Eric the cowering shrimp

Sabratha wrote:

No I strongly doubt this. Eric didn't know all these freshmen and sophomores down there and he by all evidence didn't even know all the seniors that well.

I do agree taht he treated them as collaterall damage, seen himself fighting a war against the world and modern society and was more than eager to see people die. I think there's a very good reason why he's the only school shooter who mentions the Murragh bombing.

Sabratha it is not necessary to know people personally to be hurt by them. You can also be hurt by watching others' victimization. You can be hurt by their successes. You can be hurt simply by their physical beauty or prowess at sports. You can be hurt by watching others become outcasts; and you can be hurt by watching adults in "charge" who do nothing to stop the cycle of abuse whether you know these authority figures by name or only by result.

I agree with the collateral damage point to some extent.

@ sabbratha - sorry, but - I don't get your" all Christianity - we-are-so-great-and-desperately-eager message".
i do not mean to be harming you - and never would, but - i'm thinkin'... whatever - rationally i would agree that homicide cannot be the answer.

however - I do agree with you, gustopoet - I really think the two of them would have been to be treated equally.
it's not a question of Eric says a, Dylan says b.

Dylan as a resident could do whatever he felt - he could - or maybe not (being sophisticated can rape down one's fate - I've heard so at least...).

and eric?
pressure, peers and brokenhome(-syndrome)?

don't you think it's a little bit of sunny-sidin' with "cool Dylan" nodding "good-be-bright" for Eric "the sadistic psychopath slurrin' down some bride maiden's biatch" ((no homo) - I ate too much tasty joey's pizza lately - sorry...)?

I guess not.
I'm afraid, TX people would at least let have him died - the others might have done like ordinary-gurrls-next-door-baabling - and what now?

it's a bit like (sorry for my hybris) - Brandon teena nowadays would kill mr roof and blow (up) mr breivik - yo.

don't believe a word - actualy that makes - yes: they died equally and others have stolen their graves - whether or not to follow them - produce even more copy "cattering chea-cheep-shemale-queereas" (no harming intended)

- or really honor them, their families - and the ones still being aive or dead - being haunted by memories like those - perhaps - perhaps - I guess, yo.
(or maybe just living out their suicidal dreams while phantasizin' 'bout power and damaged brains or brain damage - just like in KMFDM's "Krank" (thanks for the link given above by the way.), yo.

who shall be your next scape goat(y)?

but thanks or reading this message of mine, yo.

greetz
nightshiftstalker

"Why did he cry in the BT video"

Unfortunately we don't know the context in which this happened. It doesn't prove much of anything to me. He could have been crying because of his own impending death, which he was talking about.

guessing, discussing and speculating is anything the most of us here can do.

Nightshiftstalker wrote:

guessing, discussing and speculating is anything the most of us here can do.

I know that, it's why I said he could have been crying because of his own death. The basement tapes frustrate me.

aubre wrote:

"Why did he cry in the BT video"

Unfortunately we don't know the context in which this happened. It doesn't prove much of anything to me. He could have been crying because of his own impending death, which he was talking about.

Psychopaths don't experience emotions.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

aubre wrote:

"Why did he cry in the BT video"

Unfortunately we don't know the context in which this happened. It doesn't prove much of anything to me. He could have been crying because of his own impending death, which he was talking about.

Psychopaths don't experience emotions.

Eric was faking it ... you'd know that if you read Cullen.

Cullen knows all.

LPorter101 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

aubre wrote:

"Why did he cry in the BT video"

Unfortunately we don't know the context in which this happened. It doesn't prove much of anything to me. He could have been crying because of his own impending death, which he was talking about.

Psychopaths don't experience emotions.

Eric was faking it ... you'd know that if you read Cullen.

Cullen knows all.

He obviously wasn't faking. As I've said I'm not entirely convinced he was a psychopath. I do lean towards that though.

aubre wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

aubre wrote:

"Why did he cry in the BT video"

Unfortunately we don't know the context in which this happened. It doesn't prove much of anything to me. He could have been crying because of his own impending death, which he was talking about.

Psychopaths don't experience emotions.

Eric was faking it ... you'd know that if you read Cullen.

Cullen knows all.

He obviously wasn't faking. As I've said I'm not entirely convinced he was a psychopath. I do lean towards that though.

Cullen says he was faking ... Cullen knows everything.

Are you telling me that Cullen doesn't know everything? Because, if you are ... then I must put an end to your madness.

LPorter101 wrote:

aubre wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

aubre wrote:

"Why did he cry in the BT video"

Unfortunately we don't know the context in which this happened. It doesn't prove much of anything to me. He could have been crying because of his own impending death, which he was talking about.

Psychopaths don't experience emotions.

Eric was faking it ... you'd know that if you read Cullen.

Cullen knows all.

He obviously wasn't faking. As I've said I'm not entirely convinced he was a psychopath. I do lean towards that though.

Cullen says he was faking ... Cullen knows everything.

Are you telling me that Cullen doesn't know everything? Because, if you are ... then I must put an end to your madness.

Yes I'm telling you Cullen is a blatant liar. I think he knows it too. If he doesn't know that he lied about a lot of things, then he's also a moron and shouldn't be doing research for books.

aubre wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

aubre wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

aubre wrote:

"Why did he cry in the BT video"

Unfortunately we don't know the context in which this happened. It doesn't prove much of anything to me. He could have been crying because of his own impending death, which he was talking about.

Psychopaths don't experience emotions.

Eric was faking it ... you'd know that if you read Cullen.

Cullen knows all.

He obviously wasn't faking. As I've said I'm not entirely convinced he was a psychopath. I do lean towards that though.

Cullen says he was faking ... Cullen knows everything.

Are you telling me that Cullen doesn't know everything? Because, if you are ... then I must put an end to your madness.

 Yes I'm telling you Cullen is a blatant liar. I think he knows it too. If he doesn't know that he lied about a lot of things, then he's also a moron and shouldn't be doing research for books.

If you say so.

LPorter101 wrote:

aubre wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

aubre wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

aubre wrote:

"Why did he cry in the BT video"

Unfortunately we don't know the context in which this happened. It doesn't prove much of anything to me. He could have been crying because of his own impending death, which he was talking about.

Psychopaths don't experience emotions.

Eric was faking it ... you'd know that if you read Cullen.

Cullen knows all.

He obviously wasn't faking. As I've said I'm not entirely convinced he was a psychopath. I do lean towards that though.

Cullen says he was faking ... Cullen knows everything.

Are you telling me that Cullen doesn't know everything? Because, if you are ... then I must put an end to your madness.

 Yes I'm telling you Cullen is a blatant liar. I think he knows it too. If he doesn't know that he lied about a lot of things, then he's also a moron and shouldn't be doing research for books.

If you say so.

Sorry, I know how much you love Cullen, I'll lay off him for you.

LPorter101 wrote:

Cullen knows all.

Getting bored with the board LPorter?

I think I am going to send Cullen a thank-you card. All this time I thought the psychopaths in charge were the thing to worry about.  Now I know its virginal 18 year old boys! Bet that's an image that gets Cullen out of bed in the morning -- maybe back in at night, too!

With all due respect,its a bit patronizing of you to tell me that I'm projecting my feelings on to Eric and that's why I believe as I do.
Just because my view of Eric is different than yours doesn't mean its not valid.
I just don't see him or at least the majority of his being the way you and others do.

aubre wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

Whatever else one wants to say about Eric, I can't agree that he didn't have deep emotions. I would have to argue that he felt things very deeply and that his inability to manage or control his hate,hurt and anger was the beginning of his problems. JMO.

aubre wrote:

He may not have been born a psychopath but he might turned himself into one. He was definitely sadistic, without a doubt. So all he had to do was use his anger to get rid of any feelings of sympathy or empathy he might have had towards people. He didn't appear to have too many deep emotions. He was self-pitying, but that's just part of the narccesism. He hated people and society to an extreme degree. Other people may on occasion bitch about society but it doesn't generally make us plan massacres.
I go back and forth on it though. Im not entirely convinced either way. But almost all available evidence does point to him being a psychopath as we define it.
I have considered borderline personality disorder too.

I'll admit to a bit a bias when it comes to Eric. I have known people that I would consider to be like him, and their emotions are shallow. You want to believe there is more to them but there genuinely isn't. People tend to project their own feelings onto others and that's fine, it's perfectly normal. I also think that's what makes it so hard for some to understand him.

PaintItBlack wrote:

With all due respect,its a bit patronizing of you to tell me that I'm projecting my feelings on to Eric and that's why I believe as I do.
Just because my view of Eric is different than yours doesn't mean its not valid.
I just don't see him or at least the majority of his being the way you and others do.

aubre wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

Whatever else one wants to say about Eric, I can't agree that he didn't have deep emotions. I would have to argue that he felt things very deeply and that his inability to manage or control his hate,hurt and anger was the beginning of his problems. JMO.

aubre wrote:

He may not have been born a psychopath but he might turned himself into one. He was definitely sadistic, without a doubt. So all he had to do was use his anger to get rid of any feelings of sympathy or empathy he might have had towards people. He didn't appear to have too many deep emotions. He was self-pitying, but that's just part of the narccesism. He hated people and society to an extreme degree. Other people may on occasion bitch about society but it doesn't generally make us plan massacres.
I go back and forth on it though. Im not entirely convinced either way. But almost all available evidence does point to him being a psychopath as we define it.
I have considered borderline personality disorder too.

I'll admit to a bit a bias when it comes to Eric. I have known people that I would consider to be like him, and their emotions are shallow. You want to believe there is more to them but there genuinely isn't. People tend to project their own feelings onto others and that's fine, it's perfectly normal. I also think that's what makes it so hard for some to understand him.

Ok no problem didn't mean to make it seem like I was patronizing you.

I agree Gustopoet but everytime I point this out someone comes along and says "You're just projecting your own thoughts and feelings onto Eric and that's why you see him the way you do.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

Whatever else one wants to say about Eric, I can't agree that he didn't have deep emotions. I would have to argue that he felt things very deeply and that his inability to manage or control his hate,hurt and anger was the beginning of his problems. JMO.

Not only are sensitive people more prone to getting bullied; they respond more deeply to it. The same was true for Dylan. They both started off as sensitive, nerdy dudes:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

PaintItBlack wrote:

I agree Gustopoet but everytime I point this out someone comes along and says "You're just projecting your own thoughts and feelings onto Eric and that's why you see him the way you do.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

Whatever else one wants to say about Eric, I can't agree that he didn't have deep emotions. I would have to argue that he felt things very deeply and that his inability to manage or control his hate,hurt and anger was the beginning of his problems. JMO.

Not only are sensitive people more prone to getting bullied; they respond more deeply to it. The same was true for Dylan. They both started off as sensitive, nerdy dudes:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Probably shouldn't have said you're because I was making a generalization. I was definitely not trying to upset you.

No, it's the disinfo campaign being run by Cullen and people like lasttrain that is painting the boys as psychopaths. That picture of Eric is only 4 years before NBK. Gee, wonder what happened in those 4 years?!?

Musta been the Cini-Minis....

That's alright. I came off as grumpier than I really was.
Sorry about that.

aubre wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I agree Gustopoet but everytime I point this out someone comes along and says "You're just projecting your own thoughts and feelings onto Eric and that's why you see him the way you do.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

Whatever else one wants to say about Eric, I can't agree that he didn't have deep emotions. I would have to argue that he felt things very deeply and that his inability to manage or control his hate,hurt and anger was the beginning of his problems. JMO.

Not only are sensitive people more prone to getting bullied; they respond more deeply to it. The same was true for Dylan. They both started off as sensitive, nerdy dudes:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Probably shouldn't have said you're because I was making a generalization. I was definitely not trying to upset you.

PaintItBlack wrote:

That's alright. I came off as grumpier than I really was.
Sorry about that.

aubre wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I agree Gustopoet but everytime I point this out someone comes along and says "You're just projecting your own thoughts and feelings onto Eric and that's why you see him the way you do.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

Whatever else one wants to say about Eric, I can't agree that he didn't have deep emotions. I would have to argue that he felt things very deeply and that his inability to manage or control his hate,hurt and anger was the beginning of his problems. JMO.

Not only are sensitive people more prone to getting bullied; they respond more deeply to it. The same was true for Dylan. They both started off as sensitive, nerdy dudes:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Probably shouldn't have said you're because I was making a generalization. I was definitely not trying to upset you.

That's ok, reading my post now, I can see how it would sound that way. I wouldn't like someone invalidating what I believe either.

Inability to control one's anger may be a classic antisocial trait but then I figure that there must be killers out there who have trouble containing their anger who aren't psychopaths.
I know you will say that Eric was further along the spectrum than your average killer but to me this is another example of the difficulty of trying to diagnose someone who has died, although I agree with you that people will always attempt to diagnose deceased persons.

Sabratha wrote:

eli27 wrote:

I don't think he was a complete psychopath. There is no fine line that seperates people into non psychopaths and psychopaths. He had some tendencies, he had some issues, but he didn't tick every box.

True, but then again psychopaths that tick every box are a small minority amongst psychopaths. Most do not.

Langman makes a theory that psychopaths who go on a rampage are actually those psychopaths who while narcissistic and sadistic, actually have the least emotional detachment and rather rnormal emotional components in comparison with other psychopaths.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I would have to argue that he felt things very deeply and that his inability to manage or control his hate,hurt and anger was the beginning of his problems. JMO.

Inability to control one's anger is actually a classic antisocial trait.

aubre wrote:

He may not have been born a psychopath but he might turned himself into one. He was definitely sadistic, without a doubt. So all he had to do was use his anger to get rid of any feelings of sympathy or empathy he might have had towards people. He didn't appear to have too many deep emotions. He was self-pitying, but that's just part of the narccesism. He hated people and society to an extreme degree. Other people may on occasion bitch about society but it doesn't generally make us plan massacres.
I go back and forth on it though. Im not entirely convinced either way. But almost all available evidence does point to him being a psychopath as we define it.
I have considered borderline personality disorder too.

I think he was psychopathic in fact, which doesn't mean he didn't feel attached to his parents, his dog or that his friendship mwith Dylan was not geniuine. He was certainly grandiose, narcissistic, self-absorbed, had little empathy, killed without remorse, had issues with controlling his anger. He felt himself above laws and felt himself entitled to judge everyone else. He had fantasies centered on violence, rape and killing. He got a kick out of lying and decieving people. I also think he got a kick out of being in control.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

People always say Dylan=Suicidal; Eric=Homicidal, but in reality they were both equally suicidal and equally homicidal as well.

Yes they were, bot not to the same degree. Dylan mentioned suicide in his journals, severla times he wrote soemthing to the extent of: "This is thbe last entry I'm writing". Also during teh atatck people heard him shout: "Today I'm gonna die!"

For Eric suicide was less of an issue, rather a logical outcome of taking on the whole world (that's how he seen this).

I also think Eric had big reasons to feel angry. Bullying might have contributed to his anger and feeling like the whole world sucks, so did his arrest.

But his core belief is that modern society is corrupt, opressess natural instincts and makes robots out of people. If you don't take Eric's statements about society, schools etc seriously, then you will never understand Eric.

aubre wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

That's alright. I came off as grumpier than I really was.
Sorry about that.

aubre wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I agree Gustopoet but everytime I point this out someone comes along and says "You're just projecting your own thoughts and feelings onto Eric and that's why you see him the way you do.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

Whatever else one wants to say about Eric, I can't agree that he didn't have deep emotions. I would have to argue that he felt things very deeply and that his inability to manage or control his hate,hurt and anger was the beginning of his problems. JMO.

Not only are sensitive people more prone to getting bullied; they respond more deeply to it. The same was true for Dylan. They both started off as sensitive, nerdy dudes:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Probably shouldn't have said you're because I was making a generalization. I was definitely not trying to upset you.

That's ok, reading my post now, I can see how it would sound that way. I wouldn't like someone invalidating what I believe either.

I just thought I'd add, when I was saying people project their own feelings onto Eric, I was including myself as well. It really wasn't directed at any one person. I've known people that I feel are like him, so I know I have a tendency to judge based on that. I'm trying not to do that.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

No, it's the disinfo campaign being run by Cullen and people like lasttrain that is painting the boys as psychopaths. That picture of Eric is only 4 years before NBK. Gee, wonder what happened in those 4 years?!?

Musta been the Cini-Minis....

Cullen is a hack, and I would never base anything I believe on him. Not to mention he's Dylan's biggest closet fan. From some interview with Cullen he says this, as he gets a stupid grin on his face, "Dylan was a loving and sensitive boy" I doubt you can mention Dylan's name without this guy getting all giggly. Of course this is after he basically says Eric was the devil incarnate.

Actually, this is Cullen's kind of guy:
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Quote :

“They’re anti-everything,” said senior Brad Johnson, a strapping 6-foot-2-inch rugby player and tight end on the football team.

That's an unusually detailed description, isn't it? Let's see how he describes some of the other students he interviewed.

Quote :

“They set themselves completely apart,” said senior Melissa Snow. “They didn’t talk to anyone else. They had their own little world.”

So Melissa Snow is a "senior" ... but Brad Johnson is "a strapping 6-foot-2 rugby player and tight end on the football team." (He's a senior, too, but that's beside the point.)

So Cullen tells us about this guy's height and sums up his general level of physical attractiveness (strapping). And lets us know that he's a "tight end." Interesting.

How did Cullen find out this guy's height, anyway? Is Cullen 6'2" himself and found that he was staring directly into Brad's confident eyes? Did he ask? Was he guessing?

Cullen has indicated that guys like Brad are his kind of guy, at least as long as they're legal ... he has good taste, I guess. No doubt Brad did well with the ladies.

Then again, Cullen was not the only reporter who felt compelled to imply that Brad was a good-looking guy:
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Quote :

Columbine's male athletes, tall, muscular and radiating confidence and authority in their Abercrombie shirts and jeans, stood out in today's crowd. It was easy to imagine their inspiring envy among some of their less popular classmates.

''We'd be walking down the hall, and people would say, 'Stupid jocks,' '' said Brad Johnson, 18, a senior who played for the football and rugby teams. ''I guess it's because they weren't jocks.''

I'm guessing that Brad was one of the Abercrombie-wearing jocks who towered over his social lessers.

Actually, it turns out that Cullen felt sorry for the jocks ... so he wrote a book absolving them of any responsibility for what happened:

Quote :

Perhaps no group was more visibly shaken than Columbine High’s athletes, the “jocks” reportedly targeted by Harris and Klebold. A group of football players stood around uneasily Wednesday morning, discussing their anguish, confusion and guilt about the rumor that the rampage was meant for them.

Well, yeah, I can see how that might bother them.

One of Rocky Hoffschneider's best friends, a strapping jock wannabe who graduated in '98, felt so guilty that he became a drug addict:
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Quote :

“I’m feeling kind of guilty for the victims and the families,” said junior Landon Jones, who plays several sports, including football and basketball. “They might first start hating the suspects and then start hating us. Jocks already have the stereotype of being jerks.”

I wonder why they have that stereotype ... it must be some kind of mass delusion.

Landon is the guy I told you about in another thread - he wasn't too fond of Rocky:
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LPorter101 wrote:

Actually, it turns out that Cullen felt sorry for the jocks ... so he wrote a book absolving them of any responsibility for what happened:

Quote :

Perhaps no group was more visibly shaken than Columbine High’s athletes, the “jocks” reportedly targeted by Harris and Klebold. A group of football players stood around uneasily Wednesday morning, discussing their anguish, confusion and guilt about the rumor that the rampage was meant for them.

Well, yeah, I can see how that might bother them.

I hate to come off sounding so cynical all the time but I sincerely doubt those jocks felt any kind of guilt. Most of them anyway.

One of Rocky Hoffschneider's best friends, a strapping jock wannabe who graduated in '98, felt so guilty that he became a drug addict:
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He would have been a drug addict anyway, Columbine didn't have anything to do with it. Nice convenient excuse though.

Quote :

“I’m feeling kind of guilty for the victims and the families,” said junior Landon Jones, who plays several sports, including football and basketball. “They might first start hating the suspects and then start hating us. Jocks already have the stereotype of being jerks.”

I wonder why they have that stereotype ... it must be some kind of mass delusion.


Landon is the guy I told you about in another thread - he wasn't too fond of Rocky:
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Must be.

"Perhaps no group was more visibly shaken than Columbine High’s athletes, the “jocks” reportedly targeted by Harris and Klebold. A group of football players stood around uneasily Wednesday morning, discussing their anguish, confusion and guilt about the rumor that the rampage was meant for them."

Just who is the "psychopathic liar" here?

"Sure, we picked on them. What do you expect with kids who come to school with weird hairdos or horns on their hats? The whole school is disgusted with them. They're a bunch of homos...if you want to get rid of someone, usually you have to tease 'em. So the whole school would call them homos, and when they did something (we thought was) wrong, we would tell them, 'That's sick and you're wrong." -- Evan Todd

Gustopoet2 wrote:

"Perhaps no group was more visibly shaken than Columbine High’s athletes, the “jocks” reportedly targeted by Harris and Klebold. A group of football players stood around uneasily Wednesday morning, discussing their anguish, confusion and guilt about the rumor that the rampage was meant for them."

Just who is the "psychopathic liar" here?

"Sure, we picked on them. What do you expect with kids who come to school with weird hairdos or horns on their hats? The whole school is disgusted with them. They're a bunch of homos...if you want to get rid of someone, usually you have to tease 'em. So the whole school would call them homos, and when they did something (we thought was) wrong, we would tell them, 'That's sick and you're wrong." -- Evan Todd

That's what I was trying to say. I'm using this on mobile so it's a pain in the ass. But I have a hard time believing they felt guilty.

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Quote :

“They’re anti-everything,” said senior Brad Johnson, a strapping 6-foot-2-inch rugby player and tight end on the football team.

That's an unusually detailed description, isn't it? Let's see how he describes some of the other students he interviewed.

Quote :

“They set themselves completely apart,” said senior Melissa Snow. “They didn’t talk to anyone else. They had their own little world.”

So Melissa Snow is a "senior" ... but Brad Johnson is "a strapping 6-foot-2 rugby player and tight end on the football team." (He's a senior, too, but that's beside the point.)

So Cullen tells us about this guy's height and sums up his general level of physical attractiveness (strapping). And lets us know that he's a "tight end." Interesting.

How did Cullen find out this guy's height, anyway? Is Cullen 6'2" himself and found that he was staring directly into Brad's confident eyes? Did he ask? Was he guessing?

Cullen has indicated that guys like Brad are his kind of guy, at least as long as they're legal ... he has good taste, I guess. No doubt Brad did well with the ladies.

Then again, Cullen was not the only reporter who felt compelled to imply that Brad was a good-looking guy:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Quote :

Columbine's male athletes, tall, muscular and radiating confidence and authority in their Abercrombie shirts and jeans, stood out in today's crowd. It was easy to imagine their inspiring envy among some of their less popular classmates.

''We'd be walking down the hall, and people would say, 'Stupid jocks,' '' said Brad Johnson, 18, a senior who played for the football and rugby teams. ''I guess it's because they weren't jocks.''

I'm guessing that Brad was one of the Abercrombie-wearing jocks who towered over his social lessers.[/quote]

Could be, although I still think he has a thing for Dylan. I could care less if he does. But he shouldn't have let that influence what he wrote in his book and I think it did. I mean he couldn't even say Dylan's name when he's talking about him blowing a kids face off with a damn shot gun. He skips the entire library massacre because if he wrote about he could no longer portray Dylan as the follower who quote; "who just wanted to love the world but felt the world wasn't loving him back". Might not be verbatim but who cares it's Cullen. Sorry I just got through watching an interview with him. I have no idea why I did that to myself, it just got me feeling frustrated.

aubre wrote:

That's what I was trying to say. I'm using this on mobile so it's a pain in the ass. But I have a hard time believing they felt guilty.

Yeah, I hadn't seen that particular Cullen gem previously -- I wasn't sending anything your way, dude.

LPorter101 wrote:

Quote :

“They’re anti-everything,” said senior Brad Johnson, a strapping 6-foot-2-inch rugby player and tight end on the football team.

That's an unusually detailed description, isn't it? Let's see how he describes some of the other students he interviewed.

Quote :

“They set themselves completely apart,” said senior Melissa Snow. “They didn’t talk to anyone else. They had their own little world.”

So Melissa Snow is a "senior" ... but Brad Johnson is "a strapping 6-foot-2 rugby player and tight end on the football team." (He's a senior, too, but that's beside the point.)

So Cullen tells us about this guy's height and sums up his general level of physical attractiveness (strapping). And lets us know that he's a "tight end." Interesting.

How did Cullen find out this guy's height, anyway? Is Cullen 6'2" himself and found that he was staring directly into Brad's confident eyes? Did he ask? Was he guessing?

Cullen has indicated that guys like Brad are his kind of guy, at least as long as they're legal ... he has good taste, I guess. No doubt Brad did well with the ladies.

Lol. You would be the one to notice this. It's is funny though how he has such a detailed description on the jock and the girl is just 'a senior'.

lasttrain wrote:

 It's contradicted by the record of his actual life and what everyone who knew him said.  Look at the last years of his life.  Constant activities, work, work friends, video productions, dates with girls, bowling.  He had a very active social life and he was lying when he said he didn't.

Lasttrain: Do you know why Eric and Dylan were work, work, working all the time? To get the money to carry out NBK. Not to buy cd's and concert tickets and kegs of beer. They didn't have social lives that's why they could work all the time.

Lasttrain: By "video productions" are  you referring to Radioactive Clothing ? That is basically Eric and Dylan playing "army" with two or three of their other geek buddies. Or Car Wash --  spending the afternoon dumping milk and eggs over a stolen bicycle? Or Hitmen for Hire trying to make a film about shooting a jock-bully? Yes, these are the activities of the jet set at Columbine High School.

Or maybe by "a very active social life" you mean lighting off fireworks and building pipe-bombs or breaking into a van. Or vandalizing neighborhood houses. Or was it sitting night after night on a computer making Doom wads or playing Doom with Dylan that earned Eric his enviable social status.

You, sir, have taken a poorly reasoned premise and proceeded with frenzy in the wrong direction.

I know: "it's in the 11k."

So are multiple witnesses saying there were more than two shooters and that Joe Stair was there gunning people down.

aubre wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

aubre wrote:

"Why did he cry in the BT video"

Unfortunately we don't know the context in which this happened. It doesn't prove much of anything to me. He could have been crying because of his own impending death, which he was talking about.

Psychopaths don't experience emotions.

Eric was faking it ... you'd know that if you read Cullen.

Cullen knows all.

He obviously wasn't faking. As I've said I'm not entirely convinced he was a psychopath. I do lean towards that though.

Haven't seen the video, so I will refrain from attempting to analyze this until I do.

I just want to say that we shouldn't brush off the concept of someone pretending to be crying (for dramatic effect or other reasons). I've faked crying on more than one occassion in my life.

Secondly, Eric was strongly narcissist and self-pity, collecting a list of injustices done to you by everyone, etc are all pretty classic narcissistic behaviors.

Oh and don't get stuck on the stereotypical "Hannibal Lecter" posychopath image, cause its not real.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Lasttrain: Do you know why Eric and Dylan were work, work, working all the time? To get the money to carry out NBK. Not to buy cd's and concert tickets and kegs of beer. They didn't have social lives that's why they could work all the time.

I think we should avoid both stupid extremes here. Sure, Dylan and Eric were not the homecoming kings and people who just spend all their times at parties. Sure, they were not in the in-crowd, they were hanging out with geeks, "{dark kids", punks like Brown etc.

But they also are far away from being total loners like Cho for example.

They had friends who they hanged out with. Firs and foremost they had each other, that's one thing.

Dylan was friends with several people, Zach, Nate, his fantasy league people etc. He was friends with Robyn to the point of her willing to buy guns for them. Eric was friends with Morris and Heins and to a certain period with Brooks. He hanged out with them and Dylan, smoked weed, drank, vandalized homes, set off fireworks, played roleplaying games. He had friends who even tried to set him up with dates. Eric even brought some of his acquintances and friends and convinced them to work at blackjack for a time - that's not a feat a nobody-loner would do.

I can say when I look at their HS life, it doesn't really seem all that different from my own. And I'm pretty sure E&D had more friends in HS than some memebrs of this forum did, or some loners I know.

aubre wrote:

Imo I think the few dates Eric did get were pity dates.

Yes, I totally agree.

Let's all keep in mind that it's not the raw (absolute) number of dates that matters, but rather a combination of 1) the success/rejection rate and 2) the "quality"/social status of the women dated.

If you ask 100 women you'll probably manage to get at least 5 dates just by being at the right place at the right time and/or randomly hitting sensitive points with some of them with your approach style without even knowing it, regardless of who you are -- you could be the worst loser possible and still likely get a few.

Needless to say, the conclusion "He got several dates! What a ladies' man!" would be completely inappropriate in that case.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

aubre wrote:

You're right our culture is built on retribution and violence. His response would have been rational if he only went after the people who actually hurt him.

Everyone in the school, barring very few individuals, "actually hurt him." The school was a symbol for the larger bullying culture. As I have been suggesting at great length in other threads, the boys did discriminate about who they killed and they showed a clear interest in striking at the totems of the system. If the U.S. bombs an Afghan village and hits 1 terrorist and ten "collateral damage targets"  -- which are usually babies or peaceful families -- the default position is not: "Oh, the U.S. is psychopathic; they will kill anyone they see. It's irrational."

IMO, Columbine was an act of domestic terrorism; an act of war. So if you (not you personally obviously) are going to call war "rational" under any circumstance, then I think it applies here, too.

Absolutely agree with you on that one (as we already discussed)... and I'd add that even inanimate school property was often a vengeance target for them during the rampage, deserving of their pent-up wrath, in their minds -- they hated the entire school, barring a few people, even the school itself, physically.

"I destroy what I hate", I seem to recall that quote from Eric -- IIRC it's kind of a recurrent theme in his writings.

aubre wrote:

He belonged on the outskirts of a group of people, these people were not all close personal friends with Eric. I doubt if very many even liked him.
I think he had some people at work that he talked to and some people he did video projects with. Outside of that I don't think he was invited to much else. I really doubt that Eric's phone was ringing off the hook with his 27 friends.

Yep, exactly. How many of those 27 would really qualify as friends? i.e. people you often see outside school/work, people who call you, etc.

Otherwise, it's more like acquaintances, not true "friends".



The Eric of today would probably have officially over 50 "documented" friends....... on Facebook.

lio45 wrote:

The Eric of today would probably have officially over 50 "documented" friends....... on Facebook.

Yep. The "the boys were popular" crowd is really straining credulity here. Not only were they outcasts; they were outcasts in a region of America were being trendy and popular is even more important than it is in most other places due to the idea most Americans have that being "wealthy" means you should be popular and happy, no matter what.

***

Sab said: "But they also are far away from being total loners like Cho for example."

***

That's right; they weren't like Cho -- at all. They were not spree shooters, either.

***

"I can say when I look at their HS life, it doesn't really seem all that different from my own."

***

I'm sorry but that is an erroneous argument. I would also respectfully add that, from reading your posts, I am not sure you have a very good understanding of what their High School was like at all, particularly in regard to cliques and socializing.

"They were the bottom two kids in the entire school. Not just the Senior Class. The entire school. They were two uncoolest kids." -- Brooks Brown.





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There are a lot of things in the 11k that were taken as fact at the time, but have been proven false over time. The perception that Eric had lots of friends may be false due to the numerous claims that he tended to sort of be on the outside orbit of his social circles. Tim Kass' book states that lots of folks claimed that Eric had some dispute or grudge against most of his former friends.

it's still hard to make a full jump to the fact that he was a total loner though. If he was going on numerous dates, that seems to speak toward a certain level of confidence. Even if these were only one time events with each girl.

I'm not a profiler or psychoanalyst, but I do know that mental illness isn't a partitioned, cut and dry thing. Some folks who have sociopathic tendencies also hold long lasting, meaningful relationships. Some cold blooded killers hate the human race, but have a love of household pets and care for them in earnest.

It is possible that Eric had a cocktail of symptoms that were brought on by, age, gender, biochemistry and specifically bullying. The symptoms of psychopathy may have emerged, but only to some degree. The fact that he cried in a candid video shows that he was emotionally conflicted with his plan, yet it was something that had to be done. This attitude, as well as the planning and organization speaks to symptoms of obsessive or compulsive tendencies.

TL;DR, I think that there was a mix of things that led to the shooting. He wasn't a total outcast, but he for sure wasn't the ladies man that Cullen makes him out to be.

It is possible that Eric had a cocktail of symptoms that were brought on by, age, gender, biochemistry and specifically bullying. The symptoms of psychopathy may have emerged, but only to some degree. The fact that he cried in a candid video shows that he was emotionally conflicted with his plan, yet it was something that had to be done. This attitude, as well as the planning and organization speaks to symptoms of obsessive or compulsive tendencies.

***

Eloquently stated.

Thanks!

lio45 wrote:

Absolutely agree with you on that one (as we already discussed)... and I'd add that even inanimate school property was often a vengeance target for them during the rampage, deserving of their pent-up wrath, in their minds -- they hated the entire school, barring a few people, even the school itself, physically.

Yeah. I was driving that point home in the "Did They Know Who They Killed?" thread. When you factor in the property damage and take a close look at the victim list, they weren't acting randomly at all.  

You could also look at it this way: the last 3 things they tried to do before they died was let off the bombs, shoot up the school, and kill cops. If they were so bloodthirsty and crazy, why the hell would they try to blow up the cafeteria and library after everyone had left? If they wanted to kill more people and were just psychos looking for a high body count they would have went into one of the classrooms and just started blazing away. You could argue that they were having second thoughts about killing people up close or those they made eye-contact with etc, but this really works against the "psycho" argument because psychopaths don't have remorse or pity or compassion or conscience.

Eric's journal is filled with emotion, so is Dylan's. Eric's creative writing is filled with emotion; so is Dylan's. Eric's tone and demeanor in the BT is emotional; so is Dylan's. In every surviving clip we have of them they display a normal, healthy range of emotions from "playing guns" and making jokes to being pissed-off or holding grudges. They both expressed hope: Dylan that he would find a girl to love; Eric that his Doom wads would be remembered and enjoyed by others. Eric said he loved his parents. Dylan said he was filled with love.

True psychopaths do not experience love or hope or laughter or anger. They are imitators of these responses.

I am not saying that the boys were not victims of mental illness. The United States has the highest rate of clinical depression in the entire world; it also has the highest percentage of incarceration; the highest level of reported "dissatisfaction" with life and the highest number of guns per capita.

I have rarely known a teenager who did not experience mood swings. I have not known a single individual for whom "revenge" was not a driving purpose in their life at some point. For many, it is the main reason they get out of bed every day even if it is just to correct some numb-skull on the Internet.

So are all the Internet "swatters" also psychopaths?

How about the Postal workers:

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How about battered wives or children who strike back? How about minorities who try to attack the cops?

It's easier to write off two loser High School kids as "psychos" than to deal with the dehumanizing impact of our entire culture. If you ask me, people like Cullen are still bullying the boys. Using them as scapegoats and trying to sweep everything under the rug so we can all go on making money and joining "cliques" if we are "lucky" enough to be invited to the country club.

The PTB use violence and intimidation to make this a reality, but anyone who tries to invert the system through violence and intimidation is a "psycho."

Sometimes people wind up deciding that being a "drone" for the rest of their life is less important than giving the system a good kick in the face.

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I think you made a lot of good points. There is a larger, overarching problem with society and violence that seems to be concentrated and personified in American high schools. I can't speak for other countries, but I can say that America raises children to be like Spartans. We tend to resort to violence fairly quick. It's visible in our culture.

There have been cases where toddlers, with no exposure to guns or violent television or input, will shape a gun out of their morning toast. It seems at that point that violence has transported from the learned act to the instinctual act. Birds build nests, we build bombs. It's part of who we are now...

Even Eric named his shotgun "Arlene" after the gun from DOOM. He and Dylan were victims of this environment, and the shooting/bombing was the end product when they felt they had no other way to process it.

Sabratha wrote:

aubre wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

aubre wrote:

"Why did he cry in the BT video"

Unfortunately we don't know the context in which this happened. It doesn't prove much of anything to me. He could have been crying because of his own impending death, which he was talking about.

Psychopaths don't experience emotions.

Eric was faking it ... you'd know that if you read Cullen.

Cullen knows all.

He obviously wasn't faking. As I've said I'm not entirely convinced he was a psychopath. I do lean towards that though.

Haven't seen the video, so I will refrain from attempting to analyze this until I do.

I just want to say that we shouldn't brush off the concept of someone pretending to be crying (for dramatic effect or other reasons). I've faked crying on more than one occassion in my life.

Secondly, Eric was strongly narcissist and self-pity, collecting a list of injustices done to you by everyone, etc are all pretty classic narcissistic behaviors.

Oh and don't get stuck on the stereotypical "Hannibal Lecter" posychopath image, cause its not real.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Lasttrain: Do you know why Eric and Dylan were work, work, working all the time? To get the money to carry out NBK. Not to buy cd's and concert tickets and kegs of beer. They didn't have social lives that's why they could work all the time.

I think we should avoid both stupid extremes here. Sure, Dylan and Eric were not the homecoming kings and people who just spend all their times at parties. Sure, they were not in the in-crowd, they were hanging out with geeks, "{dark kids", punks like Brown etc.

But they also are far away from being total loners like Cho for example.

They had friends who they hanged out with. Firs and foremost they had each other, that's one thing.

Dylan was friends with several people, Zach, Nate, his fantasy league people etc. He was friends with Robyn to the point of her willing to buy guns for them. Eric was friends with Morris and Heins and to a certain  period with Brooks. He hanged out with them and Dylan, smoked weed, drank, vandalized homes, set off fireworks, played roleplaying games. He had friends who even tried to set him up with dates. Eric even brought some of his acquintances and friends and convinced them to work at blackjack for a time - that's not a feat a nobody-loner would do.

I can say when I look at their HS life, it doesn't really seem all that different from my own. And I'm pretty sure E&D had more friends in HS than some memebrs of this forum did, or some loners I know.

I don't like to speculate on the BT either but instinct tells me he wasn't faking. He had no reason in the given situation to fake crying, it served no purpose. It probably surprised him and he quickly turned the camera off. Now I know that's a huge speculation on my part, but Eric wanted nothing if not to appear tough.

I'm not basing my opinion of Eric being a psychopath on a Hollywood stereotype. I think Eric proved himself to be a psychopath by his actions, you know, that time when he shot kids in the face and laughed. I trying to see if their lives before hand support this diagnoses. Although, I think Dylan had some kind of psychosis. I'd be willing to bet that he would have been a full blown schizophrenic by his early 20'.

radaddio wrote:

There are a lot of things in the 11k that were taken as fact at the time, but have been proven false over time. The perception that Eric had lots of friends may be false due to the numerous claims that he tended to sort of be on the outside orbit of his social circles. Tim Kass' book states that lots of folks claimed that Eric had some dispute or grudge against most of his former friends.

it's still hard to make a full jump to the fact that he was a total loner though. If he was going on numerous dates, that seems to speak toward a certain level of confidence. Even if these were only one time events with each girl.

I'm not a profiler or psychoanalyst, but I do know that mental illness isn't a partitioned, cut and dry thing. Some folks who have sociopathic tendencies also hold long lasting, meaningful relationships. Some cold blooded killers hate the human race, but have a love of household pets and care for them in earnest.

It is possible that Eric had a cocktail of symptoms that were brought on by, age, gender, biochemistry and specifically bullying. The symptoms of psychopathy may have emerged, but only to some degree. The fact that he cried in a candid video shows that he was emotionally conflicted with his plan, yet it was something that had to be done. This attitude, as well as the planning and organization speaks to symptoms of obsessive or compulsive tendencies.

TL;DR, I think that there was a mix of things that led to the shooting. He wasn't a total outcast, but he for sure wasn't the ladies man that Cullen makes him out to be.

Yes, Eric was the outsider of the outsiders. I think he was extremely offended when people talked about him behind his back and that's where a lot of the disputes rise from. He said in his diary, not a direct quote, "people constantly make fun of me, sometimes to my face".

radaddio wrote:

I think you made a lot of good points. There is a larger, overarching problem with society and violence that seems to be concentrated and personified in American high schools. I can't speak for other countries, but I can say that America raises children to be like Spartans. We tend to resort to violence fairly quick. It's visible in our culture.

There have been cases where toddlers, with no exposure to guns or violent television or input, will shape a gun out of their morning toast. It seems at that point that violence has transported from the learned act to the instinctual act. Birds build nests, we build bombs. It's part of who we are now...

Even Eric named his shotgun "Arlene" after the gun from DOOM. He and Dylan were victims of this environment, and the shooting/bombing was the end product when they felt they had no other way to process it.

Exactly. And don't forget the fear-factor (or factories) that drive American cult(ure). Look at Bowling for Columbine. America is a fear-driven, materialistic society. Being in a state of anxiety is pretty much normal for everyone here. That's how they keep the capitalist machine going by telling everyone what they lack and who and what is out to get them.  

Arlene was a projection of what Jung would've called Eric's Anima (Dylan's target for projection was Marla Foust). Anima is another word for "soul." When the Anima is not integrated into the individuation process, she becomes a succubus who either reduces men to "couch potatoes" full of empty longing and envy, or she wreaks a destructive Kali-like havoc on those in the immediate vicinity.  

We're Spartan in that we are war-like and hierarchical, but unlike the Spartans, we are also very based in the acquisition of things and so-called "creature comforts" so the Spartan culture retains only the brutal Social Darwinist capacity without revealing any self-reliance or honor.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

radaddio wrote:

I think you made a lot of good points. There is a larger, overarching problem with society and violence that seems to be concentrated and personified in American high schools. I can't speak for other countries, but I can say that America raises children to be like Spartans. We tend to resort to violence fairly quick. It's visible in our culture.

There have been cases where toddlers, with no exposure to guns or violent television or input, will shape a gun out of their morning toast. It seems at that point that violence has transported from the learned act to the instinctual act. Birds build nests, we build bombs. It's part of who we are now...

Even Eric named his shotgun "Arlene" after the gun from DOOM. He and Dylan were victims of this environment, and the shooting/bombing was the end product when they felt they had no other way to process it.

Exactly. And don't forget the fear-factor (or factories) that drive American cult(ure). Look at Bowling for Columbine. America is a fear-driven, materialistic society. Being in a state of anxiety is pretty much normal for everyone here. That's how they keep the capitalist machine going by telling everyone what they lack and who and what is out to get them.  

Arlene was a projection of what Jung would've called Eric's Anima (Dylan's target for projection was Marla Foust). Anima is another word for "soul." When the Anima is not integrated into the individuation process, she becomes a succubus who either reduces men to "couch potatoes" full of empty longing and envy, or she wreaks a destructive Kali-like havoc on those in the immediate vicinity.  

We're Spartan in that we are war-like and hierarchical, but unlike the Spartans, we are also very based in the acquisition of things and so-called "creature comforts" so the Spartan culture retains only the brutal Social Darwinist capacity without revealing any self-reliance or honor.

Not to mention being fed the lie that we can be anything we set our minds to. So if you can't play sports or you don't make a million dollars by 20, it's a lack of will and character on your part.

Quote :

Exactly. And don't forget the fear-factor (or factories) that drive American cult(ure). Look at Bowling for Columbine. America is a fear-driven, materialistic society. Being in a state of anxiety is pretty much normal for everyone here. That's how they keep the capitalist machine going by telling everyone what they lack and who and what is out to get them.

Not to get too off-topic ... but doesn't every culture have its pressures?

There are many bad things about America, but let's not forget that we have social pressures that few other advanced countries have. We have far more people, and far more diversity, than places like Sweden. Diversity always creates social strife - when you have a society built upon a foundation of secular atheism and import a bunch of folks who subscribe to radical Islam, you're going to have problems, as the Swedes are now finding out.

Europeans are far more judgmental about things like physical appearance. The United States is the best place in the world to be fat, or ugly, or mentally retarded. Yes, fat and ugly people are treated badly everywhere, but in many European countries, they will not even pretend to be polite - they'll stare at you, point at you, and make comments about you within earshot. (Yes, there are Americans who will do the same thing, but it is frowned upon.) There is no "culture of niceness" - they don't do that.

I've heard people from countries like Holland say things, "Ah, you Americans are so thin-skinned - you always have to lie all the time. Your friendliness is skin-deep." But at least we make the effort. And those thick-skinned Dutchmen don't respond very kindly if you try to throw a little bit of their "honesty" back at them.

Yes, there are a lot of assholes in the U.S., but there are a lot of genuinely nice people, as well. If you're so inclined, you can strike up a friendly conversation with a stranger while you're, say, waiting in line at a supermarket. (This is not true everywhere in the U.S. - there are places where folks are at least as uppity and standoffish as the worst Europeans.)

I haven't lived abroad, but I've known enough Americans who have, and I've known enough foreigners who've come over here, to have an idea that the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence (or the pond).

LPorter101 wrote:

Quote :

Exactly. And don't forget the fear-factor (or factories) that drive American cult(ure). Look at Bowling for Columbine. America is a fear-driven, materialistic society. Being in a state of anxiety is pretty much normal for everyone here. That's how they keep the capitalist machine going by telling everyone what they lack and who and what is out to get them.

Not to get too off-topic ... but doesn't every culture have its pressures?

There are many bad things about America, but let's not forget that we have social pressures that few other advanced countries have. We have far more people, and far more diversity, than places like Sweden. Diversity always creates social strife - when you have a society built upon a foundation of secular atheism and import a bunch of folks who subscribe to radical Islam, you're going to have problems, as the Swedes are now finding out.

Europeans are far more judgmental about things like physical appearance. The United States is the best place in the world to be fat, or ugly, or mentally retarded. Yes, fat and ugly people are treated badly everywhere, but in many European countries, they will not even pretend to be polite - they'll stare at you, point at you, and make comments about you within earshot. (Yes, there are Americans who will do the same thing, but it is frowned upon.) There is no "culture of niceness" - they don't do that.

I've heard people from countries like Holland say things, "Ah, you Americans are so thin-skinned - you always have to lie all the time. Your friendliness is skin-deep." But at least we make the effort. And those thick-skinned Dutchmen don't respond very kindly if you try to throw a little bit of their "honesty" back at them.

Yes, there are a lot of assholes in the U.S., but there are a lot of genuinely nice people, as well. If you're so inclined, you can strike up a friendly conversation with a stranger while you're, say, waiting in line at a supermarket. (This is not true everywhere in the U.S. - there are places where folks are at least as uppity and standoffish as the worst Europeans.)

I haven't lived abroad, but I've known enough Americans who have, and I've known enough foreigners who've come over here, to have an idea that the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence (or the pond).

Those are very interesting, anecdotal points. However, Columbine happened in America. I see it as a quintessentially "All American" phenomenon personally. I'm not sure cross-cultural comparison is all that applicable here. Also, it is a global system of corporate fascism and it is stoking terrorist responses in most other cultures as well.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Quote :

Exactly. And don't forget the fear-factor (or factories) that drive American cult(ure). Look at Bowling for Columbine. America is a fear-driven, materialistic society. Being in a state of anxiety is pretty much normal for everyone here. That's how they keep the capitalist machine going by telling everyone what they lack and who and what is out to get them.

Not to get too off-topic ... but doesn't every culture have its pressures?

There are many bad things about America, but let's not forget that we have social pressures that few other advanced countries have. We have far more people, and far more diversity, than places like Sweden. Diversity always creates social strife - when you have a society built upon a foundation of secular atheism and import a bunch of folks who subscribe to radical Islam, you're going to have problems, as the Swedes are now finding out.

Europeans are far more judgmental about things like physical appearance. The United States is the best place in the world to be fat, or ugly, or mentally retarded. Yes, fat and ugly people are treated badly everywhere, but in many European countries, they will not even pretend to be polite - they'll stare at you, point at you, and make comments about you within earshot. (Yes, there are Americans who will do the same thing, but it is frowned upon.) There is no "culture of niceness" - they don't do that.

I've heard people from countries like Holland say things, "Ah, you Americans are so thin-skinned - you always have to lie all the time. Your friendliness is skin-deep." But at least we make the effort. And those thick-skinned Dutchmen don't respond very kindly if you try to throw a little bit of their "honesty" back at them.

Yes, there are a lot of assholes in the U.S., but there are a lot of genuinely nice people, as well. If you're so inclined, you can strike up a friendly conversation with a stranger while you're, say, waiting in line at a supermarket. (This is not true everywhere in the U.S. - there are places where folks are at least as uppity and standoffish as the worst Europeans.)

I haven't lived abroad, but I've known enough Americans who have, and I've known enough foreigners who've come over here, to have an idea that the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence (or the pond).

Those are very interesting, anecdotal points. However, Columbine happened in America. I see it as a quintessentially "All American" phenomenon personally. I'm not sure cross-cultural comparison is all that applicable here. Also, it is a global system of corporate fascism and it is stoking terrorist responses in most every other culture as well.

But were Eric and Dylan not among the winners, at least globally? They were middle-class white folks in America.

Then again, psychologists always talk about relative deprivation - you compare yourself to those around you. If you make $10 million a year, you don't say, "I'm one of the richest people in the world!" - even though you are, in both absolute and relative terms - you say, "I'm poorer than guys who make $20 million a year."

Eric and Dylan needed to get out more ... to see more of the world as it really was.

I didn't realize how (relatively) privileged I was as a kid until, one time when I was about 14, I took a weekend trip with my grandmother, my aunt, my uncle, my cousin, and one of my cousin's friends.

(My cousin lived and went to school in a more working-class area than I did, so she knew more poor kids than I did. My high school was like Columbine - upper-middle-class, with lots of "rich kids" walking around. That school was near my grandmother's house. The school that was nearer to my mother's house was more middle-middle-class.)

We stayed in a Holiday Inn-type of place that was being renovated, so the air conditioning was spotty and the insulation was exposed in the hallway. As we walked to the room, I remember thinking, "Geez, this place is a real dump!" (I was nice enough not to say that out loud.) Keep in mind that, by that time, I'd stayed in a couple of really nice hotels in places like New York and Washington.

When we woke up in the morning, my cousin's friend started making the bed.

"What are you doing?" I asked.

"Well, who's going to make the bed if we don't?" she asked.

"The maid," I said.

Her eyes widened a bit ... and she said, "Wow, you mean they actually make the bed for you? That's great!"

I had been staying in hotels for years ... never imagined that someone would not know that hotels have maids. Like I said, I was no rich kid, but I was more privileged than I knew.

I was also floored when someone once said to me in high school, "Someone like you can't possibly understand what it's like to be truly at the bottom."

"I know what it's like!" I said. "I don't even have a car!"

"I don't even have a family," the other guy said. "I've lived all my life in foster homes."

So, yeah, there's always someone who has it worse than you do.

LPorter -- it's not about what materialism can do -- it's about what it can't do. It's also about what is sacrificed in order to perpetuate a materialistic society that tramples over the so-called "weak" and uses violence and murder to create a global caste system based on racism, fear, and the specious idea of economic and political "natural selection."

There are no circumstances under which it is justifiable to exploit others for material gain. There are no circumstances under which it is justifiable to bully people to the brink of insanity in order to coerce them into accepting their brainwashing without protest.

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."  Matthew 25:40 -- I am not a Christian btw.

Race and some form of Social Darwinism are typically invoked to justify class "bullying" and the mass-exploitation of labor and the stealing of natural resources as well as the perpetuation of war and pollution. Patriotism is the next canard trotted out on these grounds. "We" are luckier, better, smarter, more highly evolved than "them." But every country says that to its population --even Senegal. The global oligarchy needs us to be trapped in the same hierarchy as was present in CHS in microcosm or we might stop sending our kids to murder and die in their wars and ruining our bodies minds and souls working to increase their economic and military domination for which they are currently vacuuming away all of our savings in order to spread their Imperialism and weapons into space -- and beyond.

Some people are not interested in gauging everything on a material basis. That is why I have consistently said in my post that the conflict beneath Columbine is a conflict between a crass, materialistic oligarchy that is perpetuated through social conditioning, fear, violence, and racism -- and the higher aspirations of the human soul.