Eric the cowering shrimp

If you watch this video:
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You'll see that Eric's body language tells you that he was not an alpha male.

At the 1:59 mark, he sees the jocks coming toward him ... he stops talking and keeps looking straight ahead. He is steeling himself for a confrontation. His posture stiffens.

(Note that the jock on the right side of the screen is flipping off the camera.)

At the 2:04 mark, Eric lowers his head as he walks past the bigger boys. This is an act of submission.

Whether or not Eric was "bullied," per se, he was clearly intimidated by those who were larger than him.

Oh yeah. Not to mention if you watch the whole "Eric in Columbine" video, you can hear him being teased by girls at a table next to the one where he is sitting. In this video @ 4:04 if you listen very close you can hear a girl say "He spins everything around!" while Eric is spinning the cell phone. Watch his demeanor change after he hears this insult.



Later he is shot down by a couple of girls. After one rejection, someone at the table says "Eric just got jacked up the ass." To which Eric responds with a seriously angry/hurt expression. (For some, his response even lends credence to the "Walsh butt rape" rumor).  

And near the end of the tape you hear the kid Eric is walking with say "I like Eric." As if he is an exception to the general rule.

Meanwhile the rest of the  conversation on the tape is people talking about how much they hate Columbine and jocks; kids bragging or outright telling tall tales, and Eric saying he hates people and wants to kill most of them.

This short video actually provides evidence for many of the things the boys said about CHS if you look and listen very closely.

Cards were stacked against him.. small, physical abnormalities, awkward personality.. fueled the fire for retaliation.

The tables would've turned in his favor over time, but that opportunity came to close on 4/20. Hard to see that as a troubled teenager.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

Cards were stacked against him..  small, physical abnormalities, awkward personality..  fueled the fire for retaliation.

Yes.

Eric had deep-seated feelings of worthlessness. The fuel for his rage resided in a vast reservoir of extreme self-loathing.

i don't know where Cullen dredged up this swaggering, ultra-confident ladies' man that he keeps telling us about, but he sure as hell didn't find him at Columbine High School.

LPorter101 wrote:

Fatheroftwo wrote:

Cards were stacked against him..  small, physical abnormalities, awkward personality..  fueled the fire for retaliation.

Yes.

Eric had deep-seated feelings of worthlessness. The fuel for his rage resided in a vast reservoir of extreme self-loathing.

i don't know where Cullen dredged up this swaggering, ultra-confident ladies' man that he keeps telling us about, but he sure as hell didn't find him at Columbine High School.

Well said, LPorter.

I think Eric's loathing of himself is definitely downplayed. I cannot believe how many people buy into Dave Cullen's bs theories. It was extremely important to everyone in that school to have dates. That's mostly how guys were judged from what I saw.

It's easy for Cullen to write Eric off as some psychopathic anomaly. To me, he comes across as a Dylan fanboi with a hidden crush on Eric. Both of them pulled this off. I've always thought Dylan was more focused and mentally ill. Just my opinion though. They both had their reasons..

Portraying Eric as some Sex God Amongst Outcasts, falsifying his sex life and putting him in an undeserved, convenient, psychopath cabinet is ridiculous and misleading.

Violenta wrote:

Portraying Eric as some Sex God Amongst Outcasts, falsifying his sex life and putting him in an undeserved, convenient, psychopath cabinet is ridiculous and misleading.

It's also irresponsible and dangerous as it obscures the very real reasons that many (if not all) school shootings happen. It makes it OK to keep on stepping on the "shrimps" and "losers" of the world.

I put those terms in quotes because I personally do not accept these kinds of hierarchies as being anything more than constructs (or organic outgrowths) of a twisted, predatory society. I don't think they hold any basis in objective nature and that includes analogies of evolution, natural selection, etc.

OK, drifting off topic again, so will stop now...

Eric was not an outcast.

In the 11k and related documents there are 10 different girls Eric is listed as dating. Alisa Owen (3983) Tiffany Typher, Valerie Lage  (19017). Sasha Jacobs (960), [redactedt]  (10,277), [redacted]  (18,523) [redacted]  (22,353), Katie Thompson  (1221), Jennifer Sweet  (22,258), and Susan Dewitt his prom date.  Several more liked him: Stephanie True (8848), Marla Foust and Katie Thompson (1575), and Kristi Epling had crushes on him.

Also in the 11K there are 27 people listed as "associates," meaning significant friendships.  That is a huge number of friends for a high school student to have.  And it doesn't even include people like Jessica Guertz, Katie Thompson, and Veronica Griffith, whom Eric took to lunch two weeks before attack (3131).

He had an extremely active social life and was no way an outcast.

Nice try lasttrain but it won't wash:

"I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't fucking say, "well thats your fault" because it isnt, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no dont let the weird looking Eric KID come along, ohh fucking nooo"

"I'll get revenge soon enough. fuckers shouldn't have ripped on me so much huh! HA! then again its human nature to do what you did... you know what maybe I just need to get laid."

"The fact that I have practically no selfesteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. therefore people make fun of me .. constantly..therefore I get no respect and therefore I get fucking PISSED"

"Right now I'm trying to get fucked and trying to finish off these time bombs. NBK came quick. why the fuck cant I get any? I mean, I'm nice and considerate and all that shit, but noooo"

That's just scratching the surface.

Plus almost all the girls he had a date with never went back out with him again because he was strange, weird, non-talkative, and "dark".

Don't bother trying to reason with lasttrain on subjects like these. While he can be informative on other topics like Dave Cullen, he (as well as Dave Cullen) believe in the ridiculous crap that Eric was the master mind, and Dylan was the follower, and he is a 100% supporter of Dave Cullen's book, and called it the greatest Columbine research book. That's all you need to know, lol.

lol wrote:

Plus almost all the girls he had a date with never went back out with him again because he was strange, weird, non-talkative, and "dark".

Don't bother trying to reason with  lasttrain on subjects like these. While he can be informative on other topics like Dave Cullen, he (as well as Dave Cullen) believe in the ridiculous crap that Eric was the master mind, and Dylan was the follower, and he is a 100% supporter of Dave Cullen's book, and called it the greatest Columbine research book. That's all you need to know, lol.

Yeah, I'm getting that impression. I'll save my aching fingers next time and let someone else field the Cullen-spam.

I think some people believe the Eric/mastermind/born evil/psychopath because it's easier than seeing him.or others as a human being, with both feelings and the need for retribution.

I've never thought the shooting was acceptable. Don't want to come across that way.

But he clearly gave us his reasons. To ignore his own words is both ignorant and highly egotistical. He knew why he had to do this in his mind; he told us all pretty clearly.

Violenta wrote:

I think some people believe the Eric/mastermind/born evil/psychopath because it's easier than seeing him.or others as a human being

I see Eric as a human being and as a psychopath. One doesn't really negatre the other.

I think people don't acknowledge Eric's psychopathy and how deeply he was dissatisfied with everyday mundane things that don't bother normal people. Eric's core beliefs and affective qualities are alien to people, they don't get these because they never experienced anything like he did. They never walked in his shoes, or even in similar shoes.

Thus they don't concentrate on the things that made him unusual, but rather on the things he had in common with most of the population. People tend to look for reasons and things that annoy and influence them - music, bullying, videogames, nazism, racism, bad parents or whatever. They concentrate their attention on his rants about Star Wars geeks or about his friends not giving him enough respect. Sure, they annoyed Eric, but this was not his core belief behind the shooting.

There's a reason why the extent of his anger was so wide and why he was aiming at society as a whole.

That's an error, because you need to concentrate on what made Eric rare and unusual - his dissatisfaction with everyday, mundane life:

Eric Harris wrote:

The human race sucks. human nature is smuthered out by society, jobs, and work and school. instincts are deleted by laws. I see people say things that contradict themselves, or people that dont take any advantage to the gift of human life. they waste their minds on memorizing the stats of every college basketball player or how many words should be an a report when they should be using their brain on more important things. the human race isnt worth fighting for anymore. WWII was the last war worth fighting and was the last time human life and human brains did any good any made us proud. now, with the government having scandals and conspiracies all over the fucking place and lying to everyone all the time and with worthless pointless mindless discraceful TV shows on (scratched out) and with everyone ub-fucking-sessed with hollywood and beauty and fame and glamour and politics and anything famous, people just arent worth saving. Society may not realize what is happening but I have; you go to school, to get used to studying and learning how youre "supposed to" so that drains or filters out a little bit of human nature. but thats after your parents taught you whats right and wrong even though you may think differently, you still must to have more of your human nature blown out of your ass. society trys to make everyone act the same by burying all human nature and instincts. Thats what school, laws, jobs, and parents do If they realize it or not and them, the few who stick to their natural instincts are casted out as psychos or lunatics or strangers or just plain different. crazy, strange, weird, wild, these words are not bad or degrading.. if humans were let to live how we would naturaly it would be chaos and anarchy and the human race wouldnt probably last that long, but hey guess what, thats how its supposed to be!!!!! society and goverments are only created to have order and calmness, which is exactly the opposite of pure human nature. take away all your laws and morals and just see what you can do. if the goverment was one entity it would be thinking "hey, lets make some order here and calm these crazy fucks down so we can be constructive and fight other goverments in our own little so called self created "civilizied world" and get rid of all those damn insticts everyone has"

Eric Harris wrote:

ver wonder why we go to school? besides getting a so called education. its not to obvious to most of you stupid fucks but for these who think a little more and deeper you should realize it. its societies way of turning all the young people into good little robots and factory workers thats why we sit in desks in rows and go by bell schedules, to get prepared for the real world cause "thats what its like". well god damit no it isnt! one thing that seperates us from other animals is the fact that we can carry on actual thoughts. so why don't we? people go on day by day. rutine shit. why cant we learn in school how we want to. why cant we sit on desks and on shelves and put our feet up and relax while we learn? cause thats not what the "real world is like" well hey fuckheads, there is no such thing as an actual "real world". its just another word like justice, sorry, pity, religion, faith, luck and so on. we are humans. if we dont like something we have the fucking ability to change! but we dont, atleast U dont. I would. U just whine/bitch thoughtout life but never do a goddamn thing to change anything. "man can eat, drink, fuck, and hunt and anything else he does is madness" - Based on Lem's quote. boy oh fuckin boy is that true. when I go NBK, and people say things like, "oh it was so tragic," or "oh he is crazy!" or "It was bloody!" I think, so the fuck what, you think thats a bad thing? just because your mommy and daddy told you blood and violence is bad, you think its a fucking law of nature? wrong, only science and math are true, everything, and I mean everyfuckingthing else is man made. my doctor wants to put me on medication to stop thinking about so many things and to stop getting angry. well, I think that anyone doesnt like me is just bullshitting themselves. try it sometime if you think you are worthy, which you probly will you little shits, drop all your beliefs and views and ideas that have been burned into your head and try to think about why your here. but I bet most of you fuckers cant even think that deep, so that is why you must die. how dare you think that I and you are part of the same species when we are sooooooo different. you arent human you are a Robot. you dont take advantage of your capabilites given to you at birth. you just drop them and hop onto the boat and headdown the stream of life with all the other fuckers of your type. well god damit I wont be a part of it!

Also his (bordering on obsessive) stressing that this is his autonomic decision.

Eric Harris wrote:

only Nature can stop me. I know I could get shot by a cop after only killing a single person, but hey guess the fuck WHAT! I chose to kill that one person so get over it! Its MY fault! not my parents, not my brothers, not my friends, not my favorite bands, not computer games, not the media. IT is MINE! go shut the fuck up!

Eric did in fact give us his reasons, but people tend to glance over them, bnecuase they don't undersatnd them. Because they are not like Eric, becuase they experience emotions differently than he did.

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I definitely understand people's thoughts that he was, or may have had some tendencies . It's the people who have not investigated or researched at all, constantly parroting Cullen or Fuselier that I can't understand.

I think it's easier for the masses not familiar, to just sweep him into a neat, convenient psychopath pile.

Violenta wrote:

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I definitely understand people's thoughts that he was, or may have had some tendencies . It's the people who have not investigated or researched at all, constantly parroting Cullen or Fuselier that I can't understand.

I think it's easier for the masses not familiar, to just sweep him into a neat, convenient psychopath pile.

I think there are a lot of issues with dismissing either of the boys as psychopaths, personally.

Eric was very awkward. Anyone, without an agenda, who's watching that video of him can see it. From the way he barely says anything and when he does talk, you can barely hear him, to his mannerisms. It all screams out someone whos very insecure and insecurity does not attract girls.
Cullen clearly leaves out a lot of the video when he's discussing it in his book. He also blatantly lies, so not too surprising he misrepresented this video.

I don't think he was a complete psychopath. There is no fine line that seperates people into non psychopaths and psychopaths. He had some tendencies, he had some issues, but he didn't tick every box. He was eager to get laid, lingered when saying goodbye to his parents in a way that I don't think a psychopath would, he had a solid life plan (short but planned out nonetheless), showed signs that could (could be interpreted differently tho?) be seen as nervousness, and I don't think he was antisocial - he was bitter about being bullied, ignored, not accepted. He kept his plans covered, but he wasn't neccessarily a good liar, he displayed his emotions and anger much more than Dylan. He was quite emotional.

eli27 wrote:

I don't think he was a complete psychopath. There is no fine line that seperates people into non psychopaths and psychopaths. He had some tendencies, he had some issues, but he didn't tick every box. He was eager to get laid, lingered when saying goodbye to his parents in a way that I don't think a psychopath would, he had a solid life plan (short but planned out nonetheless), showed signs that could (could be interpreted differently tho?) be seen as nervousness, and I don't think he was antisocial - he was bitter about being bullied, ignored, not accepted. He kept his plans covered, but he wasn't neccessarily a good liar, he displayed his emotions and anger much more than Dylan. He was quite emotional.

Besides that -- "psychopath" is such a general term. Most of the people running the big companies and militaries of the world, not to mention governments and churches are technically "psychopaths" or "sociopaths."

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Personally, I don't think either of the boys were psychopaths.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

eli27 wrote:

I don't think he was a complete psychopath. There is no fine line that seperates people into non psychopaths and psychopaths. He had some tendencies, he had some issues, but he didn't tick every box. He was eager to get laid, lingered when saying goodbye to his parents in a way that I don't think a psychopath would, he had a solid life plan (short but planned out nonetheless), showed signs that could (could be interpreted differently tho?) be seen as nervousness, and I don't think he was antisocial - he was bitter about being bullied, ignored, not accepted. He kept his plans covered, but he wasn't neccessarily a good liar, he displayed his emotions and anger much more than Dylan. He was quite emotional.

Besides that -- "psychopath" is such a general term. Most of the people running the big companies and militaries of the world, not to mention governments and churches are technically "psychopaths" or "sociopaths."

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Personally, I don't think either of the boys were psychopaths.

Yeah.

These terms are so generalised, how can they fit to any specific person?

Don't get me started on churches lol

eli27 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

eli27 wrote:

I don't think he was a complete psychopath. There is no fine line that seperates people into non psychopaths and psychopaths. He had some tendencies, he had some issues, but he didn't tick every box. He was eager to get laid, lingered when saying goodbye to his parents in a way that I don't think a psychopath would, he had a solid life plan (short but planned out nonetheless), showed signs that could (could be interpreted differently tho?) be seen as nervousness, and I don't think he was antisocial - he was bitter about being bullied, ignored, not accepted. He kept his plans covered, but he wasn't neccessarily a good liar, he displayed his emotions and anger much more than Dylan. He was quite emotional.

Besides that -- "psychopath" is such a general term. Most of the people running the big companies and militaries of the world, not to mention governments and churches are technically "psychopaths" or "sociopaths."

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Personally, I don't think either of the boys were psychopaths.

Yeah.

These terms are so generalised, how can they fit to any specific person?

Don't get me started on churches lol

It's a good way to maintain the status-quo which benefits the true psychopaths: the guys at the top of society; not just the jocks at CHS.

He may not have been born a psychopath but he might turned himself into one. He was definitely sadistic, without a doubt. So all he had to do was use his anger to get rid of any feelings of sympathy or empathy he might have had towards people. He didn't appear to have too many deep emotions. He was self-pitying, but that's just part of the narccesism. He hated people and society to an extreme degree. Other people may on occasion bitch about society but it doesn't generally make us plan massacres.
I go back and forth on it though. Im not entirely convinced either way. But almost all available evidence does point to him being a psychopath as we define it.
I have considered borderline personality disorder too.

LPorter101 wrote:

Fatheroftwo wrote:

Cards were stacked against him..  small, physical abnormalities, awkward personality..  fueled the fire for retaliation.

Yes.

Eric had deep-seated feelings of worthlessness. The fuel for his rage resided in a vast reservoir of extreme self-loathing.

i don't know where Cullen dredged up this swaggering, ultra-confident ladies' man that he keeps telling us about, but he sure as hell didn't find him at Columbine High School.

Cullen had to make him appear like he had no reason to be as angry as he was. Otherwise, he couldn't sell the idea of Columbine having nothing to do with bullying. He had to act like he had some amazing new discovery to sell his book. He's a fraud and we all know it. He couldn't sell the psychopathy idea without it, because people mistakenly have this idea that all psychopaths have to be these charming, smooth talking people.
Imo I think the few dates Eric did get were pity dates.

aubre wrote:

He may not have been born a psychopath but he might turned himself into one.

I don't think you can "turn yourself into a psychopath." I think, for a 17 year old chronically bullied kid, he was responding rationally (if unwisely) to the situation at hand. In many others cultures in human history no-one would have thought twice about someone committing homicide on a point of honor. Nor would suicide after public humiliation be looked on as anything other than appropriate and honorable. In fact, our own culture is built on 'retribution" and 'getting even," most every movie or TV show or meme is connected to "might makes right" and 'getting even." Mostly doing these things with violence but also with money. In foreign policy, we call it "American exceptionalism." Really it is just bullying on a global scale.

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People always say Dylan=Suicidal; Eric=Homicidal, but in reality they were both equally suicidal and equally homicidal as well. Yes Eric technically shot more people, but he was no more brutal than Dylan. And Dylan was "whooping" it up pretty good during the attack. I'm convinced he had crappy weapons; not convinced that he had a nagging conscience. Not anymore than Eric anyway.

In the BT by all accounts it's Dylan that is the more bloodthirsty of the two and Eric who shows the most remorse. Eric did cry and verbally apologize to the people he loved. Dylan only wrote about love; he never mentioned it in the BT. Instead he said "I am going to kill you all."

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aubre wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Fatheroftwo wrote:

Cards were stacked against him..  small, physical abnormalities, awkward personality..  fueled the fire for retaliation.

Yes.

Eric had deep-seated feelings of worthlessness. The fuel for his rage resided in a vast reservoir of extreme self-loathing.

i don't know where Cullen dredged up this swaggering, ultra-confident ladies' man that he keeps telling us about, but he sure as hell didn't find him at Columbine High School.

Cullen had to make him appear like he had no reason to be as angry as he was. Otherwise, he couldn't sell the idea of Columbine having nothing to do with bullying. He had to act like he had some amazing new discovery to sell his book. He's a fraud and we all know it. He couldn't sell the psychopathy idea without it, because people mistakenly have this idea that all psychopaths have to be these charming, smooth talking people.
Imo I think the few dates Eric did get were pity dates.

Absolutely true. Great post, imo.

Whatever else one wants to say about Eric, I can't agree that he didn't have deep emotions. I would have to argue that he felt things very deeply and that his inability to manage or control his hate,hurt and anger was the beginning of his problems. JMO.

aubre wrote:

He may not have been born a psychopath but he might turned himself into one. He was definitely sadistic, without a doubt. So all he had to do was use his anger to get rid of any feelings of sympathy or empathy he might have had towards people. He didn't appear to have too many deep emotions. He was self-pitying, but that's just part of the narccesism. He hated people and society to an extreme degree. Other people may on occasion bitch about society but it doesn't generally make us plan massacres.
I go back and forth on it though. Im not entirely convinced either way. But almost all available evidence does point to him being a psychopath as we define it.
I have considered borderline personality disorder too.

eli27 wrote:

I don't think he was a complete psychopath. There is no fine line that seperates people into non psychopaths and psychopaths. He had some tendencies, he had some issues, but he didn't tick every box.

True, but then again psychopaths that tick every box are a small minority amongst psychopaths. Most do not.

Langman makes a theory that psychopaths who go on a rampage are actually those psychopaths who while narcissistic and sadistic, actually have the least emotional detachment and rather rnormal emotional components in comparison with other psychopaths.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I would have to argue that he felt things very deeply and that his inability to manage or control his hate,hurt and anger was the beginning of his problems. JMO.

Inability to control one's anger is actually a classic antisocial trait.

aubre wrote:

He may not have been born a psychopath but he might turned himself into one. He was definitely sadistic, without a doubt. So all he had to do was use his anger to get rid of any feelings of sympathy or empathy he might have had towards people. He didn't appear to have too many deep emotions. He was self-pitying, but that's just part of the narccesism. He hated people and society to an extreme degree. Other people may on occasion bitch about society but it doesn't generally make us plan massacres.
I go back and forth on it though. Im not entirely convinced either way. But almost all available evidence does point to him being a psychopath as we define it.
I have considered borderline personality disorder too.

I think he was psychopathic in fact, which doesn't mean he didn't feel attached to his parents, his dog or that his friendship mwith Dylan was not geniuine. He was certainly grandiose, narcissistic, self-absorbed, had little empathy, killed without remorse, had issues with controlling his anger. He felt himself above laws and felt himself entitled to judge everyone else. He had fantasies centered on violence, rape and killing. He got a kick out of lying and decieving people. I also think he got a kick out of being in control.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

People always say Dylan=Suicidal; Eric=Homicidal, but in reality they were both equally suicidal and equally homicidal as well.

Yes they were, bot not to the same degree. Dylan mentioned suicide in his journals, severla times he wrote soemthing to the extent of: "This is thbe last entry I'm writing". Also during teh atatck people heard him shout: "Today I'm gonna die!"

For Eric suicide was less of an issue, rather a logical outcome of taking on the whole world (that's how he seen this).

I also think Eric had big reasons to feel angry. Bullying might have contributed to his anger and feeling like the whole world sucks, so did his arrest.

But his core belief is that modern society is corrupt, opressess natural instincts and makes robots out of people. If you don't take Eric's statements about society, schools etc seriously, then you will never understand Eric.

Sabratha wrote:

But his core belief is that modern society is corrupt, opressess natural instincts and makes robots out of people. If you don't take Eric's statements about society, schools etc seriously, then you will never understand Eric.

I think that is true for both boys actually. Good point.

I think some people read into his statements about him hating the way he looks and people constantly making fun of him way to much. I'm sure he did get picked on sometimes and he had a hard time with girls. His response to those things is way out of proportion. Because the truth is that he hated people. He wanted everyone to die. I don't need much more proof that this is true, other than that he said it himself.
What sticks in my mind is the fact that he tried to bomb the place. He goal in life was to be responsible for the deaths of hundreds of people. This is what he wanted his legacy to be.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

aubre wrote:

He may not have been born a psychopath but he might turned himself into one.

I don't think you can "turn yourself into a psychopath." I think, for a 17 year old chronically bullied kid, he was responding rationally (if unwisely) to the situation at hand. In many others cultures in human history no-one would have thought twice about someone committing homicide on a point of honor. Nor would suicide after public humiliation be looked on as anything other than appropriate and honorable. In fact, our own culture is built on 'retribution" and 'getting even," most every movie or TV show or meme is connected to "might makes right" and 'getting even." Mostly doing these things with violence but also with money. In foreign policy, we call it "American exceptionalism." Really it is just bullying on a global scale.

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People always say Dylan=Suicidal; Eric=Homicidal, but in reality they were both equally suicidal and equally homicidal as well. Yes Eric technically shot more people, but he was no more brutal than Dylan. And Dylan was "whooping" it up pretty good during the attack. I'm convinced he had crappy weapons; not convinced that he had a nagging conscience. Not anymore than Eric anyway.

In the BT by all accounts it's Dylan that is the more bloodthirsty of the two and Eric who shows the most remorse. Eric did cry and verbally apologize to the people he loved. Dylan only wrote about love; he never mentioned it in the BT. Instead he said "I am going to kill you all."

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You're right our culture is built on retribution and violence. His response would have been rational if he only went after the people who actually hurt him. He didn't do that. Instead he planned for at least a year to kill as many people as he could and he was willing to die to do that. He really didn't have a rational reason for this. He wrote a lot about hating society as a whole and how it got rid of our natural instincts. I believe he wrote those things, because it was the only way he could rationalize his own depraved feelings. He wanted to hurt people and he wanted to murder people.
I do think that over time you can turn yourself into somebody that can resemble a psychopath. For all I know he might have been born one. Unfortunately we don't have much info on his childhood.
Sorry if this isn't very clear I had a long night and I am having a hard time getting out what I want to say.

aubre wrote:

You're right our culture is built on retribution and violence. His response would have been rational if he only went after the people who actually hurt him.

Everyone in the school, barring very few individuals, "actually hurt him." The school was a symbol for the larger bullying culture. As I have been suggesting at great length in other threads, the boys did discriminate about who they killed and they showed a clear interest in striking at the totems of the system. If the U.S. bombs an Afghan village and hits 1 terrorist and ten "collateral damage targets" -- which are usually babies or peaceful families -- the default position is not: "Oh, the U.S. is psychopathic; they will kill anyone they see. It's irrational."

IMO, Columbine was an act of domestic terrorism; an act of war. So if you (not you personally obviously) are going to call war "rational" under any circumstance, then I think it applies here, too.

"Oh, the U.S. is psychopathic; they will kill anyone they see. It's irrational." One could argue that the U.S. is psychopathic. But I do see what you're saying. They attackedtheirsociety and the symbols of that society they felt wronged them the most. I'm not convinced they were targeting specific groups of people once the shooting started. I think to them, if someone was their wearing a white hat than great, if not oh well.
My point is that, it seems like a lot of excuses for a need that they didn't quite understand. He needed a justification for his sick feelings and his desire to murder people. I don't really see this whole thing as a war. Unless you consider it a war against humanity.
That's not to say I don't believe he was bullied because I do think he was. I also believe he would have been this way regardless.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Whatever else one wants to say about Eric, I can't agree that he didn't have deep emotions. I would have to argue that he felt things very deeply and that his inability to manage or control his hate,hurt and anger was the beginning of his problems. JMO.

aubre wrote:

He may not have been born a psychopath but he might turned himself into one. He was definitely sadistic, without a doubt. So all he had to do was use his anger to get rid of any feelings of sympathy or empathy he might have had towards people. He didn't appear to have too many deep emotions. He was self-pitying, but that's just part of the narccesism. He hated people and society to an extreme degree. Other people may on occasion bitch about society but it doesn't generally make us plan massacres.
I go back and forth on it though. Im not entirely convinced either way. But almost all available evidence does point to him being a psychopath as we define it.
I have considered borderline personality disorder too.

I'll admit to a bit a bias when it comes to Eric. I have known people that I would consider to be like him, and their emotions are shallow. You want to believe there is more to them but there genuinely isn't. People tend to project their own feelings onto others and that's fine, it's perfectly normal. I also think that's what makes it so hard for some to understand him.

aubre wrote:

"Oh, the U.S. is psychopathic; they will kill anyone they see. It's irrational." One could argue that the U.S. is psychopathic. But I do see what you're saying. They attackedtheirsociety and the symbols of that society they felt wronged them the most. I'm not convinced they were targeting specific groups of people once the shooting started. I think to them, if someone was their wearing a white hat than great, if not oh well.
My point is that, it seems like a lot of excuses for a need that they didn't quite understand. He needed a justification for his sick feelings and his desire to murder people. I don't really see this whole thing as a war. Unless you consider it a war against humanity.
That's not to say I don't believe he was bullied because I do think he was. I also believe he would have been this way regardless.

It's a very complicated topic. I do not think NBK would have happened without bullying and the social hierarchy at CHS. Does that mean that I think Eric would have grown up to be a "productive" citizen. Hmmm. I see "cop-rapist" as a more likely scenario. But then you have to acknowledge that for many people this is a productive citizen if we take our rose-colored glasses off. That is to say there are plenty of rapist-cops in society that get away with they are doing and are considered good people.

So, yes, I agree there is a psychopathy at work here.

Sabratha wrote of Eric: "his core belief is that modern society is corrupt, opressess natural instincts and makes robots out of people"

Forgive me if I maintain that this is not only a rational response to society, but it is authentic both logically and emotionally. I would add that Sabratha's term "oppresses natural instincts" is absolutely correct in Eric's case, but it also indicates a much deeper conflict, one that Eric himself would have perhaps derisively dismissed or approached with slight hope and trepidation on a  good day. That conflict is between the exploitative war-based Oligarchy that is the progenitor of CHS (and all schools), the cult (ure) under which we live with its Social Darwinist and Klingon-without-honor type dehumanization -- and the human soul.

''It's a very complicated topic.'' Yep, that's what makes it so interesting and worth talking about.
"cop-rapist" This probably shouldn't have made me laugh but it did.
Sabratha wrote of Eric: "his core belief is that modern society is corrupt, opressess natural instincts and makes robots out of people" And I actually tend to agree with Eric on a lot of things. At least with our current way of living. I think he misses a huge point though, if our current society were to completely fall apart a new society would take it's place. This has been going on forever. It is part of our human nature to form into groups and create a society. It makes us more productive and helps protect us against enemy's. Is it corrupt, of course it is. It never will be perfect because there's always going to be people like Eric, who make it that way.
It is perhaps true that he saw beneath all the bullshit of America, realized it was a huge lie and this upset him deeply, maybe. But how was what he did a rational response to it? I would like to understand why you believe that, maybe I'm missing something.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Nice try lasttrain but it won't wash:

"I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't fucking say, "well thats your fault" because it isnt, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no dont let the weird looking Eric KID come along, ohh fucking nooo"

"I'll get revenge soon enough. fuckers shouldn't have ripped on me so much huh! HA! then again its human nature to do what you did... you know what maybe I just need to get laid."

"The fact that I have practically no selfesteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. therefore people make fun of me .. constantly..therefore I get no respect and therefore I get fucking PISSED"

"Right now I'm trying to get fucked and trying to finish off these time bombs. NBK came quick. why the fuck cant I get any? I mean, I'm nice and considerate and all that shit, but noooo"

That's just scratching the surface.

Gusto, your evidence is not good.

You're relying on the statements of an admitted liar who is trying to justify homicidal fantasies. I am giving you a list of dozens of different people whose separate testimonies all corroborate each other.

Which do you believe, the rantings of an admitted lair and homicidal lunatic, or the testimony of dozens of other people who were observers of the known liar?

lasttrain wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Nice try lasttrain but it won't wash:

"I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't fucking say, "well thats your fault" because it isnt, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no dont let the weird looking Eric KID come along, ohh fucking nooo"

"I'll get revenge soon enough. fuckers shouldn't have ripped on me so much huh! HA! then again its human nature to do what you did... you know what maybe I just need to get laid."

"The fact that I have practically no selfesteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. therefore people make fun of me .. constantly..therefore I get no respect and therefore I get fucking PISSED"

"Right now I'm trying to get fucked and trying to finish off these time bombs. NBK came quick. why the fuck cant I get any? I mean, I'm nice and considerate and all that shit, but noooo"

That's just scratching the surface.

Gusto, your evidence is not good.

You're relying on the statements of an admitted liar who is trying to justify homicidal fantasies. I am giving you a list of dozens of different people whose separate testimonies all corroborate each other.

Which do you believe, the rantings of an admitted lair and homicidal lunatic, or the testimony of dozens of other people who were observers of the known liar?

He wasn't lying in his journal. Why do people think this? His journal was the real deal.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

lol wrote:

Plus almost all the girls he had a date with never went back out with him again because he was strange, weird, non-talkative, and "dark".

Don't bother trying to reason with  lasttrain on subjects like these. While he can be informative on other topics like Dave Cullen, he (as well as Dave Cullen) believe in the ridiculous crap that Eric was the master mind, and Dylan was the follower, and he is a 100% supporter of Dave Cullen's book, and called it the greatest Columbine research book. That's all you need to know, lol.

Yeah, I'm getting that impression. I'll save my aching fingers next time and let someone else field the Cullen-spam.

If you look at my posts, you will see that everything I say is based off the 11k, not off of Cullen. I usually even give the exact page number of the 11k where I got the information, so you can go see it in context.

In the 11k it is overwhelming that Dylan was a follower, that Eric had lots of friends, that Eric got girls. It is not Cullen saying these things--it is most of the people who actually knew Eric and Dylan

aubre wrote:

He wasn't lying in his journal. Why do people think this? His journal was the real deal.

His journal is just self-pity. It's contradicted by the record of his actual life and what everyone who knew him said. Look at the last years of his life. Constant activities, work, work friends, video productions, dates with girls, bowling. He had a very active social life and he was lying when he said he didn't.

I can prove it to you in the 11k, where dozens of people back me up.

Do I need to post this again?

In the 11k and related documents there are ten different girls Eric is listed as dating. That is a lot for a high school student and no one has refuted this point.

Also in the 11K there are twenty-seven people listed as significant friends of Eric's. That is a huge number of friends for a high school student to have. And it doesn't even include work friends or people like Jessica Guertz, Katie Thompson, and Veronica Griffith, whom Eric took to lunch two weeks before attack (3131).

If you want to engage with my argument please address yourself to these two facts.

lasttrain wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Nice try lasttrain but it won't wash:

"I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't fucking say, "well thats your fault" because it isnt, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no dont let the weird looking Eric KID come along, ohh fucking nooo"

"I'll get revenge soon enough. fuckers shouldn't have ripped on me so much huh! HA! then again its human nature to do what you did... you know what maybe I just need to get laid."

"The fact that I have practically no selfesteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. therefore people make fun of me .. constantly..therefore I get no respect and therefore I get fucking PISSED"

"Right now I'm trying to get fucked and trying to finish off these time bombs. NBK came quick. why the fuck cant I get any? I mean, I'm nice and considerate and all that shit, but noooo"

That's just scratching the surface.

Gusto, your evidence is not good.

You're relying on the statements of an admitted liar who is trying to justify homicidal fantasies. I am giving you a list of dozens of different people whose separate testimonies all corroborate each other.

Which do you believe, the rantings of an admitted lair and homicidal lunatic, or the testimony of dozens of other people who were observers of the known liar?

Lastrain -- your argument here is moving toward an existential fallacy. I also think your intentions are not unbiased. However, I would say this: if Eric was so popular and psychopathic, why didn't he have a date for prom? Why did he cry on the BT video? Why did he apologize to those he loved? why is he being ignored and blown off by virtually everyone in the "Eric in Columbine" video.  Why did he trade Internet messages with a girl and tell his deepest fantasies which, by the way, were not homicidal but bucolic and nautical in nature?

And that is just scratching the surface.

aubre wrote:

It is perhaps true that he saw beneath all the bullshit of America, realized it was a huge lie and this upset him deeply, maybe. But how was what he did a rational response to it? I would like to understand why you believe that, maybe I'm missing something.

I am literally writing a book on this subject right now. But not just about Eric about Dylan, too. Not sure I can condense it down to a forum post -- yet.

This robust debate is the just the thing I need though -- thanks to everyone. I hope my assertions and assumptions continue to be challenged across the board.

"In the 11k and related documents there are ten different girls Eric is listed as dating. That is a lot for a high school student and no one has refuted this point."
This sounds to me like he asked a lot of girls out and a few gave in but it never seemed to go past a few dates there is a reason for this.
Also in the 11K there are twenty-seven people listed as significant friends of Eric's. That is a huge number of friends for a high school student to have. And it doesn't even include work friends or people like Jessica Guertz, Katie Thompson, and Veronica Griffith, whom Eric took to lunch two weeks before attack (3131).
He belonged on the outskirts of a group of people, these people were not all close personal friends with Eric. I doubt if very many even liked him.
I think he had some people at work that he talked to and some people he did video projects with. Outside of that I don't think he was invited to much else. I really doubt that Eric's phone was ringing off the hook with his 27 friends.

lasttrain wrote:

If you look at my posts, you will see that everything I say is based off the 11k, not off of Cullen.  I usually even give the exact page number of the 11k where I got the information, so you can go see it in context.

In the 11k it is overwhelming that Dylan was a follower, that Eric had lots of friends, that Eric got girls.  It is not Cullen saying these things--it is most of the people who actually knew Eric and Dylan

What do you mean by the phrase "got girls?" The boy died a virgin, lasttrain.

Eric had lots of friends. Really? Here is the list of phone #'s in his wallet when he died.

CN 2765 Female - knew Eric from School - Eric called her from time to time - just a friend - has not spent much time with him
CN 2769 Male - had pager # for 1.5 years - had no knowledge of ? or Eric
CN 2770 Joshua Uncapher
CN 2776 Kevin Albert Psychologist Colorado Family Center
CN 2783 & CN ? Duplicate
CN 2785 Alyssa Sechler
CN 2786 Attempted pager # for 3 days - no return calls
CN 2792 Blockbuster membership card issued to Kathy Harris
CN 2794 Phone # recently reissued to new subscribers
CN 2796 & CN ? “?” Littleton CO 80128 - already interviewed by Jackie Gee
CN 2798 [Jason Webb] English Teacher -  had Eric in his class '98 - provided home phone # at prom to assist transporting students too drunk to drive
CN 2802 Deborah Deanna Kennedy
CN 2808 & CN 2763 & CN 1088 Sasha Jacobs
CN 2811 Attempted pager # for 3 days - no return calls
CN 2815 & CN ? “?” Westminster CO 80030 - already interviewed
CN 2816 Karen Ann Schott 10-13-80
CN 2818 Upper Edge Security Center business card
CN 2819 2 Jeffco Public Library cards
CN 2820 AT&T phone card

You have got to be kidding.

Lastly, the evidence against the things you are asserting is out there, widely available. It's even available right here at the forum. The 11k isn't a Bible. If anything it's merely a reference point.

"Not sure I can condense it down to a forum post -- yet."

Understandable, but you did get me thinking, so thank you.

"I am literally writing a book on this subject right now."

I would definitely want to read it.

"I can prove it to you in the 11k"

I read the 11k, it doesn't prove what you're saying.

aubre wrote:

"Not sure I can condense it down to a forum post -- yet."

Understandable, but you did get me thinking, so thank you.

"I am literally writing a book on this subject right now."

I would definitely want to read it.

Thank you, aubre. PM me if you would like to be a test reader.

aubre wrote:

One could argue that the U.S. is psychopathic.

Indeed.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Whatever else one wants to say about Eric, I can't agree that he didn't have deep emotions. I would have to argue that he felt things very deeply and that his inability to manage or control his hate,hurt and anger was the beginning of his problems. JMO.

Not only are sensitive people more prone to getting bullied; they respond more deeply to it. The same was true for Dylan. They both started off as sensitive, nerdy dudes:

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aubre wrote:

I'll admit to a bit a bias when it comes to Eric. I have known people that I would consider to be like him, and their emotions are shallow. You want to believe there is more to them but there genuinely isn't. People tend to project their own feelings onto others and that's fine, it's perfectly normal. I also think that's what makes it so hard for some to understand him.

If you haven't read it yet, you might enjoy this thread:

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I think Eric was not entirely "Reb," so maybe not as shallow as he appears. CHS was a meat-grinder for self-esteem. All the TCM type people developed "splatterpunk" or death-centered personas as a way to protect themselves from what amounts to institutionalized abuse. As Chris Morris said:

“We were so far out from the normal circle.. and so diminished upon, that we, in a sense some of us thought death was the way out. It’s kind of a sad way to look at it, but some of them did. Because some of the people I knew felt that death was a way to escape from the world of the harassment and others of us took it as a way to cloak ourselves because it was kind of like a shadow you could hide in because people were afraid of death and people always are and we weren’t. We knew it would eventually come and we were okay with that. And since we took safety in it, it helped us to feel better about ourselves and have people leave us alone more.”

Under these personas: just scared human-beings; rationally so: they might be set on fire, or have their leg or arm broken by a passing jock who wanted to go "bowling" with them as the ball on a baby-oiled hall.

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aubre wrote:

What sticks in my mind is the fact that he tried to bomb the place. He goal in life was to be responsible for the deaths of hundreds of people. This is what he wanted his legacy to be.  

That's very true and I think when talking about Eric (and Dylan too btw) we always need to have this in mind - their goal was to kill a huge numebr of people with a bomb, most of the victims would be strangers they never talked to or connected with.

Sure, Dylan spared Savage once he had him in the crosshairs. But same Dylan never bothered to warn Savage before. If the bom,b blew up to its full potential, JKohn Savage would most likely eb dead and Dylan by all evidence wouldn't have shed a tear.

aubre wrote:

He really didn't have a rational reason for this. He wrote a lot about hating society as a whole and how it got rid of our natural instincts. I believe he wrote those things, because it was the only way he could rationalize his own depraved feelings.

I strongly disagree on this one. I'm sure Eric's dissatisfaction with society came first and evolved into homicidal fantasies. Eric really isn't the type to care what he writes or if people will respect what he writes. Still, if you ask me the only parts of his journal he cares a lot about and goes to great lenghts to make sure people udnerstanjd what he means - these are the rants about society. I'm sure he believed deeply in what he wrote there.

Just my 2 cents.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

aubre wrote:

You're right our culture is built on retribution and violence. His response would have been rational if he only went after the people who actually hurt him.

Everyone in the school, barring very few individuals, "actually hurt him."

No I strongly doubt this. Eric didn't know all these freshmen and sophomores down there and he by all evidence didn't even know all the seniors that well.

I do agree taht he treated them as collaterall damage, seen himself fighting a war against the world and modern society and was more than eager to see people die. I think there's a very good reason why he's the only school shooter who mentions the Murragh bombing.