For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....

Rebbie556 wrote:

To make it clear they were bullied why would Erik Veik say : "finally you guys did something"?
I'm not excusing them.  And What they did is unforgivable.
Kids who don't have anywhere to go or anyone to talk to that's what makes them snap.  
I've read that after the massacre columbine improved for few months /days but went later to it's old ways.

"To me Epidemic isn't  gun violence
The epidemic is lack of family lack of love & isolation."
- Mark Foster

It's one of the reasons I hate Evan Todd, he knew what he was doing, but he never took responsibility and still doesn't. He can claim he changed all he wants, but if he doesn't acknowledge his part on what happened 20 years ago, his whole self reflection is moot.

Deleted

I don't see much if any evidence for "it went from the jocks to everyone". A just-so story if ever there was one in my opinion.  In the journal entries, they very clearly mark the spot for the bombs as the pillars. They also told the library it was going to experience a bomb, and even said they were going to blow up the 'school', and not just the commons. The only way the library experiences anything, and probably the only way they take out more than just the commons, where you would call it blowing up the school, is if it takes out the pillars. Ralph Larkin says they planted it near the jocks, but he says a lot of things.

Plus it seems like a contradiction. The reason anybody believes the jock story in the first place is because what they said in the library, when they were shooting people, in the day or two before anybody knew of the bombs. If you hold onto it after discovery of the bombs, then, for some reason, they wanted to shoot the jocks, and wanted everybody else to get bombed. But we seem to also be saying the opposite, that the bombs were uniquely for the jocks.

Also, whether they wanted to take out the pillars or not, surely they wanted to take out the commons, and that means putting the bombs in the middle of the commons, regardless of who is sitting there. If the jocks happened to sit in the corner, I don't think for a second they would have planted the bombs in a corner.

I suspect they put the bombs under or near tables to hide them or make them look inconspicuous and like they were the property of some student or other. Then, given the day 1 interpretation of the massacre after what they said in the library, people just assume that was the jocks table. I've never seen any detail about who sat where, not even from Larkin.

Also it was A lunch right? I also wonder how many jocks had A lunch. Some did, surely, and can see some hats on the CCTV, but  in my experience I don't remember people of standing like jocks or upperclassmen taking the earliest, busiest lunch period. Though maybe getting out of class at the earliest was a priority, I remember those of standing taking the last lunch period, to fuck off and go home.  The point being if say C lunch had the most jocks but A lunch had the most people, them choosing A lunch would obviously undermine the idea that it was targeting jocks, as if there wasn't enough to undermine that already.

cakeman wrote:

Also it was A lunch right? I also wonder how many jocks had A lunch. Some did, surely, and can see some hats on the CCTV, but  in my experience I don't remember people of standing like jocks or upperclassmen taking the earliest, busiest lunch period.

At my school it was automatically assigned to us, not chosen. I'm not sure about Columbine, but assignment for our school was based off what 4th period class was (i.e. everyone who was on the 3rd floor during 4th period had A lunch, everyone on the 2nd had B lunch).

Actually the OP is right. And also Eric and Dylan barely got bullied. These two chickenshits did not deal with the torture that the TCM dealt with, and other kids in that school did. Rocky probably didn't even know those two. And The Ketchup Tampon Incident never happened.

lol wrote:

And The Ketchup Tampon Incident never happened.

I think it's important to state that it's your belief that the incident never happened.
Are you making this claim just because we haven't heard a lot about it? If so, what is your opinion of the incidents inclusion in the Governor's Columbine Review Commission report? Do you think the report included unsubstantiated rumors?
What about Sue's report of Dylan coming home with red spots of ketchup on his shirt and saying he'd had the worst day of his life? Is she lying?
I'm guessing you think Brooks Brown is lying about it, given his reputation?
What about Chad Laughlin's claim that it happened? I believe he only mentions Dylan as the victim?

thelmar wrote:

lol wrote:

And The Ketchup Tampon Incident never happened.

I think it's important to state that it's your belief that the incident never happened.
Are you making this claim just because we haven't heard a lot about it? If so, what is your opinion of the incidents inclusion in the Governor's Columbine Review Commission report? Do you think the report included unsubstantiated rumors?
What about Sue's report of Dylan coming home with red spots of ketchup on his shirt and saying he'd had the worst day of his life? Is she lying?
I'm guessing you think Brooks Brown is lying about it, given his reputation?
What about Chad Laughlin's claim that it happened? I believe he only mentions Dylan as the victim?

It happened. I lived in Littleton for a year, I know I cannot prove any of this... but you meet people and you find out things.

thelmar wrote:

lol wrote:

And The Ketchup Tampon Incident never happened.

I think it's important to state that it's your belief that the incident never happened.
Are you making this claim just because we haven't heard a lot about it? If so, what is your opinion of the incidents inclusion in the Governor's Columbine Review Commission report? Do you think the report included unsubstantiated rumors?
What about Sue's report of Dylan coming home with red spots of ketchup on his shirt and saying he'd had the worst day of his life? Is she lying?
I'm guessing you think Brooks Brown is lying about it, given his reputation?
What about Chad Laughlin's claim that it happened? I believe he only mentions Dylan as the victim?

Something with ketchup probably happened, though it's not at all clear; but if we're talking about the same Governor's report, then there are definitely reasons to call into question. As I recall, it says they planted the cafeteria bombs near the exits, as it relates the common shooting from the parking lot idea (I would say myth) which I don't think has a source. It's interesting that it's included in there, but that is far from gospel. There are better reports on it.

This sentence Eric writes in his journal in November '98 is still stuck with me to this day: "If people would give me more compliments all of this might still be avoidable..."
Can't get over it. Very frustrating. You wanna do so much but you can't.
Could it have been avoided, though? Like, WHAT could have possibly changed his mind entirely and just drop the plans? Any thoughts?

noodlesoldier wrote:

This sentence Eric writes in his journal in November '98 is still stuck with me to this day: "If people would give me more compliments all of this might still be avoidable..."
Can't get over it. Very frustrating. You wanna do so much but you can't.
Could it have been avoided, though? Like, WHAT could have possibly changed his mind entirely and just drop the plans? Any thoughts?

I'm not sure what it was he was looking for or if he received it that it would have changed things. But I do think that this entry is one of the things that illustrates the whole "Eric wanted to kill, Dylan wanted to die" stuff is BS. We can only guess as to his motivation for writing that but to me it sure seems like he wanted some kind of connection with people, some kind of validation of himself. If he just wanted to kill people, I don't think he'd be looking for validation from them or considering what it would take/what he'd need to make him drop the entire plan.

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Definitely agree with you on that.

I belive that it was just a long list of things that he made along the way for why he hated people. Everything from people that make fun of him to slow drivers.


As for Dylan I remember hes mother said that she believed that Dylan killed in order to die. Im no scholar in the field, but the whole thing off opposite personalities are supported by Dwayne Fuselyer. Those are the very people that examined the personalities of both the two. Sues theory is that Dylan had gone to a point where he dehumanized people as representantation of the school. We can only speculate about this, though, as school shootings are extremely complicated as a whole to comprehend. It seems like they tend to kill themselves too. But in her book A mothers reckoning she argues that Dylan had written about suicidal thoughts but didnt actually trie to do anything. So she further argues that he joined Eric because he didnt want to die alone.

Theres also the concept of murder- suicides that I know people have been brought up. The idea that you take people with you when you carry out a suicide

thelmar wrote:

noodlesoldier wrote:

This sentence Eric writes in his journal in November '98 is still stuck with me to this day: "If people would give me more compliments all of this might still be avoidable..."
Can't get over it. Very frustrating. You wanna do so much but you can't.
Could it have been avoided, though? Like, WHAT could have possibly changed his mind entirely and just drop the plans? Any thoughts?

I'm not sure what it was he was looking for or if he received it that it would have changed things. But I do think that this entry is one of the things that illustrates the whole "Eric wanted to kill, Dylan wanted to die" stuff is BS.

How's that? Seemed to me a decent way to characterize their differences, though I wouldn't remove free will from the equation and blame it on mental illness as Fuselier seems to, that specific quote of his seemed insightful. And I just don't see the connection between wishing for compliments and not wanting to kill.

cakeman wrote:

thelmar wrote:

I'm not sure what it was he was looking for or if he received it that it would have changed things. But I do think that this entry is one of the things that illustrates the whole "Eric wanted to kill, Dylan wanted to die" stuff is BS.

How's that? Seemed to me a decent way to characterize their differences, though I wouldn't remove free will from the equation and blame it on mental illness as Fuselier seems to, that specific quote of his seemed insightful. And I just don't see the connection between wishing for compliments and not wanting to kill.

I wasn't trying to make a connection between wishing for compliments and not wanting to kill. Eric spoke a lot of wanting to kill and the main reasons he cited were that people were sheep who just followed along with what society expected of them, he claimed to be disdainful of people for that reason. Yet, he's saying he wants compliments from them? Why wish for compliments from people whose lives he thinks are pointless? To me, this statement suggests that there was more to his reasons than mankind wasn't good enough to survive so he should destroy them. The same goes for the maybe getting laid would turn shit around or don't let the weird looking Eric kid come along comments. Why wish for a connection with people who you deem worthless? It doesn't make sense.

The "Eric wanted to kill and was willing to die and Dylan wanted to die and was willing to kill" statement is meant to convey that Eric was in it solely for the thrill of killing, to see the suffering, etc. Of course he wanted to kill, but his statements suggest it wasn't for those reasons. To me, it seems more like if he couldn't be part of it, if he couldn't get the respect or the notice he craved, then he'd destroy it. I think he wanted to die, too, since he didn't envision any kind of future for himself, and maybe these comments are part of the reason. And, of course Dylan wanted to die, but he wasn't killing reluctantly (as evidenced by his planning beforehand and actions that day). He wanted to kill, too. I don't believe the "he didn't want to die alone" crap. I think for whatever reason he couldn't just pull the trigger on himself and used the killing as a means of not being able to back out of killing himself. He wouldn't be able to live with the consequences of killing people so it made suicide more necessity for him than choice.

thelmar wrote:

cakeman wrote:

thelmar wrote:

I'm not sure what it was he was looking for or if he received it that it would have changed things. But I do think that this entry is one of the things that illustrates the whole "Eric wanted to kill, Dylan wanted to die" stuff is BS.

How's that? Seemed to me a decent way to characterize their differences, though I wouldn't remove free will from the equation and blame it on mental illness as Fuselier seems to, that specific quote of his seemed insightful. And I just don't see the connection between wishing for compliments and not wanting to kill.

I wasn't trying to make a connection between wishing for compliments and not wanting to kill. Eric spoke a lot of wanting to kill and the main reasons he cited were that people were sheep who just followed along with what society expected of them, he claimed to be disdainful of people for that reason. Yet, he's saying he wants compliments from them? Why wish for compliments from people whose lives he thinks are pointless? To me, this statement suggests that there was more to his reasons than mankind wasn't good enough to survive so he should destroy them. The same goes for the maybe getting laid would turn shit around or don't let the weird looking Eric kid come along comments. Why wish for a connection with people who you deem worthless? It doesn't make sense.

The "Eric wanted to kill and was willing to die and Dylan wanted to die and was willing to kill" statement is meant to convey that Eric was in it solely for the thrill of killing, to see the suffering, etc. Of course he wanted to kill, but his statements suggest it wasn't for those reasons. To me, it seems more like if he couldn't be part of it, if he couldn't get the respect or the notice he craved, then he'd destroy it. I think he wanted to die, too, since he didn't envision any kind of future for himself, and maybe these comments are part of the reason. And, of course Dylan wanted to die, but he wasn't killing reluctantly (as evidenced by his planning beforehand and actions that day). He wanted to kill, too. I don't believe the "he didn't want to die alone" crap. I think for whatever reason he couldn't just pull the trigger on himself and used the killing as a means of not being able to back out of killing himself. He wouldn't be able to live with the consequences of killing people so it made suicide more necessity for him than choice.

Well him being unable to pull the trigger isn't contradicted by not wanting to die alone, and you would know the plan originated with a girl in mind.  I also don't think it says Eric wanted to do it to see suffering or whatever, or that Dylan was killing reluctantly; all it says is murder is primary and suicide secondary with Eric, and suicide primary and murder secondary with Dylan. I agree it could be both were primary for both of them say, but I think what Fuselier proposes is quite plausible too. I don't think I have to buy the rest of his mastermind psycho/follower saddo or have cost imply reluctance to buy "Eric wanted to kill at the cost of dying; Dylan wanted to die at the cost of killing."

cakeman wrote:

[choice.

I also don't think it says Eric wanted to do it to see suffering or whatever, or that Dylan was killing reluctantly; all it says is murder is primary and suicide secondary with Eric, and suicide primary and murder secondary with Dylan.[/quote]
I know there is a video of Fuselier himself discussing this but I'm unable to find it, so unfortunately I have to quote you Cullen's interpretation of Fuselier's findings from his depressive and the psychopath article.

"Usually psychopathic killers crave the stimulation of violence. That is why they are often serial killers—murdering regularly to feed their addiction."

"Harris was not a wayward boy who could have been rescued. Harris, they believe, was irretrievable. He was a brilliant killer without a conscience, searching for the most diabolical scheme imaginable. If he had lived to adulthood and developed his murderous skills for many more years, there is no telling what he could have done. His death at Columbine may have stopped him from doing something even worse."

Fuselier specifically mentioned Eric wanting to see suffering and if I find the video I'll link it. Must have gotten taken down in one of the Youtube purges. As for Dylan killing reluctantly, I'm not sure how much of Cullen's "poor little Dylan was dragged into this" is of his own making and how much is Fuselier's because I don't remember if Fuselier addressed that point specifically.

Quote :

I know there is a video of Fuselier himself discussing this but I'm unable to find it, so unfortunately I have to quote you Cullen's interpretation of Fuselier's findings from his depressive and the psychopath article.

"Usually psychopathic killers crave the stimulation of violence. That is why they are often serial killers—murdering regularly to feed their addiction."

"Harris was not a wayward boy who could have been rescued. Harris, they believe, was irretrievable. He was a brilliant killer without a conscience, searching for the most diabolical scheme imaginable. If he had lived to adulthood and developed his murderous skills for many more years, there is no telling what he could have done. His death at Columbine may have stopped him from doing something even worse."

Fuselier specifically mentioned Eric wanting to see suffering and if I find the video I'll link it. Must have gotten taken down in one of the Youtube purges. As for Dylan killing reluctantly, I'm not sure how much of Cullen's "poor little Dylan was dragged into this" is of his own making and how much is Fuselier's because I don't remember if Fuselier addressed that point specifically.

I'm aware of Cullen and Fuselier. Hard not to repeat myself when it seems like the post you quoted was ignored. The focus was specifically on Fuselier's quote about Eric wanting to kill primarily and Dylan wanting to die primarily, which I think has legs, and not on the other aspects of his ideas such as that Eric was a psychopathic mastermind and Dylan a reluctant, depressed follower, which I don't. I don't see those as a package deal. They don't have to be mentally ill to want to kill or to die. So supplying other quotes about those things is irrelevant - I'm not commenting on those. We probably agree about them.

I think the fact that Dylan was seemingly the originator of the whole idea, the fact that he was whooping it up on the day, and most of his comments to the victims show that he was just as much if not more wanting to kill than Eric.

I agree with you elmar about Eric in your earlier posts

That strikes me as a bit superficial. Yes, Dylan seems to be the originator of the idea - but that leaves open the question whether it was primarily motivated by suicide or by killing. I can just as well say that Dylan's whole journal was a suicide note and that it contains the first inklings of the plan, showing it to be a suicide plan. You can reason in either direction - this is killing, and Dylan wanted it so it was about killing for him; or Dylan, the suicidal one, wanted to do the killing, so the killing was about suicide. 

One could say similar things for the rest. Suicidal people tend to be happy once they finally get the courage or means to commit the act. And I trust you know e. g. Kate Batten at least would say their comments were motivated more by what people were doing, e. g. if they were praying or said oh my god, they mocked Christianity, etc.  Also arguably confounded by being in public and with Eric. 

It seems to me Krabbe takes the view of Fuselier's sans the mental illness.

Ive read a mothers reckoning and judging from this and hes own journal I think its obvious that he wanted to die. I wish I had more access to other experts on this issue, but it seems to me like school shooters have had a deep seated problem with depression and suicidal thoughts. Atleast, wether the experts agree that bullying plays a role or not, I belive that most seem to support the notion that theres a number of setbacks

Norwegian wrote:

Ive read a mothers reckoning and judging from this and hes own journal I think its obvious that he wanted to die. I wish I had more access to other experts on this issue, but it seems to me like school shooters have had a deep seated problem with depression and suicidal thoughts. Atleast, wether the experts agree that bullying plays a role or not, I belive that most seem to support the notion that theres a number of setbacks

Well, Emma Gonzalez basically admitted she bullied Nikolas Cruze, juse because he was "different" She's a piece of garbage and schools need to take bullying seriously. Enough is enough.

bradt93 wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ive read a mothers reckoning and judging from this and hes own journal I think its obvious that he wanted to die. I wish I had more access to other experts on this issue, but it seems to me like school shooters have had a deep seated problem with depression and suicidal thoughts. Atleast, wether the experts agree that bullying plays a role or not, I belive that most seem to support the notion that theres a number of setbacks

Well, Emma Gonzalez basically admitted she bullied Nikolas Cruze, juse because he was "different" She's a piece of garbage and schools need to take bullying seriously. Enough is enough.

Stop derailing threads.

QuestionMark wrote:

bradt93 wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ive read a mothers reckoning and judging from this and hes own journal I think its obvious that he wanted to die. I wish I had more access to other experts on this issue, but it seems to me like school shooters have had a deep seated problem with depression and suicidal thoughts. Atleast, wether the experts agree that bullying plays a role or not, I belive that most seem to support the notion that theres a number of setbacks

Well, Emma Gonzalez basically admitted she bullied Nikolas Cruze, juse because he was "different" She's a piece of garbage and schools need to take bullying seriously. Enough is enough.

Stop derailing threads.

Listen here, I know you don't like me, but don't tell me what to do okay thanks.

bradt93 wrote:

Listen here, I know you don't like me, but don't tell me what to do okay thanks.

I may have been too forceful or pushy when I said that, but it's well within my right to ask you to stay on topic. Because it's incredibly annoying when you keep interjecting topics that aren't related to the thread you're posting it in.

[quote="Lunkhead McGrath"]

Tommy QTR wrote:

If the ketchup tampon thing never happened (Cullen thinks it "probably did," but that "the details are murky") than the worst bullying I know of directed at E&D specifically was when Dan Lab punched Eric in the face, which Eric said "didn't hurt" (boy, now THERE'S a good phrase for not taking Eric's journals at face value!)

From what I've read, there was an exchange of words between Dan and Eric (possibly over Kristi) before this happened, so apparently there was a fight that quickly turned physical. From that day on, Dan's name appeared on the hit list.

jada887 wrote:

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

Tommy QTR wrote:

If the ketchup tampon thing never happened (Cullen thinks it "probably did," but that "the details are murky") than the worst bullying I know of directed at E&D specifically was when Dan Lab punched Eric in the face, which Eric said "didn't hurt" (boy, now THERE'S a good phrase for not taking Eric's journals at face value!)

From what I've read, there was an exchange of words between Dan and Eric (possibly over Kristi) before this happened, so apparently there was a fight that quickly turned physical. From that day on, Dan's name appeared on the hit list.

Aside from the tampon incident, the worst thing I read about was that in gym class Eric won a game of Biff (dodgeball). This pissed off the jocks so they banded together for the next game and were hitting him in the head with balls and after class slammed him into a locker.

thelmar wrote:

Aside from the tampon incident, the worst thing I read about was that in gym class Eric won a game of Biff (dodgeball). This pissed off the jocks so they banded together for the next game and were hitting him in the head with balls and after class slammed him into a locker.

I re-read those parts of the 11k document that detail the extent of the bullying, and it seems that most of those offenses took place during gym class, which is corroborated by others in that document. There's an interview with a jock who teased Dylan for his unathletic build (he was nicknamed, "stretch") and his poor coordination (he states that he was "bad" at sports). Another interview comes from a jock who stated that Eric had a "big head with a small body." Brooks even states that this verbal abuse caused Eric to avoid taking off his shirt and exposing his sunken chest (i.e., his pectus excavatum) in gym class. However, I would like to point out that everyone got harassed by the jocks in gym class, even jocks themselves. So, therefore, the jocks didn't cause Eric's manic homicidal ideation because it was already in his emotional toolbox. The jocks gave him a rational justification for his plan and an accessible target (e.g., why single out Denverites when I can take out everyone I need in one location?).

jada887 wrote:

So, therefore, the jocks didn't cause Eric's manic homicidal ideation because it was already in his emotional toolbox. The jocks gave him a rational justification for his plan and an accessible target (e.g., why single out Denverites when I can take out everyone I need in one location?).

I never implied, nor do I believe, that bullying caused Columbine.

I hope DeAngelis goes to his grave feeling guilt of what he could've done to prevent this massacre. He was in charge of the school and he created that toxic environment.

thelmar wrote:

jada887 wrote:

So, therefore, the jocks didn't cause Eric's manic homicidal ideation because it was already in his emotional toolbox. The jocks gave him a rational justification for his plan and an accessible target (e.g., why single out Denverites when I can take out everyone I need in one location?).

I never implied, nor do I believe, that bullying caused Columbine.

Oh, ok. Sorry.

bradt93 wrote:

I hope DeAngelis goes to his grave feeling guilt of what he could've done to prevent this massacre. He was in charge of the school and he created that toxic environment.

I completely agree. He got plenty of bullying complaints throughout the years, and he did little. (I don't believe he did nothing because it seems he instituted hall monitoring after complaints about physical bullying in the hallways, but that wasn't enough).

bradt93 wrote:

I hope DeAngelis goes to his grave feeling guilt of what he could've done to prevent this massacre. He was in charge of the school and he created that toxic environment.

I don't care for the word "created," there. I think the kids created it. However he seems to have turned a blind eye to it.

I often wonder how I would handle other guys differently if you were to take me with the mentality I have now in my mid-30s and send me back through 7th through 12th grade. I'd probably have to lift weights for six hours every day or something like that or take martial arts. You couldn't bring a sap to school with you and have it in your back pocket, you'd get thrown right the hell out.

Bullying was not a motive. It may have been a contributing factor, but hardly the motive. The motive was suicide and fame('I want to leave a lasting impression on the world').

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

Tommy QTR wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Why would Dave Cullen be on this forum?

It's a joke because Cullen said that Eric and Dylan were never bullied.

He didn't say they were never bullied.  He said there was no evidence that the bullying led to the murders E&D committed.  He also said E&D "had some bad days, for sure" but were perpetrators of bullying far more than recipients of it.

If the ketchup tampon thing never happened (Cullen thinks it "probably did," but that "the details are murky") than the worst bullying I know of directed at E&D specifically was when Dan Lab punched Eric in the face, which Eric said "didn't hurt" (boy, now THERE'S a good phrase for not taking Eric's journals at face value!)

I view bullying as a lesser factor, not the primary factor.  The big smoking gun against the bullying accusation is, as has been pointed out, that nobody can come up with a good reason for why they didn't kill Evan Todd or any one who actually bullied them.  Cullen (somewhat ridiculously and questionably, to say the least) thinks that it's because they didn't blow up a football game, or a table full of jocks in the lunchroom.  

It is true that you can "have friends" and yet not feel "accepted"--that's how I sure as hell felt when I was in jr.sr. high.

I dont think Evan Todd actually bullied them, though. I think that he confused the two with other people. And this is where my take is that some accounts are exaggarated or falsely attributed. I think that Todd confused Eric and Dylan in that statement with other students

Evan Todd probably never bullied them. Ive reached a point where I think that- unless you have some sort of professional education or you have planned to go through with it yourselves in the past- we cannot fully comprehend why. Cause its extremely complex and it's way more complicated than at first glance. And yes, it seems likely that many of them have been bullied at some point. Wether or not this has anything to do with why they did it is a whole different issue.

The urban legend that Evan Todd bullied Eric and Dylan. False. He never mentioned Eric and Dylan specically in that interview.


This wasnt revenge for bullying. Its possible it may have been a factor, but it wasnt a direct cause. Im under the impression that very rarely is it directly because of bullying. But I do also get the impression it can be a factor. Its possible it may have been in regards to the Columbine shooting, allthough, I believe in Erics case he didnt actually care wether he was bullied or not.

Its possible it may have been more traumatizing for Dylan, if there ever was bullying towards them.

bradt93 wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ive read a mothers reckoning and judging from this and hes own journal I think its obvious that he wanted to die. I wish I had more access to other experts on this issue, but it seems to me like school shooters have had a deep seated problem with depression and suicidal thoughts. Atleast, wether the experts agree that bullying plays a role or not, I belive that most seem to support the notion that theres a number of setbacks

Well, Emma Gonzalez basically admitted she bullied Nikolas Cruze, juse because he was "different" She's a piece of garbage and schools need to take bullying seriously. Enough is enough.

Nope false. OT, but still. Its false news, perpetuated by the right wing media.
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Norwegian wrote:

The urban legend that Evan Todd bullied Eric and Dylan. False. He never mentioned Eric and Dylan specically in that interview.


This wasnt revenge for bullying. Its possible it may have been a factor, but it wasnt a direct cause. Im under the impression that very rarely is it directly because of bullying. But I do also get the impression it can be a factor. Its possible it may have been in regards to the Columbine shooting, allthough, I believe in Erics case he didnt actually care wether he was bullied or not.

Its possible it may have been more traumatizing for Dylan, if there ever was bullying towards them.

Evan Todd has outright bragged about bullying Eric and Dylan.

And now back to basics:

They didnt do it specifically because of bullying. We have to understand the Psychology of Eric Harris, first and fore most, and in that case bullying had nothing to do with it. It pretty much boils down to Harris' perception of the human race and natural selection. Bullying is too simple of an explanation. It wasnt retaliation for harassment on Erics part.

IDK about Dylan. He was depressed. I think he was hurting really badly and of course this played a real part in why he did it. I think he Just wanted to end the hurting and the pain and didnt care if he took people with him.

Norwegian wrote:

And now back to basics:

They didnt do it specifically because of bullying. We have to understand the Psychology of Eric Harris, first and fore most, and in that case bullying had nothing to do with it. It pretty much boils down to Harris' perception of the human race and natural selection. Bullying is too simple of an explanation. It wasnt retaliation for harassment on Erics part.

IDK about Dylan. He was depressed. I think he was hurting really badly and of course this played a real part in why he did it. I think he Just wanted to end the hurting and the pain and didnt care if he took people with him.  

Doctor Todd Grande feels Dylan was a psychopath with covert narcissism, not depressed.

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

The urban legend that Evan Todd bullied Eric and Dylan. False. He never mentioned Eric and Dylan specically in that interview.


This wasnt revenge for bullying. Its possible it may have been a factor, but it wasnt a direct cause. Im under the impression that very rarely is it directly because of bullying. But I do also get the impression it can be a factor. Its possible it may have been in regards to the Columbine shooting, allthough, I believe in Erics case he didnt actually care wether he was bullied or not.

Its possible it may have been more traumatizing for Dylan, if there ever was bullying towards them.

Evan Todd has outright bragged about bullying Eric and Dylan.

Its not true. Read 'The search for truth at Columbine'. The media mis-represented one particular quote to mean Eric and Dylan. But much like any other info that came out in the wake of the Columbine shooting, its simply inaccurate.

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

The urban legend that Evan Todd bullied Eric and Dylan. False. He never mentioned Eric and Dylan specically in that interview.


This wasnt revenge for bullying. Its possible it may have been a factor, but it wasnt a direct cause. Im under the impression that very rarely is it directly because of bullying. But I do also get the impression it can be a factor. Its possible it may have been in regards to the Columbine shooting, allthough, I believe in Erics case he didnt actually care wether he was bullied or not.

Its possible it may have been more traumatizing for Dylan, if there ever was bullying towards them.

Evan Todd has outright bragged about bullying Eric and Dylan.

Its not true. Read 'The search for truth at Columbine'. The media mis-represented one particular quote to mean Eric and Dylan. But much like any other info that came out in the wake of the Columbine shooting, its simply inaccurate.

"They were weirdos of course we bullied 'em". In the wake of Columbine who else could he be referring to?

Norwegian wrote:

And now back to basics:

They didnt do it specifically because of bullying. We have to understand the Psychology of Eric Harris, first and fore most, and in that case bullying had nothing to do with it. It pretty much boils down to Harris' perception of the human race and natural selection. Bullying is too simple of an explanation. It wasnt retaliation for harassment on Erics part.

IDK about Dylan. He was depressed. I think he was hurting really badly and of course this played a real part in why he did it. I think he Just wanted to end the hurting and the pain and didnt care if he took people with him.

Bree Pasquale said in the interview right after the shooting or when it was still happening that Eric told her it's because people in school were mean to him last year. And she is extremely reliable witness.

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

The urban legend that Evan Todd bullied Eric and Dylan. False. He never mentioned Eric and Dylan specically in that interview.


This wasnt revenge for bullying. Its possible it may have been a factor, but it wasnt a direct cause. Im under the impression that very rarely is it directly because of bullying. But I do also get the impression it can be a factor. Its possible it may have been in regards to the Columbine shooting, allthough, I believe in Erics case he didnt actually care wether he was bullied or not.

Its possible it may have been more traumatizing for Dylan, if there ever was bullying towards them.

Evan Todd has outright bragged about bullying Eric and Dylan.

He outright said they were gay and devil worshipers practicing voodoo too, and was kinda upset with them with the whole nearly murdered thing. And he was several years below them.

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

The urban legend that Evan Todd bullied Eric and Dylan. False. He never mentioned Eric and Dylan specically in that interview.


This wasnt revenge for bullying. Its possible it may have been a factor, but it wasnt a direct cause. Im under the impression that very rarely is it directly because of bullying. But I do also get the impression it can be a factor. Its possible it may have been in regards to the Columbine shooting, allthough, I believe in Erics case he didnt actually care wether he was bullied or not.

Its possible it may have been more traumatizing for Dylan, if there ever was bullying towards them.

Evan Todd has outright bragged about bullying Eric and Dylan.

Here's the thing. That interview isn't reliable at all due to the fact that Evan Todd still thought Eric and Dylan were in the TCM, which we all know they weren't. They were associated with them to an extent, but they weren't in the group. Also, he was talking about the TCM in general, and bunched in Eric and Dylan together.

Evan Todd did not know Eric and Dylan personally. They probably seen each other around the school several times, but that's it. With how Eric and Dylan reacted to him when they saw him in the library is indication that they did not know him. Can you imagine how they'd actually react to someone who did bully them? Dylan was the first one to notice Todd, and said, "Look who we have have here"; "Just some fat fuck". And Dylan kept saying to Todd to "Show me your face". They didn't acknowledge his name, or how he looked, because they did not know him. Eric didn't even give a shit about Todd at the moment.

Ivan wrote:

"They were weirdos of course we bullied 'em". In the wake of Columbine who else could he be referring to?

To play Devil's advocate, Todd also claimed they practiced voodoo, painted their nails black, and groped each other's crotches. Why should we take him at his word?

Norwegian wrote:

lol wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

The urban legend that Evan Todd bullied Eric and Dylan. False. He never mentioned Eric and Dylan specically in that interview.

Or he generally confused the two with other people at the school. Which is also very likely. Or the media didnt make any proper distinction when they wrote that article. One can make this into whatever fits their narrative, but what it does suggests is that this doesnt actually proove that Todd bullied them.

If you read the entire article that Langmann wrote, there were others that engaged in gay sex at the school. Fact.

So we have to ask the question from there: Is it because he genuinely associated Eric and Dylan with the TCM?

Is it out of lousy reporting at the time Where the media didnt bother to distinguish between the TCM and Eric and Dylan(Ive seen some examples of this too)?

Of course there are several possible explanations here, so we cant simply put argue that Evan Todd bullied them, when in fact this doesnt count as evidence. Take into account, also, that according to the script I just posted another guy was very similar to Dylan and for some time people though he was the shooter.

And take into account that there were other members of the TCM that engaged in the behaviour that Todd described. Thats also the context in the text I Just referenced. We all want to make perspectives fit into our world view. Reality doesnt always work that way. So sometimes we have to challenge what we allready think we know. Its possible that he confused Eric and Dylan with other people, its possible that the media didnt get their facts straight. What this suggests to me is that its not much of evidence for the idea that this bullying reference was directed specifically towards Eric and Dylan.



This wasnt revenge for bullying. Its possible it may have been a factor, but it wasnt a direct cause. Im under the impression that very rarely is it directly because of bullying. But I do also get the impression it can be a factor. Its possible it may have been in regards to the Columbine shooting, allthough, I believe in Erics case he didnt actually care wether he was bullied or not.

Its possible it may have been more traumatizing for Dylan, if there ever was bullying towards them.

Evan Todd has outright bragged about bullying Eric and Dylan.

Here's the thing. That interview isn't reliable at all due to the fact that Evan Todd still thought Eric and Dylan were in the TCM, which we all know they weren't. They were associated with them to an extent, but they weren't in the group. Also, he was talking about the TCM in general, and bunched in Eric and Dylan together.

Evan Todd did not know Eric and Dylan personally. They probably seen each other around the school several times, but that's it. With how Eric and Dylan reacted to him when they saw him in the library is indication that they did not know him. Can you imagine how they'd actually react to someone who did bully them? Dylan was the first one to notice Todd, and said, "Look who we have have here"; "Just some fat fuck". And Dylan kept saying to Todd to "Show me your face". They didn't acknowledge his name, or how he looked, because they did not know him. Eric didn't even give a shit about Todd at the moment.

One has to take into account the point of the script I Just referenced by Peter Langmann.

If we read more out of the script we find that

1: There were actually a few people at the school that were members of the TCM and that engaged in gay sex and wore horns on their Helmets.

2: The media provided inaccurate reporting.

3: There was actually another guy very similar to Dylan that became a suspect. We also find that one of the guys that engaged in gay sex also was named Eric.

So than that begs the question:

Did Todd actually lump Eric and Dylan with the other TCMers as you say?

Or did the media engage in irresponsible reporting, which is Just as possible?

Or was it a reference to the other Eric, which, in fact, was the one engaging in gay sex?

What Langmanns text does suggests, regardless what is true with that statement, is that there isnt much evidence, given that this Could mean a lot of things. Even with the media portrayal at this point in history and inaccurate reporting. Everyone wants a Quick fix answer to why school shootings happens in the US and elsewhere. They do not exist.

QuestionMark wrote:

Ivan wrote:

"They were weirdos of course we bullied 'em". In the wake of Columbine who else could he be referring to?

To play Devil's advocate, Todd also claimed they practiced voodoo, painted their nails black, and groped each other's crotches. Why should we take him at his word?

Because we shouldnt. And theres a very clear reason why. Its not what he says that makes the whole thing open to doubt. Its the entire context that makes it open to doubt. We cant really be certain that this was, in fact, a reference to Eric and Dylan.

It Could easily be used as evidence that Eric and Dylan were bullied by Todd. But when you look at Peter Langmanns contextualizing of the text it becomes very bleak. Or at least there are different ways we can interpret such a text. What I make out of it is that I dont see it as solid proof that he bullied Dylan and Eric in particular, allthough its a mean spirited comment as far as I see it.

Its possible that others may have bullied the two(Im not really sure about the accuracy as Ive seen statements back and forth on this). It also seems to be true that there was a lot of bullying at Columbine. But are all statements about bullying accurately represented in this case? They are not. In fact, there are some gross misrepresentations that the media provided because they didnt care to separate between Eric, Dylan and the TCM

Well, I think bullying should start being classified as mental abuse, but at school. Their should be charges against the kid and the parents now too.