Dylan was less armed than Eric

The more I think about it, the more Dylan's role in the massacre seems to be delivering supportive fire.

Dylan was obviously armed with inferior weapons compared to Eric, and given that both shooters were supposed to separate according to the original plan, and fire from 2 points, angling the main entrance, Dylan was in a tougher position than Eric.

Tec9 is known for it's craptasticly poor performance, inaccurate sighting and constant jamming. Sure it had a large magazine, but it was basically a pistol, not a "poor man's uzi", as Dave Cullen writes - it was a latter model, not modifiable for rapid fire.

Besides that in terms of firearms Dylan have had only a 2-barrel break-action shotgun, which had to be reloaded after each 1-2 shots. If his TEC had jammed during the attack as planned, Dylan would've been, excuse my French, fucked - at least much sooner than Eric.

Eric, on the other hand, had Arlene with 6 punishing shots ready, and though pump-action shotguns are even slower to reload than break-action, Eric was probably more rapid with his weapon anyhow.

Dylan's weapons were close range, and this is, in my opinion, the reason why he have made only 5 shots outside the school - and barely hit anything. If the plan had gone as it was supposed to, Dylan would probably end up injuring many people, but killing much less than Eric.

Maybe he was just a suicidal decoy after all.

asdf12345 wrote:

Eric, on the other hand, had Arlene with 6 punishing shots ready, and though pump-action shotguns are even slower to reload than break-action, Eric was probably more rapid with his weapon anyhow.

I'm not a gun nut. But the shotgun Dylan used had to be cracked open after two shots, the spent shell remains had to be taken out, replaced with 2 new shells and then the whole shotgun had to be "cracked back togeather".

Eric's shotgun would automatically discard spent casings after each shot. Eric just had to load shells inside and then "pump" the gun after each shot. Most authorities I read were clear that a pump action shotgun is cabale of much faster and continued fire if someone experienced is using it, in comaprison with a two-barrel like Dylan had.

asdf12345 wrote:

Dylan's weapons were close range, and this is, in my opinion, the reason why he have made only 5 shots outside the school - and barely hit anything. If the plan had gone as it was supposed to, Dylan would probably end up injuring many people, but killing much less than Eric.

Maybe he was just a suicidal decoy after all.

I agree on the outside shooting.But keep in mind that Eric also took "Hail Mary" shots at kids far away on the playing field and across the knoll, missing them by a mile. Eric did however deliver the lethal shots from a much longer range than Dylan. Killing Rachel and Dave Sanders.

You have to keep in mind they were both minors. Eric was only technically an adult for a little over a week. They worked with what they could get and afford. Dylan was also more into his appearance on the day of the massacre. Maybe its just me, but the Tech-9 and DB shotgun looks a lot more menacing than the carbine and the single barrel shotgun. Most people see a Tech-9 with the long clip and think its fully automatic. It could have been a psychological tactic on Dylan's part. Plus if they had just used shotguns or handguns alone the police would have swarmed them a lot sooner. The carbine and the Tech-9 look more "powerful" than they really are (they are still guns of course). I'm pretty sure the Tech and Dylan's rapid firing are what made people believe they had fully auto guns. That's one of the many reasons JeffCo took so long. They believed E and D had stronger guns than they actually had.

Just another laughable thing those 2 idiots did.

Planned over a year...and yet had shitty fucking guns. Seriously. Dylan's guns were complete garbage, and he was ripped off. 500$ for a Tec-9? Yup. That's how you know they were just teenagers who knew nothing.

Nirvana92 wrote:

Plus if they had just used shotguns or handguns alone the police would have swarmed them a lot sooner. The carbine and the Tech-9 look more "powerful" than they really are (they are still guns of course). I'm pretty sure the Tech and Dylan's rapid firing are what made people believe they had fully auto guns. That's one of the many reasons JeffCo took so long. They believed E and D had stronger guns than they actually had.

I seriously doubt this part.

first of all witness reports were all around the place, including stating that there were shooters armed with fully automatics that "looked to be AK47". (Which was prolly one of the basis for all the conspiracy nonsense).

Also, its worth noting that it was Eric who was doing most of the rapid fire with his 9mm carbine, not Dylan with the TEC-9.

I still think Jeffco had little to no certainty of what these guys are exactly armed with right till the end of the shooting. And I sincerely doubt it wa sthe TEC-9 that caused teh confusion during the atcual shooting, it was crazy witness reports that had no ground in reality. Panic does its job.

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Planned over a year...and yet had shitty fucking guns

It was planned as a bombing so a schooting would be only an addition to that so I assume they didn't care about their guns but yeah it was infantile that they did not have got a plan B just in case that the bombs wouldn't go off.

I do believe that Dylan's choice of weapons was influenced by either psychological tactics or movies. His DB looked almost identical to the shotgun from the movie Desperado. Dylan also mentioned this to Nate Dykeman. He was very much into these type of films, i'm sure it played a role in his choice for this weapon.

The Tec-9 was probably just an impulse buy because it convientently became available to acquire without much hassle.

People should also consider that Dylan had less money to spent than Eric. He was always on and off jobs.

Nirvana92 wrote:

They worked with what they could get and afford. Dylan was also more into his appearance on the day of the massacre. Maybe its just me, but the Tech-9 and DB shotgun looks a lot more menacing than the carbine and the single barrel shotgun.

Eric could've given him the pump-action shotgun. But he didn't.
And honestly, I would've been surprised if Eric Harris did something like that, to me that would seem totally out of his character.

On the other hand, Eric's rifle was reported to jam a couple of times during the massacre, and I don't remember if Dylan's tec9 did that at any point, but I don't think it ever did, which is surprising to me given all the allegations that tec9 'constantly jams', so maybe I'm totally wrong about this one.

Though the feeling that Eric had armed himself a little better doesn't leave me at any point.

But all in all, yeah, I'd say they both had pretty crappy guns, maybe if they haven't spend so much money on the bombs and other useless shit, they could've gotten themselves something more serious, like a couple of old AK's or something.

MegaloX wrote:

I do believe that Dylan's choice of weapons was influenced by either psychological tactics or movies. .

Maybe Eric didn't interfere with such choice to impose some natural selection between the two, to see who's gonna be selected first.

MysteryMan wrote:

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Planned over a year...and yet had shitty fucking guns

It was planned as a bombing so a schooting would be only an addition to that so I assume they didn't care about their guns but yeah it was infantile that they did not have got a plan B just in case that the bombs wouldn't go off.

Dylan rapid firing on Lauren Townsend didnt help gun ID. The police were right outside listening and yet they seem to have been unable to identify shots from a semi-auto. I've been around firearms my whole life. You'd be surprised how many people see a Tech-9, MAC, or MP5 and jump right to thinking its fully automatic. Its the look of guns with long clips. For some reason they tend to be more menacing in the visual department. Plus an AK and a carbine aren't THAT much diffrent in shape and size. I've shot one of both before. I dont see it as too much of a stretch for a police officer to mis-ID a gun. They weren't ever in very close proximity to police that day any way.

And you say they didnt care about their guns, but that's not true. Eric specifically got a shotgun that looked like the one in doom. Eric also said they wanted to get Machine Pistols if they could afford him. He even comments on how Dylan's Tech looks "really nice", or something like that. The guns were a very important part of that day to them. Unlike the bombs they'd be using the guns with their own hands. They'd have to pull the triggers themselves. You can't tell me the kids who had T-shirts printed up for NBK didn't care what guns they were carrying. It was all about the look that day and leaving a lasting impression.

Nirvana92 wrote:

You can't tell me the kids who had T-shirts printed up for NBK didn't care what guns they were carrying. It was all about the look that day and leaving a lasting impression.

I didn't realize they had those shirt specially made. Jesus. That's kind of crazy to think about.

Also you seem to know a good bit about guns, I'm curious do you think they would have been better off with different guns?
And if so, what kind of guns would have suited the situation better?

Dylan also discarded more ammunition than he fired.

Dylan left 34 rounds in his car in the parking lot. He left a 50-round magazine outside with 40 rounds in it. He dropped another 7 shotgun shells near the entrance to the library.

That's 83 bullets to the 67 he fired.

I would say that he was only slightly less armed than Eric. The HighPoint Carbine 995 is no super-gun. The thing fired the same 9mm rounds as the Tec-9 and is also known to be crappy and unreliable. The Tec-9 was shortened making it way less accurate so he was down one on the accord. Beside the shotguns their other weapons were horrible, in all regards. I wonder why Eric chose the carbine over something smaller and lighter? The library would of had no much room for manoeuvring a 830mm gun. So yea, I think that Eric had slightly more fire-power than Dylan, but mainly just better accuracy of weapon.

One more thing: Dylan was left-handed.
The TEC-9 has a cocking handle on the right side.
This means that every time Dylan wanted to reload, he had to change hands, which was probably awkward for him.

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I wonder why Eric chose the carbine over something smaller and lighter? The library would of had no much room for manoeuvring a 830mm gun.

You forget that he wasn't planning on entering the library at all.
The plan was to take positions in the parking lot and maul down the survivors of the explosion running outside, so Eric probably wanted something with a long range, more or less accurate and looking badass if possible.
He most likely wanted something like AR-15, but the carbine was the closest thing he could afford.

Sabratha wrote:

asdf12345 wrote:

Eric, on the other hand, had Arlene with 6 punishing shots ready, and though pump-action shotguns are even slower to reload than break-action, Eric was probably more rapid with his weapon anyhow.

I'm not a gun nut. But the shotgun Dylan used had to be cracked open after two shots, the spent shell remains had to be taken out, replaced with 2 new shells and then the whole shotgun had to be "cracked back togeather".

Eric's shotgun would automatically discard spent casings after each shot. Eric just had to load shells inside and then "pump" the gun after each shot. Most authorities I read were clear that a pump action shotgun is cabale of much faster and continued fire if someone experienced is using it, in comaprison with a two-barrel like Dylan had.

asdf12345 wrote:

Dylan's weapons were close range, and this is, in my opinion, the reason why he have made only 5 shots outside the school - and barely hit anything. If the plan had gone as it was supposed to, Dylan would probably end up injuring many people, but killing much less than Eric.

Maybe he was just a suicidal decoy after all.

I agree on the outside shooting.But keep in mind that Eric also took "Hail Mary" shots at kids far away on the playing field and across the knoll, missing them by a mile. Eric did however deliver the lethal shots from a much longer range than Dylan. Killing Rachel and Dave Sanders.

Sorry... The gun nut in me is compelled to correct you on a few things....
Double barrel, They have 2 triggers (One for each barrel), double barrels are known to be off on one side just a bit (Shooter has to figure out which side is the accurate side to compensate for the site being off), but this of course does not matter since they sawed off the end of it taking all sites with it. Anyways when you pull both triggers and have shot both of your rounds most newer models when you open it the break has a mechanism that if done fast enough will pop the shells out. So you may be right about him having to pull the shells out if he didn't do it fast enough or anything else happens.
Pump actions.... These do not fire and discharge the shell automatically, you chamber the round, fire, then pump the gun when the slide comes back (During the pump) is when the empty shell s discharged, then the next in the tube drops in place and when the slide comes back forward is when the next round is loaded.
Tech 9AB... AB stands for After Ban, this is the same weapon as the TEC-9 DC with just a few modifications to make it legal under the AR ban of the 90s, they removed the heat sink and made a few other modifications to be able to sell them... I have a Tec-9 DC.... It is the biggest piece of shit I have ever owned... It CONSTANTLY jams and like was said earlier not accurate... I'm sure Dylan had at least 1 jam, this would explain some of his magazines being found 1/2 full. The Tec-9 is favored by gang bangers because of their high round magazines. This is more of a "Spray and Pray" you have 32-50 rounds to throw out at someone/thing youwill hit what you want but not where you want.
The Hi-point carbine... I looked at one of these. They guy at the shop did say it was accurate but the draw back is 10 round magazines. This is a cheap gun but is supposed to be reliable. I would say this is better than the tech-9... but not as intimidating, which I think Dylan may have wanted to appear as intimidating as possible while Eric wanted to inflict as much damage as possible.

Any who that's just my 2 pennies.

asdf12345 wrote:

One more thing: Dylan was left-handed.
The TEC-9 has a cocking handle on the right side.
This means that every time Dylan wanted to reload, he had to change hands, which was probably awkward for him.

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I wonder why Eric chose the carbine over something smaller and lighter? The library would of had no much room for manoeuvring a 830mm gun.

You forget that he wasn't planning on entering the library at all.
The plan was to take positions in the parking lot and maul down the survivors of the explosion running outside, so Eric probably wanted something with a long range, more or less accurate and looking badass if possible.
He most likely wanted something like AR-15, but the carbine was the closest thing he could afford.

I was making an edit of my silly mistakes when I accidentally pressed back instead of switching tab. So yea I did forget that the library was never in the gameplan, but would't something with a scope be a little more accurate? They kinda just took pot-shots at people everywhere out side.

Eric wanted to get a laser sighting device, he wrote about it in his "Shit left to do list", but he never gotten around it and I don't think he would've ever gotten money to do that, these things are costly.

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Probably never accomplished the 'get laid' either, but who the fuck knows.

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And you say they didnt care about their guns, but that's not true. Eric specifically got a shotgun that looked like the one in doom. Eric also said they wanted to get Machine Pistols if they could afford him. He even comments on how Dylan's Tech looks "really nice", or something like that. The guns were a very important part of that day to them. Unlike the bombs they'd be using the guns with their own hands. They'd have to pull the triggers themselves. You can't tell me the kids who had T-shirts printed up for NBK didn't care what guns they were carrying. It was all about the look that day and leaving a lasting impression.

- They purchased guns which weren't appropriated for a plan they had. They wanted to mow down kids from a distance after bombs went off. Shotgun isn't a good choice at all especially a double barrel.
- As was mentioned before the guns were piece of crap they didnt put some effort to find better firearms.
- They were poor shooters so we could say they didnt train too much at all.
- You've right Eric made some comments about his Arlene and it proves that they only cared about how the guns looked but not how they would work in practice.

MegaloX wrote:

I do believe that Dylan's choice of weapons was influenced by either psychological tactics or movies. His DB looked almost identical to the shotgun from the movie Desperado. Dylan also mentioned this to Nate Dykeman. He was very much into these type of films, i'm sure it played a role in his choice for this weapon.

Seems coherent. Dylan on the basement tapes (already after test-firing the guns) was reported to thank the manufacturer of teh shotgun and overall express satisfaction with it. So his shooting results didn't seem to influence his opinion of the gun that much at all.

MegaloX wrote:

The Tec-9 was probably just an impulse buy because it convientently became available to acquire without much hassle.

Yep. Although overall we need to be clear on one thing: Obtaining guns was Erics doing. He masterminded it, he paid for most of the guns IIRC and h prioitized himself when it came to gun purchases (he got both of his own guns at once, Dylan had to wait for his second firearm). I do not think Robyn being Dylan's friend changes this much, this is the part of the whole planning that seems to have been mostly Eric's turf and Eric's doing.

asdf12345 wrote:

Probably never accomplished the 'get laid' either, but who the fuck knows.

It wouldn't matter anyways as far as the shooting goes and I would prefer to respect surviving people's privacy and not dwell on this one. I know one thing: if I was a girl livng in Littleton and slept with any of the killers, I would not admitt to it and would downplay the whole thing saying we were just acquintances or friends etc.


Still, Eric would probably brag anyways... or would he? If it came up late, he probably wouldn't - he didn't contribute much writing shortly before the massacre.

asdf12345 wrote:

Probably never accomplished the 'get laid' either, but who the fuck knows.

It wouldn't matter anyways as far as the hooting goesand I would pefer to respect other people's privacy and not dwell on this one. I know one thing: if I was a girl livng in Littleton and slept with any of the killers, I would not admitt to it and would downplay the whole thing saying we were just acquintances or friends etc.


Still, Eric would probably brag anyways... or would he? If it came up late, he probably wouldn't - he didn't contribute much writing shortly before the massacre.