What were E/D doing on 4/20 pre-massacre?

I have a feeling this is another question with no answers. Does anyone have any theories as to what took place the morning before the shootings occurred?
Sometimes I wonder is there even any point to asking this question. But I think it could give us some kind of an insight into E/D states of mind, how they appeared to others and how finalized everything was. Was there any indication of either having second thoughts? If they were running around all over the place then why? Last minute supplies? Were they going to speak to someone, warn them or make sure they wouldn't be in school? IF they did enter the school or turned up at bowling then why? Did they plant something in the school beforehand? Maybe they just wanted to survey the ground? Did something unexpected come up which meant they had to divert from their original plan at the last moment? Or maybe they simply did just follow their original plan.

Notes in Dylan's' journal
"Walk in, set bombs at 11:09, for 11:17
Leave
Drive to Clemente park. Gear up.
Get back by 11:15
Park cars. set car bombs for 11:18
get out go to outside hill, wait.
When first bombs go off, attack.
have fun!"  pg(26490)

Notes in Eric's planner
"5:00     Get-up                                        
6:00     meet at KS                
7:00     go to Reb’s house
7:15     he leaves to fill propane
I leave to fill gas
8:30     Meet back at his house
9:00     made d. bag set up car  
9:30    practice gearups  
Chill  
10:30   set up 4 things  
11:       go to school  
11:10   set up duffel bags  
11:12   wait near cars, gear up
11:16   HAHAHA" pg(26313)

Witness Reports
08:20- Brian Deidel noticed Klebold sitting alone in the corner of the cafeteria after he finished his first hour class finished at 08:20 pg(1388)

08:25- Michelle Fox estimated that at 08:25 she saw Dylan driving in the school parking lot pg(5194) Tina Bernacchi pg(2455-6) and Lindsay Crandall pg(2779) confirm this, they all believed he was alone.

08:36- Receipt for 2 propane bottles from Conoco pg(25955)

09:00- Ed Reffitt (was working on the house next to Harris') says he saw Klebold pull into Harris' garage at approx 09:00am, the garage door closed, he heard glass breaking then the car left shortly after. He did not see who was driving the car when it left. pg(10237) Reffitt sees both Klebold and Harris on 4/19 and 4/20, he saw Harris with a crowbar and heard glass breaking and wood banging. The times he reported hearing them working between are redacted  pg(17997)

09:00- Dustin Harrison saw Harris and Klebold walking in the hallway around 09:00 and said "hello" to them. He said they were talking and in a good mood. pg (6576)

09:12- Receipt for propane from Texaco . Video allegedly of Eric purchasing propane: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Time stamp on the video is 07:56 - 07:57.The Texaco store clerk was interviewed on 27/4 and said "the recording times will be off the actual time by about one hour and twenty minutes."She did not identify Dylan as the person who bought propane pg(13346-7) On pg(18077) it is noted that the clerk identified a photo of Eric Harris in a photo spread as the person who purchased propane on 4/20 at around 09:12.
On pg(10408) a collection of 2 receipts dated 4/20 were taken from Erics residence trash can. Assuming this is the fore mentioned receipt either Eric purchased all the propane or Dylan purchased the Conoco propane and then returned to Eric's house and threw the receipt in the trash.

09:30- Molly Weksler said she saw both E/D outside the school sitting on the hood of Eric's' car around 9:30, she said his car was parked approx 2 spaces away from Dylan's. She says she walked past Eric's' vehicle and she said hello to him. pg(7357)

10:05- Harris was by the gym at 10:05 carrying a black pack pg(21918)

10:15 - 10:20- Harris and Klebold were outside the school between 10:15 and 10:20 on the East side of the building between the main and south hall exits. pg(22404)

10:20- "Berry remembered seeing Dylan Klebold at school on the 20th" said he was coming out of the social studies wing at around 10:20.pg(5384 - 5)

10:45- Nicole Dickey says she saw H/K at 10:45 at the smokers pit. When they saw her she said they both fired guns at her. She was scared and ran to Pierce and Polk where she was picked up by two friends.pg (6318) Interestingly on pg(16279) it's noted she saw H/K with Brian Sargent in the smokers pit. In her first interview she says she had lunch with Brian Sargent pg(6317)

10:50 - 10:55 approx- Around 30 minutes before the attack the final basement tape was recorded in the Harris home.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

10:55- Eric was seen leaving the parking lot at approx 10:55. pg(19939)

11:00- Shortly before 11am Klebold was seen driving in his BMW in a Hawaiian shirt, he was then in the parking lot of blackjack pizza, when approached he sped off with Harris following him in his car towards Columbine. pg(10187)

11:00 - 11:10- The CNN timeline has Harris driving into the junior parking lot and parking at 11:00 and Dylan into the senior lot at 11:10

11:05 - 11:10- Jennifer Smull said Eric was in the smokers pit between 11:05 and 11:10 he made a comment about Hitlers birthday to her and was possibly with others including Brooks Brown and Rachael Scott. pg(2185)

11:10- Klebold was seen pulling into the school parking lot at 11:10 and raised his hand slightly acknowledging Tony Martinez. He is certain there was a passenger in the car. pg(7533)

11:10 - After 4th hour around 11:10 Brooks Brown went outside for a cigarette. He was at the main entrance near the cafeteria when Harris drove up. After he exited his car the "Brooks i like you get out of here" comment was made. pg(10661)  

11:14 Megan Minger said she was with Rachael Scott around 5 minutes before the shooting, she says they saw Eric alone by the cafeteria, she said he was unarmed and gave her a "malevolent stare." pg(19235)

11:15- Jake Abodaca sees Klebold walk into the cafeteria just prior to the 11:15 bell, he entered from the southwest entrance. pg (656)

11:15- Klebold was seen pulling into the parking lot at 11:15, by Amanda Mendralla pg(16296)

11:15- Kristi Epling saw Eric pull into the parking lot at 11:15, they waved at each other pg(10717) Alyssa Sechler who left the school with Epling in separate cars also saw Eric driving into the junior lot, they also waved at each other pg(1152)

11:15 - 11:20 Andrew Beard saw Klebold driving in the senior parking lot at between 11:15 and 11:20. pg(684)

11:19- Shooting begins at the West entrance. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

An art teacher saw both Harris and Klebold on campus on 4/20 before the shooting (no specification on times here) pg(5153)

IF Eric or Dylan planted the diversion bomb, this would be another location either could have been at that morning. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Likewise if they placed the cafeteria bombs they would have done this pre-massacre.

Obviously they cannot have been in so many places at the same time, especially considering some of the sightings overlapping. It's difficult to discern which of these statements actually may have occurred. What is interesting is that some of these statements come from students or adults who were very well acquainted with E/D. Also in many of the comments E/D are reported as wearing numerous different outfits. What bugs me most is the instances where people had communication (including none verbal) with E/D and the accuracy of these statements. It's easy to brush off sightings as a mistake but people claiming to have had a conversation or acknowledged Eric and Dylan make me very curious. A typical school day usually follows a familiar routine so the times of these alleged sightings could be pretty accurate, e.g students would be aware what time their breaks and lessons were.
Is every person here just mistaken, confused or making it up? Or were E/D in one or several locations the morning of 4/20 that they didn't intend to be in and if so why?

(Sorry for the exceedingly large post)

It's quite difficult to know exactly what happened before the shootings began with so many different stories, overlapping of times, preparations that needed to be made, etc. Plus I don't get why they would leave school numerous times in the mornings and then come back. But at the moment I cant think of a reason why people would lie about it either. Unless there are other people who looked similar to Eric and Dylan and people got mistaken.

Eric's schedule confuses me too. I don't know why he wrote go to Reb's house, he leaves to fill propane, I leave to fill gas ,meet back at his house. It sounds like Dylan would write that.

CatherineM813 wrote:

Eric's schedule confuses me too. I don't know why he wrote go to Reb's house, he leaves to fill propane, I leave to fill gas ,meet back at his house. It sounds like Dylan would write that.

The writing looks very similar, I think it's possible that Dylan could have written this in Eric's planner or Eric wrote it to show to Dylan.

Quote :

But at the moment I cant think of a reason why people would lie about it either.

To get their fifteen minutes of fame. Like the Nicole Dicky story, there's no way in cold blue hell that actually happened.

However, since 9:30-10:30 is listed as "chill" time, could some of these stories actually be true? What did Eric and Dylan do for this hour? For some reason I can believe that they did actually drive to school and sit on Eric's car, perhaps to scope things out.

Quote :

11:00- Shortly before 11am Klebold was seen driving in his BMW in a hawaiian shirt

I find this way too funny.

MarmaladeSkies wrote:

Quote :

11:00- Shortly before 11am Klebold was seen driving in his BMW in a hawaiian shirt

I find this way too funny.

Lol, did he really have a Hawaiian shirt?

Jenn wrote:

MarmaladeSkies wrote:

Quote :

11:00- Shortly before 11am Klebold was seen driving in his BMW in a hawaiian shirt

I find this way too funny.

Lol, did he really have a Hawaiian shirt?

Probably the shirt Devon Adams coerced him to wear at her Lethal Luau party. It goes with the "chill" aspect of his notes in Eric's Day Planner. ;)

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

Jenn wrote:

MarmaladeSkies wrote:

Quote :

11:00- Shortly before 11am Klebold was seen driving in his BMW in a hawaiian shirt

I find this way too funny.

Lol, did he really have a Hawaiian shirt?

Probably the shirt Devon Adams coerced him to wear at her Lethal Luau party. It goes with the "chill" aspect of his notes in Eric's Day Planner. ;)

So he was just cruising around town, in his Hawaiian shirt, on the day he planned to do a massacre? Lol.

Jenn wrote:

So he was just cruising around town, in his Hawaiian shirt, on the day he planned to do a massacre? Lol.

Many of the statements had them wearing different outfits, the Hawaiian shirt one possibly the most comical.

The only things that bother me about this particular statement is, firstly this person claimed he saw Dylan twice, shortly before 11:00, once driving in his car in a Hawaiian shirt then shortly after at Blackjack Pizza with Eric. The second time he says Dylan was in all black. If the CNN timeline is correct and Dylan drove into the car park at 11:10 it would be possible for him to get from Blackjack to CHS in this time frame. IF this is accurate Dylan could have just dumped the shirt somewhere outside as I don't believe a Hawaiian shirt was recovered from his car. Secondly the witness knew Eric and Dylan and had worked at Blackjack pizza for approximately 2 months, so you would think he could recognize them and their vehicles pretty well. The interview was conducted on 4/22 in the afternoon, this witness seems to know quite a bit of information about E/D and other co-workers (i'm not sure how much had been released to the public by this point). Also he didn't come forth to the police it was actually his mother who I would imagine he told this story to before pg(10187 - 10188)
The post in this thread: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was with E/D's old boss, he is quoted as saying: "WE were supposed to be shot to hell as a distraction for the police, not the pipe bombs. The FBI informed us of that little tid bit as well as one of our employees that was waiting outside that day, saw them pull up, then drive away when i wasn't there.." (it's about half way down the page) which would support the theory that E/D could have been at Blackjack that morning.

I don't know what to believe, i'm just offering a possibility here in favor for E/D going to Blackjack the morning of 4/20 and Dylan possibly have been seen.. mayyyybe wearing a Hawaiian shirt. There's also many options which could prove this sighting false. But a Hawaiian shirt!? Although it does seems pretty specific the only real genuine reason I could think of is if he was wearing is as some type of disguise for whatever reason, as I don't think a Hawaiian shirt was part of his regular attire.
(I don't mean to imply he was floating around town dressed as some kind of Hula dancer or anything).

MarmaladeSkies wrote:

To get their fifteen minutes of fame. Like the Nicole Dicky story, there's no way in cold blue hell that actually happened.

This was my thought, personally I don't feel this account is true.

That's the issue with many of these statements, some may have been made with an ulterior motive like wanting 15 mins of fame like you mention, some could have been genuine mistakes others could be true. The ones that make me wonder are those from people who were very familiar with E/D.

Like many other aspects of Columbine, I doubt that we'll ever know the answer to this one. I'd like to know the exact time frame that the Basement Tapes were filmed, that would help to eliminate some of these. I agree that people who knew them should be given a bit more weight. Epling and Sechler, both of whom were friends of Eric, separately give statements to the police that they saw him pulling into the parking lot at 11:15. Two different people, both knew Eric and his car, would fit with what we know. Sounds legit to me.

The Hawaiian shirt? Hey, maybe Dylan said "Fuck it, I'm going to die today and it makes me happy so I'm going to wear this pretty shirt." Who knows?

Quote :

The post in this thread: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was with E/D's old boss, he is quoted as saying: "WE were supposed to be shot to hell as a distraction for the police, not the pipe bombs. The FBI informed us of that little tid bit as well as one of our employees that was waiting outside that day, saw them pull up, then drive away when i wasn't there.." (it's about half way down the page) which would support the theory that E/D could have been at Blackjack that morning.

The problem I have with this theory is that E&D clearly lacked a motive to attack Blackjack. As far as I know, they were cool and even liked everybody they worked with--so why shoot them up as a "distraction?" Not to mention that this wasn't mentioned anywhere else. Why, in particular, would the FBI choose to cover up this?

MarmaladeSkies wrote:

Quote :

The post in this thread: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was with E/D's old boss, he is quoted as saying: "WE were supposed to be shot to hell as a distraction for the police, not the pipe bombs. The FBI informed us of that little tid bit as well as one of our employees that was waiting outside that day, saw them pull up, then drive away when i wasn't there.." (it's about half way down the page) which would support the theory that E/D could have been at Blackjack that morning.

The problem I have with this theory is that E&D clearly lacked a motive to attack Blackjack. As far as I know, they were cool and even liked everybody they worked with--so why shoot them up as a "distraction?" Not to mention that this wasn't mentioned anywhere else. Why, in particular, would the FBI choose to cover up this?

Jason Secor and Chris Lau were told this by the authorities, in MY opinion, because they wanted to scare them into not hiding ANYTHING.

If you go to the last few posts in that thread, a few of us are discussing this, and how it is a tactic that is commonly used to "get" people to talk and not even dream of holding anything back or covering for anyone.

I honestly think Secor and Lau were lied to. I don't think that there is a sliver of truth to this story. I posted the ONLY commentary that was made (that we are AWARE of) in the basement tapes about Black Jack, by Eric; it is the last post. He was sad about leaving them, and REALLY liked them and other coworkers there. I honestly believe that the authorities twisted that statement Eric made around to get what they wanted from Secor and Lau.

tfsa47090 wrote:

MarmaladeSkies wrote:

Quote :

The post in this thread: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was with E/D's old boss, he is quoted as saying: "WE were supposed to be shot to hell as a distraction for the police, not the pipe bombs. The FBI informed us of that little tid bit as well as one of our employees that was waiting outside that day, saw them pull up, then drive away when i wasn't there.." (it's about half way down the page) which would support the theory that E/D could have been at Blackjack that morning.

The problem I have with this theory is that E&D clearly lacked a motive to attack Blackjack. As far as I know, they were cool and even liked everybody they worked with--so why shoot them up as a "distraction?" Not to mention that this wasn't mentioned anywhere else. Why, in particular, would the FBI choose to cover up this?

Jason Secor and Chris Lau were told this by the authorities, in MY opinion, because they wanted to scare them into not hiding ANYTHING.

If you go to the last few posts in that thread, a few of us are discussing this, and how it is a tactic that is commonly used to "get" people to talk and not even dream of holding anything back or covering for anyone.

I honestly think Secor and Lau were lied to. I don't think that there is a sliver of truth to this story. I posted the ONLY commentary that was made (that we are AWARE of) in the basement tapes about Black Jack, by Eric; it is the last post. He was sad about leaving them, and REALLY liked them and other coworkers there. I honestly believe that the authorities twisted that statement Eric made around to get what they wanted from Secor and Lau.

I agree, I don't personally believe that they wanted to attack Blackjack at all and I also feel like it could have been a tactic by the police to scare Blackjack employees into revealing something, at that moment law enforcement would have been desperate for any information they could get.
In relation to the sighting at Blackjack if this was real and had been made known to other employees it would fit this tale perfectly. E/D were seen outside Blackjack then the police say 'Oh yeah we know why, it was because they were going to bomb the place' as a means of gaining information.
I don't believe there is any other mention by E/D that they intended to target Blackjack, as mentioned they did talk about the place / their co-workers affectionately. However what intrigues me is if they were in the parking lot of Blackjack then what were they doing so close to the massacre?
I posted the link to the other thread to give an example of the second time I remembered reading something about E/D been seen at Blackjack pre-massacre. I know this could have been a case of one person possibly seeing E/D, telling others who then repeat it etc. It's just so difficult to assess the reliability and accuracy of all the statements.
In all honesty I feel like if E/D were running all over the place the morning of 4/20 they were doing something else other than planting bombs all over the town, it's just a personal opinion, I just don't feel like this is something they were doing.

queenfarooq wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

MarmaladeSkies wrote:

Quote :

The post in this thread: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was with E/D's old boss, he is quoted as saying: "WE were supposed to be shot to hell as a distraction for the police, not the pipe bombs. The FBI informed us of that little tid bit as well as one of our employees that was waiting outside that day, saw them pull up, then drive away when i wasn't there.." (it's about half way down the page) which would support the theory that E/D could have been at Blackjack that morning.

The problem I have with this theory is that E&D clearly lacked a motive to attack Blackjack. As far as I know, they were cool and even liked everybody they worked with--so why shoot them up as a "distraction?" Not to mention that this wasn't mentioned anywhere else. Why, in particular, would the FBI choose to cover up this?

Jason Secor and Chris Lau were told this by the authorities, in MY opinion, because they wanted to scare them into not hiding ANYTHING.

If you go to the last few posts in that thread, a few of us are discussing this, and how it is a tactic that is commonly used to "get" people to talk and not even dream of holding anything back or covering for anyone.

I honestly think Secor and Lau were lied to. I don't think that there is a sliver of truth to this story. I posted the ONLY commentary that was made (that we are AWARE of) in the basement tapes about Black Jack, by Eric; it is the last post. He was sad about leaving them, and REALLY liked them and other coworkers there. I honestly believe that the authorities twisted that statement Eric made around to get what they wanted from Secor and Lau.

I agree, I don't personally believe that they wanted to attack Blackjack at all and I also feel like it could have been a tactic by the police to scare Blackjack employees into revealing something, at that moment law enforcement would have been desperate for any information they could get.
In relation to the sighting at Blackjack if this was real and had been made known to other employees it would fit this tale perfectly. E/D were seen outside Blackjack then the police say 'Oh yeah we know why, it was because they were going to bomb the place' as a means of gaining information.
I don't believe there is any other mention by E/D that they intended to target Blackjack, as mentioned they did talk about the place / their co-workers affectionately. However what intrigues me is if they were in the parking lot of Blackjack then what were they doing so close to the massacre?
I posted the link to the other thread to give an example of the second time I remembered reading something about E/D been seen at Blackjack pre-massacre. I know this could have been a case of one person possibly seeing E/D, telling others who then repeat it etc. It's just so difficult to assess the reliability and accuracy of all the statements.
In all honesty I feel like if E/D were running all over the place the morning of 4/20 they were doing something else other than planting bombs all over the town, it's just a personal opinion, I just don't feel like this is something they were doing.

I entirely agree with your final point. If they were driving everywhere/showing up everywhere, it was sort of aimless and the intent was more than likely to simply kill time. I don't mean to veer so far off, but I REALLY think if this is true (at Black Jack or not; but going to multiple places) it is a further testament to the fact that there was STILL MAYBE some doubt in one or both of them; the hope that one would tell the other "let's forget this insanity". I KNOW that is possibly highly unlikely, but, it is what I feel is a possibility. Regardless, I think they were wasting time more than it is generally assumed, and that it was just random; aimless, really. I hope I am making some sort of sense. (I'm exhausted and I have a LOT going on right now, so I apologize if my posts are weirder than usual).

tfsa47090 wrote:

I entirely agree with your final point. If they were driving everywhere/showing up everywhere, it was sort of aimless and the intent was more than likely to simply kill time. I don't mean to veer so far off, but I REALLY think if this is true (at Black Jack or not; but going to multiple places) it is a further testament to the fact that there was STILL MAYBE some doubt in one or both of them; the hope that one would tell the other "let's forget this insanity". I KNOW that is possibly highly unlikely, but, it is what I feel is a possibility. Regardless, I think they were wasting time more than it is generally assumed, and that it was just random; aimless, really. I hope I am making some sort of sense. (I'm exhausted and I have a LOT going on right now, so I apologize if my posts are weirder than usual).

I just can't make up my mind regarding what they were doing if they were driving all over town, killing time? Possibility, visiting places one last time? Possibly, going to meet someone? possibly. Maybe they even went around and wanted to be seen acting normal to add to the shock value or even make them look more sadistic that they could socialize with friends then a short time later go on a killing spree. I just don't know, I can't make my mind up on this one.

Don't worry, I always find your posts make perfect sense.

queenfarooq wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

I entirely agree with your final point. If they were driving everywhere/showing up everywhere, it was sort of aimless and the intent was more than likely to simply kill time. I don't mean to veer so far off, but I REALLY think if this is true (at Black Jack or not; but going to multiple places) it is a further testament to the fact that there was STILL MAYBE some doubt in one or both of them; the hope that one would tell the other "let's forget this insanity". I KNOW that is possibly highly unlikely, but, it is what I feel is a possibility. Regardless, I think they were wasting time more than it is generally assumed, and that it was just random; aimless, really. I hope I am making some sort of sense. (I'm exhausted and I have a LOT going on right now, so I apologize if my posts are weirder than usual).

I just can't make up my mind regarding what they were doing if they were driving all over town, killing time? Possibility, visiting places one last time? Possibly, going to meet someone? possibly. Maybe they even went around and wanted to be seen acting normal to add to the shock value or even make them look more sadistic that they could socialize with friends then a short time later go on a killing spree. I just don't know, I can't make my mind up on this one.

Don't worry, I always find your posts make perfect sense.

Oh, I have NO idea what I fully believe about that, either. IF they were in all of those places, though, it could have been them stalling for multiple reasons. One reason I feel is also highly likely is fear, believe it or not. They were also already late when filming the final tape, allegedly.



Also, I'm glad I can still communicate somewhat intelligibly on basically no sleep, sorrow, anxiety, and general stress, especially right now!!

Since they might have been in so many places in the morning and killing time I wonder if they ever stopped to pick up the Adios album. I find it ironic that the album was released the day of the shootings.

CatherineM813 wrote:

Since they might have been in so many places in the morning and killing time I wonder if they ever stopped to pick up the Adios album. I find it ironic that the album was released the day of the shootings.

I always wondered if they picked this album up too, but wouldn't it have been mentioned in the reports if they found this CD or a receipt for it in the car or trash at Eric's house?

That's true I didn't think of that before. It's really sad to think of all the things they and their victims missed out on.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Oh, I have NO idea what I fully believe about that, either. IF they were in all of those places, though, it could have been them stalling for multiple reasons. One reason I feel is also highly likely is fear, believe it or not. They were also already late when filming the final tape, allegedly.

I've also heard to multiple references to them supposedly running late that morning. I wonder why, unless they were completely unprepared, or something else cropped up. If so I wonder what, so many possibilities.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Also, I'm glad I can still communicate somewhat intelligibly on basically no sleep, sorrow, anxiety, and general stress, especially right now!!

That doesn't sound like fun I hope you feel better soon.

Jenn wrote:

CatherineM813 wrote:

Since they might have been in so many places in the morning and killing time I wonder if they ever stopped to pick up the Adios album. I find it ironic that the album was released the day of the shootings.

I always wondered if they picked this album up too, but wouldn't it have been mentioned in the reports if they found this CD or a receipt for it in the car or trash at Eric's house?

I've never come across a receipt or mention of them owning the album anywhere. The other music receipts that were recovered showed they mainly bought from 'Angelo's CD's and Tapes' on W Littleton Blvd and 'Media Play' at Bowles Crossing Center, i'm not sure if Media Play is still there Getting to and from both locations would have taken some time out of their morning but it would make sense to go somewhere they were familiar with. But as mentioned there were no receipts or mention that i'm aware of for 4/20 with regards to an Adios CD. Eric did shop online at a KMFDM store, so that could be another possibility, but likewise I don't believe any receipts or packaging was found.
I wonder if law enforcement checked with any record stores in the area if anyone had gone in that morning before say 11 and bought the album. Somehow I doubt it.

queenfarooq wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

Oh, I have NO idea what I fully believe about that, either. IF they were in all of those places, though, it could have been them stalling for multiple reasons. One reason I feel is also highly likely is fear, believe it or not. They were also already late when filming the final tape, allegedly.

I've also heard to multiple references to them supposedly running late that morning. I wonder why, unless they were completely unprepared, or something else cropped up. If so I wonder what, so many possibilities.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Also, I'm glad I can still communicate somewhat intelligibly on basically no sleep, sorrow, anxiety, and general stress, especially right now!!

That doesn't sound like fun I hope you feel better soon.

Jenn wrote:

CatherineM813 wrote:

Since they might have been in so many places in the morning and killing time I wonder if they ever stopped to pick up the Adios album. I find it ironic that the album was released the day of the shootings.

I always wondered if they picked this album up too, but wouldn't it have been mentioned in the reports if they found this CD or a receipt for it in the car or trash at Eric's house?

I've never come across a receipt or mention of them owning the album anywhere. The other music receipts that were recovered showed they mainly bought from 'Angelo's CD's and Tapes' on W Littleton Blvd and 'Media Play' at Bowles Crossing Center, i'm not sure if Media Play is still there Getting to and from both locations would have taken some time out of their morning but it would make sense to go somewhere they were familiar with. But as mentioned there were no receipts or mention that i'm aware of for 4/20 with regards to an Adios CD. Eric did shop online at a KMFDM store, so that could be another possibility, but likewise I don't believe any receipts or packaging was found.
I wonder if law enforcement checked with any record stores in the area if anyone had gone in that morning before say 11 and bought the album. Somehow I doubt it.

I still think they were just stalling...just, still nervous and unsure. And, your perception and such is entirely off without sleep, and I can't remotely comprehend how either of them could even think about sleeping the night before. So, I think that was a huge part of it, too.

Thank you very much for your kind words. Life could be a lot worse, but there has just been a few things piled on top of one another all at once, and it takes its toll.

I have never seen any purchases that indicated they were able to get that album on the day of its release, either. I know Eric was very enthusiastic about them, but I don't think he cared about that on that morning, and I wonder when the shops there opened up, anyway. That was a small suburb, and in my experience (even though I never lived in a suburb), they open everything up late, and close pretty early. That doesn't mean it was the case with every (or any) business in their town, but I still don't think they went to purchase it, as much as they'd have probably enjoyed it.

I think if E & D ended up setting up a lot of stuff prior to 4/20, with help or not, they would have had a more flexible schedule compared to the one they wrote up in their journal/s. I was reading Tips M- Z the other night and some witnesses saw E & D at the school in the evening couple of days prior. They were scoping things out. Someone said they were at a picnic table in Clemente Park on 4/19 idly carving "4/20" "WRATH" and nazi symbols into the table. I think conceivably if they had the keys to the school and the bombs were brought in earlier plus the diversion bombs were set up earlier then they would have found themselves with extra time on their hands to drop by Bowling Class one more time for old time sake, or Black Jacks, or hanging out on the hood of their cars early at CHS. I guess they just didn't know what to do with themselves.. I can imagine the mix of excitement and anxiety and also that disbelief that they were actually going to do "it". They had stalled and done so much stuff (or had help with the prep) that they were actually running late for when the bombs were supposed to go off! I recall Dylan was running really late pulling back into the Senior lot that he almost crashed in to Chad Laughlin. Anyway, that's my theory.. It's just that the timeframes witnesses give don't jibe. I'm inclined to agree with the person who said to trust the account of those who knew them best. They would know for certain who they saw and around what time. Other people may have confused them for someone else - or confused seeing them on some other day.

Quote :

Someone said they were at a picnic table in Clemente Park on 4/19 idly carving "4/20" "WRATH" and nazi symbols into the table.

Never heard this before. Very interesting, were did you hear this?

MarmaladeSkies wrote:

Quote :

Someone said they were at a picnic table in Clemente Park on 4/19 idly carving "4/20" "WRATH" and nazi symbols into the table.

Never heard this before. Very interesting, were did you hear this?

Tips M - Z page 232 013554

Witnesses see them days prior at the school scoping things out- 4/13 week prior at 7 ish/dusk: 013535 and also the husband's account 013538 Both see plus 4-6 boys at open gym door previous weeks.

I thought the BMW tailgating the "white" honda was interesting.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

I think  if E & D ended up setting up a lot of stuff prior to 4/20, with help or not, they would have had a more flexible schedule compared to the one they wrote up in their journal/s.  I was reading Tips M- Z the other night and some witnesses saw E & D at the school in the evening couple of days prior.  They were scoping things out.   Someone said they were at a picnic table in Clemente Park on 4/19 idly carving "4/20" "WRATH" and nazi symbols into the table.  I think conceivably if they had the keys to the school and the bombs were brought in earlier plus the diversion bombs were set up earlier then they would have found themselves with extra time on their hands to drop by Bowling Class one more time for old time sake, or Black Jacks, or hanging out on the hood of their cars early at CHS.   I guess they just didn't know what to do with themselves.. I can imagine the mix of excitement and anxiety and also that disbelief that they were actually going to do "it".  They had stalled and done so much stuff (or had help with the prep) that they were actually running late for when the bombs were supposed to go off!  I recall Dylan was running really late pulling back into the Senior lot that he almost crashed in to Chad Laughlin.  Anyway, that's my theory..   It's just that the timeframes witnesses give don't jibe.  I'm inclined to agree with the person who said to trust the account of those who knew them best.  They would know for certain who they saw and around what time.  Other people may have confused them for someone else - or confused seeing them on some other day.  

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

Tips M - Z   page 232  013554

Witnesses see them days prior at the school scoping things out- 4/13 week prior at 7 ish/dusk:   013535 and also the husband's account 013538    Both see plus 4-6 boys at open gym door previous weeks. I thought the BMW tailgating the "white" honda was interesting.

You're right it is interesting. The sightings in the days leading up to 4/20 I feel are equally as interesting as those made the morning of 4/20. 

I've always been intrigued as to whether they had access to keys for the school. E/D were not stupid and I would imagine they would easily be able to get keys for the school if they had wanted to, it would make sense if they were planning on taking anything into the school prior to 4/20 and didn't want to be seen. 

In this article [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Battan claimed “They didn't have keys to the school.” So it must have been a thought that was floating around at the time.
If they did have keys it would obviously put the school in a very bad light and i'm sure the school would want to hide this. Likewise if anyone helped get them keys they wouldn't be wanting to admit to it.

11:15 - Interesting point to add that Mary Glass stated she left the school for lunch "at about 11:15." Dylan parked in her space so this would also narrow down the timeline he finally parked his car.
pg(6431) Interesting that he would arrive so close to when shooting reportedly began.

If both E/D were seen pulling into the car park and/or arriving at school within this time frame it seems like they would have been extremely pushed for time especially as the "official time line" has them entering the school, returning to their cars, talking to Brooks and possibly each other then go up the West entrance steps and begin shooting all between 11:10 and 11:19.
I always find the times at the beginning of the shooting to be a little off, especially when "official times" appear to contradict multiple witness accounts. I know there are explanations as to why witness accounts may not be 100% reliable but likewise i wonder what the reasons would be behind official times been incorrect.

queenfarooq wrote:

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

I think  if E & D ended up setting up a lot of stuff prior to 4/20, with help or not, they would have had a more flexible schedule compared to the one they wrote up in their journal/s.  I was reading Tips M- Z the other night and some witnesses saw E & D at the school in the evening couple of days prior.  They were scoping things out.   Someone said they were at a picnic table in Clemente Park on 4/19 idly carving "4/20" "WRATH" and nazi symbols into the table.  I think conceivably if they had the keys to the school and the bombs were brought in earlier plus the diversion bombs were set up earlier then they would have found themselves with extra time on their hands to drop by Bowling Class one more time for old time sake, or Black Jacks, or hanging out on the hood of their cars early at CHS.   I guess they just didn't know what to do with themselves.. I can imagine the mix of excitement and anxiety and also that disbelief that they were actually going to do "it".  They had stalled and done so much stuff (or had help with the prep) that they were actually running late for when the bombs were supposed to go off!  I recall Dylan was running really late pulling back into the Senior lot that he almost crashed in to Chad Laughlin.  Anyway, that's my theory..   It's just that the timeframes witnesses give don't jibe.  I'm inclined to agree with the person who said to trust the account of those who knew them best.  They would know for certain who they saw and around what time.  Other people may have confused them for someone else - or confused seeing them on some other day.  

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

Tips M - Z   page 232  013554

Witnesses see them days prior at the school scoping things out- 4/13 week prior at 7 ish/dusk:   013535 and also the husband's account 013538    Both see plus 4-6 boys at open gym door previous weeks. I thought the BMW tailgating the "white" honda was interesting.

You're right it is interesting. The sightings in the days leading up to 4/20 I feel are equally as interesting as those made the morning of 4/20. 

I've always been intrigued as to whether they had access to keys for the school. E/D were not stupid and I would imagine they would easily be able to get keys for the school if they had wanted to, it would make sense if they were planning on taking anything into the school prior to 4/20 and didn't want to be seen. 

In this article [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Battan claimed “They didn't have keys to the school.” So it must have been a thought that was floating around at the time.
If they did have keys it would obviously put the school in a very bad light and i'm sure the school would want to hide this. Likewise if anyone helped get them keys they wouldn't be wanting to admit to it.

Wasn't there speculation that the bombs could have been planted during Prom? And didn't they find bombs in places E & D supposedly never went to during the shooting?

I believe they were running late with almost everything that day. The schedule they drew up for themselves was probably not one they tested out beforehand (why oh why wouldn't you, seriously..) and they even put off getting the propane tanks until that morning. (If, by some miracle, they hadn't managed to get the propane that morning.. what on earth would they have done?) The last basement tape is timed to be shot at around 30 minutes prior to their scheduled starting point for the massacre, so that's the one of the few remotely definite locations we have for them that morning. (Can someone please tell me if I'm making shit up when I say that Dylan was hurrying Eric up by snapping his fingers during that tape? Could be even more 'proof' that they were running really late when they shot this. I've looked the transcripts up, but it doesn't indicate this even though I recall reading it somewhere..) I'd definitely roughly take Brooks's statement as to when the conversation with Eric took place into account, which would be around somewhere after 11:10. I'd also certainly buy into the statements from Kristi Epling and Alyssa Sechler saying they saw Eric in his car at around 11:15, because they knew him well enough to be sure that it was actually him. Some other people may have confused their sightings with some other day they saw the boys or mistook someone else for being one of them or whatever else, which would explain the overlap in timeframe in some of these statements. The official timeline for the shooting's a big mess anyway thanks to all the chaos and conflicting statements, so there's give or take a minute or so that could be 'off' in terms of timeline overall.

I really wonder why, despite all the tight scheduling and all the planning that went into this, they still left some things to the last minute and were still running late. Laziness, complacence, fear, the need to be busy on that final morning to stave off any other feelings, stalling for whatever reason, saying goodbye to some places or whatever, something else I'm not even seeing.. what the hell was it? Surely you'd testdrive your own schedule more than once to see if you could make it from place to place doing everything you needed to do in that time? Surely you'd, I dunno, not buy an integral component of your bombs on the morning you're supposed to let them go off? Surely you'd take a little more time than this to actually build the bombs and make sure everything was wired together correctly? Surely you'd have your shit together more than this with such an important event in your life?

Quote :

I really wonder why, despite all the tight scheduling and all the planning that went into this, they still left some things to the last minute and were still running late. Laziness, complacence, fear, the need to be busy on that final morning to stave off any other feelings, stalling for whatever reason, saying goodbye to some places or whatever, something else I'm not even seeing.. what the hell was it? Surely you'd testdrive your own schedule more than once to see if you could make it from place to place doing everything you needed to do in that time? Surely you'd, I dunno, not buy an integral component of your bombs on the morning you're supposed to let them go off? Surely you'd take a little more time than this to actually build the bombs and make sure everything was wired together correctly? Surely you'd have your shit together more than this with such an important event in your life?

I have always wondered this. I can actually see Dylan doing this, but Eric? This seems out of character. I would picture him wanting to synchronize watches and do a drill and time it and just generally not be so sloppy. Thank god he was, but it doesn't mesh with my interpretation of him.

Great OP and great post by dragonrampant.

I believe the accounts of Ed Reffitt, Martinez, Brown, Mandrella, Epling, Sechler, and Beard.

The Fox, Bernacchi, etc. 8:25 sightings are possible, given that Dylan may have been by himself at the time.

The Jake Abodaca testimony is really intriguing to me?  Did Dylan walk in the cafeteria for just a second at around 11:17, perhaps to see if anything had ignited?

I've long wondered exactly what they did during "chill" time and exactly why and how they lost track of time.

The timeline will tell you something about the boys' state of mind and level of maturity.

Cafeteria 11:09, drive to Clement Park, gear up, back by 11:15.

If you know the school or the park you know this is a ridiculous estimate. It would take twenty or thirty minutes to do this. These children were not thinking clearly (thank God).

lasttrain wrote:

The timeline will tell you something about the boys' state of mind and level of maturity.

Cafeteria 11:09, drive to Clement Park, gear up, back by 11:15.

If you know the school or the park you know this is a ridiculous estimate.  It would take twenty or thirty minutes to do this.  These children were not thinking clearly (thank God).

Isn't Clement Park right near the school? Mapquest says it's two minutes away. I'd say their estimate is fair. Two minutes there, two minutes to gear up, two minutes to drive back.

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MarmaladeSkies wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

The timeline will tell you something about the boys' state of mind and level of maturity.

Cafeteria 11:09, drive to Clement Park, gear up, back by 11:15.

If you know the school or the park you know this is a ridiculous estimate.  It would take twenty or thirty minutes to do this.  These children were not thinking clearly (thank God).

Isn't Clement Park right near the school? Mapquest says it's two minutes away.  I'd say their estimate is fair. Two minutes there, two minutes to gear up, two minutes to drive back.

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Yep. Clement Park is literally in the schools backyard. Still, six minutes ain't a whole lot of time. That's pushing it; they'd really need to be hustling. Silly boys.
Especially, if you consider that based on witness testimony, they were loitering around the school earlier in the morning. The lack of focus in being on target with their morning tasks
seems like subconscious vacillation.

lasttrain wrote:

The timeline will tell you something about the boys' state of mind and level of maturity.

Cafeteria 11:09, drive to Clement Park, gear up, back by 11:15.

If you know the school or the park you know this is a ridiculous estimate.  It would take twenty or thirty minutes to do this.  These children were not thinking clearly (thank God).

Agreed^ I just mentioned this today on Tumblr. They were intelligent but lacked the maturity. They were naive when it came to their sketchy schedule and how they assumed everything would
just magically come together with no backup plan thought out. No testing of the bombs. Couldn't they have gone into the mountains to test or would it have attracted too much attention?
As you said though, thankfully they were not thinking clearly!

The drive isn't the problem. I have been to Little League games at the park and I've driven from the park to the school a few times. You could drive back and forth many times in five minutes.

The problem is all the other stuff they planned to do. Let's suppose in their favor that 11:09 is when they planned to exit the cafeteria (not when they planned to begin carrying the bombs in).

Still, they have to walk back out to the parking lot (running would cause a scene), get in their cars, start them, navigate through a parking lot that would be seeing a lot of traffic from students leaving for lunch off-campus, "gear up" (I'm not sure exactly what they meant by this--a full "gear up" or merely a final one? If the former that would take several minutes by itself), then drive back and park, all in six minutes.

I'd say you could do this in fifteen if you were rushing and everything went perfectly.

lasttrain wrote:

The drive isn't the problem.  I have been to Little League games at the park and I've driven from the park to the school a few times.  You could drive back and forth many times in five minutes.

The problem is all the other stuff they planned to do.  Let's suppose in their favor that 11:09 is when they planned to exit the cafeteria (not when they planned to begin carrying the bombs in).

Still, they have to walk back out to the parking lot (running would cause a scene), get in their cars, start them, navigate through a parking lot that would be seeing a lot of traffic from students leaving for lunch off-campus, "gear up" (I'm not sure exactly what they meant by this--a full "gear up" or merely a final one? If the former that would take several minutes by itself), then drive back and park, all in six minutes.

I'd say you could do this in fifteen if you were rushing and everything went perfectly.

Exactly. In the video productions you can see how tight it is in the parking lot.  I can see how easy it would be for accidents to take place when people are rushing around in the lot.
I know Dylan, in his haste, almost hit Chad Laughlin.  They must have been a bit frazzled having dawdled part of the morning away and now were trying to meet the deadline.

As for "gear up", I think they had half way changed into their clothes over the course of the morning, so it was the very last bit of details.  They had their BDUs on but probably changed into their infamous t-shirts at Eric's after their last Basement Tape speech but left on their flannel shirts to conceal it.  When they went to do their final suit up, Eric peeled off his plaid flannel shirt and tossed it in the backseat. I recall he was wearing the flannel shirt at the video of the gas station where he was getting propane. In the interior photos of his car, you can see part of the plaid shirt.  They put their dusters on, single glove,  probably strapped all of their military web belts in place, ammo pouches to their legs. I think..velcro strips with flint attached to them - I recall reading this was innovative thing according to the police.  Put all their knives in place.   Vanessa Grimes mentioned seeing Dylan with a balacalva.  I wonder if they initially tried them out but decided masks were too obstructive, sweaty and annoying. Plus, they wanted people to see them.

Do we actually know whether they geared up at the park, or did they probably just do it at their cars?

Given how notorious this event is, and how thoroughly it was investigated, it is surprising we do not have a better understanding of the timeline.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

The timeline will tell you something about the boys' state of mind and level of maturity.

Cafeteria 11:09, drive to Clement Park, gear up, back by 11:15.

If you know the school or the park you know this is a ridiculous estimate.  It would take twenty or thirty minutes to do this.  These children were not thinking clearly (thank God).

Agreed^  I just mentioned this today on Tumblr.  They were intelligent but lacked the maturity.  They were naive when it came to their sketchy schedule and how they assumed everything would
just magically come together with no backup plan thought out. No testing of the bombs. Couldn't they have gone into the mountains to test or would it have attracted too much attention?  
As you said though, thankfully they were not thinking clearly!

Agreed with the both of you. I am also thankful that they weren't thinking clearly and that the entire elaborate plan turned out to be a hazy etch-a-sketch of the real deal. I would personally time myself driving around (and doing all these things) to make sure it fit into the timeframe I'd thought out. I'd also have a plan B/C/D and contingency minutes in case I got held up, which probably makes it a very good thing that I'm not out to destroy the world. This whole thing just seems so lacklustre when you think that this is what they've been working up to for little over a year. I understand the problem with buying the propane early (those tanks kinda stick out  ) but surely they could've found a remote place somewhere to test maybe a more minor version of the bombs they'd use on the day itself? All of the bomb failures have been put down to faulty wiring (why oh why did one of them still partially detonate?) and it does not make sense to me that the one thing a plan hinges on is the one thing that wasn't tested. Did they ever expect this crap to detonate or did they just close their eyes and make a wish or something? Look, it's a really good thing that none of this shit worked out for the boys but I would love to have a conversation on the how/what/why of planning with them all the same. (There are so, so many questions left to ask aside from these. It's just -- argh, I'm never going to figure this case out. Every time I think I've got something there's a new line of questions waiting in the wings.  )

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

The drive isn't the problem.  I have been to Little League games at the park and I've driven from the park to the school a few times.  You could drive back and forth many times in five minutes.

The problem is all the other stuff they planned to do.  Let's suppose in their favor that 11:09 is when they planned to exit the cafeteria (not when they planned to begin carrying the bombs in).

Still, they have to walk back out to the parking lot (running would cause a scene), get in their cars, start them, navigate through a parking lot that would be seeing a lot of traffic from students leaving for lunch off-campus, "gear up" (I'm not sure exactly what they meant by this--a full "gear up" or merely a final one? If the former that would take several minutes by itself), then drive back and park, all in six minutes.

I'd say you could do this in fifteen if you were rushing and everything went perfectly.

Exactly. In the video productions you can see how tight it is in the parking lot.  I can see how easy it would be for accidents to take place when people are rushing around in the lot.
I know Dylan, in his haste, almost hit Chad Laughlin.  They must have been a bit frazzled having dawdled part of the morning away and now were trying to meet the deadline.

As for "gear up", I think they had half way changed into their clothes over the course of the morning, so it was the very last bit of details.  They had their BDUs on but probably changed into their infamous t-shirts at Eric's after their last Basement Tape speech but left on their flannel shirts to conceal it.  When they went to do their final suit up, Eric peeled off his plaid flannel shirt and tossed it in the backseat.  I recall he was wearing the flannel shirt at the video of the gas station where he was getting propane. In the interior photos of his car, you can see part of the plaid shirt.  They put their dusters on, single glove,  probably strapped all of their military web belts in place, ammo pouches to their legs. I think..velcro strips with flint attached to them - I recall reading this was innovative thing according to the police.  Put all their knives in place.   Vanessa Grimes mentioned seeing Dylan with a balacalva.  I wonder if they initially tried them out but decided masks were too obstructive, sweaty and annoying. Plus, they wanted people to see them.

There was a ski mask found along with Eric's duster, so it's possible at some point that one of them was wearing a mask.

MarmaladeSkies wrote:

Wasn't there speculation that the bombs could have been planted during Prom? And didn't they find bombs in places E & D supposedly never went to during the shooting?

Yes there was speculation that the bombs could have been placed during prom. Here is one such article by the Denver Post: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
which speculates the bombs coud have been placed during the afterprom party. We know Dylan was at prom and both Dylan and Eric were at After-Prom as well as many of their friends.
There was also similar speculation as mentioned within this thread and news article that they may have had keys to the school.
Interestingly Stefanie Haney mentions although she did not see E/D with any dufflebags at after-prom it would have been "relatively easy" for E/D or their associates to gain access to other parts of the school due to "the fact they had keys to other areas of the school." She said they had keys because they needed them for video production pg(835-6). LE appear to question several students about the possibility of E/D and their associates gaining access to the school during prom / after-prom. In my opinion if such questions were been asked perhaps the possibility that the bombs were placed in the school during this time frame was seriously considered.
On the map on pg(959) there is a comment regarding the "Door left unlocked during after-prom."

As far as bombs been placed elsewhere inside the school there were various media reports that implied doors inside the building had been rigged with explosives, designed to explode as a door was opened:
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Likewise I have come across other media reports suggesting bombs were found in multiple backpacks throughout the school as well as bombs been set up to cause a 'chain reaction' type explosion. I'm guessing these could just be media reports. But if anyone has anything official that would be interesting to read.
The following quote came from here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
"There are backpacks with bombs in there everywhere,' Gov. Bill Owens said. 'The officers in there are convinced there had to be more people involved. There's just too much stuff in there."

It seems relevant to also mention that the maps on pg (924) pg(959) and pg(1079) state "Explosive devices found in three cars." Agency Reports indicate "process of empying 3rd car" at 21:48 on 4/20
pg(9226). Pg(9825) describes the search of a light blue Nissan where "numerous items of evidentiary value were collected... by members of the FBI ERT and CBI investigators." On pg(10767) there is information on Zach Hecklers car been towed as "evidence" from SW parking lot which is a blue Nissan with the same VIN and LP as the searched vehicle. Two additional vehicles belonging to associates of the suspects may have contained "some type of suspicious package." pg(7817)

thedragonrampant wrote:

(Can someone please tell me if I'm making shit up when I say that Dylan was hurrying Eric up by snapping his fingers during that tape? Could be even more 'proof' that they were running really late when they shot this. I've looked the transcripts up, but it doesn't indicate this even though I recall reading it somewhere..)

It was Dave Cullen was the one who suggested on the final tape: "Eric had one more thought but Dylan got restless and snapped his fingers. Eric flashed an angry look..."
This "finger snapping" is not reported in the 11k pg(10376 - 7) which Cullen himself has a copy of on his website, it also does not seem to be mentioned in many other transcripts that I have come across.

thedragonrampant wrote:

The official timeline for the shooting's a big mess anyway thanks to all the chaos and conflicting statements, so there's give or take a minute or so that could be 'off' in terms of timeline overall.

I completely agree with you, there are many time discrepancies throughout the shooting. The time stamps on the Texaco receipt and CCTV footage as mentioned in the OP for one.I always found the time discrepancy of Rachael Scotts lunch transaction interesting and relevant in this case.
The cash register records have Rachel Scott paying for her lunch at 11:32:36 pg(9864) It was reported that the cash register was ten minuets fast.
"I observed the clock to be ten minutes forward of the true time." pg(9846) this would still mean Rachel purchased her lunch at 11:22:36. If this was the case then how was she shot at 11:19? The last transaction on the cafeteria cash register is 11:36:21 minus ten minuets would be 11:26:21. According to the official timeline by 11:26 E/D had already shot and killed two students (Rachel and Danny) as well as wounded others. Dylan had gone up and down the steps and into the cafeteria, Deputy Gardiner had arrived on scene and exchanged gunfire with Eric, 911 had been called and E/D had entered the school and shots had been fired.But the whole time some students were still ordering and paying for their lunches.

thedragonrampant wrote:

Surely you'd testdrive your own schedule more than once to see if you could make it from place to place doing everything you needed to do in that time?
Surely you'd, I dunno, not buy an integral component of your bombs on the morning you're supposed to let them go off? Surely you'd take a little more time than this to actually build the bombs and make sure everything was wired together correctly? Surely you'd have your shit together more than this with such an important event in your life?

I can see where you are coming from here. This is just my opinion but i think they probably did test drive their schedule to some degree. They would know how long it would take them to drive to and from various locations and how long it would take them to gear up. They probably then just estimated how long it would take them to plant the cafeteria bombs (if they did) and go buy propane. They had test fired all of their weapons, had successfully detonated pipe bombs before and conducted tests. Eric particularly comes across like he had confidence in his bomb making skills. I think it's likely they were blinded by their own confidence and perceived knowledge, as far as we know there was no Plan B. I think they genuinely believed everything would work according to schedule.

lasttrain wrote:

The Jake Abodaca testimony is really intriguing to me?  Did Dylan walk in the cafeteria for just a second at around 11:17, perhaps to see if anything had ignited?

Jake Abodaca's statement is interesting if true. Although in his initial statement on 4/20 he mentions seeing three gunmen outside the school(wearing berets) none of whom he could identify in the school yearbook, but had seen around school pg(653 - 4). A week later in his second interview is when he mentions having seen Dylan entering the cafeteria just prior to 11:15. He description of Dylan is very accurate and he says he knew Dylan by sight pg(656). Chris Wisher who was with Abodaca also saw Dylan walk into the southeast entrance to the cafeteria from the parking lot and walk over to the vending machines. He didn't recall Klebold carrying anything pg(1263). Josh Chavez who was in this group did not see Dylan in the cafeteria but did identify him as a shooter outside pg(736 - 7). I'm wondering how many times Dylan actually entered the cafeteria that morning.

(Description says this is Jake Abodaca)
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Chris Wisher
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InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

Yep. Clement Park is literally in the schools backyard.  Still, six minutes ain't a whole lot of time. That's pushing it; they'd really need to be hustling.

Yes as mentioned Clement Park is right next to the school. According to Google Maps it would take 4 minuets to drive from Clement Park to the School. I agree that even if they rushed this is still not allowing a huge amount of time to drive there and back and gear up as mentioned in the "plan" in Dylan's journal.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

Couldn't they have gone into the mountains to test or would it have attracted too much attention?

I have also wondered from time to time why they did not test a larger bomb which they intended to use. I just think if they believed their bombs were capable creating a massive explosion then it's likely they wouldn't test them as you said because it could attract too much attention.

lasttrain wrote:

Given how notorious this event is, and how thoroughly it was investigated, it is surprising we do not have a better understanding of the timeline.

We have this timeline:
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But as you mention it is difficult to gain a better understanding of what actually happened not just during the shooting but also before.
Unfortunately there is nothing to describe what was going on the morning of 4/20 or within the months leading up.

MarmaladeSkies wrote:

There was a ski mask found along with Eric's duster, so it's possible at some point that one of them was wearing a mask.

The Ski Mask / Balaclava seems to be another piece of confusing evidence.
In this photograph: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
we can clearly see Erics coat, two gloves and a dark green ski mask. I'd be interested to know if these items were found exactly like this or were moved around to be photographed. Perhaps the gloves and mask were inside Eric's pocket. It's very interesting considering numerous witnesses reported seeing gunmen wearing some kind of mask, or appear to have been questioned about seeing gunmen in masks.

The coat, gloves, and mask were not found that way.

This is a picture before it was moved:

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lasttrain wrote:

The coat, gloves, and mask were not found that way.

This is a picture before it was moved:

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Ah yes, i have seen this picture before, thank you for posting.

Several of the outside witnesses in the 11K say that they saw Eric kneeling behind the fence and using the chain links to steady his gun as he fired down to the area outside the commons.

From the original placement of the coat, it seems that he may have discarded it around this time, possibly because it was restricting his mobility.

lasttrain wrote:

Several of the outside witnesses in the 11K say that they saw Eric kneeling behind the fence and using the chain links to steady his gun as he fired down to the area outside the commons.

From the original placement of the coat, it seems that he may have discarded it around this time, possibly because it was restricting his mobility.  

Yes I believe he removed his trench coat very early on in the shooting at the top of the stairs. The original picture of the coat certainly looks like it could have just been taken off and dumped on the ground, which of course it would have been. I highly doubt Eric would have taken the time to neatly lay his coat out on the ground. I should probably know this but i am wondering how close those gloves and mask were found to his coat, or if they were just inside his pocket then taken out to be photographed. I will have to check but i am sure i have seen another picture of the dark green looking mask elsewhere on it's own, unless of course it was just a close up shot i am thinking of.

I'll have to check some of the witness statements again about gunmen in masks although i think it will just be a case of some witnesses did see gunmen in masks and some did not. Of course it gets confusing if E or D did wear a mask and then discarded it early on. Although i'm not sure about this prospect.

Why would they wear masks? That doesn't make any sense? Wasn't the point of everything their "grand master plan" why would they even bother with masks?

areyoulistening wrote:

Why would they wear masks? That doesn't make any sense? Wasn't the point of everything their "grand master plan" why would they even bother with masks?

I agree, i don't understand why they would want to. I think they would want to be seen and recognized by as many people as possible.

The Official Timeline has Harris taking off his trench coat at 11:19 dropping it at the top of the stairs and Klebold dropping his trench coat in the library between 11:29 - 11:36 just before Steven Curnow is shot.
As shown in lasttrain's post the picture of Eric's trench coat looks as it would have when he discarded it. There are several photographs in the El Paso Report Outside Crime Scene pictures that show the trench coat from different angles (#18, #20, #25, #26, #27). The other picture posted above shows the pair of gloves with dark green ski mask placed next to Eric's coat. It would seem these items were laid out together to be photographed because they were found together....
After a bit of digging i noticed the coat, gloves and mask are listed under the same evidence number (#2258) in the handwritten evidence recovery log. In the Misc column is written "black duster + Green Mask + gloves" pg(11327)which would suggest that these items were likely found inside Eric's pocket or possibly even under it. Interestingly Eric's coat is listed as evidence on pg(11639) as #2258 "black long jacket (Eric Harris)" with no mention of mask or gloves.

I find it interesting and relevant to this thread if we assume the gloves and mask did in fact belong to Eric and were found in his pocket or with his coat.
Would he have worn the gloves / mask recently or did he put them in his pocket just prior to the shooting and why? Did he wear them pre-shooting at any time? I would imagine gloves and a mask stuffed into a coat pocket would be kind of bulky and maybe restrictive?

There are witnesses who report seeing gunmen in masks (among other things) outside the school but also many witnesses that say they saw no masks. If I am not mistaken i also believe there were reports of masked gunmen inside the school also. I will check on this.

They are clearly wearing gloves in their suicide pictures (Eric on his right hand and Dylan on his left), would they have bothered to take a spare pair?

In my opinion i find the whole morning of 4/20 very confusing time wise right up until the first shots were supposedly fired. Just to go back over some of the previous posts in this thread, it baffles me that Mrs Klebold said Dylan left the house that morning at 5.15 pg(10523) and then we only have a very rough idea of what he was doing up until he is filming the last basement tape around 10:50 - 10:55, that's over a 5 hour gap.
The notes in Eric's planner seems more like the plan they would have followed that morning but then it is brought into question by the numerous witness sightings. Even then it's a case of figuring out which statements are true and which are not.
This is probably just me but i am very surprised Jeffco did not seem to show more of an interest in the boys activities leading up to the shooting, not just the morning of the shooting but the months prior.

Just another bit of information:

Witness Sarah Gillings was told by a student named Gabe Montoya...that a neighbor of his (Gabe's) named "Nathan" told him at 2:00p.m the day of the shooting that Corey DePooter was killed in the shooting, Nathan told Gabe he found out on news reports when no such reports were aired. Gabe also told her that he saw Dylan's black car and another tan sedan at Nathan's house the morning of the shooting.   pg(3142)

(Allegedly Nathan Dykeman had owned a tan sedan before changing cars a few weeks prior to 4/20)

What's interesting about Corey DePooter is that out of all the students killed he's the only one that sort of gives off a jock-vibe, well at least to me anyway. Unluckily for him that he was the final fatality

I think we have to use much speculation to have an idea on what occurred the morning of 4/20. According to the written schedule in Eric's agenda (written by Dylan), they planned to meet up at KS (King Soopers), a grocery store at 6:00 AM, and then meet up at Eric's home at 7:00 AM. Now, its very obvious that they did not follow this plan exactly, but it does indicate their general idea of what they were going to do. Eric and Dylan had a lot to accomplish before they could commit NBK. They still had to: buy most of their gas cans and flammable materials, possibly get more backpacks/duffel bags, fill up propane tanks and fill up all the gas tanks, load up their duffelbag/backpacks with various explosive, ammunition, matches ect. They would have to assemble both diversionary bombs, both cafateria bombs, and then both car bombs and then transfer all their equipment to their cars. Essentially, all of this would take a lot of time.

To get into their mentality, they both had run into close calls in having their intentions discovered; they most certainly did not want to attract attention. Testing 2"x6" pipebombs in the mountains is one thing, as the explosion is just a hyped up fire cracker, but testing BLEVE explosions with 20 lb propane tanks in the mountains would attract a lot of attention as they produce huge fireball and would possibly cause a Forrest fire. It would have been impractical to test these bombs before hand, and it would have been dangerous to build them and then store them in their homes as there was too risky a chance that their parents would discover them. Therefore, they would be forced to buy and assemble the components on the day of.

Based on everything they still had to do, it would make sense that Dylan would have left his home at 5:15 or 5:30 and meet up at KS's early. They had a lot to buy there so that probably took some time. It is important to note that the earliest sighting of Eric and Dylan was after 8 AM, about 3 hours after Dylan would have left. It is likely Eric and Dylan wanted to get everything prepared in the hours before the first initial sightings of them. While I personally want to discount many of the sightings such as them being inside the school hours before the shooting, them being in clement park etc. its still obvious they were driving around possibly "chilling" for a few hours. After they met at KS I would bet they filled up their personal duffel bags with their semi-automatics/shotguns and explosives and put them in their cars. They probably would have also assembled their diversionary bombs at this point. Their diversionary bombs used 16.4 oz propane tanks which Eric and Dylan had probably bought days if not weeks before NBK; in their basement tapes they mention having already bought some propane. It would have taken some time as hooking up the timer with the wires/battery to the fuses would have been somewhat time consuming. They may have even have dropped them off this early. So, at this point they *might* have already assembled their diversionary bombs, planted them, assembled their equipment and placed them in their cars.

After they got the last of their materials, they would have split up: Eric to buy propane (two receipts are time stamped at Conoco 8:36 and Texaco 9:12). Dylan's job of filling up all the gas cans (they had like 15-20 fuel tanks to fill for their cafateria bombs and car bombs plus the possibility that their incendiary devices may have fused gasoline) would have taken less time. At SOME point they would have had to assemble these bombs. This might have taken some time, but its also possible that the main component of the bombs (the timers) would have already been assembled. So after getting the gasoline and propane tanks, all they would have had to do was tape the cans and timer to the tanks and placed them in their respective bags. This would not have taken too much time, and may have made it possible for them to drive all over doing w/e the hell they were doing at all these locations.

Here is my estimation of the events as they happened in the morning:

On Tuesday at 5:00 AM both Eric and Dylan got up as usual, which normally would have seen them getting ready to go to bowling class. They both put on clothing that was unrelated to NBK, Dylan left his house at 5:15, his parents were still in bed and he called out "bye" as he ran out the door, and wildly took off in his BMW. They would of then met up at the grocery store King Soopers. Here they proceded to buy a large quantity of gas tanks, possibly some more duffelbags, and lighter fluid and other flammable liquids. They would have bought any remaining items they needed. The two of them went to the bowling alley and were seen by multiple people in the parking lot at 7:15, but they left shortly after. They would then probably have met up at Eric's house and prepared for NBK in what i estimate to have been the following manner. They may have loaded up their personal explosives, firearms, and equipment into their personal backpacks/duffelbags and kept them in a quick to retrieve area. They would have loaded their ammunition into their pouches and kept their equipment handy. They probably would have also assembled their diversionary bombs at this point. They may have also assembled all their various alarm clocks at this point to be able to quickly assemble their main bombs. They would have then separated: eric to fill and buy the propane tanks and Dylan to fill the gasoline tanks. Eric filled up 2 propane tanks at Conoco for $79.16 at 8:36 AM and then filled another tank at Texaco at 9:12 for $52.39. Dylan filled up all the gas cans. Meanwhile Dylan showed up at school and was seen sitting in the cafeteria at 8:20 in the corner according to Brian Deidel. He was next seen by several girls independently who knew him driving out of the school parking lot, possibly filling up more fuel. He was seen in his black pants, boots, hat, and black shirt. Dylan at some point drove to Eric's house arriving at 9:00 while Eric was filling up the propane tanks. He pulls into the garage and sounds of broken glass was heard, possibly creating shrapnel. Within a few minutes he pulls back out of hte car and leaves. Dylan probably drove to Wendy's about this point and got some french fry's, according to his autopsy. From 10:05 to 10:20 the two of them were seen in various places around the school. This was probably their chill time, just relaxing around the area. They would have left and went back to Eric's home and assembled the cafeteria bombs and car bombs. Since they both had all the necessary components they would have quickly assembled the bombs with probably pre-made alarm clocks. They would have loaded up all their car bomb material and equipment. At about 10:50 they recorded their final goodbye video in Eric's home and they would have left at about this time and drove to the field to drop off their diversionary bombs. Then they immediately drove toward school.