My theories on Columbine - some New ideas you haven't heard before

"Makes perfect sense to me if they were so committed to only dying from a police shootout rather than just wanted to kill cops."

Who said they were committed to dying just by police? Did you even read a thing I said?

Also, Eric on the Basement Tapes points at his napalm backpack/flamethrow and says "that's the suicide plan". They definitely considered dying in an explosion. That isn't even disputable.

You're grasping at straws my friend. You're trying to tie the cafeteria bombs to them mentioning killing themselves with napalm (so much of a plan that they didn't even bothering retrieving it from Chris Morris's freezer). No need to keep explaining yourself. Like I said above I agree to disagree.

I did read what you said. Sorry if I am misunderstanding. I thought you said they would not have wanted to die from an explosion because they were committed to dying from a police shootout.

I'm trying to tie the fact that they were prepared to die with an exploding backpack of napalm to being prepared to die with an exploding propane bomb which is also evidenced by the CCTV, yes.

cakeman wrote:

I did read what you said. Sorry if I am misunderstanding. I thought you said they would not have wanted to die from an explosion because they were committed to dying from a police shootout.

I'm trying to tie the fact that they were prepared to die with an exploding backpack of napalm to being prepared to die with an exploding propane bomb which is also evidenced by the CCTV, yes.

I can't say it any other way. If you don't see where I am coming from I don't know what to tell you.

So why did they bother to not even get it from Chris's house? If it was anything like their bomb making skills it probably was completely useless.

slippy123 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

I did read what you said. Sorry if I am misunderstanding. I thought you said they would not have wanted to die from an explosion because they were committed to dying from a police shootout.

I'm trying to tie the fact that they were prepared to die with an exploding backpack of napalm to being prepared to die with an exploding propane bomb which is also evidenced by the CCTV, yes.

So why didn't they bother to not even get it from Chris's house?

I don't really see how that's relevant. It shows they were prepared to die in an explosion. I would also counter why if you think they weren't serious about it that a teenager who could be easily busted documented trying to make it several times on his parents stove while they were out of the house. I imagine the problem was finding the right mixture and building the backpack/flamethrower thing.

Also, as I understand, they mentioned it on the basement tapes but Chris just said no to keeping it at his house. I don't think they left it at his house and never retrieved it.

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

I did read what you said. Sorry if I am misunderstanding. I thought you said they would not have wanted to die from an explosion because they were committed to dying from a police shootout.

I'm trying to tie the fact that they were prepared to die with an exploding backpack of napalm to being prepared to die with an exploding propane bomb which is also evidenced by the CCTV, yes.

So why didn't they bother to not even get it from Chris's house?

I don't really see it how it's relevant. You're grasping at straws my friend.. I would also counter why if you think they weren't serious about it that a teenager who could be easily busted documented trying to make it several times on his parents stove while they were out of the house. I imagine the problem was finding the right mixture and building the backpack/flamethrower thing.

Also, as I understand, they mentioned it on the basement tapes but Chris just said no to keeping it at his house. I don't think they left it at his house and never retrieved it.

"Die from an explosion"

One problem, it doesn't explode like bomb. You realize napalm is a jelly like incendiary right? It ignites like gas does, so they would literally burn to death slowly. They weren't walking around with drums filled with napalm to make a giant ball of fire. They probably had a 2 liter bottle at most. Regardless they never used it, your point is moot. It is relevant as you are grasping trying to tie it into the cafeteria bombs. It could of been part of the plan but they probably realized that would be a very dumb and painful way to die. It would hurt no one but them.

Now you're just trolling. Worried about getting busted making napalm but literally had a small armory laying out in his room badly hidden or in plain view. Used his garage to build pipe bombs and put shrapnel in bombs. Gave the gunstore his home phone number. But was worried about cooking napalm? lol. He had the anarchists cookbook, he knew the exact recipe to make it and build whatever he needed to use it. I was with you a little before but now you lost me completely. I am actually done now lol.

I figure the reason they chose propane bombs is also because they wanted fires. It's absurd to say because they never used it that it wasn't at one point part of the plan and shows they were prepared to die from more than just a gunshot. They tried to make it several times.

That small armory that could have got him busted and indeed the massacre happening at all shows he was quite serious about what he was doing including the napalm. There's no trolling.

You can see it in his posture the last time you see him in the video he was over it.. he wanted death, wrote about taking his own life for two years.

cakeman wrote:

I figure the reason they chose propane bombs is also because they wanted fires. It's absurd to say because they never used it that it wasn't at one point part of the plan and shows they were prepared to die from more than just a gunshot.  They tried to make it several times.

That small armory that could have got him busted and indeed the massacre happening at all shows he was quite serious about what he was doing including the napalm. There's no trolling.

They planned to kill hundreds, of course it was serious, who said it wasn't? It might of been an early part of the plan but it wasn't practical which is why I personally think it wasn't used. I explained my reasoning and you don't have to agree with my theory which is why I've been telling you I agree to disagree for 3 posts now.

This is bullshit, somebody throw a goddamn punch already!

miketheratguy wrote:

This bullshit, somebody throw a goddamn punch already!

I would've liked to read this thread until it got buried under the weight for like five different word walls as part of an argument that's ridiculous in the extreme.

slippy123 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

I did read what you said. Sorry if I am misunderstanding. I thought you said they would not have wanted to die from an explosion because they were committed to dying from a police shootout.

I'm trying to tie the fact that they were prepared to die with an exploding backpack of napalm to being prepared to die with an exploding propane bomb which is also evidenced by the CCTV, yes.

I can't say it any other way. If you don't see where I am coming from I don't know what to tell you.

This would be one of those times when you both just agree to disagree like adults and move on.

Even if the propane tanks werent strong enough to blow shit up, they were outside waiting anyways. Everybody running out would have been picked off. I would go as far as saying if they did do enough damage to make people run out, there would have been way more victims. They were sitting ducks.

Sane One wrote:

Even if the propane tanks werent strong enough to blow shit up, they were outside waiting anyways. Everybody running out would have been picked off. I would go as far as saying if they did do enough damage to make people run out, there would have been way more victims. They were sitting ducks.

This is very true. I shudder to think what the death toll could have been had E&D went straight into the cafeteria first. There could/would have been kids crushed to death in everyone's rush and blind panic, many more injuries etc.

I sometimes wonder why Eric and Dylan didn't just go into opposite sides of the cafeteria and just start mowing people down. One of them stands inside the entrance, the other one stands at the stairs, and they just unload on everyone in the middle. I'm obviously not advocating a higher death count but if they were going to start shooting after the bombs failed anyway, this would have been much more effective. The fatalities would have been in the dozens, perhaps even triple digits.

I agree. Obviously nobody would want a higher death count, but for all their planning it didn't seem very co-ordinated in the end.

miketheratguy wrote:

I sometimes wonder why Eric and Dylan didn't just go into opposite sides of the cafeteria and just start mowing people down. One of them stands inside the entrance, the other one stands at the stairs, and they just unload on everyone in the middle. I'm obviously not advocating a higher death count but if they were going to start shooting after the bombs failed anyway, this would have been much more effective. The fatalities would have been in the dozens, perhaps even triple digits.

I’m not sure. They shot mostly in the library then spent 20 minutes after just destroying the school.


I don’t think either of them enjoyed killing as much as they thought they would.

miketheratguy wrote:

I sometimes wonder why Eric and Dylan didn't just go into opposite sides of the cafeteria and just start mowing people down. One of them stands inside the entrance, the other one stands at the stairs, and they just unload on everyone in the middle. I'm obviously not advocating a higher death count but if they were going to start shooting after the bombs failed anyway, this would have been much more effective. The fatalities would have been in the dozens, perhaps even triple digits.

Thankfully they didn't think of this very thing when they enacted the hasty plan B.

Pixie13 wrote:

I agree. Obviously nobody would want a higher death count, but for all their planning it didn't seem very co-ordinated in the end.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I don’t think either of them enjoyed killing as much as they thought they would.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Thankfully they didn't think of this very thing when they enacted the hasty plan B.

Agreed on all accounts.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I’m not sure. They shot mostly in the library then spent 20 minutes after just destroying the school.


I don’t think either of them enjoyed killing as much as they thought they would.

Very true. Both had every opportunity to kill many more, yet didn't.

I hope that means they went to their deaths regretting what they did.

Pixie13 wrote:

I hope that means they went to their deaths regretting what they did.  

Something tells me that they actually did. Not necessarily regretting their decision to kill, but regretting that it wasn't what they'd hoped it would be. I believe that they died not with joy and satisfaction but with mundanity and disillusionment.

miketheratguy wrote:

I sometimes wonder why Eric and Dylan didn't just go into opposite sides of the cafeteria and just start mowing people down. One of them stands inside the entrance, the other one stands at the stairs, and they just unload on everyone in the middle. I'm obviously not advocating a higher death count but if they were going to start shooting after the bombs failed anyway, this would have been much more effective. The fatalities would have been in the dozens, perhaps even triple digits.

Yeah, it's yet another consideration that has me wonder if they thought the bombs were about to explode or had already when they opened fire, and if they thought they were going to explode while in the library. If they had written them off entirely, it seems like they would do something like what you said.

And why didn't Dylan fire when he went into the cafeteria after descending the stairs outside?  He surely would have hit someone. Another consideration, of course, is getting rushed, and there were so many people in the cafeteria. And Kip Kinkel was probably fresh on their minds. I don't think they would have got anywhere near triple digits before they were stopped. They spent most of the massacre quite near each other, and even in the library would tell the other to cover them.

Do you ever wonder what would happen if they did it today instead of in 1999? I guess I'm thinking specifically in regards to the bomb making. Would they have been able to find more information online? Watch YouTube videos? Possibly had more "success" in that respect?

Of course it's impossible to think about the difference exactly. I mean so much has changed with police response, social media awareness, etc. since but a lot of that is due to Columbine. School shootings happened for years before, but if Columbine hadn't had happened, would the changes that came about still come about from other events? Would those other shootings have happened without Columbine? That's a whole other discussion I'm sure, that would be interesting too. But I mean without that, just if Eric and Dylan had access to the information that's online today instead of back then. Mind you I don't remember the internet in 1999 so maybe I'm being naive, and there was a lot of information available back then and it still didn't impact their ability or lack thereof.

Speaking of differences due to time periods, I'm not sure where is best to put this but I've seen places where the Klebolds didn't think Dylan would be bullied due to his height. I think it's because in the 50s and 60s when they were growing up, bullying was more the big kids picking on the little scrawny kids. 1999 didn't have the social media and internet bullying there is today but it was definitely different than what parents grew up with. I think that has a lot to do with it.

cakeman wrote:

Yeah, it's yet another consideration that has me wonder if they thought the bombs were about to explode or had already when they opened fire, and if they thought they were going to explode while in the library. If they had written them off entirely, it seems like they would do something like what you said. .

That's what would make sense to me. I mean I have no intentions of going on a killing spree but if I did I'd just get an automatic or semiautomatic weapon, find the place with the most people and the least escape routes, and just open fire. I mean say that there's a crowd of 200 people in front of you, right there in the same room. What if you were to run instead of just casually walking everywhere? What if you threw molotovs and pipe bombs not at stationary IEDs, but into hordes of people? Hell, why didn't one of them drive their car up the hill and block the cafeteria entrance while the other one ran in from the other side?

I mean again, I have no interest in mass murdering a bunch of innocent people but if someone like Eric and Dylan did, why would they have not considered stuff like this? Eric and Dylan dreamed of this huge body count but in the end they completely dropped the ball. For all their plans, all the months of going on about bringing judgment upon the world, they didn't seem to have a single idea for plan B other than "I guess let's just wander around and fire at things". Either one of them could have killed far more people than they did together, and since they WERE together they could have been a much deadlier force than they were. I guess it's just good that they weren't. When you think about it it's really kind of surprising that the number of victims was as small as it was, all things considered. Everyone who survived was lucky that, for as intelligent and prepared as Eric and Dylan were, they were lousy improvisers.

milennialrebelette wrote:

Do you ever wonder what would happen if they did it today instead of in 1999? I guess I'm thinking specifically in regards to the bomb making. Would they have been able to find more information online? Watch YouTube videos? Possibly had more "success" in that respect?

I wonder about that, yeah. Widespread internet use was still in kind of a nascent state in 1999, at least certainly compared to twenty years later. I have no doubt that with today's internet they not only could have found far more information about what they wanted to do, they could have gotten in touch with eager supporters from all over the world who would have liked to be a part of what they were doing. That's a pretty scary thought.

At the same time, I also think that today's culture would be a lot faster to act on the kind of stuff that E&D were doing. Their plans would have gotten out there, people would have identified red flags more easily. Ironic, considering that Columbine was instrumental in raising awareness to the problems of dangerous, disenfranchised youth. Additionally, I can't help wondering if Eric and Dylan would have availed themselves of the countless self-help resources that are out there today. Would they have looked up their own symptoms? Would they have sought support groups or joined depression and anger forums? Would they have joined dating sites and if so, what kind of successes could they have had? Could they have been talked down, maybe met decent people who might have been able to dissolve some of their aggression? Or, perhaps more likely, would the internet just expose them to an even larger world of all the things that they hated?

Intriguing stuff to think about.

miketheratguy wrote:

I mean again, I have no interest in mass murdering a bunch of innocent people but if someone like Eric and Dylan did, why would they have not considered stuff like this? Eric and Dylan dreamed of this huge body count but in the end they completely dropped the ball. 

I assume that for Dylan he didn't really give a damn what went down as long as he died and took down a few people with him as a big "fuck you" to the world. As for Eric, I think he was way too overconfident in his bombs to even consider a Plan B. It was to the point where I almost wonder if it was such a total fantasy for him that he felt he couldn't deviate from it and didn't know what to do if it didn't go according to his vision.

Kacey Ruegsegger's statement in the 11k supports some of what Paneye is saying. Dylan seemed the one to talk about jocks, and the more vocal one in general. So, I figured he said the white hats comment, but I couldn't place when it happened, and if it's put in the mouth of Eric, he at least shot Evan first, to go with "Fine, I'll start shooting anyway."

But Kacey was inches from where Dylan threw down his trench coat. Contra the diagrams, she says he removed his coat, told the jocks to stand up, and then said he would start shooting anyway and shot Hall/Steepleton/Ireland. And I think at least Dan and Patrick had white hats. So, it seems reasonable to say that is where the library massacre really begins.