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 Review of Randy Brown's book

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thelmar

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PostSubject: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeSun Jun 21, 2020 4:28 pm

There's a lot to talk about. So much that I'm less than 1/3 of the way through and thought it best I start a thread so I don't miss discussing some of the interesting stuff.

If you've ever read anything Randy has written, you'll know what to expect with regard to his "voice." If you haven't, it'll take some getting used to. He tends to write in short sentences, repeats things a lot for emphasis, and sometimes there are, for lack of a better term, stream of consciousness-type of ramblings where he is trying to get all of his thoughts and feelings down on paper. For me, this makes it somewhat of a slower read as I don't get quite as caught up in the words as I do with other books. The editing is not stellar, either, so if you are a grammar or punctuation fanatic, it may bother you. I sort of view it as most of this being his journals "as is" so things were left uncorrected.

I do want to state, for those who still think that Randy had no business being as involved in the investigation or the aftermath of Columbine as he has been, some of what he says in here may change your mind. He felt, and appears to still feel, a lot of guilt and responsibility for not stopping Eric, for not recognizing what was going on with Dylan and for not helping him get through it. He seems to blame himself a lot for not doing more to get somebody to listen and take positive action. He feels like he missed signals, things that might have tipped him off to what would happen. He blames himself for not being more educated on what to look for. Realistically, he shouldn't feel this way. He did the responsible thing, reported the threats, followed up on those reports, and trusted that the police would do their jobs. But he has struggled a lot with the "what ifs" and I think this is why he has involved himself so much in things. To me, it seems like this is a way to assuage those feelings of guilt he carries, of making sure this didn't happen again, of helping him cope. Maybe we could argue that he inserted himself in things he didn't seem to belong in, but think about what a burden that perception of guilt must be for him, how much pain it has caused him and his family.

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thelmar

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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeSun Jun 21, 2020 4:42 pm

Since it is based a lot off of his journalings over the years, his thoughts (at least so far) do seem to change a bit over time. For instance, in the beginning he'd sort of settled on the belief that Dylan must have participated because Eric had threatened his loved ones, and that he did what he did as a way of protecting them. i.e., I'll help you kill these other people if you leave my mom and dad alone, type of thing. This sounds really silly to me but when I think about it more I think it's just a testament to how utterly fooled everyone had been by Dylan. He really was the last kid most would have suspected of being capable of an attack like this, so to rationalize it the people who knew him just had to believe he was coerced somehow. Everyone (i.e., society, not people on the forum) goes on about how scary and violent Eric was but at least you knew what to expect from him. Dylan fooled everyone.

Once Randy saw the Basement Tapes, this belief evolved. He saw that Dylan was no longer the boy he knew, that he had done this because he chose to. He saw that hate had taken over and changed him. I'm only into the late months of '00, and at this point Randy's thought process is that Eric's strong personality and "Luvox supported mania" had influence over the way Dylan viewed the world. I don't agree with this either. Absolutely they fed into each other's anger and hate but Dylan was already in that head space, Eric didn't drag him there. He just found someone to commiserate with.

Randy talks extensively about bullying and the toxic nature of Columbine. I think most of us know that he is 100% a believer in bullying (and the failure of the administration to address it) being the cause of Columbine. He repeatedly says how much he hates Columbine, how destructive a place it was for kids if they were not jocks, how DeAngelis and Coach Lowry (football) and other teachers and admin valued the jocks above all else. How this made other kids feel that they were not valued, that no one would stand up for them and when they don't value themselves, they don't value others and this makes the idea of killing seem justified to them.

He has provided a number of pretty outrageous examples of the Columbine staff/ admin. which I can outline if anyone's interested in this thread continuing.

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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeSun Jun 21, 2020 5:23 pm

I would love that! Thank you!! I have to be honest, I've been bouncing around the book looking at things about the depositions and seeing the basement tapes etc. and I've been deluged with school work, so i want to start reading it again when I am a little less busy.

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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeSun Jun 21, 2020 7:01 pm

Aaron Brown was in the cafeteria when the shooting started and he left his backpack there when he escaped. When the pack was returned, everything inside was moldy and ruined from the water on the floor so the Brown's tossed out its contents. They didn't inventory what was inside. At the end of the year, his Math teacher called to say that he never handed in his math book and if he didn't return it he had to pay $40.00. Judy told her that it was probably one of the moldy books they threw out and the teacher told Judy to ask Aaron to try to remember if he had the math book with him that day. Judy thought this was insensitive, to make him re-live those memories just for a math book. They ignored her. When it came time for report cards, the school wouldn't send Aaron's... until he paid the $40.00.

The 1999 Columbine season was dedicated to Matt Kechter. When the boys won, they chanted Matt's name. The boys on the team gave the championship trophy to Matt's little brother that day. Randy wrote that he'd believe that Columbine cared about more than just sports and winning if they had allowed the Kechter's to keep the trophy. Several months later he was at the school and saw that the trophy was on display by the Math office. [I think it's possible the Kechter's may have donated it back to help the kids see something positive, but Randy thinks the school took it back].

At Columbine school board meetings, the parents/ students are allowed to air complaints, and then the board is supposed to review it and address that complaint at the next meeting. Randy alleges that this never happens. They let you vent and then nothing ever gets addressed. They never mention the complaints again at the next meeting, they just let the next set of people complain.

The school district had no intention of building a new library after the attack. They even held an open house to show off the new wallpaper and paint they were going to use to fix up the library.
This didn't sit right with the parents of those that were in the library on 4/20 and they took it upon themselves to raise $3.1 million to have the library ripped out and build a new one in a different spot. The school district contributed no money to this effort. According to Randy, however, the school district did spend $9 million on a new football stadium at that time.

Even though the school didn’t pay for demolishing the library and building the new one, they were in charge of the construction. One of the architects wanted to leave an area in the library intact to serve as an office. This just so happened to be the area where Kyle Velasquez was murdered. Of course, his parents vehemently objected but the school's committe of architects refused to re-do the plan. It wasn't until ALL of the parents of the victims banded together and demanded the library be completely demolished that the school district decided to do the right thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeSun Jun 21, 2020 7:20 pm

Even for someone like me, who wasn't there that day, when I was in the cafeteria last year I felt a real heaviness, like I had to get out, it was a lot. I cannot imagine them keeping any of the library, there was way too much violence and way too many horrible memories.

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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeSun Jun 21, 2020 8:34 pm

I was really interested in his notes and information about Mark Manes's trial, I've never heard anyone talk about it.

Was Judy deposed during the depositions that the families were at with the Klebolds and Harris's or was that a different one?

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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2020 6:29 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Thank you very much for these excerpts. Please, feel free to share anything interesting, since many of us here don't know if we'll ever come across Randy's book.

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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2020 2:40 pm

Does he talk more about the basement tapes???
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2020 4:51 pm

thelmar wrote:
Aaron Brown was in the cafeteria when the shooting started and he left his backpack there when he escaped. When the pack was returned, everything inside was moldy and ruined from the water on the floor so the Brown's tossed out its contents. They didn't inventory what was inside. At the end of the year, his Math teacher called to say that he never handed in his math book and if he didn't return it he had to pay $40.00. Judy told her that it was probably one of the moldy books they threw out and the teacher told Judy to ask Aaron to try to remember if he had the math book with him that day. Judy thought this was insensitive, to make him re-live those memories just for a math book. They ignored her. When it came time for report cards, the school wouldn't send Aaron's... until he paid the $40.00.  

-snip-

The school district had no intention of building a new library after the attack. They even held an open house to show off the new wallpaper and paint they were going to use to fix up the library.
This didn't sit right with the parents of those that were in the library on 4/20 and they took it upon themselves to raise $3.1 million to have the library ripped out and build a new one in a different spot. The school district contributed no money to this effort. According to Randy, however, the school district did spend $9 million on a new football stadium at that time.
 

These two things stood out to me the most. It makes it seem like the school board did not care one bit about the shooting and the victims.

I do find it interesting how Dylan had people so fooled, yet people don't speak of Eric the same way. I wonder if the Klebolds and Browns weren't just a bit jaded?
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2020 8:20 pm

Screamingophelia wrote:
I was really interested in his notes and information about Mark Manes's trial, I've never heard anyone talk about it.

Was Judy deposed during the depositions that the families were at with the Klebolds and Harris's or was that a different one?

I thought the Manes notes were interesting, too, as the only info I ever really learned was from the papers. I liked how he relayed what the parents had to say, along with the what his defense attorney presented.

I'm not up to the part with the depositions yet. I'll let you know.

James411 wrote:
Does he talk more about the basement tapes???
At least to the point where I am at in the book, not much and what he does say wasn't anything we haven't heard before.

hvernon wrote:
I do find it interesting how Dylan had people so fooled, yet people don't speak of Eric the same way. I wonder if the Klebolds and Browns weren't just a bit jaded?
It's really weird to me. And even after Randy realizes that Dylan was full of hate and wanted to do this, he still writes several paragraphs about how Eric died a failure, a coward, and a bully because the bombs didn't go off, he didn't kill as many people as he wanted, he didn't have a fire fight with police, etc.. Yet- no mention of Dylan. Every single one of these things applies to Dylan, as well, but he only speaks of Eric. Kinda Cullen-esque, actually.


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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2020 8:31 pm

[quote="hvernon"]
thelmar wrote:
Aaron Brown was in the cafeteria when the shooting started and he left his backpack there when he escaped. When the pack was returned, everything inside was moldy and ruined from the water on the floor so the Brown's tossed out its contents. They didn't inventory what was inside. At the end of the year, his Math teacher called to say that he never handed in his math book and if he didn't return it he had to pay $40.00. Judy told her that it was probably one of the moldy books they threw out and the teacher told Judy to ask Aaron to try to remember if he had the math book with him that day. Judy thought this was insensitive, to make him re-live those memories just for a math book. They ignored her. When it came time for report cards, the school wouldn't send Aaron's... until he paid the $40.00.  

-snip-

The school district had no intention of building a new library after the attack. They even held an open house to show off the new wallpaper and paint they were going to use to fix up the library.
This didn't sit right with the parents of those that were in the library on 4/20 and they took it upon themselves to raise $3.1 million to have the library ripped out and build a new one in a different spot. The school district contributed no money to this effort. According to Randy, however, the school district did spend $9 million on a new football stadium at that time.
 

These two things stood out to me the most. It makes it seem like the school board did not care one bit about the shooting and the victims.

I do find it interesting how Dylan had people so fooled, yet people don't speak of Eric the same way. I wonder if the Klebolds and Browns weren't just a bit jaded? [/quote

As far as the JeffCo stadium which is now 60 years old, it was renovated in 2005. You have to understand JeffCo is a HUGE district and Columbine is one of the most well of schools in said district. There are more than 20 high schools the size of Columbine in the district not counting all the middle/junior high and elementary schools. They just had millions and millions spent renovating the school in 1995. It really wouldn't be fair to the thousands and thousands of other more low income students to not have facilities. Colorado is 48th in the US in K-12 funding, it comes from local taxes and property bonds but it has to be used by the entire district.

Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled they built a new library, the state helped because the extra $50 a year for the Columbine license plates went towards the foundation for the library until the amount was reached. It's just Columbine has financial resources places like Lakewood and Arvada don't.

As far as the football trophy I'm sure my sister knows, she was varsity poms captain her senior year. There's no reason the Browns would know that, they did not know the Ketcher family and had no involvement in any of the sports.

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thelmar

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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2020 8:34 pm

He talks a lot of Judy and Sue. Even says they are soulmates and they understand each other. Honestly, it's hard to know what to think. He and Judy appear to have a completely different perception of the relationship than Sue. So, either Sue was closer to them than she now wants to admit or they were on completely different planes during their friendship.
Randy does say that at one point when he asked Tom what they (the Brown's) could do for the Klebold's, Tom said, "Stop talking," so they (or at least Tom) were evidently pretty unhappy with how many interviews the Browns were doing.

Randy talks about how hard all of this was emotionally on his family. He became suicidal, Judy cried every day. After Carla Hochhalter's suicide she even ran away from home with her suitcase because she couldn't deal with all of the sadness. She returned later that night. He said Brooks went into a deep depression, was smoking/ drinking, sleeping all the time, couldn't hold a job, and was very difficult to get along with.

He talks about how the police wanted Brooks to take a lie detector test but not trusting the police they had it administered independently. The FBI then began hounding them to let them administer one with assurances that they'd "make sure he passed." Randy was very suspicious of this and refused them repeatedly.

Two other things about Tom Klebold I found intriguing:
According to Randy, Tom made comments that led Randy to believe that he blamed the Brown's for not warning them about Eric.
Also, Randy alleges that Judy called Tom in May 2000 to update him on the latest information of the case and she said Tom replied, “Dylan was building pipe bombs?”
Um, what?!?
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2020 8:37 pm

milennialrebelette wrote:
As far as the football trophy I'm sure my sister knows, she was varsity poms captain her senior year. There's no reason the Browns would know that, they did not know the Ketcher family and had no involvement in any of the sports.

If you wouldn't mind asking her, I'd love to know her take on it. In interviews I've read from the Kechter's around that time, it seemed like they felt that Columbine winning that big game was an important part of the healing, of helping to bring the community together to focus on something more positive for a change. If that's the case, I can completely see them donating the trophy back to the school to be shared by all of the kids as a reminder of something good.
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2020 10:21 pm

Was there any mention of the infamous "Dylan, you're Jewish" part of the Basement Tapes?

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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2020 10:27 pm

thelmar wrote:
He talks a lot of Judy and Sue. Even says they are soulmates and they understand each other. Honestly, it's hard to know what to think. He and Judy appear to have a completely different perception of the relationship than Sue. So, either Sue was closer to them than she now wants to admit or they were on completely different planes during their friendship.
Randy does say that at one point when he asked Tom what they (the Brown's) could do for the Klebold's, Tom said, "Stop talking," so they (or at least Tom) were evidently pretty unhappy with how many interviews the Browns were doing.

Randy talks about how hard all of this was emotionally on his family. He became suicidal, Judy cried every day. After Carla Hochhalter's suicide she even ran away from home with her suitcase because she couldn't deal with all of the sadness. She returned later that night. He said Brooks went into a deep depression, was smoking/ drinking, sleeping all the time, couldn't hold a job, and was very difficult to get along with.

He talks about how the police wanted Brooks to take a lie detector test but not trusting the police they had it administered independently. The FBI then began hounding them to let them administer one with assurances that they'd "make sure he passed." Randy was very suspicious of this and refused them repeatedly.

Two other things about Tom Klebold I found intriguing:
According to Randy, Tom made comments that led Randy to believe that he blamed the Brown's for not warning them about Eric.
Also, Randy alleges that Judy called Tom in May 2000 to update him on the latest information of the case and she said Tom replied, “Dylan was building pipe bombs?”
Um, what?!?

I really do believe that there was not a ton of things hidden at Dylan's house, I thought at first from AMR that Dylan left on that Friday before to store something at Eric's while cleaning, but then again, if Dylan was the one cleaning his room and his mom wasn't... why would he have to hide anything?  Maybe it is because I'm older now but I would have asked why he had to suddenly leave too.. finish cleaning and then you can go. I think Dylan knew Eric was not really going to sleep in the guest room and they would just be up all night then he would leave, because there was no way Eric would sleep in a room with cat vomit. I don't know him.. never met him, but no, he would not sleep in a room with cat vomit.

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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2020 10:29 pm

Screamingophelia wrote:
Was there any mention of the infamous "Dylan, you're Jewish" part of the Basement Tapes?

Yes, I'd love to know this too!
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2020 11:06 pm

hvernon wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
Was there any mention of the infamous "Dylan, you're Jewish" part of the Basement Tapes?

Yes, I'd love to know this too!

Not so far.
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2020 11:17 pm

Geez, there is so much to comment on I don't know what to include and leave out. Lots of it are little curiosities that might not interest anyone but me.

For example, he talks about Greg Barnes' suicide and then says that Barnes' best friend was one of the worst bullies in the school. That Barnes' was a nice kid but his friend physically assaulted people, stalked girls, and was on steroids.
Not trying to call anyone out publically, but I have no idea who this was and if this is true?
If it is, it certainly makes you wonder to what degree the attack on the school factored into Greg's decision.

Or, that on one of the 911 calls from 4/20 Sheriff Stone asked a deputy to bring him a spare set of keys because he locked his keys in his car. The deputy and the 911 operator were commenting that this wasn't the first time that had happened.

Or that Brian and Lisa Rohrbough suffered a miscarriage at 25 weeks in 2000. A son.

Does anyone want to hear these random things that don't add to the conversation or do you want me to stick to things that advance what we know of the case?
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2020 11:21 pm

Screamingophelia wrote:
I really do believe that there was not a ton of things hidden at Dylan's house, I thought at first from AMR that Dylan left on that Friday before to store something at Eric's while cleaning, but then again, if Dylan was the one cleaning his room and his mom wasn't... why would he have to hide anything?  Maybe it is because I'm older now but I would have asked why he had to suddenly leave too.. finish cleaning and then you can go. I think Dylan knew Eric was not really going to sleep in the guest room and they would just be up all night then he would leave, because there was no way Eric would sleep in a room with cat vomit. I don't know him.. never met him, but no, he would not sleep in a room with cat vomit.

I think most of the stuff was done at Eric's because Tom worked from home. But, nearly a year later, after knowing that they had made bombs for the cafeteria and were throwing pipe bombs and crickets during the attack and Tom is bewildered that Dylan was building bombs? How deep was his denial?
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2020 11:29 pm

thelmar wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
I really do believe that there was not a ton of things hidden at Dylan's house, I thought at first from AMR that Dylan left on that Friday before to store something at Eric's while cleaning, but then again, if Dylan was the one cleaning his room and his mom wasn't... why would he have to hide anything?  Maybe it is because I'm older now but I would have asked why he had to suddenly leave too.. finish cleaning and then you can go. I think Dylan knew Eric was not really going to sleep in the guest room and they would just be up all night then he would leave, because there was no way Eric would sleep in a room with cat vomit. I don't know him.. never met him, but no, he would not sleep in a room with cat vomit.

I think most of the stuff was done at Eric's because Tom worked from home. But, nearly a year later, after knowing that they had made bombs for the cafeteria and were throwing pipe bombs and crickets during the attack and Tom is bewildered that Dylan was building bombs? How deep was his denial?

I remember in AMR Sue said Tom was angry at the school, Eric, guns etc.. but when they saw the basement tapes he was finally mad at Dylan but I really think Tom was in deep denial about Dylan''s anger. I always thought Tom saw Dylan as a version of himself and I think he thought that they were really close. 

Sue said too that they were never on the same page, so maybe Sue came to terms with the different parts of Dylan and Tom didn't?

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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2020 11:42 pm

thelmar wrote:

It's really weird to me. And even after Randy realizes that Dylan was full of hate and wanted to do this, he still writes several paragraphs about how Eric died a failure, a coward, and a bully because the bombs didn't go off, he didn't kill as many people as he wanted, he didn't have a fire fight with police, etc.. Yet- no mention of Dylan. Every single one of these things applies to Dylan, as well, but he only speaks of Eric. Kinda Cullen-esque, actually.



He also wrote the same thing twice. The same paragraphs about Eric are repeated later in the book, almost word for word.
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2020 11:47 pm

thelmar wrote:
Geez, there is so much to comment on I don't know what to include and leave out. Lots of it are little curiosities that might not interest anyone but me.

For example, he talks about Greg Barnes' suicide and then says that Barnes' best friend was one of the worst bullies in the school. That Barnes' was a nice kid but his friend physically assaulted people, stalked girls, and was on steroids.
Not trying to call anyone out publically, but I have no idea who this was and if this is true?
If it is, it certainly makes you wonder to what degree the attack on the school factored into Greg's decision.

Or, that on one of the 911 calls from 4/20 Sheriff Stone asked a deputy to bring him a spare set of keys because he locked his keys in his car. The deputy and the 911 operator were commenting that this wasn't the first time that had happened.

Or that Brian and Lisa Rohrbough suffered a miscarriage at 25 weeks in 2000. A son.

Does anyone want to hear these random things that don't add to the conversation or do you want me to stick to things that advance what we know of the case?  

Jeez, there's some deeply personal information in this book. I wonder if Randy asked all these people if he could publish some of this stuff?
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2020 11:52 pm

Once again, I don't want to offend or upset anyone, but in the end, it's just badly written and edited book. I am glad I read it, but it was a struggle. He repeats himself over and over and over again. There is no real structure or idea behind the book. I know it's presented as diary of some sort, but it's still a book, and he could've edited it before publishing.
He presents theories or conspiracies without any proof to support it. For example, he writes that Wayne Harris had a friend in Littleton's police who protected Eric. He's sure Eric killed Dylan. He's sure Wayne Harris mentally abused Eric. I mean, he didn't really knew his family. I am not saying it didn't really happened, but you have to have some proofs before you accuse another person of something like that.
He provided surprisingly little insight. For example, he writes A LOT about bullying in Columbine. For him it's the main reason why it all happened. But at the same time, all examples of said bullying are taken from another books or official reports. Rocky Hoffschneider's abuse of students, incidents of jocks being protected from the law, ketchup incident, etc. It was strange to me, because he lives there, he's a part of community, he knows people, but Larkin's book was much better in terms of describing the toxic atmosphere of Columbine. Even Sue's book provided more examples, like this father who talked to Tom and said how his son was tortured in Columbine. Nothing like that in Randy's book.
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeTue Jun 23, 2020 12:16 am

Randy about why Dylan did it.

"Eric saw the end coming: no Marines, Dylan going away to college, Dylan in Arizona.  Eric would be without his helper.  It was now or never. Dylan is at the prom.  Eric is still talking revenge, but Dylan is growing away from it.  Computers, girls, a future, and college. They were calling him away. Eric instituted the plan. On Friday night Eric came over to Dylan’s home with a duffel bag.  As innocent as this seemed, this was the deciding moment. Eric told Dylan they were going to do the plan on April 20th.  Dylan was taken aback.  These were fictional and imagined plans of revenge.  These were for fun.  Sure, he had meant them, but not for real.

...

He didn’t really want to do it.  He didn’t really want to die. Eric did.  Eric was serious.  Simply put, Eric let Dylan know that this plan was going to happen.  Eric let Dylan know that Dylan’s parents (in the home) and Dylan wouldn’t live through the night, if Dylan didn’t cooperate.  Dylan knew Eric.  Eric would do it.  Eric would kill them all.  Dylan half-heartedly acquiesced, thinking this would buy him some time.  Dylan hoped a way out would present itself.  This was only half-real for Dylan anyway.  These fantasies with Eric were akin to the video games he played so much.  Reality and fiction were blurred to some degree, with the games, and with Eric.

...

Dylan makes a deal.  Dylan stops Eric from killing the Browns, and from killing Dylan’s parents, and from any of the preliminary attacks planned before the school.  I hate the school. I want to start at the school.  They decide to plant bombs at the park in the Brown’s neighborhood, and set them off as a diversion.  It accomplishes the same thing, and Eric sees that this makes Dylan happy.  Eric needs Dylan. Dylan is stuck in Eric’s madness. Dylan saves his parents, who he loves.  Dylan saves Mrs. Brown who Eric hates, but who Dylan remembers as a very nice lady.  He knows his mom liked her.  Dylan saves his brother.  Dylan saves the Harris family.  But Dylan can’t do anymore.  Dylan goes along and gets involved.  There was no way out anyway.  He had tried to get help.  Eric was sneaky and treacherous and invincible.  Eric and Dylan hated the school.  They would get revenge.  Eric got his enabler in Dylan, and Dylan made the deal."
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeTue Jun 23, 2020 12:46 am

About previous post with except from Randy's book - it's possible that he was just describing what he thought at the time, when massacre just happened and a lot of people had no idea why sweet local boy Dylan did what he did. But Randy never said during the course of his giant book how his perception of Dylan changed. Even Sue wrote about horror of seeing The Basement Tapes and seeing real Dylan. Randy never did it.
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeTue Jun 23, 2020 3:30 am

Ligeya wrote:
About previous post with except from Randy's book - it's possible that he was just  describing what he thought at the time, when massacre just happened and a lot of people had no idea why sweet local boy Dylan did what he did. But Randy never said during the course of his giant book how his perception of Dylan changed. Even Sue wrote about horror of seeing The Basement Tapes and seeing real Dylan. Randy never did it.

I'm pretty sure the Browns saw the BTs though? They kinda forced their way into the viewings.
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeTue Jun 23, 2020 3:42 am

The Browns and Harrises lived in the same neighborhood. So I don't know why Randy wrote " They decide to plant bombs at the park in the Brown’s neighborhood, and set them off as a diversion." Except for more of the Browns desperate to be a part of this. They should feel blessed, their children weren't hurt or killed. But to be so desperate about being in the middle of everything... My mom said something before she died about how we should pray for Judy instead of being angry with her because something was very wrong for her (Randy and Brooks too) to be stuck back then when so many people, even those wounded and those whose children were murdered, had worked hard to move on, even when they couldn't, while the Browns get a sense of something for reliving that time over and over again. My mom was like that though. She was one of the few that reached out to Kathy who she'd been friends with before, after the shootings too. She was kind of an artsy new wave woman who grew up Catholic in Littleton, so she always had a different view on things.
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeTue Jun 23, 2020 8:58 am

Ligeya wrote:
About previous post with except from Randy's book - it's possible that he was just  describing what he thought at the time, when massacre just happened and a lot of people had no idea why sweet local boy Dylan did what he did. But Randy never said during the course of his giant book how his perception of Dylan changed. Even Sue wrote about horror of seeing The Basement Tapes and seeing real Dylan. Randy never did it.

He did.
"It was the end of innocence. Gone was the little Dylan we knew and loved. Gone was the shy little boy, who played so well with Brooks and Aaron. Gone was the little boy we knew. Dylan had changed. Through bullying and abuse he had changed into a cold-blooded killer, who was going to kill, and then die. Gone forever is the memory of Dylan's childhood, and Dylan's smiling face, and the hope that was reflected in it. Impossible to believe. Impossible to comprehend, but the evidence was there to see. Dylan on the tapes in his own voice, wanting to kill, and die."

He makes a lot of excuses for Dylan which shows he's still trying to make Dylan into the kid that he remembers. But he does call Dylan evil, he does say that Dylan changed and became someone they did not know or recognize. It shows a lot of the struggle he went through mentally/ emotionally trying to reconcile these two parts of Dylan. Like, in one part he calls Dylan evil but then starts thinks maybe Dylan sabotaged the cafeteria bombs to save people. And then he'll go on to say, maybe I'm just thinking this because I need to believe this, need to believe that there was some good left in him.


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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeTue Jun 23, 2020 9:11 am

milennialrebelette wrote:
They should feel blessed, their children weren't hurt or killed.
They do. He says this repeatedly throughout the book. Aaron was in the cafeteria, 2 tables away from one of the bombs and Eric told Brooks to go home. They know they could have easily lost both of their children. He also talks of his survivor's guilt, how he gets to see his boys grow up, gets to enjoy moments like hearing Aaron play the piano or have a talk with Brooks and the 13 families don't have that.

millenialrebelette wrote:
But to be so desperate about being in the middle of everything... My mom said something before she died about how we should pray for Judy instead of being angry with her because something was very wrong for her (Randy and Brooks too) to be stuck back then when so many people, even those wounded and those whose children were murdered, had worked hard to move on, even when they couldn't, while the Browns get a sense of something for reliving that time over and over again.
I think they were in the middle, though. They were afraid of Eric for a year and a half before the attack. They tried several times to get the police to listen. And then afterward, Sheriff Stone told the world that Brooks was a suspect and, according to what Sue Petrone told Randy, Stone all but put the gun in Brooks' hand when he was talking to the families. Stone told all the families and the world that the Browns were liars and everyone believed him. People were afraid of Brooks and ostracized him; even today some still think he was involved.
To me, the Browns are victims of Columbine and very much involved in everything that went on. It's kind of like what Amanda Stair said about the victims in the library; by the anniversary if you weren't one of the wounded, no one had any empathy for you and it was like your trauma doesn't matter. I feel like a lot of people don't recognize how deeply the Browns were traumatized by this whole event.

As for them being stuck in the event, I often wonder if the police had told the truth right off the bat if they would be as deeply involved as they became. If Stone hadn't pointed the finger at Brooks, if people didn't believe they were lying about going to police. If the police had said, yes, we were warned by the Browns to look into Eric and we failed to do so. If the police hadn't withheld documents and evidence from the public. Would they have been able to put this behind them more easily?

By the way, your mom sounds like she was pretty great.
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeTue Jun 23, 2020 9:21 am

hvernon wrote:
Jeez, there's some deeply personal information in this book. I wonder if Randy asked all these people if he could publish some of this stuff?

I thought the same. I don't think he has any connection to the Barnes family so I doubt he asked them if it was ok to talk about. He says he and Judy worked really closely with Brian Rohrbough in investigating what happened in the years immediately following the attack. He and Judy were invited to the funeral service for the baby which was kept very private and was invitation only because they didn't want the press catching wind of it. So, I would hope that with this close association he would have had the courtesy to ask the Rohrbough's if he could include this in his book.[/quote]
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeTue Jun 23, 2020 10:10 am

thelmar wrote:


Once Randy saw the Basement Tapes, this belief evolved.

When did Randy and Judy first see the basement tapes? Is there a journal entry about what they saw and how it impacted them? I am curious. If you can, will you show us the journal entry? Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeTue Jun 23, 2020 1:51 pm

thelmar wrote:

Randy does say that at one point when he asked Tom what they (the Brown's) could do for the Klebold's, Tom said, "Stop talking," so they (or at least Tom) were evidently pretty unhappy with how many interviews the Browns were doing.

Are you talking about this part of the book? This was at Dylan's funeral.
"Judy talked to Tom, and she told him, during some small talk, that her tongue was swollen. Tom said, half-jokingly: “Then quit talking.” We had been defending them in the press, and to everyone we talked to, telling everyone how nice Dylan was, and that we knew the parents, how they did not know what was being planned. We had been defending them to everyone. Trying to tell the truth about Dylan. We had defended them on tv and in the papers, because we knew them, and we knew Dylan very well."
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeTue Jun 23, 2020 2:22 pm

thelmar wrote:
hvernon wrote:
Jeez, there's some deeply personal information in this book. I wonder if Randy asked all these people if he could publish some of this stuff?

I thought the same. I don't think he has any connection to the Barnes family so I doubt he asked them if it was ok to talk about. He says he and Judy worked really closely with Brian Rohrbough in investigating what happened in the years immediately following the attack. He and Judy were invited to the funeral service for the baby which was kept very private and was invitation only because they didn't want the press catching wind of it. So, I would hope that with this close association he would have had the courtesy to ask the Rohrbough's if he could include this in his book.
[/quote]

You do have to wonder though if the Rohrbough's didn't want the press to get wind of it that they might not want this published in a book. Hopefully Randy did the right think and asked them about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeTue Jun 23, 2020 2:28 pm

jada887 wrote:
thelmar wrote:


Once Randy saw the Basement Tapes, this belief evolved.

When did Randy and Judy first see the basement tapes? Is there a journal entry about what they saw and how it impacted them? I am curious. If you can, will you show us the journal entry? Thanks.

A Day of Opposites
12/13/99
We knew about the "basement tapes" a week ago. Tim Roche from Time told us, in confidence, that he had seen them. We interviewed with Tim and found him to be a great reporter, smart, and interested in the truth. When he told us about the videos, were were dumbfounded, and saddened. These tapes will be awful for Tom and Sue. These tapes will bring up all of the memories before Christmas. This was bad timing.
There was a big furor in the news media. Why had Time Magazine seen them? Why had anyone seen them? They were supposed to be kept secret. What purpose did this serve?
We got a call from a source telling us that there was a media showing of the tapes at noon. They told us where, and when. We got in the car and drove over to watch the tapes. We drove to the showing in the Dakota Building.
When we arrived Judy and I followed the signs down the steps to the room, walking past all of the restrictive signs, and policemen. It was about 1/3 full with reporters from local TV stations and papers, and we took a seat in the back of the room. There were two TV monitors in the front of the room, one on each side. No cameras or recording going on at all. Everyone was ready to take notes.
A plain-clothed policeman asked us for our press ID. We said we don't have one. He said we had to leave. I told him we had as much right to be there as the press. He asked us to come out in the hall, and after a few more exchanges, we followed. Unfortunately, the cameras and reporters in the hall took notice. The detective, a Sergeant Webb, was very nice. He told us that this meeting was for media only. I asked if it was public or private, and told him that I had as much right to be in there as anyone. I asked him if he was going to arrest me if I go in the room. He said he didn't want to consider that. I asked him again. He said no. I pushed my way through the TV cameras, and the group of policemen, with Judy tugging on my sleeve to stop me. I went into the room and sat down, feeling like a rat for leaving Judy in the hall by herself, and waited for a police-escort out the door. It never came.
The videos started.
First came the school's surveillance videos from the cafeteria. Four different cameras and then a composite of the four, running in order. I saw Dave Sanders run up the stairs, on his way to being killed. I saw the children running up the stairs and down the halls, to what they hoped was safety.
Judy came into the room and sat on the floor up by the left monitor. Sergeant Webb game me her water bottle and said "Watch her. This is going to be hard to watch." I thanked him, and I meant it. He was a nice guy in the middle of a mess.
I looked for Aaron in the video. We know that Aaron, my youngest son, ran in the crowd (I couldn't see him) right in front of the camera, toward the stairs where Mr. Sanders had run. Mr Sanders was shot twice, out of the view of the cameras, after he had gone up the stairs. Aaron and the other children were lucky.
There was nothing on the tapes for a few minutes, then Eric and Dylan appear. Fires erupt in the cafeteria. They don't kill anyone in the cafeteria, and there are six kids hiding under tables. Eric has a gun belt and ammo holders around his waist. He is armed to the teeth. Dylan has the Tec-9 in his left hand, and a one-inch strap runs over his left shoulder and is attached to his belt. At 12:00 noon they walk up the stairs towards the library for the last time.
Then Kate Battan puts in another tape. This is the so-called Basement Videos. Eric and Dylan are talking about why they hate people, Dylan because his brother picked on him, and so did the kids at school. Crazy talk. Stupid teenager talk. Hours of this. Eric gives a tour of his room with the shotgun shells, and pipe bombs, and shotguns, and crickets, and timers for bombs. It is ridiculous. There are pipe bombs hidden almost everywhere. It's an armory, an arsenal. His parents are going to be in trouble over this part of the video. Where were they? These two kids have a full- dress rehearsal, trying on the ammo belts and Tec-9 with trench coat, and showing off the 9 mm rifle with the laser sight. More, and more, and more hate. More plans. Plans to kill. Plans to be famous. Eric held the camera up to his eye and held the Tec-9 in front of him. He sighted down the barrel with the camera. It looked just like the doom game they played, just like the video game he played for hours, killing people, sighting down the barrel of the rifle.
More videos. More videos.
It's over.
I lose control and say very loudly, "Why didn't you wait until after Christmas to report this? What purpose does this serve? What purpose?" It was directed at all of the reporters and I knew it was stupid. Very stupid. It wasn't their fault. It was the Sheriff's fault. And it was too late, bu the pain this was going to cause to the victims was intolerable and unnecessary. Why release this 12 days before Christmas? Why? Thanksgiving had been tough enough. Why ruin Christmas?
I got Judy and we left, well, we tried to leave. We were surrounded by cameras and reporters. Webb took us into a backroom. We waited, I thanked him for being so nice, so did Judy. Judy was visibly, shaken. She had just seen "little Dylan" talk casually about murder, and their plans to kill "at least 250" at Columbine. Their plans to kill their friends, and their enemies, and Aaron, and Brooks. Dylan.
We leave out a back door and the press sees us, and follows us. We walk to the car, I'm wishing I had kept my mouth shut, and had kept a low profile. Now it's a media mess.
We get to the car and Judy says to the press,"It was hard to watch. I loved Dylan," and we leave, and she cried with her head in her hands.
On the way home we talk quietly about the tapes; about how they will devastate Tom and Sue, about the Harrises and the arsenal in their basement, about Dylan, about how awful they were to watch, about little details.
We found out later that Tim Roche, the Time journalist, was so upset by the tapes that he had to go to a counselor. They were hard to watch, chilling, and true.
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeTue Jun 23, 2020 2:28 pm

Reznor wrote:
thelmar wrote:

Randy does say that at one point when he asked Tom what they (the Brown's) could do for the Klebold's, Tom said, "Stop talking," so they (or at least Tom) were evidently pretty unhappy with how many interviews the Browns were doing.

Are you talking about this part of the book? This was at Dylan's funeral.
"Judy talked to Tom, and she told him, during some small talk, that her tongue was swollen. Tom said, half-jokingly: “Then quit talking.” We had been defending them in the press, and to everyone we talked to, telling everyone how nice Dylan was, and that we knew the parents, how they did not know what was being planned. We had been defending them to everyone. Trying to tell the truth about Dylan. We had defended them on tv and in the papers, because we knew them, and we knew Dylan very well."

Yes, this is the part.
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeTue Jun 23, 2020 2:35 pm

Wow, I always wondered what Randy and Judy thought of the tapes. I can only imagine how hard they would be to watch, seeing someone you love acting like that after hiding it so well. I do understand what Randy Brown was trying to get at about Christmas. It would be the first Christmas for so many of these families without their loved ones. And just days before, the press was going to detail completely about how Eric and Dylan talked about and flaunted their ideas for murdering their loved ones. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] What are your thoughts on this? Do you think press should have ever been allowed to see the tapes?

There is a bit that is confusing to me. I know the victims and families were able to see the tapes. However, I always thought this happened some time right after the shooting. Media got to see the Basement Tapes before family did?
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeTue Jun 23, 2020 3:10 pm

hvernon wrote:

There is a bit that is confusing to me. I know the victims and families were able to see the tapes. However, I always thought this happened some time right after the shooting. Media got to see the Basement Tapes before family did?

The press was also able to view the surveillance tapes before the families. I remember seeing a news clip somewhere, can't remember where but it was about the sheriff's department showing both the surveillance and basement tapes to the press and it showed Judy and she was saying that the families are victims and are being victimized again. It also showed Brian Rohrbough and said that he was promised that "this would never happen" I'm guessing he was talking about the press being able to view the tapes. Supposedly, the sheriff's department didn't decide to show the tapes to the families until after showing them to the press. In response to why, I think they said they were worried about furthering the victim's families' anguish.
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeTue Jun 23, 2020 5:16 pm

If anyone has gotten to the part where he talks about Robyn- Do you get the sense that Randy has a huge bias against her over Mark and Phil?

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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeTue Jun 23, 2020 9:35 pm

hvernon wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] What are your thoughts on this? Do you think press should have ever been allowed to see the tapes?

No, I don't think the media should have been allowed to see the tapes. I don't see the point in it other than sensationalism. I think they are an important part of trying to understand the mindset of Eric and Dylan and why they did what they did. I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to see them myself. But they probably should have been reserved for the parents, families, those directly affected by the attack, and those who are trying to solve the "why" of school shooters and how to prevent them.

hvernon wrote:
There is a bit that is confusing to me. I know the victims and families were able to see the tapes. However, I always thought this happened some time right after the shooting. Media got to see the Basement Tapes before family did?

According to A Mother's Reckoning, Chapter 10, Sue's journal entry says that she and Tom saw the Basement Tapes in October 1999. I would assume that the Harris' were afforded the same opportunity at that time; whether or not they saw them, too, I don't think anyone knows for sure.

This interview shows that the families also saw the Basement Tapes on December 12 or thereabouts. Brian Rohrbough says "2 weeks before Christmas"
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeTue Jun 23, 2020 9:53 pm

thelmar wrote:
milennialrebelette wrote:
They should feel blessed, their children weren't hurt or killed.
They do. He says this repeatedly throughout the book. Aaron was in the cafeteria, 2 tables away from one of the bombs and Eric told Brooks to go home. They know they could have easily lost both of their children. He also talks of his survivor's guilt, how he gets to see his boys grow up, gets to enjoy moments like hearing Aaron play the piano or have a talk with Brooks and the 13 families don't have that.

millenialrebelette wrote:
But to be so desperate about being in the middle of everything... My mom said something before she died about how we should pray for Judy instead of being angry with her because something was very wrong for her (Randy and Brooks too) to be stuck back then when so many people, even those wounded and those whose children were murdered, had worked hard to move on, even when they couldn't, while the Browns get a sense of something for reliving that time over and over again.
I think they were in the middle, though. They were afraid of Eric for a year and a half before the attack. They tried several times to get the police to listen. And then afterward, Sheriff Stone told the world that Brooks was a suspect and, according to what Sue Petrone told Randy, Stone all but put the gun in Brooks' hand when he was talking to the families. Stone told all the families and the world that the Browns were liars and everyone believed him. People were afraid of Brooks and ostracized him; even today some still think he was involved.
To me, the Browns are victims of Columbine and very much involved in everything that went on. It's kind of like what Amanda Stair said about the victims in the library; by the anniversary if you weren't one of the wounded, no one had any empathy for you and it was like your trauma doesn't matter. I feel like a lot of people don't recognize how deeply the Browns were traumatized by this whole event.

As for them being stuck in the event, I often wonder if the police had told the truth right off the bat if they would be as deeply involved as they became. If Stone hadn't pointed the finger at Brooks, if people didn't believe they were lying about going to police. If the police had said, yes, we were warned by the Browns to look into Eric and we failed to do so. If the police hadn't withheld documents and evidence from the public. Would they have been able to put this behind them more easily?

By the way, your mom sounds like she was pretty great.

Good point, sorry if what I said came across as judging the "levels" of being affected by Columbine/whose grief was acceptable and whose wasn't. Again I have known the Brown family my whole life and for once agree with something that the rest of the Columbine community seems to believe about just how not nice and nasty they can be in real life. My brother was in the cafeteria and of course, my sister had been invited to swing by lunch with Rachel and Richard to talk to him about his parents divorcing, after she picked up her prom pictures which of course never happened. There was so much of that in the aftermath, and you're right its wrong.

It's hard for me to put into words how I feel about what the Brown family has done with Columbine vs. what the families of those killed, the families of those hurt, the families of those who had kids there, and others who were affected. It's not a contest like someone was more affected than someone else. In fact from what my sister went through and from what Amanda has shared here, I think some of the kids who weren't seen at "The Victims" struggled more. Like they were expected to act like everything was okay, or be there for other people who "suffered worse". I know that's why my sister struggled. Come August of 1999 she had to perform at a pep rally to welcome everyone back. She said she was completely wasted for it and no one ever knew.

I think what it comes down to with the Brown family is they don't seem to respect those who are supposedly hurting as much as them. Standing up for Dylan? I can get that. My mom used to always stand up for Kathy. She didn't call Time to do it behind her back but I know she didn't talk to her almost at all after the shooting, Kathy stopped talking to everyone in Littleton and that was her choice and with how chaotic things were after and how she wasn't "from" the area like the Klebolds plus how Wayne was the one who ran things in the house... I can get that.

But the Browns never made it about the community. It was always about them. Their attention seeking. They were like that before the shooting and even after with things in the neighborhood.

And thank you, my mom was really special. She grew up in 1960s and 1970s Littleton in a very conservative traditional Catholic family. Like her twin sister, my auntie, she married a military guy right out of high school and tried to do the whole house wife thing. But my auntie is still married and lives in Grant Ranch one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the area and has been the perfect housewife... my mom? Well my brother and sister were born but my mom couldn't handle it. She divorced my siblings dad which caused a lot of problems in the Church and said screw it and moved to Hawai'i and met my dad who is Native Hawai'ian. She was looked down on for marrying a "colored" man. She didn't last well with him either and went back to Littleton with me when I was a toddler. She had suffered from lupus really bad since she was a teenager/young adult. After her second marriage she was all about art and spirituality, she put it in a Catholic context because those were the tools she had been raised with but she was always clearly not in line with the Church. My sister has said what she's said about Rachel partially because she knew her so well for so long and they bonded over the less than ideal family situations they both had but also because my sister has said Rachel reminded her so much of our mom. Just a really caring, really artistic woman who did what she could despite her conservative Christian upbringing. It was really tough my senior year fitting in at Columbine, having to work, being one of the few non white people in Littleton (although being mixed I can pass both ways so to speak) and that's what re-connected me with my sister and the whole Columbine case in general. That's why I'll always defend Mr. D he went out of his way to make sure I graduated, felt like I was part of the community, was praying for my mom and everything. This is a man who was running a huge school with all this baggage that didn't need to do that. He could pay lipservice to "making Columbine inclusive" but he even stood up to his own staff in my support and outside school, he and his wife would come by and drop off food for us and all other sorts of stuff. My sister might have been varsity pom captain but my brother was a computer geek and I was at first a party kid then a youth group kid who had to grow up way too fast compared to the kids I graduated with, working FT, trying to graduate being a year behind from my other schools, organizing all my mom's medical care and then even with the help of my brother, selling my mom's house knowing she might not live to see me graduate. He was always there for my family and I will always appreciate that.

I wish she were here today because she always had such a good, loving, caring heart. She didn't judge anyone. Even when it came to Judy Brown and all the other moms in the community would be talking beef, my mom would be like, of course she says not very nice things but that's because deep inside she doesn't feel nice about herself and that's why we should go out of our way to make her feel better. As an 18 year old with my mom physically suffering so badly for Judy to still be saying things about the "wog" she went and married (my dad who is kanaka maoli) and other stuff really hurt and I know I haven't gotten over it in some respects. I think if my mom were still here she'd be still saying wonderful things about Kathy Harris and Darryl Scott and Brooks and Judy Brown, the people me and my sister don't like to this day, just because she looked at the world so different than everyone in Littleton did/does.

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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeWed Jun 24, 2020 12:14 am

Does anyone else think it's a little odd that he talks about Brooks being named a suspect by Sheriff Stone in a September 1999 entry like it had just happened when it actually happened in early May?
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeWed Jun 24, 2020 2:38 am

A TV newscast from the day the basement tapes were shown to the media:

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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeWed Jun 24, 2020 2:42 am

thelmar wrote:
The 1999 Columbine season was dedicated to Matt Kechter. When the boys won, they chanted Matt's name. The boys on the team gave the championship trophy to Matt's little brother that day. Randy wrote that he'd believe that Columbine cared about more than just sports and winning if they had allowed the Kechter's to keep the trophy. Several months later he was at the school and saw that the trophy was on display by the Math office. [I think it's possible the Kechter's may have donated it back to help the kids see something positive, but Randy thinks the school took it back].


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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeWed Jun 24, 2020 4:25 am

thelmar wrote:
Ligeya wrote:
About previous post with except from Randy's book - it's possible that he was just  describing what he thought at the time, when massacre just happened and a lot of people had no idea why sweet local boy Dylan did what he did. But Randy never said during the course of his giant book how his perception of Dylan changed. Even Sue wrote about horror of seeing The Basement Tapes and seeing real Dylan. Randy never did it.

He did.
"It was the end of innocence. Gone was the little Dylan we knew and loved. Gone was the shy little boy, who played so well with Brooks and Aaron. Gone was the little boy we knew. Dylan had changed. Through bullying and abuse he had changed into a cold-blooded killer, who was going to kill, and then die. Gone forever is the memory of Dylan's childhood, and Dylan's smiling face, and the hope that was reflected in it. Impossible to believe. Impossible to comprehend, but the evidence was there to see. Dylan on the tapes in his own voice, wanting to kill, and die."

He makes a lot of excuses for Dylan which shows he's still trying to make Dylan into the kid that he remembers. But he does call Dylan evil, he does say that Dylan changed and became someone they did not know or recognize. It shows a lot of the struggle he went through mentally/ emotionally trying to reconcile these two parts of Dylan. Like, in one part he calls Dylan evil but then starts thinks maybe Dylan sabotaged the cafeteria bombs to save people. And then he'll go on to say, maybe I'm just thinking this because I need to believe this, need to believe that there was some good left in him.

Thank you for poining it out. I guess I missed it, because I definitely feel like Randy was too forgiving of Dylan. Though I should say that he was kinder to Eric that I expected him to be, especially near the end of the book.
I really can't understand relationship between Browns and Klebolds. Maybe I am suspicious by nature, but I think Randy exaggerated their closeness to Klebolds and to Dylan in particular. The way he wrote about him - you'd think he was their adopted son, not Brown's old school buddy. I think Randy even said at one point that him and Judy loved Dylan like their own son, but I need to check my bookmarks to confirm that. He definitely called Judy and Sue soulmates, which was a huge WTF moment for me. Of course, maybe Sue was lying when she wrote in her book that she wasn't close with Judy for years, but I find it hard to believe.
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeWed Jun 24, 2020 4:36 am

Reznor wrote:
thelmar wrote:

Randy does say that at one point when he asked Tom what they (the Brown's) could do for the Klebold's, Tom said, "Stop talking," so they (or at least Tom) were evidently pretty unhappy with how many interviews the Browns were doing.

Are you talking about this part of the book? This was at Dylan's funeral.
"Judy talked to Tom, and she told him, during some small talk, that her tongue was swollen. Tom said, half-jokingly: “Then quit talking.” We had been defending them in the press, and to everyone we talked to, telling everyone how nice Dylan was, and that we knew the parents, how they did not know what was being planned. We had been defending them to everyone. Trying to tell the truth about Dylan. We had defended them on tv and in the papers, because we knew them, and we knew Dylan very well."

I think Browns were exhausting to be around, and it seems like they have a problem with knowing boundaries. Randy says he called Tom and Sue to discuss some things he investigated, or his conclusions. He told them he's sure Eric killed Dylan. But Tom and Sue didn't want to hear which was upsetting to Randy. In his opinion, they ddn't care about the truth, but for me, it seems like he didn't understand their grief and suffering.
And of course endless interviews also didn't help. Especially if Sue is telling the truth and Klebolds and Browns were not as close as Randy claims.
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeWed Jun 24, 2020 4:53 am

Chapter in the book that really was upsetting to me and changed my opinion about Randy. He's writing about Lance Kirklin.

"To be fair I should point out that Lance isn’t perfect. He is kind of spoiled by all the attention and fame. What would you expect from a 16-year-old teenager who has had Shania Twain, Aerosmith, the Broncos and Celine Dion pay him visits and sing him songs? (No, the Broncos didn’t sing.) That is too much for a 16-year-old, and it did go to his head a little. But tonight, lying in the hospital bed, groggy from the medication, you could see the real Lance, the kid with an indomitable spirit, the nice kid, the boy facing more surgeries and pain and fear, the boy with the great attitude, Mike’s son. Tonight, he wasn’t on The Today Show, or being interviewed by Dan Abrams or Barbara Walters. Tonight, he was recovering by himself in a hospital bed, with a steady stream of friends from school stopping by. Tonight, he wasn’t on the Bronco sidelines watching the game. Tonight, he is lying in bed, on morphine, with a tube coming out of his face. Tonight, the legacy of Columbine is real"

I know he tried to end it on a positive note, but I really don't understand why he thought it's necessary to say negative things about Lance. Especially considering his own family was doing interview after interview.
Lance's recent interview Ripples of Columbine is very interesting. He actually talks about media using him and his parents not protecting him enough.

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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeWed Jun 24, 2020 6:51 am

Ligeya wrote:
Chapter in the book that really was upsetting to me and changed my opinion about Randy. He's writing about Lance Kirklin.

"To be fair I should point out that Lance isn’t perfect. He is kind of spoiled by all the attention and fame. What would you expect from a 16-year-old teenager who has had Shania Twain, Aerosmith, the Broncos and Celine Dion pay him visits and sing him songs? (No, the Broncos didn’t sing.) That is too much for a 16-year-old, and it did go to his head a little. But tonight, lying in the hospital bed, groggy from the medication, you could see the real Lance, the kid with an indomitable spirit, the nice kid, the boy facing more surgeries and pain and fear, the boy with the great attitude, Mike’s son. Tonight, he wasn’t on The Today Show, or being interviewed by Dan Abrams or Barbara Walters. Tonight, he was recovering by himself in a hospital bed, with a steady stream of friends from school stopping by. Tonight, he wasn’t on the Bronco sidelines watching the game. Tonight, he is lying in bed, on morphine, with a tube coming out of his face. Tonight, the legacy of Columbine is real"

I know he tried to end it on a positive note, but I really don't understand why he thought it's necessary to say negative things about Lance. Especially considering his own family was doing interview after interview.
Lance's recent interview Ripples of Columbine is very interesting. He actually talks about media using him and his parents not protecting him enough.


The way the Browns whored themselves to the media (especially given their kid wasn't even injured or killed) gives Randy zero room to talk down to anyone about being "spoiled" by the media.

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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeWed Jun 24, 2020 11:18 am

thelmar wrote:

A Day of Opposites
12/13/99

Thanks so much for doing this. It seems, from that journal entry that Mr. Brown was still not willing to accept that Dylan was not the innocent boy he once knew. But, I think this denial might have prevented him from seeing the truth when it was right in front of him, or rather in front of his son, Brooks. Was this a coping mechanism? Or was this an attempt to deny Dylan's responsibility?
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeWed Jun 24, 2020 1:18 pm

I think a big reason why the Browns did so many interviews is because they wanted people to know that the Sheriff's department wasn't really doing their job and wanted people to know that Eric had been reported because the Sheriff's office sure wasn't going to talk about it. Plus they also wanted to defend Brooks because he was named a suspect early on, and they also felt they should defend the Klebolds because they had been friends and thought they were good people. I'm sure some of it was attention seeking but I think most of it, at least in the beginning was because they wanted people to know the truth.
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PostSubject: Re: Review of Randy Brown's book    Review of Randy Brown's book  Icon_minitimeWed Jun 24, 2020 6:32 pm

He calls Sue's book full of lies!

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