The best choice for Eric

Eric was having homicidal thoughts. I'm not sure if his anger at the people around him caused those thoughts, or if killing was just exciting to him. Whatever the cause, his mass murder fantasies were clearly not just an act of desperation -he enjoyed thinking about them. He had a fetish for militaristic killing.

What do people on this forum think he should have done with those thoughts?

If Eric had told his therapist that he was *seriously* homicidal, I think it would have wreaked havoc on his life. It could have resulted in the loss of his freedom.

If Eric was suicidal, I imagine it would be hard for him to find sympathy for the people around him, who he saw as the cause of him being unable to live. Eric was already taking anti-depressants and they weren't making him feel any less like dying, so what was the next step?

A massacre wasn't the answer, but what was?

Fight Club.

No, j/k but this is a good question. And like many others related to Columbine, one that doesn't have a true answer. (For the record, I think Eric did try - consciously or subconscious - to let people know that his homicidal urges were real.)

There are a ton of different meds out there that could have been tried, although meds aren't always the answer. Some other way of relieving aggression? Smoke a lot of pot? That always robbed me of any motivation I had. I know these sound like flippant answers but there're the best I've got. Would love to see what everyone else thinks.

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Fight Club.

Or Doom Club. Eric said he'd like to throw everyone into a level of Doom and have a free-for-all. Maybe there are other Eric's in the world and they would participate in such a thing? Would people pay to watch this? This could have made Eric famous while allowing him indulgence of his desire to shoot things. If it was legal, it could give mass murderers a way to be appreciated in their society, by entertaining the rampage loving public without innocents needing to be killed to do it.

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(For the record, I think Eric did try - consciously or subconscious - to let people know that his homicidal urges were real.)

Eric let Dylan know that he was serious, and I think he would have spilled the beans to anyone who was willing to discuss it. Interestingly, when I read Dylan's journal, I see that he was considering going on a killing spree with someone other that Eric. I also heard that someone else they were friends with made threats towards Columbine afterwards. It makes me wonder: Did the teenagers at Columbine do anything else with their lives besides trying to recruit their peers to go on killing sprees with them?

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I know these sound like flippant answers but there're the best I've got.

This is why I made this thread. Someone else on the board said that mass murder isn't an appropriate way to deal with society's hate, so what is? Sadly enough, I can't think of too many other options for Eric.

I'm typing this on my phone so please forgive any misspellings and errors, as well as the inability to quote stuff.

Regarding "Doom Club": an interesting idea, but this doesn't strike me as something that would appeal to Eric. The concept, yes. But the reality, Eric thought of himself as weak no matter how hard he pretended otherwise. The idea of being taken out early on, being seen as an easy target, not having the ultimate power, would have scared him off IMO.

The friend was Erik Veick and he was investigated by police multiple times for threats. He was also someone who spent a lot of time with, and supposedly worshipped, E&D. I wonder if he was outcast after the fact for that association and that led him to such behavior. But it really sounds like Columbine sucked if you weren't a jock.

I don't know. I think being a marine would have been good for Eric, whether he would have been good for the Marines. Being front-line might be a good choice for mass murderers. And hell, part of me still thinks he might have even been able to learn to control it.

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I'm typing this on my phone so please forgive any misspellings and errors, as well as the inability to quote stuff.

Anyone who has the patience to use the internet on their phone must have been born with good genes. 

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Eric thought of himself as weak no matter how hard he pretended otherwise. The idea of being taken out early on, being seen as an easy target, not having the ultimate power, would have scared him off IMO.

I thought Eric's pride might have compelled him to compete in such an event. He committed suicide so he wasn't afraid to die, and he wanted to join the Marines where (I presume) he hoped to be shot at.

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The friend was Erik Veick and he was investigated by police multiple times for threats. He was also someone who spent a lot of time with, and supposedly worshipped, E&D.

Ah, thanks for that. I couldn't recall the name of the guy. I find it interesting that there were so many potential rampage murderers going to Columbine High? If Veick had gone postal at Columbine he would have been guaranteed instant fame (Do any of the current downtrodden Columbine students ever think about how much power of devastation they hold in their hands by going to that school? A second attack on it would be devastating). If Veick had gone through with it, I wonder if the town would have given up then and bulldozed the school?

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I don't know. I think being a marine would have been good for Eric

I worry that Eric may have had trouble with the social structure in the Marines like he did at Columbine. Someone else pointed out that Eric looked a bit physically weak. That may have caused his military peers to pick on him.

Also, Erik Veick is the guy who gets pushed in the video walking around the Columbine school, isn't he? The media these days talks about what a good school Columbine is and how they didn't deserve what happened, but there is video evidence of Veick getting shoved and (because he considered an attack of his own) this issue clearly wasn't dealt with. The school had a chance to prevent another slaughter by making this guy's life better, but I'll bet Veick's life only got worse after Columbine.


You would by any chance know what become of this guy, do you?

You may be right about Eric's pride. I was thinking more along the lines of his desire to prove his toughness, and how much harder that would be in an arena (for example) of other crazy mofos who want to kill people and be badass as much as you.

Yes, Erik V was the guy behind the camera in that video who got shoved. I've seen multiple people say they didn't think it looked like an attack, no big deal, etc. I judge by Eric Harris' body language - head down, shoulders squared. He was braced for it. Last I heard, Erik V grew up and does something involving electrical work on theater productions or similar. I've said it elsewhere, but I would give quite a lot to hear from him about his perspective of E/D and what he knew.

My knowledge of the Marines is pretty limited, but I'm sure it would be a tough transition. Then again I have a friend who went in the Marines who was small enough to make Eric look like a giant and he never got picked on for his size. Eric's problem with authority figures may or may not have come out in that setting. After all, he rarely had problems with teachers, bosses, etc.

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Yes, Erik V was the guy behind the camera in that video who got shoved. I've seen multiple people say they didn't think it looked like an attack, no big deal, etc.

I think it's a big deal, mainly because of the reaction of both Eric and Erik. I can't imagine not at least saying "Fuck you" if someone knocked into me deliberately. You'd have to be actually SCARED of someone to not make any comment in that situation.

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I've said it elsewhere, but I would give quite a lot to hear from him about his perspective of E/D and what he knew.

Me too. I just saw a YouTube news clip from one day after the massacre and Erik talks in it briefly. I think he'd be a very interesting source of information on E/D.

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You may be right about Eric's pride. I was thinking more along the lines of his desire to prove his toughness, and how much harder that would be in an arena (for example) of other crazy mofos who want to kill people and be badass as much as you.

I can't decide about Eric's toughness. On one hand, it took a lot of guts to show up at Columbine, knowing that eventually the cops would shoot at him and he'd be forced to commit suicide. On the other hand, he looked timid in that Erik Veik video with his head down, avoiding eye contact.

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Then again I have a friend who went in the Marines who was small enough to make Eric look like a giant and he never got picked on for his size.

Don't get me wrong, I do think it could have worked out in the Marines for Eric, but I also think that any situation that put guns and Eric together in the same place had the potential to turn ugly. He seemed to derive power from holding a gun, and not in a healthy, protective way. He seemed to enjoy knowing that he was "badass" enough to kill someone and feel no remorse about it. I believe he needed a different source of power.

Probably the best choice for Eric/Dylan would have been to NOT go to Columbine.

But because they were already in that situation, the only thing that would have maybe helped either of them was being with a woman or girl that TRULY loved them and cared for them and stayed with them for at least a year or two before 4/20/99.

sororityalpha wrote:

Probably the best choice for Eric/Dylan would have been to NOT go to Columbine.

But because they were already in that situation, the only thing that would have maybe helped either of them was being with a woman or girl that TRULY loved them and cared for them and stayed with them for at least a year or two before 4/20/99.

"Love kills the demon"

sororityalpha wrote:

Probably the best choice for Eric/Dylan would have been to NOT go to Columbine.

But because they were already in that situation, the only thing that would have maybe helped either of them was being with a woman or girl that TRULY loved them and cared for them and stayed with them for at least a year or two before 4/20/99.

Maybe. But he had never experienced something like this before. He could have hated being in a relationship.

When you want something you can't have, it seems like the best thing in the world, but when you have it ... you just move onto the next thing.

Of course this is an entirely different scenario, but the first time I was in a relationship I wanted to kill myself everyday of it. I would feel the same way now. Of course I cannot speak for anyone but myself, especially Eric whom I have never personally known and never will, but I'm not so sure a long term relationship would have 'cured' his need to go on a rampage. Considering all of my research, I could imagine him being abusive and pressuring, things turning sour, him being driven over the edge into maybe doing something drastic in the end anyway, be it going NBK with Dylan or not.

eli27 wrote:

sororityalpha wrote:

Probably the best choice for Eric/Dylan would have been to NOT go to Columbine.

But because they were already in that situation, the only thing that would have maybe helped either of them was being with a woman or girl that TRULY loved them and cared for them and stayed with them for at least a year or two before 4/20/99.

Maybe. But he had never experienced something like this before. He could have hated being in a relationship.

When you want something you can't have, it seems like the best thing in the world, but when you have it ... you just move onto the next thing.

Of course this is an entirely different scenario, but the first time I was in a relationship I wanted to kill myself everyday of it. I would feel the same way now. Of course I cannot speak for anyone but myself, especially Eric whom I have never personally known and never will, but I'm not so sure a long term relationship would have 'cured' his need to go on a rampage. Considering all of my research, I could imagine him being abusive and pressuring, things turning sour, him being driven over the edge into maybe doing something drastic in the end anyway, be it going NBK with Dylan or not.

Eric wrote that "maybe if I get laid that would solve some things" it was obvious that the lack of sex/intimacy played a large role in this. He even said himself that he needs to basically train himself to think like a killer.

well you never know ... having someone you can really trust or talk to or love you for you can really help calm your anger/rage towards others.

I just re-read Erics mental evaluation for his diversion and after all this time it FINALLY sank in: Eric should have been helped. For someone who prides themselves on their ability to lie he was 100% with them about his anger and self esteem issues. I think Eric truly wanted the counselors and his therapist to help him. He knew he couldn't continue to live with it and that it would boil over eventually. NBK and suicide was NOT the best option for Eric, no matter how much his writing makes it seem so. The best choice for Eric was intensive (possibly even inpatient) therapy. Had the court and medical system not failed so miserably the kid could have been helped. Very few people are ever too far gone. He was a depressed and confused child, not Ted Bundy or Charles Manson.

Nirvana92 wrote:

I just re-read Erics mental evaluation for his diversion and after all this time it FINALLY sank in: Eric should have been helped. For someone who prides themselves on their ability to lie he was 100% with them about his anger and self esteem issues. I think Eric truly wanted the counselors and his therapist to help him. He knew he couldn't continue to live with it and that it would boil over eventually. NBK and suicide was NOT the best option for Eric, no matter how much his writing makes it seem so. The best choice for Eric was intensive (possibly even inpatient) therapy. Had the court and medical system not failed so miserably the kid could have been helped. Very few people are ever too far gone. He was a depressed and confused child, not Ted Bundy or Charles Manson.

If it wasn't his "best option" he wouldn't have gone through with it.

Might as well put serial killers into inpatient therapy. That's going to change their outlook on everything.

Ivan wrote:

Nirvana92 wrote:

I just re-read Erics mental evaluation for his diversion and after all this time it FINALLY sank in: Eric should have been helped. For someone who prides themselves on their ability to lie he was 100% with them about his anger and self esteem issues. I think Eric truly wanted the counselors and his therapist to help him. He knew he couldn't continue to live with it and that it would boil over eventually. NBK and suicide was NOT the best option for Eric, no matter how much his writing makes it seem so. The best choice for Eric was intensive (possibly even inpatient) therapy. Had the court and medical system not failed so miserably the kid could have been helped. Very few people are ever too far gone. He was a depressed and confused child, not Ted Bundy or Charles Manson.

If it wasn't his "best option" he wouldn't have gone through with it.

Might as well put serial killers into inpatient therapy. That's going to change their outlook on everything.

No offense but that's an incredibly simple view you have. Eric was put on a medication that causes hypo mania in both children and adults. I've personally been in a hypo manic state before (because of a mis-prescribed antidepressant) and I can assure you that the thoughts you think aren't really your own. There's a very good chance that Eric only decided on NBK because of the medication he was put on.

Also I've been to inpatient facilities twice and I've seen the good they can do. Even the most hardened killer has the period before the "point of no return" where they can get help. Even if it ends up not working its still worth trying. In Erics case they didnt try hard enough and people died because of it. He wasnt a monster like everyone thinks. He was an mentally ill kid with an incredibly low self esteem. He even wrote in his journal that NBK could have been prevented if people were nicer to him. Someone whos "only choice" is murder would never make a statement like that. He may have felt it was toward the end, but that was only after he tried to get help. Like I said before there's plenty of evidence that his medication made his issues worse. He wasnt in a position to make rational choices.

Nirvana92 wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Nirvana92 wrote:

I just re-read Erics mental evaluation for his diversion and after all this time it FINALLY sank in: Eric should have been helped. For someone who prides themselves on their ability to lie he was 100% with them about his anger and self esteem issues. I think Eric truly wanted the counselors and his therapist to help him. He knew he couldn't continue to live with it and that it would boil over eventually. NBK and suicide was NOT the best option for Eric, no matter how much his writing makes it seem so. The best choice for Eric was intensive (possibly even inpatient) therapy. Had the court and medical system not failed so miserably the kid could have been helped. Very few people are ever too far gone. He was a depressed and confused child, not Ted Bundy or Charles Manson.

If it wasn't his "best option" he wouldn't have gone through with it.

Might as well put serial killers into inpatient therapy. That's going to change their outlook on everything.

No offense but that's an incredibly simple view you have. Eric was put on a medication that causes hypo mania in both children and adults. I've personally been in a hypo manic state before (because of a mis-prescribed antidepressant) and I can assure you that the thoughts you think aren't really your own. There's a very good chance that Eric only decided on NBK because of the medication he was put on.

No offense but your views come across as quite idiotic.

- Blaming the medication (I've noticed close relatives of mine that take such medication the same brand; Zoloft and their mood improves) is an extremely convenient way of dispersing the blame -- one that falls solely on Eric. Let's not forget that the relatives of mine fall into the same age-demographic as Eric.

Nirvana92 wrote:

Also I've been to inpatient facilities twice and I've seen the good they can do.

Blah, blah, blah.

Did they prevent you from going out on a shooting spree, or trying to kill hundreds of people? It's quite stupid to assume you can prevent murderers from murdering by upping their medication; if this were true prison wouldn't exist.

Nirvana92 wrote:

Even the most hardened killer has the period before the "point of no return" where they can get help.

Like who? Paul Denyer? Peter Dupas? Ivan Milat? Or how about Timothy McVeigh? All of these killers had a DESIRE to kill from an early age; one that could not be prevented.

Nirvana92 wrote:

Even if it ends up not working its still worth trying. In Erics case they didnt try hard enough and people died because of it.

In Eric's case they didn't succeed because he was beyond help. He was ALWAYS beyond help. Anybody who sits down and plans a devastating bombing at 16/17 years of age cannot be saved. It's as simple as that.

Nirvana92 wrote:

( He wasnt a monster like everyone thinks.

I beg to differ, he coldly killed about 7 kids on his own. By your logic someone who has killed 2 or 3 people isn't a 'monster'.

Nirvana92 wrote:

He was an mentally ill kid with an incredibly low self esteem.

So are a lot of others, they never plan attacks on the public.

Nirvana92 wrote:

He even wrote in his journal that NBK could have been prevented if people were nicer to him.

Typical sociopathic behavior. Blaming other people for his sick thoughts.

Nirvana92 wrote:

Someone whos "only choice" is murder would never make a statement like that. He may have felt it was toward the end, but that was only after he tried to get help. Like I said before there's plenty of evidence that his medication made his issues worse. He wasnt in a position to make rational choices.

Like I said, if he didn't feel it was the 'right choice' he'd have never pulled the trigger. My God, is it really that hard to understand? You act like it wasn't up to him.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], Eric wasn't the pathetic whimp you make him out to be. He had a choice. He bombed his school and (w/ Dylan) killed 13 people, I mean c'mon.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Gotta agree. You can't remove something that's imbedded into a brain that deep with meds/therapy. His rage would've come out in one way or another if NBK hadn't happened.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] It's obvious that being a virgin played a role in this, it's not obvious that it played a large role. Did you ever hear Eric say 'I'm going Columbine because I'm a virgin!!'? No. If he went out and had sex with a prostitute before NBK would it have made a difference? I don't think it would. It's about the way he was treated by the girls he wanted and everybody else. He felt he was a god being wronged, and maybe if he had gotten into some movie style happy as larry romance he would have been content, but that shit just don't happen for someone like that. Can you tell me you believe that had he gotten into a relationship he wouldn't have been abusive in someway? Pressuring, or controlling? That there would have been no friction and it would have gone smoothly? I can't see it personally, and I think a relationship turned sour would have been only more motivation to go shoot some people.

Yes, all good points eli27.

Lets not forget the hypocritical atmosphere in CHS. That certainly was a STRONG factor that drove E/D's desire to blow up and shoot up their school.

eli27 wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], Eric wasn't the pathetic whimp you make him out to be. He had a choice. He bombed his school and (w/ Dylan) killed 13 people, I mean c'mon.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Gotta agree. You can't remove something that's imbedded into a brain that deep with meds/therapy. His rage would've come out in one way or another if NBK hadn't happened.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] It's obvious that being a virgin played a role in this, it's not obvious that it played a large role. Did you ever hear Eric say 'I'm going Columbine because I'm a virgin!!'? No. If he went out and had sex with a prostitute before NBK would it have made a difference? I don't think it would. It's about the way he was treated by the girls he wanted and everybody else. He felt he was a god being wronged, and maybe if he had gotten into some movie style happy as larry romance he would have been content, but that shit just don't happen for someone like that. Can you tell me you believe that had he gotten into a relationship he wouldn't have been abusive in someway? Pressuring, or controlling? That there would have been no friction and it would have gone smoothly? I can't see it personally, and I think a relationship turned sour would have been only more motivation to go shoot some people.

Love kills the demon, that's all I have to say.

eli27 wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], Eric wasn't the pathetic whimp you make him out to be. He had a choice. He bombed his school and (w/ Dylan) killed 13 people, I mean c'mon.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Gotta agree. You can't remove something that's imbedded into a brain that deep with meds/therapy. His rage would've come out in one way or another if NBK hadn't happened.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] It's obvious that being a virgin played a role in this, it's not obvious that it played a large role. Did you ever hear Eric say 'I'm going Columbine because I'm a virgin!!'? No. If he went out and had sex with a prostitute before NBK would it have made a difference? I don't think it would. It's about the way he was treated by the girls he wanted and everybody else. He felt he was a god being wronged, and maybe if he had gotten into some movie style happy as larry romance he would have been content, but that shit just don't happen for someone like that. Can you tell me you believe that had he gotten into a relationship he wouldn't have been abusive in someway? Pressuring, or controlling? That there would have been no friction and it would have gone smoothly? I can't see it personally, and I think a relationship turned sour would have been only more motivation to go shoot some people.

I'm not saying that the "evil" could be removed. What I'm saying is the medication magnified his feelings so they boiled over from fantasy to reality. Go read up on hypo mania. Eric exhibited many signs of the medication making his OCD worse. Unfortunately his OCD symptoms went hand in hand with his violent thoughts. Brooks even claimed Eric went on and off his meds to gain "greater self awareness". SSRIs like Luvox are serotonin based drugs like Psilocybin and LSD. The molecule is just alterd slightly so it doesnt have full psychoactive effects. Even then if someone is sensitive or allergic to them (like myself) it can cause a whole mess of additional problems. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but I don't think you understand just how bad these drugs can fuck with someone's head. There's plenty of evidence for it out there and Columbine was the event that really brought it to the publics attention.

Yes Eric ended up choosing to kill people, but there was a point where NBK was just a form of escapism for him and Dylan. Before that though he could have been helped and he obviously wanted it. Unlike Dylan he answered 100% truthfully on his mental evaluation. A Sociopth WOULD NOT DO THAT. Lying to a therapist or a person in a position of power and seeing how much you can get away with is a sociopaths dream game. Eric may have come across as a monster at times but he was still a child. Even an 18 year old isnt fully capable of thinking ahead into the future. Maybe Eric would have lashed out eventually even with good treatment but there's a chance it wouldn't have been NBK sized. Ultimately Eric should have been given better treatment when he was open to it. Unfortunately we will never know if it would have worked or not.

Apparently many mass shooters were on some kind of medication at one time or another before their rampages.