Review of Randy Brown's book

Screamingophelia wrote:

He calls Sue's book full of lies!

That is interesting! Is there anything he contested specifically in his book, or does he just contest the whole book?

I have a few problems with the chapter in which breaks down what he thinks made Eric into who he became.

He claims Luvox was a major factor in Eric’s rampage. First, this hasn't been proven. This is one of the many instances where he states something as fact without any evidence to back it up, which bothers me. He cites that studies show 4% of kids taking Luvox experience paradoxical reactions like worsening depression, anger, suicidality. We don't know that Eric was in that 4%.

He also says “we know that Eric was going on and off Luvox” and I was thinking FINALLY someone was going to show me how this was proven. This has bugged me for years! But… nothing. He stated it as fact, but didn't provide any evidence to support this.

Randy also says he believes that Dylan was “taking the Luvox to increase his anger.”
There is no absolutely no proof of this and, as mentioned, if his cited statistic is correct and this happens in only 4% of patients, what would be the odds that BOTH Eric and Dylan would be affected this way by Luvox when the majority of patients are not?

Finally, and worst of all, he warns parents not to let their kids take SSRIs and says, “They must learn to deal with depression and mood swings on their own, through diet and exercise and possible holistic treatment through herbs.”
Just… no. While I agree that not every moody teen needs meds, this is really an oversimplication of mental illness and potentially dangerous advice, to boot.

thelmar wrote:

I have a few problems with the chapter in which breaks down what he thinks made Eric into who he became.

He claims Luvox was a major factor in Eric’s rampage. First, this hasn't been proven. This is one of the many instances where he states something as fact without any evidence to back it up, which bothers me. He cites that studies show 4% of kids taking Luvox experience paradoxical reactions like worsening depression, anger, suicidality. We don't know that Eric was in that 4%.

He also says “we know that Eric was going on and off Luvox” and I was thinking FINALLY someone was going to show me how this was proven. This has bugged me for years! But… nothing. He stated it as fact, but didn't provide any evidence to support this.

Randy also says he believes that Dylan was “taking the Luvox to increase his anger.”
There is no absolutely no proof of this and, as mentioned, if his cited statistic is correct and this happens in only 4% of patients, what would be the odds that BOTH Eric and Dylan would be affected this way by Luvox when the majority of patients are not?

Finally, and worst of all, he warns parents not to let their kids take SSRIs and says, “They must learn to deal with depression and mood swings on their own, through diet and exercise and possible holistic treatment through herbs.”
Just… no. While I agree that not every moody teen needs meds, this is really an oversimplication of mental illness and potentially dangerous advice, to boot.

If Dylan was taking Luvox to increase his anger, then don't you think he would have taken it on the day of the shooting and it would show up in the autopsy report? Weird reach with that theory. I am with you. That last line is just, ugh no. SSRIs saved me when I was a teenager. I'm not about to go on a murderous rampage any time soon. While I am not currently taking an SSRI, I still take medicine for anxiety to this day. I've never liked the stance that depression/anxiety medications are bad.

hvernon wrote:

thelmar wrote:

I have a few problems with the chapter in which breaks down what he thinks made Eric into who he became.

He claims Luvox was a major factor in Eric’s rampage. First, this hasn't been proven. This is one of the many instances where he states something as fact without any evidence to back it up, which bothers me. He cites that studies show 4% of kids taking Luvox experience paradoxical reactions like worsening depression, anger, suicidality. We don't know that Eric was in that 4%.

He also says “we know that Eric was going on and off Luvox” and I was thinking FINALLY someone was going to show me how this was proven. This has bugged me for years! But… nothing. He stated it as fact, but didn't provide any evidence to support this.

Randy also says he believes that Dylan was “taking the Luvox to increase his anger.”
There is no absolutely no proof of this and, as mentioned, if his cited statistic is correct and this happens in only 4% of patients, what would be the odds that BOTH Eric and Dylan would be affected this way by Luvox when the majority of patients are not?

Finally, and worst of all, he warns parents not to let their kids take SSRIs and says, “They must learn to deal with depression and mood swings on their own, through diet and exercise and possible holistic treatment through herbs.”
Just… no. While I agree that not every moody teen needs meds, this is really an oversimplication of mental illness and potentially dangerous advice, to boot.

If Dylan was taking Luvox to increase his anger, then don't you think he would have taken it on the day of the shooting and it would show up in the autopsy report? Weird reach with that theory. I am with you. That last line is just, ugh no. SSRIs saved me when I was a teenager. I'm not about to go on a murderous rampage any time soon. While I am not currently taking an SSRI, I still take medicine for anxiety to this day. I've never liked the stance that depression/anxiety medications are bad.

This response isn't to you, just about the point with Dylan/Eric and the meds.

I want to start off saying I'm not a doctor or psychiatrist but I am a LCSW (lincsed clinical social worker) with a post grad certificate in High Risk Youth Counseling. I can in no way diagnose either boy. 1) I never met them (actually I'm sure I met Eric a few times but I was a very young child) 2) I didn't have the chance to work with them before they died 3) Especially back then, it's almost impossible to diagnose teenagers with mood or even more impossible, personality disorders. A lot of the criteria for psychopathy can be met by all teenagers exhibiting normal hormonal, developing brain caused, behavior.

That said, the SSRI thing has always gotten me.

SSRIs have to build up in your system to have an effect, it's not like a pain pill you can pop and have some sort of immediate response. Also, the contraindication on SSRI and teens comes from the same area as the contraindication of SSRIs for adults with Bipolar 1. In a small subset of the population as opposed to increasing and regulating the serotonin levels, which is what a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor does, it kicks off manic episodes. This is a very uncommon side effect, most of the population does not react this way to SSRIs. So you'd have to assume 1) Dylan took the meds regularly, at least a month to have any sort of full effect, or at least a week to feel any sort of difference and 2) that Dylan had the uncommon adverse affect that from what I understand Eric had.

If he was looking for meds to increase his anger, uppers would be the easiest to obtain and have the greatest effect, The 90s was the rise of the ADD medication era, so getting some Adderall would be easy. I know even when I was at Columbine some kids would sell their meds. An there's notd even if he did have this affect, it's hard to pinpoint with meds like that, there's no take pill --> get high 30 min later, consistently like with Oxy or Ritalin. It's all over the chart. The most common "abuse" of antidepressants is to stop taking them or only take them sporadically. The second is people sometimes in a misguided suicide attempt will take whatever meds they have access too including SSRIs. But those are honestly the only two deliberate misuses of them I'm familiar with from my work.

SSRis work for so many people and even young adults. Not all, including myself (I'm BP1 with severe mania and have to avoid SSRIs like the plauge and take an atypical antipsychotic , it's been a lot of work but saved my life) I've worked with clients that have gotten their lives back because of SSRIs, and again I work predominately with teenage girls and young women of color, but really high risk youth in general. It's just important to have a good open communication with your psychiatrist, NPP, or whomever is prescribing along with regular counseling to catch any adverse reactions as well as supplement therapy. The SSRI boogyman after Columbine was absurd. Randy knows nothing about psychiatry, pharmacology or even counseling to be honest.

HanShotFirst wrote:

Ligeya wrote:

Chapter in the book that really was upsetting to me and changed my opinion about Randy. He's writing about Lance Kirklin.

"To be fair I should point out that Lance isn’t perfect. He is kind of spoiled by all the attention and fame. What would you expect from a 16-year-old teenager who has had Shania Twain, Aerosmith, the Broncos and Celine Dion pay him visits and sing him songs? (No, the Broncos didn’t sing.) That is too much for a 16-year-old, and it did go to his head a little. But tonight, lying in the hospital bed, groggy from the medication, you could see the real Lance, the kid with an indomitable spirit, the nice kid, the boy facing more surgeries and pain and fear, the boy with the great attitude, Mike’s son. Tonight, he wasn’t on The Today Show, or being interviewed by Dan Abrams or Barbara Walters. Tonight, he was recovering by himself in a hospital bed, with a steady stream of friends from school stopping by. Tonight, he wasn’t on the Bronco sidelines watching the game. Tonight, he is lying in bed, on morphine, with a tube coming out of his face. Tonight, the legacy of Columbine is real"

I know he tried to end it on a positive note, but I really don't understand why he thought it's necessary to say negative things about Lance. Especially considering his own family was doing interview after interview.
Lance's recent interview Ripples of Columbine is very interesting. He actually talks about media using him and his parents not protecting him enough.

The way the Browns whored themselves to the media (especially given their kid wasn't even injured or killed) gives Randy zero room to talk down to anyone about being "spoiled" by the media.

Exactly this! Anyway my best friend in elementary school is Lance's cousin. He would sometimes pick us upf or school or at the pool after he had recovered. He's always been a nice kid, even when dealing with his baby cousin and her friends. His dad, I believe it was, was all about the media however. Ironically the Brown family was much worse though. Lance's mom and aunt weren't as affected by everything and worked hard to keep him grounded. He's a really good guy. Family is a little eh, but then again mine is too and the Browns are much worse in this respect.

Deleted (wasn't sure if against forum rules)

thelmar wrote:

While I agree that not every moody teen needs meds, this is really an oversimplication of mental illness and potentially dangerous advice, to boot.

Yup. I think there's little evidence to support dieting and mental illness. There's evidence to support the conclusion that mental illnesses are hereditary. I will post something about that soon.

Screamingophelia wrote:

He calls Sue's book full of lies!

Much of Sue's book has to do with what Dylan was like at home, and what he was experiencing at the time, which I doubt Mr. Brown had much knowledge of, given that Brooks and Dylan were not close friends at the time. Also, I think much of his animosity for her book is her reliance on the FBI investigators and other psychologists, people who he claims are "batting a fat zero."

downwardspiral wrote:

Deleted (wasn't sure if against forum rules)

I read your comment before you deleted it. I can't remember everything you said just that you were asking about Kathy and the community response. I'm about to run out the door now, but later when I get home I have no problem sharing as much as I can remember! Not too personal or offensive at all.

milennialrebelette wrote:

downwardspiral wrote:

Deleted (wasn't sure if against forum rules)

I read your comment before you deleted it. I can't remember everything you said just that you were asking about Kathy and the community response. I'm about to run out the door now, but later when I get home I have no problem sharing as much as I can remember! Not too personal or offensive at all.

I'm not sure if it's allowed because it says in the rules:

"Posting any private information about the victims of Columbine or any other people connected to Columbine is strictly forbidden.

This includes but is not limited to: photos, links to social media accounts, email addresses, home addresses, phone numbers, place of employment, names of other family members such as spouses and children.

This also applies to the families, friends, and acquaintances of Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris."

Because it says "includes but is not limited to," I'm not sure if information about the reactions of the community and families counts under this rule, or if it refers more to personally identifying information as is specified. I just don't want us to get in trouble!

milennialrebelette wrote:

hvernon wrote:

thelmar wrote:

I have a few problems with the chapter in which breaks down what he thinks made Eric into who he became.

He claims Luvox was a major factor in Eric’s rampage. First, this hasn't been proven. This is one of the many instances where he states something as fact without any evidence to back it up, which bothers me. He cites that studies show 4% of kids taking Luvox experience paradoxical reactions like worsening depression, anger, suicidality. We don't know that Eric was in that 4%.

He also says “we know that Eric was going on and off Luvox” and I was thinking FINALLY someone was going to show me how this was proven. This has bugged me for years! But… nothing. He stated it as fact, but didn't provide any evidence to support this.

Randy also says he believes that Dylan was “taking the Luvox to increase his anger.”
There is no absolutely no proof of this and, as mentioned, if his cited statistic is correct and this happens in only 4% of patients, what would be the odds that BOTH Eric and Dylan would be affected this way by Luvox when the majority of patients are not?

Finally, and worst of all, he warns parents not to let their kids take SSRIs and says, “They must learn to deal with depression and mood swings on their own, through diet and exercise and possible holistic treatment through herbs.”
Just… no. While I agree that not every moody teen needs meds, this is really an oversimplication of mental illness and potentially dangerous advice, to boot.

If Dylan was taking Luvox to increase his anger, then don't you think he would have taken it on the day of the shooting and it would show up in the autopsy report? Weird reach with that theory. I am with you. That last line is just, ugh no. SSRIs saved me when I was a teenager. I'm not about to go on a murderous rampage any time soon. While I am not currently taking an SSRI, I still take medicine for anxiety to this day. I've never liked the stance that depression/anxiety medications are bad.

This response isn't to you, just about the point with Dylan/Eric and the meds.

I want to start off saying I'm not a doctor or psychiatrist but I am a LCSW (lincsed clinical social worker) with a post grad certificate in High Risk Youth Counseling. I can in no way diagnose either boy. 1) I never met them (actually I'm sure I met Eric a few times but I was a very young child) 2) I didn't have the chance to work with them before they died 3) Especially back then, it's almost impossible to diagnose teenagers with mood or even more impossible, personality disorders. A lot of the criteria for psychopathy can be met by all teenagers exhibiting normal hormonal, developing brain caused, behavior.

That said, the SSRI thing has always gotten me.

SSRIs have to build up in your system to have an effect, it's not like a pain pill you can pop and have some sort of immediate response. Also, the contraindication on SSRI and teens comes from the same area as the contraindication of SSRIs for adults with Bipolar 1. In a small subset of the population as opposed to increasing and regulating the serotonin levels, which is what a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor does, it kicks off manic episodes. This is a very uncommon side effect, most of the population does not react this way to SSRIs. So you'd have to assume 1) Dylan took the meds regularly, at least a month to have any sort of full effect, or at least a week to feel any sort of difference and 2) that Dylan had the uncommon adverse affect that from what I understand Eric had.

If he was looking for meds to increase his anger, uppers would be the easiest to obtain and have the greatest effect, The 90s was the rise of the ADD medication era, so getting some Adderall would be easy. I know even when I was at Columbine some kids would sell their meds. An there's notd even if he did have this affect, it's hard to pinpoint with meds like that, there's no take pill --> get high 30 min later, consistently like with Oxy or Ritalin. It's all over the chart. The most common "abuse" of antidepressants is to stop taking them or only take them sporadically. The second is people sometimes in a misguided suicide attempt will take whatever meds they have access too including SSRIs. But those are honestly the only two deliberate misuses of them I'm familiar with from my work.

SSRis work for so many people and even young adults. Not all, including myself (I'm BP1 with severe mania and have to avoid SSRIs like the plauge and take an atypical antipsychotic , it's been a lot of work but saved my life) I've worked with clients that have gotten their lives back because of SSRIs, and again I work predominately with teenage girls and young women of color, but really high risk youth in general.  It's just important to have a good open communication with your psychiatrist, NPP, or whomever is prescribing along with regular counseling to catch any adverse reactions as well as supplement therapy. The SSRI boogyman after Columbine was absurd. Randy knows nothing about psychiatry, pharmacology or even counseling to be honest.

Fantastic response and input! Much of my knowledge of mental health in medications is admittedly limited to my own experiences and a college level psychology class. You definitely said what I was trying to get at with your last paragraph, just much better than I ever could. I don't understand the medication bogeyman that surrounds Columbine (and many other shootings, for that matter) when there is so much evidence to the contrary. I think it is sad that Randy is trying to push this in his book. There's a chance some impressionable, young teenager interested in Columbine will pick this up. It benefits no one to publish anything like this. It just harms.

Take a few minutes. Relax. Put on a movie. Put on “Gone with the Wind” with Clark Gable. It is a great movie. It will help you to relax. Watch the entire movie. I know, it is a really long movie. There is a point to this, so you have to watch the entire movie. Okay. Did you watch the entire movie? Finished. Good. That is how long it took the SWAT team to get to Mr. Sanders. He was in a room, identified by a red shirt, with a sign in the window saying “Help, 1 bleeding to death,” and people in the room were on the school phone, and their cell phones, to the police. They were told to stay there. Help was on the way. Help was on the way. It was, right after “Gone with the Wind.” And that is why Angela’s father died. Now tell me that the SWAT teams did their job. If you want more proof, I’ll be glad to rent you the movie. Do you have the time? Mr. Sanders didn’t.

We had a cheap dinner with Brian and Lisa Rohrbough last night at Perkins. They are very nice, and Brian is incredibly organized. He has tapes of hundreds of conversations and interviews, and he has been investigating his son’s death and circumstances. This is a very smart man, trying to figure out a very complicated mess. The Sheriff’s Department has lied to him so many times that he no longer trusts them, so he is investigating on his own. When we meet, all we do is talk about Columbine. We tell him anything we find out, and he shares the interesting stuff with us. We have shared all of the Freedom of Information requests and results, copied him thousands of pages of police reports and files, and shared lots of other information. He told us last night, in confidence, that the Sheriff’s Department had tried to get a search warrant for the Harris home after our complaint, but that someone higher up stopped it. He agrees with us, that Harris knows somebody in the Sheriff’s Department, and that is why they didn’t act on our complaint in March, 1998. Brian and Lisa asked us to talk to the Klebolds. They want Sue to meet with the families, just to hear her say she is sorry. They are worried, and we are too, that people will start to hate Tom and Sue if they don’t come out and apologize, and soon. This morning I called Sue, and told her that Brian wants her to speak to the families. Judy got on the phone, and she and Sue talked for about half an hour. Sue cried. Judy cried. Sue had a bad week. She heard about the Richard Castaldo interview on “Dateline” and she was heartbroken. She cried for two straight hours at work, and the people at work had to intervene. This is more guilt and pain than one person can handle. Sue had been thinking that she should come out and talk to the families and the press for a week, so this call may actually help her do that. She is going to think about it. We left Brian a message. Time will tell. It is a great opportunity. It is a chance for Tom and Sue to show they are human, and that they care. Her attorney said no.

Argh Brian Rourbough. I feel awful his son died, and especially the way he did, then was left out in the cold outside, face first on the pavement, just like Rachel's body up the hill in the mud, overnight before they were brought inside. I can't imagine the grief of losing your child like that.

However after the shooting he definitely pulled the Columbine card to advance his political agenda which I think in someways is worse than what Rachel's dad is doing with her fake memory he's pushed. Brian became president for the right wing Colorado Right to Life Coilition. Anytime someone that wasn't a militant prolifer like him would try to debate or discuss his political statements, he'd respond with "My son died in Columbine, how dare you attack me!" It was ridiculous.

Then for the Memorial he demanded to be allowed to put on his son's plaque that the shooting happened because women are allowed to murder their babies in their womb, or something close to that. I know the Mauser family, who is probably the most liberal of all the parents who lost children, was really upset about the plaque. They said the Memorial was to honor the lives of their children who were lost, not to make cheap political points. Brian was a huge asshole for lack of a nicer description about it and went off on the Mausers aggressively for the work they've done with gun control (that they didn't put on their son's plaque because they understood it's not the right freaking time or place to mention that). The group in charge of designing the Memorial backed down and allowed Brian to have that put on Danny's plaque.

That was the last straw for the Mausers. They already left the Catholic Church (I know them because they went to the same church as us and my brother was in Danny's confirmation group and my sister was one of the LifeTeen youth group leaders there with Val Schnurr) because the priests kept telling them they shouldn't be sad because their son is up in heaven and God does everything for a reason. And now they'd been passive aggressively and not directly, attacked for not being conservative Christians who think their son was murdered because God is taken out of schools and the world is becoming evil with abortion, gay rights, etc. Not all the families said this verbatim but it was definitely the general feeling among most of the parents of victims. The only people that supported the Mausers and were on the same page ideologically, were Connie and Angela Saunders, Dave Saunder's daughters. But anyway the Mausers no longer really associate with the other families because of all this.

But after the shooting for years there was a ton of nastiness from some of the victims parents, accusations and blaming others, lawsuits galore... it really only added to the hurt in the community. Like a lot of the parents were upset that when the school opened that following August, it was like a pep rally and everyone was trying to be happy and excited. They thought that was inappropriate and their dead children should have been the focus and it should have been solemn. They didn't understand that the students were victims too and that was a way to help ease them back into school on a good note. All spring and summer after the shooting was about the victims who died, funerals, memorial services, so much crying and hurt and anger. But the following school year needed to be a start for the surviving students to start their lives back. Nothing wrong with that.

After the depositions I remember, I think it was Lauren's mom, who said she would like them to be released, but nothing gave the families any answers. 

The thing is, and this is just my opinion, I don't think there is anything Sue or Eric's parents could say to the parents of those who died to make them feel better or make it okay that their children died.  I don't know if the fact that Dylan was depressed or Eric had OCD will suddenly make them say "OH! OK, that makes sense, all good"

The Brown's shouldn't have kept pushing Tom and Sue to talk to the media and parents, they HAD to listen to their attorneys. They had to mourn and deal with it in their own way and the Brown's needed to butt out of that, IMHO.

dj_edog wrote:

We had a cheap dinner with Brian and Lisa Rohrbough last night at Perkins. They are very nice, and Brian is incredibly organized. He has tapes of hundreds of conversations and interviews, and he has been investigating his son’s death and circumstances. This is a very smart man, trying to figure out a very complicated mess. The Sheriff’s Department has lied to him so many times that he no longer trusts them, so he is investigating on his own. When we meet, all we do is talk about Columbine. We tell him anything we find out, and he shares the interesting stuff with us. We have shared all of the Freedom of Information requests and results, copied him thousands of pages of police reports and files, and shared lots of other information. He told us last night, in confidence, that the Sheriff’s Department had tried to get a search warrant for the Harris home after our complaint, but that someone higher up stopped it. He agrees with us, that Harris knows somebody in the Sheriff’s Department, and that is why they didn’t act on our complaint in March, 1998. Brian and Lisa asked us to talk to the Klebolds. They want Sue to meet with the families, just to hear her say she is sorry. They are worried, and we are too, that people will start to hate Tom and Sue if they don’t come out and apologize, and soon. This morning I called Sue, and told her that Brian wants her to speak to the families. Judy got on the phone, and she and Sue talked for about half an hour. Sue cried. Judy cried. Sue had a bad week. She heard about the Richard Castaldo interview on “Dateline” and she was heartbroken. She cried for two straight hours at work, and the people at work had to intervene. This is more guilt and pain than one person can handle. Sue had been thinking that she should come out and talk to the families and the press for a week, so this call may actually help her do that. She is going to think about it. We left Brian a message. Time will tell. It is a great opportunity. It is a chance for Tom and Sue to show they are human, and that they care. Her attorney said no.

Are you Randy Brown?

jada887 wrote:

dj_edog wrote:

We had a cheap dinner with Brian and Lisa Rohrbough last night at Perkins. They are very nice, and Brian is incredibly organized. He has tapes of hundreds of conversations and interviews, and he has been investigating his son’s death and circumstances. This is a very smart man, trying to figure out a very complicated mess. The Sheriff’s Department has lied to him so many times that he no longer trusts them, so he is investigating on his own. When we meet, all we do is talk about Columbine. We tell him anything we find out, and he shares the interesting stuff with us. We have shared all of the Freedom of Information requests and results, copied him thousands of pages of police reports and files, and shared lots of other information. He told us last night, in confidence, that the Sheriff’s Department had tried to get a search warrant for the Harris home after our complaint, but that someone higher up stopped it. He agrees with us, that Harris knows somebody in the Sheriff’s Department, and that is why they didn’t act on our complaint in March, 1998. Brian and Lisa asked us to talk to the Klebolds. They want Sue to meet with the families, just to hear her say she is sorry. They are worried, and we are too, that people will start to hate Tom and Sue if they don’t come out and apologize, and soon. This morning I called Sue, and told her that Brian wants her to speak to the families. Judy got on the phone, and she and Sue talked for about half an hour. Sue cried. Judy cried. Sue had a bad week. She heard about the Richard Castaldo interview on “Dateline” and she was heartbroken. She cried for two straight hours at work, and the people at work had to intervene. This is more guilt and pain than one person can handle. Sue had been thinking that she should come out and talk to the families and the press for a week, so this call may actually help her do that. She is going to think about it. We left Brian a message. Time will tell. It is a great opportunity. It is a chance for Tom and Sue to show they are human, and that they care. Her attorney said no.

Are you Randy Brown?

I think they may have copied and pasted this section from the Kindle version or they may have typed it out!

"I am an adult, and if I could, I would blow that damn school off the map. I would burn it down for the evil that it is, the evil that it represents." Randy Brown

Screamingophelia wrote:

After the depositions I remember, I think it was Lauren's mom, who said she would like them to be released, but nothing gave the families any answers. 

The thing is, and this is just my opinion, I don't think there is anything Sue or Eric's parents could say to the parents of those who died to make them feel better or make it okay that their children died.  I don't know if the fact that Dylan was depressed or Eric had OCD will suddenly make them say "OH! OK, that makes sense, all good"

The Brown's shouldn't have kept pushing Tom and Sue to talk to the media and parents, they HAD to listen to their attorneys. They had to mourn and deal with it in their own way and the Brown's needed to butt out of that, IMHO.

I agree. I want to see the depositions, just for myself from a research standpoint. I don't think the depositions will give the families any more closure than what they've already gotten. I don't think anything will.

Some random things from the book-

Randy claims that Lee Andres, Sr and Jr. (the father and son music teachers at Columbine) were abusive to the students. He claims that Aaron was in the musical Guys and Dolls at Columbine in 2001, and it was great. But that the parents didn't know what went on behind the scenes:

"They don't know that the Andres' (music teachers) are mean and abusive and yell at the kids. They don't see this teacher yelling and losing his temper. They don't know that he has yelled at them so much, that some kids quit, and the rest have learned to ignore him, or be afraid of him. They don't hear Mr. Andres, Sr. tell them that 'he will split their head open like a watermelon' if they make a stage call in advance of Mr. Andres." wrote:

He also says that once Aaron played a Chopin piece on the piano in the talent show and about halfway
through the piece one of the pedals began to squeak. After it had squeaked several times, Aaron turned to the audience, while continuing to play, smiled and shrugged his shoulders, like "What can you do?" and just kept going. After his piece was over, he received a standing ovation and Randy thinks it was because instead of quitting, he took the pedal squeak in stride and the audience appreciated that. But Mr. Andres (he doesn't specify Jr or Sr but I think it's Sr because he says he was the choir director) was angry at Aaron for making light of the situation and for looking at the audience; he criticized Aaron for it.

Randy claimed Andres, Sr. yelled, criticized, and made racial remarks when working with students.

He has gone out of his way to belittle my son in totally unnecessary ways. wrote:

thelmar wrote:

Some random things from the book-

Randy claims that Lee Andres, Sr and Jr. (the father and son music teachers at Columbine) were abusive to the students. He claims that Aaron was in the musical Guys and Dolls at Columbine in 2001, and it was great. But that the parents didn't know what went on behind the scenes:


He also says that once Aaron played a Chopin piece on the piano in the talent show and about halfway
through the piece one of the pedals began to squeak. After it had squeaked several times, Aaron turned to the audience, while continuing to play, smiled and shrugged his shoulders, like "What can you do?" and just kept going. After his piece was over, he received a standing ovation and Randy thinks it was because instead of quitting, he took the pedal squeak in stride and the audience appreciated that. But Mr. Andres (he doesn't specify Jr or Sr but I think it's Sr because he says he was the choir director) was angry at Aaron for making light of the situation and for looking at the audience; he criticized Aaron for it.

Randy claimed Andres, Sr. yelled, criticized, and made racial remarks when working with students.

If that is true, that is horrible. There are teachers like that for sure

Also, why does Lee Andres sound so familiar? I feel like he was interviewed a lot or spoke at Rachel's funeral... I cannot place him. I know he was a teacher during the shooting of course.

Randy claims that the court order that directed Jeffco to release the documents they had on the case specifically prohibited them redacting anything in the documents but that Jeffco did it anyway and never got in trouble for it.

He provides some notes he took from the Governor's Commission meetings. I found some of it hard to decipher as it is just a few words or short sentences that he was trying to jot down to keep up.
He does mention that it was brought up, allegedly through his prodding, that the biggest flaw with the Diversion Program was that there was no communication between the police and Diversion. This is why even though Eric was on Diversion he didn't get in more trouble for the threats against Brooks and the web pages detailing the pipe bombs that the Browns brought to police in March 1998.
And that, even though this is a huge flaw in the program, as of March 2001, 2 yrs after Columbine, that still hadn't been rectified.

[Edited: remembered what I forgot. Apparently, if the Sheriff's department and the Diversion Program had talked to each other about the web pages the Brown's handed over, the police wouldn't have needed a search warrant to search the Harris home. According to Randy, because Eric was on "probation" as a result of the van arrest, the police would not need to obtain a search warrant if they had probable cause to believe he might be involved in another crime.]

Screamingophelia wrote:

Also, why does Lee Andres sound so familiar? I feel like he was interviewed a lot or spoke at Rachel's funeral... I cannot place him. I know he was a teacher during the shooting of course.

Both helped herd students into the auditorium and lock the doors and with the help of custodian Jay Gallentine were able to get them safely out of the school. I think it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 50- 70 kids they helped escape.
It was Andres, Sr who was teaching choir that day. Some of the class followed him to the auditorium, the rest locked themselves in the choir room office.

Randy relayed the following of a discussion he had with Brooks

In second and third grade Dylan and Brooks were great friends, but there were problems. Here is what Brooks remembered: When Brooks would go over to Dylan's house, Dylan and his brother would refust to share the video games. They would play, and Aaron and Brooks would have to watch. Dylan was never taught how to get along with his brother. They never had to share toys. When Brooks and Dylan would play wall-ball (kind of like kid's handball), Dylan would get angry and push Brooks or Nick when he was tagged. Brooks considered it a violent reaction. When Brooks and Nick would play tether-ball, Dylan would have an overtly violent response if he lost. Brooks once put his hand on Dylan's shoulders from behind, and Dylan overreacted and stood up and knocked Brooks down. They were friends after that, but Brooks was more careful. Dylan would lose at a video game at our house, and would throw the controller on the ground or at the TV. he broke a special controller that Brooks had received as a present, on Brooks' birthday. wrote:

thelmar wrote:

Randy relayed the following of a discussion he had with Brooks

Sue's book talks about Dylan not being able to share toys and how his anger would make him upset enough to have to go the car to calm down.

I actually can believe Randy and Brooks in this instance.

Screamingophelia wrote:

thelmar wrote:

Randy relayed the following of a discussion he had with Brooks

Sue's book talks about Dylan not being able to share toys and how his anger would make him upset enough to have to go the car to calm down.

I actually can believe Randy and Brooks in this instance.

I can remember Sue talking about this too. She did not hide Dylan's anger issues. I remember her talking about how Dylan had pushed her and said something along the lines of not being able to control his anger. Which makes me all the more curious why Randy says Sue's book is full of lies. It's not like she tried to say that Dylan was never angry and got along with everyone. She was pretty open about this.

thelmar wrote:

Some random things from the book-

Randy claims that Lee Andres, Sr and Jr. (the father and son music teachers at Columbine) were abusive to the students. He claims that Aaron was in the musical Guys and Dolls at Columbine in 2001, and it was great. But that the parents didn't know what went on behind the scenes:


He also says that once Aaron played a Chopin piece on the piano in the talent show and about halfway
through the piece one of the pedals began to squeak. After it had squeaked several times, Aaron turned to the audience, while continuing to play, smiled and shrugged his shoulders, like "What can you do?" and just kept going. After his piece was over, he received a standing ovation and Randy thinks it was because instead of quitting, he took the pedal squeak in stride and the audience appreciated that. But Mr. Andres (he doesn't specify Jr or Sr but I think it's Sr because he says he was the choir director) was angry at Aaron for making light of the situation and for looking at the audience; he criticized Aaron for it.

Randy claimed Andres, Sr. yelled, criticized, and made racial remarks when working with students.

This is unrelated, but I can see this being true. The high school band director at my old school got fired when I was in middle school. He was very abusive, yelling at kids and cussing them out. The school fired him when he threw a chair at a student.

EDIT- Sorry this post was an error I accidentally hit response to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] s last post and unformatted it so it looked like it was my comment without a response of my own. It was probably a mistake when I tried to respond or was scrolling through ilon my phone.

What I was trying to say is I didnt do music so I didn't know Mr. Anders well but he was always friendly and helpful and nice. All my choir geek friends ADORED him!

I'm to the point in the book where Randy has admitted Dylan was evil and a failure/ coward like Eric. We'll see how long this belief lasts.
Prior to this however, he was still of the mind that the plan was Eric's idea and Eric heavily influenced Dylan into it. Here are a few examples:

Think of the first day when Eric asked Dylan if he’d like to get even for real, if he’d actually like to blow up the school. wrote:

In January 2001, he starts to believe Dylan was evil. He claims that in January 1999 Dylan told Brooks to give Eric another chance, that he could trust him. Randy interprets this as setting Brooks up to die. But then he changes his mind and says the two enjoyed playing God saying who would live or die. Randy, at this time, believes Dylan made Eric put the diversion bomb away from houses so that no one would be hurt and that Dylan sabotaged the cafeteria bombs so that no one would be hurt. And then he admits that maybe he has to believe this because it is easier to accept this version of Dylan.

When he writes what created Dylan he says Dylan was a shy boy with no self esteem, a blank slate

waiting for Eric’s message and energy and direction wrote:

and that Dylan

needed this input, this friend, to establish his identity wrote:

thelmar wrote:

He claims that in January 1999 Dylan told Brooks to give Eric another chance, that he could trust him. Randy interprets this as setting Brooks up to die.

Yes, that makes total sense considering they supposedly told Brooks to leave before the massacre (BTW the only reason why I think it's possible Brooks' claim of being told to leave might have happened, is because in Natural Born Killers, they always leave one witness behind to tell the story. But I still kind of doubt it did happen.)

Quote :

Randy, at this time, believes Dylan made Eric put the diversion bomb away from houses so that no one would be hurt and that Dylan sabotaged the cafeteria bombs so that no one would be hurt.

Ok that's just ridiculous. He thinks Eric would have listened to "let's put the bomb away from houses" when they were planning to blow up the school? And he thinks Dylan was concerned about the cafeteria bombs hurting people when he murdered 6 people and injured a bunch of others? People really will abandon all common sense to try to absolve Dylan of guilt.

downwardspiral wrote:

Ok that's just ridiculous. He thinks Eric would have listened to "let's put the bomb away from houses" when they were planning to blow up the school? And he thinks Dylan was concerned about the cafeteria bombs hurting people when he murdered 6 people and injured a bunch of others? People really will abandon all common sense to try to absolve Dylan of guilt.

It's especially absurd because on the Basement Tapes they talk about where to place the diversionary bomb.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

They say they need to discuss secondary objectives to place the bombs, places that are “out of the way.” Dylan mentions a trail near Wadsworth, “by your old house” (7844 South Teller Court, according to Eric’s home computer). They then talk about how they should “rig something up with a trip bomb between two trees, so when someone goes down the path it will go off.” The boys then discuss the possibility of “placing time bombs down there.” They mention it would be “harder and take more resources.” They say, “This will add a few frags to the list” and that the “fucking fire department is going to be busy for a month.” wrote:

Their entire intent was to draw the police and first responders to an out of the way place to buy them time. Dylan is the one who suggested the walking path, where they knew someone might happen upon the bombs and get hurt. According to the Gleason book, there were surveyors there that saw and moved the packs out of their way from where they were working right before they exploded. The surveyors saw that one of the packs had an open pocket with a walkman in it. Maybe it was an enticement? Someone tries to steal the pack with the walkman and gets blown up.

thelmar wrote:

It's especially absurd because on the Basement Tapes they talk about where to place the diversionary bomb.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Their entire intent was to draw the police and first responders to an out of the way place to buy them time. Dylan is the one who suggested the walking path, where they knew someone might happen upon the bombs and get hurt. According to the Gleason book, there were surveyors there that saw and moved the packs out of their way from where they were working right before they exploded. The surveyors saw that one of the packs had an open pocket with a walkman in it. Maybe it was an enticement? Someone tries to steal the pack with the walkman and gets blown up.

I actually never heard of that story about the Walkman (and doubt Randy Brown did either), but, damn, that's pretty diabolical....the level of detail that they planned this out to is just ridiculous, even though all didn't go according to plan.

On the topic of people trying to absolve Dylan of guilt...there's this short story by Borges, written in the form of a literary review, about an author who endeavors to rewrite a word-for-word copy of Don Quixote. The literary critic praises the author's rendition as surpassing the original, ascribing differing meanings to identical passages from the two, based on the context in which they were written. I really feel like sometimes the analysis of Columbine approaches similar absurdity. Oftentimes Dylan and Eric said and did the exact same things, yet those identical words and actions are interpreted in Eric's case to be a sign of psychopathy, and in Dylan's case to be a sign of depression, psychosis, etc.

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What makes the Brown family so special? Randy shares journal entries with rants and ramblings. They seem loud and get into others business. I can not imagine them being very well liked by some in their community.

Besides Brooks Brown, there were other potential suspects: Chris Morris, Robert Perry, and Joe Stair.

dj_edog wrote:

Besides Brooks Brown, there were other potential suspects: Chris Morris, Robert Perry, and Joe Stair.

Not Joe in the slightest. I haven't seen her post in while, but Joe's sister is on the forum and she has a series detailing the shooting and the aftermath, if you haven't seen it I would be happy to link it for you!

Cyrinus wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

thelmar wrote:

Randy relayed the following of a discussion he had with Brooks

Sue's book talks about Dylan not being able to share toys and how his anger would make him upset enough to have to go the car to calm down.

I actually can believe Randy and Brooks in this instance.

I can remember Sue talking about this too. She did not hide Dylan's anger issues. I remember her talking about how Dylan had pushed her and said something along the lines of not being able to control his anger. Which makes me all the more curious why Randy says Sue's book is full of lies. It's not like she tried to say that Dylan was never angry and got along with everyone. She was pretty open about this.

thelmar wrote:

Some random things from the book-

Randy claims that Lee Andres, Sr and Jr. (the father and son music teachers at Columbine) were abusive to the students. He claims that Aaron was in the musical Guys and Dolls at Columbine in 2001, and it was great. But that the parents didn't know what went on behind the scenes:


He also says that once Aaron played a Chopin piece on the piano in the talent show and about halfway
through the piece one of the pedals began to squeak. After it had squeaked several times, Aaron turned to the audience, while continuing to play, smiled and shrugged his shoulders, like "What can you do?" and just kept going. After his piece was over, he received a standing ovation and Randy thinks it was because instead of quitting, he took the pedal squeak in stride and the audience appreciated that. But Mr. Andres (he doesn't specify Jr or Sr but I think it's Sr because he says he was the choir director) was angry at Aaron for making light of the situation and for looking at the audience; he criticized Aaron for it.

Randy claimed Andres, Sr. yelled, criticized, and made racial remarks when working with students.

This is unrelated, but I can see this being true. The high school band director at my old school got fired when I was in middle school. He was very abusive, yelling at kids and cussing them out. The school fired him when he threw a chair at a student.

Sue is the one that pushed Dylan. On Mothers Day in 1998, she felt Dylan was being incredibly disrespectful for a while, and had forgotten Mothers Day. She tried talking to Dylan in the kitchen and pushed him against the fridge because she was getting frustrated and Dylan told her "don't push me mom, I'm getting angry and I don't think I can control it"

Screamingophelia wrote:

dj_edog wrote:

Besides Brooks Brown, there were other potential suspects: Chris Morris, Robert Perry, and Joe Stair.

Not Joe in the slightest. I haven't seen her post in while, but Joe's sister is on the forum and she has a series detailing the shooting and the aftermath, if you haven't seen it I would be happy to link it for you!

I'm not sure dj-edog was implying that Joe should have been a suspect, just that because of his acquaintance with Eric and Dylan (and the TCM) that he was viewed as a suspect anyway.

dj_edog wrote:

What makes the Brown family so special? Randy shares journal entries with rants and ramblings. They seem loud and get into others business. I can not imagine them being very well liked by some in their community.

My family was their neighbor for 30+ years and my siblings were at Columbine on the day of the shooting. And I can say no, they are not.

thelmar wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

dj_edog wrote:

Besides Brooks Brown, there were other potential suspects: Chris Morris, Robert Perry, and Joe Stair.

Not Joe in the slightest. I haven't seen her post in while, but Joe's sister is on the forum and she has a series detailing the shooting and the aftermath, if you haven't seen it I would be happy to link it for you!

I'm not sure dj-edog was implying that Joe should have been a suspect, just that because of his acquaintance with Eric and Dylan (and the TCM) that he was viewed as a suspect anyway.

Ah! I apologize then. I am sorry.

I believe that the person Randy describes as “Greg Barnes’ best friend” is Landon Jones, a star football player. His girlfriend Caitlin Marquez accused him of stalking her.

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thelmar wrote:

Randy relayed the following of a discussion he had with Brooks

Did Randy say why Dylan broke Brooks' receiver?

jada887 wrote:

thelmar wrote:

Randy relayed the following of a discussion he had with Brooks

Did Randy say why Dylan broke Brooks' receiver?

He was upset that he had lost or was losing a video game and threw it in anger.

Just wait until you get to the ending. Randy discovers a bombshell () that will make you re-evaluate everything you’ve thought about the Columbine massacre. It will knock your 🧦 off!

Is it worth to buy the book?

downwardspiral wrote:

thelmar wrote:

He claims that in January 1999 Dylan told Brooks to give Eric another chance, that he could trust him. Randy interprets this as setting Brooks up to die.

Yes, that makes total sense considering they supposedly told Brooks to leave before the massacre (BTW the only reason why I think it's possible Brooks' claim of being told to leave might have happened, is because in Natural Born Killers, they always leave one witness behind to tell the story. But I still kind of doubt it did happen.)

Yes, in NBK, they mention they always leave one to tell the tale. So, it makes some sense if you see it as Brooks to tell the story outside, and John to tell the story inside. And everybody else was supposed to be dead. I much suspect they had hoped to die along with students and police in a second wave of bombing, in the cafeteria had the first worked when outside, or in the library above once it failed. It solves a lot of problems.

That aside, always had a certain skepticism about Brooks's story. Others have mentioned how he gets the year wrong with the ice story to seem closer to the perpetrators than he was. Another reason might be to explain (if it were made up) Eric's comment "I like you now", or, simply: it's not about being close to the perps for general clout, it's about being close to Eric so the parking lot story makes sense.

Others point out that Brooks is one to make such a theatrical lie yet Eric is also one to do something that theatrical. Brooks book is one hell of a cringe ride with the Ayn Rand and Insane Clown Posse and fedora.

thelmar wrote:

downwardspiral wrote:

Ok that's just ridiculous. He thinks Eric would have listened to "let's put the bomb away from houses" when they were planning to blow up the school? And he thinks Dylan was concerned about the cafeteria bombs hurting people when he murdered 6 people and injured a bunch of others? People really will abandon all common sense to try to absolve Dylan of guilt.

It's especially absurd because on the Basement Tapes they talk about where to place the diversionary bomb.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Their entire intent was to draw the police and first responders to an out of the way place to buy them time. Dylan is the one who suggested the walking path, where they knew someone might happen upon the bombs and get hurt. According to the Gleason book, there were surveyors there that saw and moved the packs out of their way from where they were working right before they exploded. The surveyors saw that one of the packs had an open pocket with a walkman in it. Maybe it was an enticement? Someone tries to steal the pack with the walkman and gets blown up.

Arguably, the houses nearby were just as out of the way as far as the school was concerned. Also, recall the Jeffco/CNN CD said the diversions had 'the capability of motion detection', so that it was probably the idea to not just divert with a fire, but to kill the responders who show up with a second wave (again as above). Probably think just left the walkman in there and don't think even in 1999 that's much of an enticement, but given the idea it was a trip bomb as well it's an interesting thought.

Also as far as them exploding, I think the usual story is just 1 pipe bomb and 1 aerosol can in one of the bags. Just to say it'd be "it" rather than "they" and one of the backpacks was a dud completely, as I understand.

And as for it being Cullenesque - yeah Brooks also says Eric led and Dylan followed. But people think it's either Cullen or Brooks is right, at least given the focus on bullying.

One thing that was genuinely shocking to me is the fact that Randy actually published Sue Klebold's phone number in this book. He had a chapter about Dylan's fangirls, and told them something like "You should call his mother and talk to her about it, here's her number". I didn't know you could do something like that. Even if the number was fake, it still looked strange.

In the ballistics report info. of 2002 section of the book, he alludes to information that describes the nature of wounds inflicted on the library victims...
He's very clear and repeats that he will not say what this is, as nobody would want to know. But that it's so grotesque and perverse that it should stay unknown in any detail.
Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

Turf wrote:

In the ballistics report info. of 2002 section of the book, he alludes to information that describes the nature of wounds inflicted on the library victims...
He's very clear and repeats that he will not say what this is, as nobody would want to know. But that it's so grotesque and perverse that it should stay unknown in any detail.
Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

Do you have the quote from the book?

Hi Cyrinus
Yes. (It's 64% area of Kindle)

And it could be that I'm reading more into it when perhaps simply, the forensic details of wounds just bring more of a taste of reality..but..

"This is a very sad and upsetting report.
It describes the wounds of the victims.
It gives a very detailed analysis of details that I wish I did not know, and that you do not want to know.

This report shows the violence of Eric and Dylan. Eric and Dylan were killers in the worst sense. They were cruel, horrible, miserable rotten kids that killed without regard to humanity...................
This report takes the theoretical shootings in the library and turns them into killings beyond understanding, and deserving of hate and anger..............................................

This report shows things beyond understanding, and beyond what you want to know.
In truth you do not want to know more than that. I will not write more than that.
It is beyond me. It is beyond what I can do or want to do. It is not something I can write about. It is not something that I should write about.

If I did, someone might read it, and believe me, you don't want to read it. or know it.
No matter how curious you are, you would be sorry that you learned this part of the Columbine tragedy.

I will not write it. I will not tell you that part of the story
I ask you to learn that lesson from these words alone."

So it could be a sensitive reaction to forensic realities but it seemed to me that he wanted to hint at something beyond that?

The information we have already is pretty gruesome, and we have the video of the library after the bodies were removed... plus the 911 call and the accounts from the 11k, so I am not sure what else Randy would have access to than that.