt, walking into the library was. This also calls into question the standard "they started shooting when the bombs did not go off". They may have thought they were bound to go off. Indeed, it is hard for me at least to imagine why they would start shooting if they didn't think that.

As for the diversion bomb, it was pipe bombs, aerosol canisters, and propane tanks in two backpacks. Just some of the pipe bombs and aerosol canister went off. It didn't make much of a fire, so it was not much of a diversion. However, the details of the bombs were relayed to police at the school as to what to watch out for, and they claim it had motion detection capabilities. That's hard to believe, but that's what they said, and that has me strongly suspect it was part of why the cops did not enter the school, and feared "booby traps" and wanted to use the fire truck to ram into the door to take the brunt of the explosion if opening the door triggered a bomb, etc. So it's quite possible at least to me that things would have gone very differently if not for the diversion bomb.

Pretty sure once they didn't go off at 11:17am they knew that they were duds, but they probably were hoping real hard that they would explode. Plus NBK was about blowing it up and shooting the survivors. No evidence really points to them saying they planned to die in the explosion. I think the library was picked because they needed a perfect vantage point to shoot at police and a table to reload and gather which they did shortly after walking in. Plus I'm sure they knew that there are 50+ kids in there at any given time that are sitting ducks. I think they simply knew that the bombs were duds after they failed and had no choice but to go to their half ass "plan b".

Well I said "may" for a reason. It's far from the only theory, and it's more common to say what you said.

That said:
"Pretty sure once they didn't go off at 11:17am they knew that they were duds"
Maybe, and probably should have but:
1) e. g. Krabbe points out that the clocks weren't to-the-minute precise, and they would have known that. So, if that's true, then they would not have known by 11:18 that they were duds.

2) Throughout the library massacre, they seem confident the bombs will explode. "everyone's gonna die; we're gonna blow up the school anyway", but this contradicts "plan B" where they have written off the bombs by 11:18

3) Why move to plan B only 2 (or 5, depending on who you ask) minutes after the bombs failed? If you had planned your 'masterpiece' for a year, and had a diversion set up, might you wait a little while longer?

4) They could not see the cafeteria from their vantage point atop the stairs. Also, just like with 2), Dylan supposedly checked on the bombs after descending the stairs. But wait, I thought plan B meant they had written off the bombs? What's to check? I think opening fire 2 or 5 minutes after they were set to explode, and then once they could see the cafeteria checking on the bombs, is at least consistent with thinking they had gone off or were about to do so.

"No evidence really points to them saying they planned to die in the explosion. "
Well, we don't really know where they planned to die had the cafeteria bombs gone off, but:

1) We know they died in the library where most of the massacre took place. Could they have wanted to die among their victims, say in the cafeteria? Did they want to die while "knee deep in the dead"?  

2) If so, but the bombs had gone off after everyone had fled the cafeteria, and taken out the pillars and brought the library down, wouldn't the next choice have been the library? Again, they literally say the people in the library are going to die in the explosion. The only way that was happening is if they went off and brought the library down while they were in there shooting people. Surely they knew once they left the library that the students would also.

3) Witnesses say they were surprised how confident they were in the way they entered the library. At least one possibility is they were  expecting to die when the library fell from the explosion, and so had no worries about cops rushing in or anything else.

4) As surely you know, they seem to be caught on the CCTV trying to die in the explosion in the cafeteria.  Is that not some evidence?

5) Also, perhaps there is no evidence aside from 4) that they planned to die in the cafeteria explosion, but there does seem to be evidence they entertained the idea of dying from explosions rather than gunfire.  Dylan talked of tying the pipe bomb "Atlanta" around his neck and lighting it to commit suicide. The "It's gonna be like the LA riots, OKC, Duke, Doom, etc all mixed together" quote from Eric comes after him outlining the massacre with just 'crickets' and 'smoke bombs' and the like, without any firearms.

"I think the library was picked because they needed a perfect vantage point to shoot at police and a table to reload and gather which they did shortly after walking in. "

Yeah, quite possibly. But you pointed out there walking by the library might have been for fear the bombs were going to go off and the library was going to collapse. That gels nicely with the above.

Also, it really does not seem like their first concern was killing cops. That's brought up after they talk about revenge, the white hats, etc, after shooting at least two people and walking to the other side. It seems at least consistent that they did not consider it a vantage point to kill cops until they saw them out the windows.

Another thing to consider, as outlined e. g. in the article "Lessons from Columbine: Virtual and Real Rage", which perhaps controversially puts a lot of the blame for the massacre on their isolation, computer gaming, and then being grounded and cut off from the computer at various times such as the van incident, is how they shot at computers, tvs, etc and people who were at the computers. That's another reason which is at least on the table for why they chose the library.

1. Clock timers are very precise, they are wired to go off at an exact time, that is the point of a clock timer. It is possible the timers could of been a minute or two ahead or behind at most. How would Krabe even know a fact like that without physically having the clocks they used in his possession? They walked into the library a little under 15 minutes after planting the bombs. I don't think they had a specific area in the school where they planned to die. Afterall they banked on the bombs going off and dying in a police shootout. It just so happened that they had some ammo left and most students had evacuated the school and library at that point so they went back to shoot at some cops with the remaining ammo and decided to end it in the library.

2. Eric makes this statement to Bree Pasquale directly after breaking his nose from the blast killing Cassie. He is seen by witnesses as groggy, and out of it and has trouble even balancing on his feet as he is crouched down. He is simply talking shit explaining his plan to try and cement his power and god complex. He was on a major power trip. The bombs wouldn't of done much damage to the cafeteria let alone blow up the school. Eric spoke on shooting kids running out and Dylan mentioned charging the halls.

3. Because they were set for an exact time and they knew they weren't going to detonate when the time passed. A clock timer is specifically meant for an exact time. If you set it to 11:17 and it doesn't go off within a few minute window there is a 95% chance the timers were duds. On top of that if someone were to find the bombs the whole school would of been evacuated thus destroying their whole plan. They knew their bomb making skills weren't the best which is why they made a plan b. They knew they had to get in there and start killing before someone found those bags. They weren't going to go back in there and take the bombs back and do it another day. They had no choice.

4. As I stated above they are far enough away when shooting at the bombs to avoid being hurt. If they sat down in front of them maybe I'd think different. Even if it was an attempt at suicide this was AFTER the library massacre thus showing they didn't want to enter the school and just die by explosion right away. They wanted to shoot kids and cause as much damage as they could before police entered. I believe they shot at the bombs to try and get them to detonate to at least give them the sense that the bombing aspect of NBK wasn't a complete failure. It was just to cause as much damage to the school as they could. Why risk blowing a limb off and going through a painful death when they had guns where they'd die an instant painless death? If that was the case they could of lit a pipe bomb around their necks as you stated.

5. Dylan was probably talking shit when he said that, just as Eric was when he said he wanted to fly a plane into NYC skyscrapers and escape to another country. Dylan killed himself with a clean shot from his Tec, when he could of taken half his head off with his shotgun. He saw the damage the shotgun did to Eric, and chose a smaller caliber gun. They had pipe bombs so if this was the case why didn't he do it? All mindless shit talk. Saying it will be like the LA riots, OKC and such is just him putting into perspective the damage and carnage he wants to ensue. Dylan also states that it will be the most intense "15 mins" of his life further showing they planned for the cops to be on the scene fast and they would die from the shootout. He also had a bullet in his boot to kill himself with in case he ran out of ammo which makes me think he really wanted to die by his own self inflicted gunshot.

6. It wasn't their main concern to kill cops, but seeing as basically the first thing they did when entering the library full of kids was to shoot out the windows at cops, then coming back before committing suicide to shoot at them again, and putting bombs in their cars to go off when they were searched by police shows it was of some concern. I feel that deep down they knew that propane bombs wouldn't do that much damage but they just hyped themselves up. I think they both knew that those bombs wouldn't take the library down, but it was the best bomb they could make with their resources.

I think they did intend to enter the school after the bombing. One of them said in their notebooks: “after the bombs are set and were waiting to charge through the school, seconds will be like hours.” Maybe they just said that in the zero hour documentary and they didn’t really write that, I don’t remember, it’s been a long time since I’ve read their journals.

DanielGardner wrote:

I think they did intend to enter the school after the bombing. One of them said in their notebooks: “after the bombs are set and were waiting to charge through the school, seconds will be like hours.” Maybe they just said that in the zero hour documentary and they didn’t really write that, I don’t remember, it’s been a long time since I’ve read their journals.

That's Dylan and in the Basement Tapes rather than their journals, but otherwise you are certainly correct. I've cited that before as well.  I am fairly confident they were going to shoot those fleeing the cafeteria out into the parking lot, and then enter the school via the west entrance once people realized that was a death sentence and began to run the other way, up the cafeteria stairs. The bombs didn't go off, and Dave Sanders told them to run up the stairs. Dylan saw this when he descended the stairs and checked on the bombs. He told Eric. Then they enter the school via the west entrance.

This contradicts the usual narrative about shooting from their cars being plan A. I think that makes no sense precisely because of the option for people to run the other direction, as well as getting hit by glass and such from the cafeteria. No witness says they returned to their cars waited by their cars, several say they waited up on the stairs.  Also, supposedly the reason for thinking that was plan A is because their cars flanked the exits, but I don't even think that's true. Even if it is, I don't buy it.

A lot of people would (understandably) love to know what Eric and Dylan said before their suicides. I would personally be very interested to know what they said as they were standing there, waiting for the bombs to go off, and then what was said after they failed to do so.

slippy123 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

I've thought many times they may have expected the bombs to go off during the library massacre. They said multiple times that everyone in there was gonna die from the explosion. That's the only way that would've happened. They didn't even go straight to the bombs when they left, and I'm sure they knew people would run out of there. It would also explain their confidence when they entered as reported by the witnesses. No need to worry about cops entering if the library is going to collapse. It would also explain why they chose the library. It means shooting at the bombs wasn't their first suicide attempt, walking into the library was. This also calls into question the standard "they started shooting when the bombs did not go off". They may have thought they were bound to go off. Indeed, it is hard for me at least to imagine why they would start shooting if they didn't think that.

As for the diversion bomb, it was pipe bombs, aerosol canisters, and propane tanks in two backpacks. Just some of the pipe bombs and aerosol canister went off. It didn't make much of a fire, so it was not much of a diversion. However, the details of the bombs were relayed to police at the school as to what to watch out for, and they claim it had motion detection capabilities. That's hard to believe, but that's what they said, and that has me strongly suspect it was part of why the cops did not enter the school, and feared "booby traps" and wanted to use the fire truck to ram into the door to take the brunt of the explosion if opening the door triggered a bomb, etc. So it's quite possible at least to me that things would have gone very differently if not for the diversion bomb.

Pretty sure once they didn't go off at 11:17am they knew that they were duds, but they probably were hoping real hard that they would explode. Plus NBK was about blowing it up and shooting the survivors. No evidence really points to them saying they planned to die in the explosion. I think the library was picked because they needed a perfect vantage point to shoot at police and a table to reload and gather which they did shortly after walking in. Plus I'm sure they knew that there are 50+ kids in there at any given time that are sitting ducks. I think they simply knew that the bombs were duds after they failed and had no choice but to go to their half ass "plan b".

Well I said "may" for a reason. It's far from the only theory, and it's more common to say what you said.

That said:
"Pretty sure once they didn't go off at 11:17am they knew that they were duds"
Maybe, and probably should have but:
1) e. g. Krabbe points out that the clocks weren't to-the-minute precise, and they would have known that. So, if that's true, then they would not have known by 11:18 that they were duds.

2) Throughout the library massacre, they seem confident the bombs will explode. "everyone's gonna die; we're gonna blow up the school anyway", but this contradicts "plan B" where they have written off the bombs by 11:18

3) Why move to plan B only 2 (or 5, depending on who you ask) minutes after the bombs failed? If you had planned your 'masterpiece' for a year, and had a diversion set up, might you wait a little while longer?

4) They could not see the cafeteria from their vantage point atop the stairs. Also, just like with 2), Dylan supposedly checked on the bombs after descending the stairs. But wait, I thought plan B meant they had written off the bombs? What's to check? I think opening fire 2 or 5 minutes after they were set to explode, and then once they could see the cafeteria checking on the bombs, is at least consistent with thinking they had gone off or were about to do so.

"No evidence really points to them saying they planned to die in the explosion. "
Well, we don't really know where they planned to die had the cafeteria bombs gone off, but:

1) We know they died in the library where most of the massacre took place. Could they have wanted to die among their victims, say in the cafeteria? Did they want to die while "knee deep in the dead"?  

2) If so, but the bombs had gone off after everyone had fled the cafeteria, and taken out the pillars and brought the library down, wouldn't the next choice have been the library? Again, they literally say the people in the library are going to die in the explosion. The only way that was happening is if they went off and brought the library down while they were in there shooting people. Surely they knew once they left the library that the students would also.

3) Witnesses say they were surprised how confident they were in the way they entered the library. At least one possibility is they were  expecting to die when the library fell from the explosion, and so had no worries about cops rushing in or anything else.

4) As surely you know, they seem to be caught on the CCTV trying to die in the explosion in the cafeteria.  Is that not some evidence?

5) Also, perhaps there is no evidence aside from 4) that they planned to die in the cafeteria explosion, but there does seem to be evidence they entertained the idea of dying from explosions rather than gunfire.  Dylan talked of tying the pipe bomb "Atlanta" around his neck and lighting it to commit suicide. The "It's gonna be like the LA riots, OKC, Duke, Doom, etc all mixed together" quote from Eric comes after him outlining the massacre with just 'crickets' and 'smoke bombs' and the like, without any firearms.

"I think the library was picked because they needed a perfect vantage point to shoot at police and a table to reload and gather which they did shortly after walking in. "

Yeah, quite possibly. But you pointed out there walking by the library might have been for fear the bombs were going to go off and the library was going to collapse. That gels nicely with the above.

Also, it really does not seem like their first concern was killing cops. That's brought up after they talk about revenge, the white hats, etc, after shooting at least two people and walking to the other side. It seems at least consistent that they did not consider it a vantage point to kill cops until they saw them out the windows.

Another thing to consider, as outlined e. g. in the article "Lessons from Columbine: Virtual and Real Rage", which perhaps controversially puts a lot of the blame for the massacre on their isolation, computer gaming, and then being grounded and cut off from the computer at various times such as the van incident, is how they shot at computers, tvs, etc and people who were at the computers. That's another reason which is at least on the table for why they chose the library.

1. Clock timers are very precise, they are wired to go off at an exact time, that is the point of a clock timer. It is possible the timers could of been a minute or two ahead or behind at most. How would Krabe even know a fact like that without physically having the clocks they used in his possession? They walked into the library a little under 15 minutes after planting the bombs. I don't think they had a specific area in the school where they planned to die. Afterall they banked on the bombs going off and dying in a police shootout. It just so happened that they had some ammo left and most students had evacuated the school and library at that point so they went back to shoot at some cops with the remaining ammo and decided to end it in the library.

2. Eric makes this statement to Bree Pasquale directly after breaking his nose from the blast killing Cassie. He is seen by witnesses as groggy, and out of it and has trouble even balancing on his feet as he is crouched down. He is simply talking shit explaining his plan to try and cement his power and god complex. He was on a major power trip. The bombs wouldn't of done much damage to the cafeteria let alone blow up the school. Eric spoke on shooting kids running out and Dylan mentioned charging the halls.

3. Because they were set for an exact time and they knew they weren't going to detonate when the time passed. A clock timer is specifically meant for an exact time. If you set it to 11:17 and it doesn't go off within a few minute window there is a 95% chance the timers were duds. On top of that if someone were to find the bombs the whole school would of been evacuated thus destroying their whole plan. They knew their bomb making skills weren't the best which is why they made a plan b. They knew they had to get in there and start killing before someone found those bags. They weren't going to go back in there and take the bombs back and do it another day. They had no choice.

4. As I stated above they are far enough away when shooting at the bombs to avoid being hurt. If they sat down in front of them maybe I'd think different. Even if it was an attempt at suicide this was AFTER the library massacre thus showing they didn't want to enter the school and just die by explosion right away. They wanted to shoot kids and cause as much damage as they could before police entered. I believe they shot at the bombs to try and get them to detonate to at least give them the sense that the bombing aspect of NBK wasn't a complete failure. It was just to cause as much damage to the school as they could. Why risk blowing a limb off and going through a painful death when they had guns where they'd die an instant painless death? If that was the case they could of lit a pipe bomb around their necks as you stated.

5. Dylan was probably talking shit when he said that, just as Eric was when he said he wanted to fly a plane into NYC skyscrapers and escape to another country. Dylan killed himself with a clean shot from his Tec, when he could of taken half his head off with his shotgun. He saw the damage the shotgun did to Eric, and chose a smaller caliber gun. They had pipe bombs so if this was the case why didn't he do it? All mindless shit talk. Saying it will be like the LA riots, OKC and such is just him putting into perspective the damage and carnage he wants to ensue. Dylan also states that it will be the most intense "15 mins" of his life further showing they planned for the cops to be on the scene fast and they would die from the shootout. He also had a bullet in his boot to kill himself with in case he ran out of ammo which makes me think he really wanted to die by his own self inflicted gunshot.

6. It wasn't their main concern to kill cops, but seeing as basically the first thing they did when entering the library full of kids was to shoot out the windows at cops, then coming back before committing suicide to shoot at them again, and putting bombs in their cars to go off when they were searched by police shows it was of some concern. I feel that deep down they knew that propane bombs wouldn't do that much damage but they just hyped themselves up. I think they both knew that those bombs wouldn't take the library down, but it was the best bomb they could make with their resources.

1) The point of clock timers is to time when the bombs go off yeah obviously, but I am not sure how precise they are.  We know the clocks they used, and they weren't digital clocks.  I don't think they planned on dying during a police shootout over and above shooting themselves or blowing themselves up. I think either one was on the table. Indeed, if they were so set on dying in a police shootout, they would have just walked outside and engaged the cops, rather than be on video ready to die in the cafeteria explosion, or shooting themselves in the library. You said it yourself, Dylan had a bullet in his boot to shoot himself.  I think it's more like they were ready to die by whatever means and also wanted to kill cops in a shootout.

2) The statement to Bree is not the only time they said the library was going to blow up while they were in there, and I simply don't agree with it being a lie he told as part of his god complex or whatever. They had bombs underneath the library. They said they were going to blow the library up. They said everybody they did not shoot was going to die anyway from the explosion. Also, pet peeve and I'm not judging you for it, but because others might it's "would have" or "would've" not "would of".

3) See 1), they weren't digital clocks. I'm not sure they were "set to 11:17" as much as "set between the 3 and the 4".  I don't disagree that they were not going to remove the bombs and try another day.

4) This is simply false. If the bombs had gone off when Eric shot at them, they'd be dead in the explosion. If they went off when Dylan threw a molotov at them and Eric is taking a drink, they were even closer, and would be dead. If they went off when Dylan went literally right up to them and they were even closer, they'd be dead. They also went into the kitchen, and two days later they found bombs in the kitchen. Again, they probably tried to set them off, and if they went off, they'd be dead.

5) I don't think that's Dylan talking shit like Eric's fantasy about "weird as shit luck". I think that's just Dylan being suicidal and having a pipe bomb in his room. And Eric literally said in April of 99 they would go into the cafeteria with a bunch of bombs but he wasn't sure if he could get firearms yet. Assuming suicide was still part of the plan, then they had to be prepared to die from a bomb.

miketheratguy wrote:

A lot of people would (understandably) love to know what Eric and Dylan said before their suicides. I would personally be very interested to know what they said as they were standing there, waiting for the bombs to go off, and then what was said after they failed to do so.

I know this had been discussed a few times in other threads, but I would also like to know IF E&D had even entertained the idea of the bombs failing?

We know that Eric seemed cocky in his ability to build the bombs, yet I have to wonder if in the back of his mind he worried about something not going as planned?

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

miketheratguy wrote:

A lot of people would (understandably) love to know what Eric and Dylan said before their suicides. I would personally be very interested to know what they said as they were standing there, waiting for the bombs to go off, and then what was said after they failed to do so.

I know this had been discussed a few times in other threads, but I would also like to know IF E&D had even entertained the idea of the bombs failing?

Me too. It seems the usual narrative (e. g. Cullen) is a mess: "They were so cocky they had not even considered plan B. They planned to shoot from their cars, then when the bombs didn't go off after two minutes they enacted plan B, and went to the stairs and started shooting." Huh?

cakeman wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

miketheratguy wrote:

A lot of people would (understandably) love to know what Eric and Dylan said before their suicides. I would personally be very interested to know what they said as they were standing there, waiting for the bombs to go off, and then what was said after they failed to do so.

I know this had been discussed a few times in other threads, but I would also like to know IF E&D had even entertained the idea of the bombs failing?

Me too. It seems the usual narrative (e. g. Cullen) is a mess: "They were so cocky they had not even considered plan B. They planned to shoot from their cars, then when the bombs didn't go off after two minutes they enacted plan B, and went to the stairs and started shooting." Huh?

LOL! Well Cullen is Cullen and nothing more needs to be said.

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

I've thought many times they may have expected the bombs to go off during the library massacre. They said multiple times that everyone in there was gonna die from the explosion. That's the only way that would've happened. They didn't even go straight to the bombs when they left, and I'm sure they knew people would run out of there. It would also explain their confidence when they entered as reported by the witnesses. No need to worry about cops entering if the library is going to collapse. It would also explain why they chose the library. It means shooting at the bombs wasn't their first suicide attempt, walking into the library was. This also calls into question the standard "they started shooting when the bombs did not go off". They may have thought they were bound to go off. Indeed, it is hard for me at least to imagine why they would start shooting if they didn't think that.

As for the diversion bomb, it was pipe bombs, aerosol canisters, and propane tanks in two backpacks. Just some of the pipe bombs and aerosol canister went off. It didn't make much of a fire, so it was not much of a diversion. However, the details of the bombs were relayed to police at the school as to what to watch out for, and they claim it had motion detection capabilities. That's hard to believe, but that's what they said, and that has me strongly suspect it was part of why the cops did not enter the school, and feared "booby traps" and wanted to use the fire truck to ram into the door to take the brunt of the explosion if opening the door triggered a bomb, etc. So it's quite possible at least to me that things would have gone very differently if not for the diversion bomb.

Pretty sure once they didn't go off at 11:17am they knew that they were duds, but they probably were hoping real hard that they would explode. Plus NBK was about blowing it up and shooting the survivors. No evidence really points to them saying they planned to die in the explosion. I think the library was picked because they needed a perfect vantage point to shoot at police and a table to reload and gather which they did shortly after walking in. Plus I'm sure they knew that there are 50+ kids in there at any given time that are sitting ducks. I think they simply knew that the bombs were duds after they failed and had no choice but to go to their half ass "plan b".

Well I said "may" for a reason. It's far from the only theory, and it's more common to say what you said.

That said:
"Pretty sure once they didn't go off at 11:17am they knew that they were duds"
Maybe, and probably should have but:
1) e. g. Krabbe points out that the clocks weren't to-the-minute precise, and they would have known that. So, if that's true, then they would not have known by 11:18 that they were duds.

2) Throughout the library massacre, they seem confident the bombs will explode. "everyone's gonna die; we're gonna blow up the school anyway", but this contradicts "plan B" where they have written off the bombs by 11:18

3) Why move to plan B only 2 (or 5, depending on who you ask) minutes after the bombs failed? If you had planned your 'masterpiece' for a year, and had a diversion set up, might you wait a little while longer?

4) They could not see the cafeteria from their vantage point atop the stairs. Also, just like with 2), Dylan supposedly checked on the bombs after descending the stairs. But wait, I thought plan B meant they had written off the bombs? What's to check? I think opening fire 2 or 5 minutes after they were set to explode, and then once they could see the cafeteria checking on the bombs, is at least consistent with thinking they had gone off or were about to do so.

"No evidence really points to them saying they planned to die in the explosion. "
Well, we don't really know where they planned to die had the cafeteria bombs gone off, but:

1) We know they died in the library where most of the massacre took place. Could they have wanted to die among their victims, say in the cafeteria? Did they want to die while "knee deep in the dead"?  

2) If so, but the bombs had gone off after everyone had fled the cafeteria, and taken out the pillars and brought the library down, wouldn't the next choice have been the library? Again, they literally say the people in the library are going to die in the explosion. The only way that was happening is if they went off and brought the library down while they were in there shooting people. Surely they knew once they left the library that the students would also.

3) Witnesses say they were surprised how confident they were in the way they entered the library. At least one possibility is they were  expecting to die when the library fell from the explosion, and so had no worries about cops rushing in or anything else.

4) As surely you know, they seem to be caught on the CCTV trying to die in the explosion in the cafeteria.  Is that not some evidence?

5) Also, perhaps there is no evidence aside from 4) that they planned to die in the cafeteria explosion, but there does seem to be evidence they entertained the idea of dying from explosions rather than gunfire.  Dylan talked of tying the pipe bomb "Atlanta" around his neck and lighting it to commit suicide. The "It's gonna be like the LA riots, OKC, Duke, Doom, etc all mixed together" quote from Eric comes after him outlining the massacre with just 'crickets' and 'smoke bombs' and the like, without any firearms.

"I think the library was picked because they needed a perfect vantage point to shoot at police and a table to reload and gather which they did shortly after walking in. "

Yeah, quite possibly. But you pointed out there walking by the library might have been for fear the bombs were going to go off and the library was going to collapse. That gels nicely with the above.

Also, it really does not seem like their first concern was killing cops. That's brought up after they talk about revenge, the white hats, etc, after shooting at least two people and walking to the other side. It seems at least consistent that they did not consider it a vantage point to kill cops until they saw them out the windows.

Another thing to consider, as outlined e. g. in the article "Lessons from Columbine: Virtual and Real Rage", which perhaps controversially puts a lot of the blame for the massacre on their isolation, computer gaming, and then being grounded and cut off from the computer at various times such as the van incident, is how they shot at computers, tvs, etc and people who were at the computers. That's another reason which is at least on the table for why they chose the library.

1. Clock timers are very precise, they are wired to go off at an exact time, that is the point of a clock timer. It is possible the timers could of been a minute or two ahead or behind at most. How would Krabe even know a fact like that without physically having the clocks they used in his possession? They walked into the library a little under 15 minutes after planting the bombs. I don't think they had a specific area in the school where they planned to die. Afterall they banked on the bombs going off and dying in a police shootout. It just so happened that they had some ammo left and most students had evacuated the school and library at that point so they went back to shoot at some cops with the remaining ammo and decided to end it in the library.

2. Eric makes this statement to Bree Pasquale directly after breaking his nose from the blast killing Cassie. He is seen by witnesses as groggy, and out of it and has trouble even balancing on his feet as he is crouched down. He is simply talking shit explaining his plan to try and cement his power and god complex. He was on a major power trip. The bombs wouldn't of done much damage to the cafeteria let alone blow up the school. Eric spoke on shooting kids running out and Dylan mentioned charging the halls.

3. Because they were set for an exact time and they knew they weren't going to detonate when the time passed. A clock timer is specifically meant for an exact time. If you set it to 11:17 and it doesn't go off within a few minute window there is a 95% chance the timers were duds. On top of that if someone were to find the bombs the whole school would of been evacuated thus destroying their whole plan. They knew their bomb making skills weren't the best which is why they made a plan b. They knew they had to get in there and start killing before someone found those bags. They weren't going to go back in there and take the bombs back and do it another day. They had no choice.

4. As I stated above they are far enough away when shooting at the bombs to avoid being hurt. If they sat down in front of them maybe I'd think different. Even if it was an attempt at suicide this was AFTER the library massacre thus showing they didn't want to enter the school and just die by explosion right away. They wanted to shoot kids and cause as much damage as they could before police entered. I believe they shot at the bombs to try and get them to detonate to at least give them the sense that the bombing aspect of NBK wasn't a complete failure. It was just to cause as much damage to the school as they could. Why risk blowing a limb off and going through a painful death when they had guns where they'd die an instant painless death? If that was the case they could of lit a pipe bomb around their necks as you stated.

5. Dylan was probably talking shit when he said that, just as Eric was when he said he wanted to fly a plane into NYC skyscrapers and escape to another country. Dylan killed himself with a clean shot from his Tec, when he could of taken half his head off with his shotgun. He saw the damage the shotgun did to Eric, and chose a smaller caliber gun. They had pipe bombs so if this was the case why didn't he do it? All mindless shit talk. Saying it will be like the LA riots, OKC and such is just him putting into perspective the damage and carnage he wants to ensue. Dylan also states that it will be the most intense "15 mins" of his life further showing they planned for the cops to be on the scene fast and they would die from the shootout. He also had a bullet in his boot to kill himself with in case he ran out of ammo which makes me think he really wanted to die by his own self inflicted gunshot.

6. It wasn't their main concern to kill cops, but seeing as basically the first thing they did when entering the library full of kids was to shoot out the windows at cops, then coming back before committing suicide to shoot at them again, and putting bombs in their cars to go off when they were searched by police shows it was of some concern. I feel that deep down they knew that propane bombs wouldn't do that much damage but they just hyped themselves up. I think they both knew that those bombs wouldn't take the library down, but it was the best bomb they could make with their resources.

1) The point of clock timers is to time when the bombs go off yeah obviously, but I am not sure how precise they are.  We know the clocks they used, and they weren't digital clocks.  I don't think they planned on dying during a police shootout over and above shooting themselves or blowing themselves up. I think either one was on the table. Indeed, if they were so set on dying in a police shootout, they would have just walked outside and engaged the cops, rather than be on video ready to die in the cafeteria explosion, or shooting themselves in the library. You said it yourself, Dylan had a bullet in his boot to shoot himself.  I think it's more like they were ready to die by whatever means and also wanted to kill cops in a shootout.

2) The statement to Bree is not the only time they said the library was going to blow up while they were in there, and I simply don't agree with it being a lie he told as part of his god complex or whatever. They had bombs underneath the library. They said they were going to blow the library up. They said everybody they did not shoot was going to die anyway from the explosion. Also, pet peeve and I'm not judging you for it, but because others might it's "would have" or "would've" not "would of".

3) See 1), they weren't digital clocks. I'm not sure they were "set to 11:17" as much as "set between the 3 and the 4".  I don't disagree that they were not going to remove the bombs and try another day.

4) This is simply false. If the bombs had gone off when Eric shot at them, they'd be dead in the explosion. If they went off when Dylan threw a molotov at them and Eric is taking a drink, they were even closer, and would be dead. If they went off when Dylan went literally right up to them and they were even closer, they'd be dead. They also went into the kitchen, and two days later they found bombs in the kitchen. Again, they probably tried to set them off, and if they went off, they'd be dead.

5) I don't think that's Dylan talking shit like Eric's fantasy about "weird as shit luck". I think that's just Dylan being suicidal and having a pipe bomb in his room. And Eric literally said in April of 99 they would go into the cafeteria with a bunch of bombs but he wasn't sure if he could get firearms yet. Assuming suicide was still part of the plan, then they had to be prepared to die from a bomb.

1. They were well prepared to die in a police shootout and expected police interference, this is well documented. Dylan thought it would last 15 minutes before police entered. That is why I believe they did so much aimless wondering, because they didn't plan on having free roam of the school for so long. Digital or not makes zero difference. They were incompetent on bomb making period. What logical sense does it make to run out into a small army of cops and SWAT, when they can shoot them from a vantage point behind cover? Their plan was to destroy the school and anyone in it, and if they could add some police as "frags" then cool. Not run out stupidly and die. Dylan had a bullet in his boot because the whole point of being "godlike" is to go out by yourself on your own terms. Just because they were expecting a police shootout doesn't mean that is how they really wanted to go out.

2. I stand by what I said. Zero evidence that I've seen points to either of them planning to or wanting to die in the first explosion. No one said he was lying when he was yelling his banter, they said shit like that all throughout the library. They also said they should start knifing kids. Of course they said everyone is going to die, what are they going to tell them they are all going to be safe Appreciate the tip, but I don't worry about perfect grammar on the internet.

3. See 1. Again digital timer or not matters zilch. They were incompetent at explosive devices above pipe-bombs.

4. As I stated if they were right on top of them yes, from their distance not likely. Propane isn't a great combustible. It doesn't explode when shot. After shooting a propane tank full of holes there would be zero gas in there therefore a Molotov would do nothing. What bombs in the kitchen?

5. Don't really get what you're trying to say. He had pipe-bombs for a year before the massacre. If he was that suicidal he would of ended it then. Again after seeing the destruction the shotgun did to Eric, he chose to take the more clean way out which completely contradicts your point.

[quote="slippy123"]

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

I've thought many times they may have expected the bombs to go off during the library massacre. They said multiple times that everyone in there was gonna die from the explosion. That's the only way that would've happened. They didn't even go straight to the bombs when they left, and I'm sure they knew people would run out of there. It would also explain their confidence when they entered as reported by the witnesses. No need to worry about cops entering if the library is going to collapse. It would also explain why they chose the library. It means shooting at the bombs wasn't their first suicide attempt, walking into the library was. This also calls into question the standard "they started shooting when the bombs did not go off". They may have thought they were bound to go off. Indeed, it is hard for me at least to imagine why they would start shooting if they didn't think that.

As for the diversion bomb, it was pipe bombs, aerosol canisters, and propane tanks in two backpacks. Just some of the pipe bombs and aerosol canister went off. It didn't make much of a fire, so it was not much of a diversion. However, the details of the bombs were relayed to police at the school as to what to watch out for, and they claim it had motion detection capabilities. That's hard to believe, but that's what they said, and that has me strongly suspect it was part of why the cops did not enter the school, and feared "booby traps" and wanted to use the fire truck to ram into the door to take the brunt of the explosion if opening the door triggered a bomb, etc. So it's quite possible at least to me that things would have gone very differently if not for the diversion bomb.

Pretty sure once they didn't go off at 11:17am they knew that they were duds, but they probably were hoping real hard that they would explode. Plus NBK was about blowing it up and shooting the survivors. No evidence really points to them saying they planned to die in the explosion. I think the library was picked because they needed a perfect vantage point to shoot at police and a table to reload and gather which they did shortly after walking in. Plus I'm sure they knew that there are 50+ kids in there at any given time that are sitting ducks. I think they simply knew that the bombs were duds after they failed and had no choice but to go to their half ass "plan b".

Well I said "may" for a reason. It's far from the only theory, and it's more common to say what you said.

That said:
"Pretty sure once they didn't go off at 11:17am they knew that they were duds"
Maybe, and probably should have but:
1) e. g. Krabbe points out that the clocks weren't to-the-minute precise, and they would have known that. So, if that's true, then they would not have known by 11:18 that they were duds.

2) Throughout the library massacre, they seem confident the bombs will explode. "everyone's gonna die; we're gonna blow up the school anyway", but this contradicts "plan B" where they have written off the bombs by 11:18

3) Why move to plan B only 2 (or 5, depending on who you ask) minutes after the bombs failed? If you had planned your 'masterpiece' for a year, and had a diversion set up, might you wait a little while longer?

4) They could not see the cafeteria from their vantage point atop the stairs. Also, just like with 2), Dylan supposedly checked on the bombs after descending the stairs. But wait, I thought plan B meant they had written off the bombs? What's to check? I think opening fire 2 or 5 minutes after they were set to explode, and then once they could see the cafeteria checking on the bombs, is at least consistent with thinking they had gone off or were about to do so.

"No evidence really points to them saying they planned to die in the explosion. "
Well, we don't really know where they planned to die had the cafeteria bombs gone off, but:

1) We know they died in the library where most of the massacre took place. Could they have wanted to die among their victims, say in the cafeteria? Did they want to die while "knee deep in the dead"?  

2) If so, but the bombs had gone off after everyone had fled the cafeteria, and taken out the pillars and brought the library down, wouldn't the next choice have been the library? Again, they literally say the people in the library are going to die in the explosion. The only way that was happening is if they went off and brought the library down while they were in there shooting people. Surely they knew once they left the library that the students would also.

3) Witnesses say they were surprised how confident they were in the way they entered the library. At least one possibility is they were  expecting to die when the library fell from the explosion, and so had no worries about cops rushing in or anything else.

4) As surely you know, they seem to be caught on the CCTV trying to die in the explosion in the cafeteria.  Is that not some evidence?

5) Also, perhaps there is no evidence aside from 4) that they planned to die in the cafeteria explosion, but there does seem to be evidence they entertained the idea of dying from explosions rather than gunfire.  Dylan talked of tying the pipe bomb "Atlanta" around his neck and lighting it to commit suicide. The "It's gonna be like the LA riots, OKC, Duke, Doom, etc all mixed together" quote from Eric comes after him outlining the massacre with just 'crickets' and 'smoke bombs' and the like, without any firearms.

"I think the library was picked because they needed a perfect vantage point to shoot at police and a table to reload and gather which they did shortly after walking in. "

Yeah, quite possibly. But you pointed out there walking by the library might have been for fear the bombs were going to go off and the library was going to collapse. That gels nicely with the above.

Also, it really does not seem like their first concern was killing cops. That's brought up after they talk about revenge, the white hats, etc, after shooting at least two people and walking to the other side. It seems at least consistent that they did not consider it a vantage point to kill cops until they saw them out the windows.

Another thing to consider, as outlined e. g. in the article "Lessons from Columbine: Virtual and Real Rage", which perhaps controversially puts a lot of the blame for the massacre on their isolation, computer gaming, and then being grounded and cut off from the computer at various times such as the van incident, is how they shot at computers, tvs, etc and people who were at the computers. That's another reason which is at least on the table for why they chose the library.

1. Clock timers are very precise, they are wired to go off at an exact time, that is the point of a clock timer. It is possible the timers could of been a minute or two ahead or behind at most. How would Krabe even know a fact like that without physically having the clocks they used in his possession? They walked into the library a little under 15 minutes after planting the bombs. I don't think they had a specific area in the school where they planned to die. Afterall they banked on the bombs going off and dying in a police shootout. It just so happened that they had some ammo left and most students had evacuated the school and library at that point so they went back to shoot at some cops with the remaining ammo and decided to end it in the library.

2. Eric makes this statement to Bree Pasquale directly after breaking his nose from the blast killing Cassie. He is seen by witnesses as groggy, and out of it and has trouble even balancing on his feet as he is crouched down. He is simply talking shit explaining his plan to try and cement his power and god complex. He was on a major power trip. The bombs wouldn't of done much damage to the cafeteria let alone blow up the school. Eric spoke on shooting kids running out and Dylan mentioned charging the halls.

3. Because they were set for an exact time and they knew they weren't going to detonate when the time passed. A clock timer is specifically meant for an exact time. If you set it to 11:17 and it doesn't go off within a few minute window there is a 95% chance the timers were duds. On top of that if someone were to find the bombs the whole school would of been evacuated thus destroying their whole plan. They knew their bomb making skills weren't the best which is why they made a plan b. They knew they had to get in there and start killing before someone found those bags. They weren't going to go back in there and take the bombs back and do it another day. They had no choice.

4. As I stated above they are far enough away when shooting at the bombs to avoid being hurt. If they sat down in front of them maybe I'd think different. Even if it was an attempt at suicide this was AFTER the library massacre thus showing they didn't want to enter the school and just die by explosion right away. They wanted to shoot kids and cause as much damage as they could before police entered. I believe they shot at the bombs to try and get them to detonate to at least give them the sense that the bombing aspect of NBK wasn't a complete failure. It was just to cause as much damage to the school as they could. Why risk blowing a limb off and going through a painful death when they had guns where they'd die an instant painless death? If that was the case they could of lit a pipe bomb around their necks as you stated.

5. Dylan was probably talking shit when he said that, just as Eric was when he said he wanted to fly a plane into NYC skyscrapers and escape to another country. Dylan killed himself with a clean shot from his Tec, when he could of taken half his head off with his shotgun. He saw the damage the shotgun did to Eric, and chose a smaller caliber gun. They had pipe bombs so if this was the case why didn't he do it? All mindless shit talk. Saying it will be like the LA riots, OKC and such is just him putting into perspective the damage and carnage he wants to ensue. Dylan also states that it will be the most intense "15 mins" of his life further showing they planned for the cops to be on the scene fast and they would die from the shootout. He also had a bullet in his boot to kill himself with in case he ran out of ammo which makes me think he really wanted to die by his own self inflicted gunshot.

6. It wasn't their main concern to kill cops, but seeing as basically the first thing they did when entering the library full of kids was to shoot out the windows at cops, then coming back before committing suicide to shoot at them again, and putting bombs in their cars to go off when they were searched by police shows it was of some concern. I feel that deep down they knew that propane bombs wouldn't do that much damage but they just hyped themselves up. I think they both knew that those bombs wouldn't take the library down, but it was the best bomb they could make with their resources.

1) The point of clock timers is to time when the bombs go off yeah obviously, but I am not sure how precise they are.  We know the clocks they used, and they weren't digital clocks.  I don't think they planned on dying during a police shootout over and above shooting themselves or blowing themselves up. I think either one was on the table. Indeed, if they were so set on dying in a police shootout, they would have just walked outside and engaged the cops, rather than be on video ready to die in the cafeteria explosion, or shooting themselves in the library. You said it yourself, Dylan had a bullet in his boot to shoot himself.  I think it's more like they were ready to die by whatever means and also wanted to kill cops in a shootout.

2) The statement to Bree is not the only time they said the library was going to blow up while they were in there, and I simply don't agree with it being a lie he told as part of his god complex or whatever. They had bombs underneath the library. They said they were going to blow the library up. They said everybody they did not shoot was going to die anyway from the explosion. Also, pet peeve and I'm not judging you for it, but because others might it's "would have" or "would've" not "would of".

3) See 1), they weren't digital clocks. I'm not sure they were "set to 11:17" as much as "set between the 3 and the 4".  I don't disagree that they were not going to remove the bombs and try another day.

4) This is simply false. If the bombs had gone off when Eric shot at them, they'd be dead in the explosion. If they went off when Dylan threw a molotov at them and Eric is taking a drink, they were even closer, and would be dead. If they went off when Dylan went literally right up to them and they were even closer, they'd be dead. They also went into the kitchen, and two days later they found bombs in the kitchen. Again, they probably tried to set them off, and if they went off, they'd be dead.

5) I don't think that's Dylan talking shit like Eric's fantasy about "weird as shit luck". I think that's just Dylan being suicidal and having a pipe bomb in his room. And Eric literally said in April of 99 they would go into the cafeteria with a bunch of bombs but he wasn't sure if he could get firearms yet. Assuming suicide was still part of the plan, then they had to be prepared to die from a bomb.

1. They were well prepared to die in a police shootout and expected police interference, this is well documented. Dylan wrote he expected it would last 15 minutes. That is why I believe they did so much aimless wondering, because they didn't plan on having free roam of the school for so long. Digital or not makes zero difference. People who are experienced can detonate bombs with anything that ticks. They were incompetent on bomb making period. What logical sense does it make to run out into a small army of cops and SWAT, when they can shoot them from a vantage point behind cover? Their plan was to destroy the school and anyone in it, and if they could add some police as "frags" then cool. Not run out stupidly and die. Dylan had a bullet in his boot because the whole point of being "godlike" is to go out by yourself on your own terms. Just because they were expecting a police shootout doesn't mean that is how they really wanted to go out. If it happened it happened.

2. I stand by what I said. Zero evidence that I've seen points to either of them planning to or wanting to die in the first explosion. The way those bombs were wired if they didn't blow at the correct time, it wasn't happening, and I believe they knew that. Eric studied the anarchist cookbook heavily, and I think he knew they were fucked too. Which adds to why they went to plan b so fast. No one said he was lying when he was yelling his banter, they said shit like that all throughout the library. They also said they should start knifing kids. Of course they said everyone is going to die, what are they going to tell them they are all going to be safe Appreciate the tip, but I don't worry about perfect grammar on the internet.

3. See 1. Again digital timer or not matters zilch. They were incompetent at explosive devices above pipe-bombs.

4. As I stated if they were right on top of them yes, from their distance not likely. Propane isn't a great combustible. It doesn't explode when shot. After shooting a propane tank full of holes there would be zero gas in there therefore a Molotov would do nothing. I still believe they just wanted to cause more destruction to the school, which is why after failing to shoot them Dylan throws a Molotov out of possible frustration. What bombs in the kitchen?

5. Don't really get what you're trying to say. He had pipe-bombs for a year before the massacre. If he was that suicidal he could put it around his neck and ended it then. Again after seeing the destruction the shotgun did to Eric, he chose to take the more clean way out which completely contradicts that. NBK was a two part thing. I doubt they would of just planted bombs and walked out not having guns. I also don't see how them talking about bombs before getting guns means they planned on dying in an explosion either. You've have some good theories however Nothing you've said really sways me to change mine. Good discussion though!

slippy123 wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

You all make great points, but did you ever think the reason why they passed the library a few times before entering was knowing they planted bombs on the two support beams that could possibly bring the library down killing them in the process?

I've thought many times they may have expected the bombs to go off during the library massacre. They said multiple times that everyone in there was gonna die from the explosion. That's the only way that would've happened. They didn't even go straight to the bombs when they left, and I'm sure they knew people would run out of there. It would also explain their confidence when they entered as reported by the witnesses. No need to worry about cops entering if the library is going to collapse. It would also explain why they chose the library. It means shooting at the bombs wasn't their first suicide attempt, walking into the library was. This also calls into question the standard "they started shooting when the bombs did not go off". They may have thought they were bound to go off. Indeed, it is hard for me at least to imagine why they would start shooting if they didn't think that.

As for the diversion bomb, it was pipe bombs, aerosol canisters, and propane tanks in two backpacks. Just some of the pipe bombs and aerosol canister went off. It didn't make much of a fire, so it was not much of a diversion. However, the details of the bombs were relayed to police at the school as to what to watch out for, and they claim it had motion detection capabilities. That's hard to believe, but that's what they said, and that has me strongly suspect it was part of why the cops did not enter the school, and feared "booby traps" and wanted to use the fire truck to ram into the door to take the brunt of the explosion if opening the door triggered a bomb, etc. So it's quite possible at least to me that things would have gone very differently if not for the diversion bomb.

Pretty sure once they didn't go off at 11:17am they knew that they were duds, but they probably were hoping real hard that they would explode. Plus NBK was about blowing it up and shooting the survivors. No evidence really points to them saying they planned to die in the explosion. I think the library was picked because they needed a perfect vantage point to shoot at police and a table to reload and gather which they did shortly after walking in. Plus I'm sure they knew that there are 50+ kids in there at any given time that are sitting ducks. I think they simply knew that the bombs were duds after they failed and had no choice but to go to their half ass "plan b".

Well I said "may" for a reason. It's far from the only theory, and it's more common to say what you said.

That said:
"Pretty sure once they didn't go off at 11:17am they knew that they were duds"
Maybe, and probably should have but:
1) e. g. Krabbe points out that the clocks weren't to-the-minute precise, and they would have known that. So, if that's true, then they would not have known by 11:18 that they were duds.

2) Throughout the library massacre, they seem confident the bombs will explode. "everyone's gonna die; we're gonna blow up the school anyway", but this contradicts "plan B" where they have written off the bombs by 11:18

3) Why move to plan B only 2 (or 5, depending on who you ask) minutes after the bombs failed? If you had planned your 'masterpiece' for a year, and had a diversion set up, might you wait a little while longer?

4) They could not see the cafeteria from their vantage point atop the stairs. Also, just like with 2), Dylan supposedly checked on the bombs after descending the stairs. But wait, I thought plan B meant they had written off the bombs? What's to check? I think opening fire 2 or 5 minutes after they were set to explode, and then once they could see the cafeteria checking on the bombs, is at least consistent with thinking they had gone off or were about to do so.

"No evidence really points to them saying they planned to die in the explosion. "
Well, we don't really know where they planned to die had the cafeteria bombs gone off, but:

1) We know they died in the library where most of the massacre took place. Could they have wanted to die among their victims, say in the cafeteria? Did they want to die while "knee deep in the dead"?  

2) If so, but the bombs had gone off after everyone had fled the cafeteria, and taken out the pillars and brought the library down, wouldn't the next choice have been the library? Again, they literally say the people in the library are going to die in the explosion. The only way that was happening is if they went off and brought the library down while they were in there shooting people. Surely they knew once they left the library that the students would also.

3) Witnesses say they were surprised how confident they were in the way they entered the library. At least one possibility is they were  expecting to die when the library fell from the explosion, and so had no worries about cops rushing in or anything else.

4) As surely you know, they seem to be caught on the CCTV trying to die in the explosion in the cafeteria.  Is that not some evidence?

5) Also, perhaps there is no evidence aside from 4) that they planned to die in the cafeteria explosion, but there does seem to be evidence they entertained the idea of dying from explosions rather than gunfire.  Dylan talked of tying the pipe bomb "Atlanta" around his neck and lighting it to commit suicide. The "It's gonna be like the LA riots, OKC, Duke, Doom, etc all mixed together" quote from Eric comes after him outlining the massacre with just 'crickets' and 'smoke bombs' and the like, without any firearms.

"I think the library was picked because they needed a perfect vantage point to shoot at police and a table to reload and gather which they did shortly after walking in. "

Yeah, quite possibly. But you pointed out there walking by the library might have been for fear the bombs were going to go off and the library was going to collapse. That gels nicely with the above.

Also, it really does not seem like their first concern was killing cops. That's brought up after they talk about revenge, the white hats, etc, after shooting at least two people and walking to the other side. It seems at least consistent that they did not consider it a vantage point to kill cops until they saw them out the windows.

Another thing to consider, as outlined e. g. in the article "Lessons from Columbine: Virtual and Real Rage", which perhaps controversially puts a lot of the blame for the massacre on their isolation, computer gaming, and then being grounded and cut off from the computer at various times such as the van incident, is how they shot at computers, tvs, etc and people who were at the computers. That's another reason which is at least on the table for why they chose the library.

1. Clock timers are very precise, they are wired to go off at an exact time, that is the point of a clock timer. It is possible the timers could of been a minute or two ahead or behind at most. How would Krabe even know a fact like that without physically having the clocks they used in his possession? They walked into the library a little under 15 minutes after planting the bombs. I don't think they had a specific area in the school where they planned to die. Afterall they banked on the bombs going off and dying in a police shootout. It just so happened that they had some ammo left and most students had evacuated the school and library at that point so they went back to shoot at some cops with the remaining ammo and decided to end it in the library.

2. Eric makes this statement to Bree Pasquale directly after breaking his nose from the blast killing Cassie. He is seen by witnesses as groggy, and out of it and has trouble even balancing on his feet as he is crouched down. He is simply talking shit explaining his plan to try and cement his power and god complex. He was on a major power trip. The bombs wouldn't of done much damage to the cafeteria let alone blow up the school. Eric spoke on shooting kids running out and Dylan mentioned charging the halls.

3. Because they were set for an exact time and they knew they weren't going to detonate when the time passed. A clock timer is specifically meant for an exact time. If you set it to 11:17 and it doesn't go off within a few minute window there is a 95% chance the timers were duds. On top of that if someone were to find the bombs the whole school would of been evacuated thus destroying their whole plan. They knew their bomb making skills weren't the best which is why they made a plan b. They knew they had to get in there and start killing before someone found those bags. They weren't going to go back in there and take the bombs back and do it another day. They had no choice.

4. As I stated above they are far enough away when shooting at the bombs to avoid being hurt. If they sat down in front of them maybe I'd think different. Even if it was an attempt at suicide this was AFTER the library massacre thus showing they didn't want to enter the school and just die by explosion right away. They wanted to shoot kids and cause as much damage as they could before police entered. I believe they shot at the bombs to try and get them to detonate to at least give them the sense that the bombing aspect of NBK wasn't a complete failure. It was just to cause as much damage to the school as they could. Why risk blowing a limb off and going through a painful death when they had guns where they'd die an instant painless death? If that was the case they could of lit a pipe bomb around their necks as you stated.

5. Dylan was probably talking shit when he said that, just as Eric was when he said he wanted to fly a plane into NYC skyscrapers and escape to another country. Dylan killed himself with a clean shot from his Tec, when he could of taken half his head off with his shotgun. He saw the damage the shotgun did to Eric, and chose a smaller caliber gun. They had pipe bombs so if this was the case why didn't he do it? All mindless shit talk. Saying it will be like the LA riots, OKC and such is just him putting into perspective the damage and carnage he wants to ensue. Dylan also states that it will be the most intense "15 mins" of his life further showing they planned for the cops to be on the scene fast and they would die from the shootout. He also had a bullet in his boot to kill himself with in case he ran out of ammo which makes me think he really wanted to die by his own self inflicted gunshot.

6. It wasn't their main concern to kill cops, but seeing as basically the first thing they did when entering the library full of kids was to shoot out the windows at cops, then coming back before committing suicide to shoot at them again, and putting bombs in their cars to go off when they were searched by police shows it was of some concern. I feel that deep down they knew that propane bombs wouldn't do that much damage but they just hyped themselves up. I think they both knew that those bombs wouldn't take the library down, but it was the best bomb they could make with their resources.

1) The point of clock timers is to time when the bombs go off yeah obviously, but I am not sure how precise they are.  We know the clocks they used, and they weren't digital clocks.  I don't think they planned on dying during a police shootout over and above shooting themselves or blowing themselves up. I think either one was on the table. Indeed, if they were so set on dying in a police shootout, they would have just walked outside and engaged the cops, rather than be on video ready to die in the cafeteria explosion, or shooting themselves in the library. You said it yourself, Dylan had a bullet in his boot to shoot himself.  I think it's more like they were ready to die by whatever means and also wanted to kill cops in a shootout.

2) The statement to Bree is not the only time they said the library was going to blow up while they were in there, and I simply don't agree with it being a lie he told as part of his god complex or whatever. They had bombs underneath the library. They said they were going to blow the library up. They said everybody they did not shoot was going to die anyway from the explosion. Also, pet peeve and I'm not judging you for it, but because others might it's "would have" or "would've" not "would of".

3) See 1), they weren't digital clocks. I'm not sure they were "set to 11:17" as much as "set between the 3 and the 4".  I don't disagree that they were not going to remove the bombs and try another day.

4) This is simply false. If the bombs had gone off when Eric shot at them, they'd be dead in the explosion. If they went off when Dylan threw a molotov at them and Eric is taking a drink, they were even closer, and would be dead. If they went off when Dylan went literally right up to them and they were even closer, they'd be dead. They also went into the kitchen, and two days later they found bombs in the kitchen. Again, they probably tried to set them off, and if they went off, they'd be dead.

5) I don't think that's Dylan talking shit like Eric's fantasy about "weird as shit luck". I think that's just Dylan being suicidal and having a pipe bomb in his room. And Eric literally said in April of 99 they would go into the cafeteria with a bunch of bombs but he wasn't sure if he could get firearms yet. Assuming suicide was still part of the plan, then they had to be prepared to die from a bomb.

1. They were well prepared to die in a police shootout and expected police interference, this is well documented. Dylan thought it would last 15 minutes before police entered. That is why I believe they did so much aimless wondering, because they didn't plan on having free roam of the school for so long. Digital or not makes zero difference. They were incompetent on bomb making period. What logical sense does it make to run out into a small army of cops and SWAT, when they can shoot them from a vantage point behind cover? Their plan was to destroy the school and anyone in it, and if they could add some police as "frags" then cool. Not run out stupidly and die. Dylan had a bullet in his boot because the whole point of being "godlike" is to go out by yourself on your own terms. Just because they were expecting a police shootout doesn't mean that is how they really wanted to go out. If it happened it happened.

2. I stand by what I said. Zero evidence that I've seen points to either of them planning to or wanting to die in the first explosion. No one said he was lying when he was yelling his banter, they said shit like that all throughout the library. They also said they should start knifing kids. Of course they said everyone is going to die, what are they going to tell them they are all going to be safe Appreciate the tip, but I don't worry about perfect grammar on the internet.

3. See 1. Again digital timer or not matters zilch. They were incompetent at explosive devices above pipe-bombs.

4. As I stated if they were right on top of them yes, from their distance not likely. Propane isn't a great combustible. It doesn't explode when shot. After shooting a propane tank full of holes there would be zero gas in there therefore a Molotov would do nothing. What bombs in the kitchen?

5. Don't really get what you're trying to say. He had pipe-bombs for a year before the massacre. If he was that suicidal he could put it around his neck and ended it then. Again after seeing the destruction the shotgun did to Eric, he chose to take the more clean way out which completely contradicts that. I don't see how them talking about bombs before getting guns means they planned on dying in an explosion either.

1) "Dylan had a bullet in his boot because the whole point of being "godlike" is to go out by yourself on your own terms. Just because they were expecting a police shootout doesn't mean that is how they really wanted to go out. If it happened it happened. " I fail to see how this isn't just contradicting yourself that they only wanted to die in a police shootout and saying on that basis that they would not have expected the bombs to go off and the library to collapse during the library massacre, even though that's the only way for what they said would happen to take place.

"What logical sense does it make to run out into a small army of cops and SWAT, when they can shoot them from a vantage point behind cover"
Makes perfect sense to me if they were so committed to only dying from a police shootout rather than just wanted to kill cops.

At no point did I argue that they expected to die in the planned  11:17 cafeteria explosion. I'm speculating that they may have planned to die in the cafeteria among a bunch of corpses after the explosion, and when that did not happen and the cafeteria emptied, opted to shoot people in the library until the bombs went off, killing themselves and the people they didn't shoot in the library.

2) I see an obvious difference between saying they always wanted to knife people and never doing it after getting bored of shooting and saying they are going to blow the library up throughout when they had planted bombs beforehand.  If you don't like the example with Bree, I'll use John Savage, who said he thought about getting up when they said they were gonna blow up the library as they entered, thinking that they meant they would blow up books as some form of protest. They said it several times, then when it set in that they weren't going off on their own went to shoot at them. I don't think they were bluffing.

3) Well I'm not denying they were incompetent, but they wouldn't have bothered making them if they thought that themselves.

4) Don't think they would have shot at them if they knew that though. Think they thought it'd be a chain reaction like shooting a barrel of nukage in Doom. Don't think they would have thrown a molotov cocktail at it either unless they thought it would make it go off. They were obviously trying to make the bombs go off at full blast, and they obviously would have been dead if it did.  I'm not saying they were correct in thinking that. That's not necessary for the point. And Dylan definitely goes right up to the bombs at one point.  I don't think it's disputable that was a suicide attempt.

On April 22, they found two bombs in the kitchen. See here for example: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

They also clearly enter the kitchen on the CCTV.  If you have a better explanation for why they entered the kitchen, go for it, but I imagine they tried to set those off too.

5) I don't see what him shooting himself with the TEC-9 rather than his shotgun has to do with anything. I'm saying they were suicidal and didn't care whether it was bombs, their own guns, or police guns. He was afraid of dying alone and doing nothing with is life and couldn't push himself to die without a reason to do so, but he was still suicidal, and considered tying a pipe bomb around his neck.

Also, Eric on the Basement Tapes points at his napalm backpack/flamethrow and says "that's the suicide plan". They definitely considered dying in an explosion. That isn't even disputable.