The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris

What information do you *realistically* believe we will obtain when the depositions become available regarding the Harris family? What are you most interested in learning?

Sue Klebold admitted in her book that she didn't believe the depositions were helpful to anyone involved; could this mean there won't be much new material to be gained from them?

Even if nothing new comes to light from the Depositions, I still want to see them.  As this would be the only first hand info directly from the Harris's and not just rumors and speculation.

Sue Klebold's book and various interviews have given us a small glimpse into Dylan's life. We have an idea to how Dylan was behaving and acting before 4/20. We even know what his last verbal word was to his mother before he left their house that morning.  

I would love to know what Eric's behavior was like leading up to the shootings. I want to know if Wayne or Kathy thought everything was perfectly fine with him and that he was finally on track. OR if they had picked up on any red flags since Wayne had documented troubles Eric had previously. I want to know what the Harris's hindsight is like. If they have looked back and said "Ah, that was something we should have paid more attention to".  I want to know if Eric had them fooled completely or if they knew something was wrong and just didn't act soon enough.  The Depositions will not be released for several years. The last I heard was they possibly will be released in 2023?  So the chance of any new info no matter how slim is the reason most will gladly wait.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Even if nothing new comes to light from the Depositions, I still want to see them.  As this would be the only first hand info directly from the Harris's and not just rumors and speculation.

Sue Klebold's book and various interviews have given us a small glimpse into Dylan's life. We have an idea to how Dylan was behaving and acting before 4/20. We even know what his last verbal word was to his mother before he left their house that morning.  

I would love to know what Eric's behavior was like leading up to the shootings. I want to know if Wayne or Kathy thought everything was perfectly fine with him and that he was finally on track. OR if they had picked up on any red flags since Wayne had documented troubles Eric had previously. I want to know what the Harris's hindsight is like. If they have looked back and said "Ah, that was something we should have paid more attention to".  I want to know if Eric had them fooled completely or if they knew something was wrong and just didn't act soon enough.  The Depositions will not be released for several years. The last I heard was they possibly will be released in 2023?  So the chance of any new info no matter how slim is the reason most will gladly wait.

I'm in the same boat regarding what the Harris's may or may not have known/suspected about Eric. The fact that Wayne had a journal about him shows that he at least cared enough to worry about his future, performance in school, and place in the community.

I wonder if he distanced himself noticeably from them towards the end (as he suggested in the Basement Tapes). I wonder what his last words were to them. You're right, even if there isn't "new" info, just hearing things from their perspective and how they conducted themselves during the depositions would be fascinating.

Do you think we will get the full depositions or just a summary like the basement tapes one included in the 11k? We're talking about hours of depositions. And in which format are they gonna be presented? Not all of them were transcribed, so maybe audio/video recordings? Anyway, I'm sure by the time they release them, a lot stuff will be "lost"…

Rocky Mountain News wrote:

The latest material to be added to the room involved the depositions of the gunmen's parents and Brown. Not all of the depositions had been transcribed, so computer disks from the court reporter were turned over, according to the court order.

This is what Lauren Townsend's mother said about the depositions by the way, she released a statement on behalf of all five victims' families that witnessed them.

Dawn Anna wrote:

"We were not satisfied with many of the answers they gave, and we left the depositions shaking our heads in wonder at some of the things they said. But at least we got some answers."

Anna said Thursday the same questions went through the minds of the families of the dead students.
Anna said they included: "Were the shootings the act of a random unpredictable blowup by these two? Were there warning signs that alerted the Klebolds and Harrises about what their sons were doing?"

"We believe we know the answers to these questions, but because of the court's order, we must now live with the almost unbearable frustration of not being able to tell anyone else," she said.

Gonz wrote:

Do you think we will get the full depositions or just a summary like the basement tapes one included in the 11k? We're talking about hours of depositions. And in which format are they gonna be presented? Not all of them were transcribed, so maybe audio/video recordings? Anyway, I'm sure by the time they release them, a lot stuff will be "lost"…

Rocky Mountain News wrote:

The latest material to be added to the room involved the depositions of the gunmen's parents and Brown. Not all of the depositions had been transcribed, so computer disks from the court reporter were turned over, according to the court order.

This is what Lauren Townsend's mother said about the depositions by the way, she released a statement on behalf of all five victims' families that witnessed them.

Dawn Anna wrote:

"We were not satisfied with many of the answers they gave, and we left the depositions shaking our heads in wonder at some of the things they said. But at least we got some answers."


Anna said Thursday the same questions went through the minds of the families of the dead students.
Anna said they included: "Were the shootings the act of a random unpredictable blowup by these two? Were there warning signs that alerted the Klebolds and Harrises about what their sons were doing?"

"We believe we know the answers to these questions, but because of the court's order, we must now live with the almost unbearable frustration of not being able to tell anyone else," she said.

Wow, great info, thanks. I've never seen that quote from Lauren's mom but it puts things in a very different perspective for me. I'm not sure what form the depositions will be in when released, but I'd bet it will be only the parts that were transcribed. I would be really interested in audio, however.

I don't think there will be a ton of shocking new information but probably some interesting tid bits here and there.

I don't know what we will see, but I don't think we will get any real answers so to speak. The ones who knew the reason for the massacre are long gone. I think we will get some better info from the families on the personalities of the boys leading up to it and anything they noticed, which may or may not be anything.

[quote="Gonz"]Do you think we will get the full depositions or just a summary like the basement tapes one included in the 11k? We're talking about hours of depositions. And in which format are they gonna be presented? Not all of them were transcribed, so maybe audio/video recordings? Anyway, I'm sure by the time they release them, a lot stuff will be "lost"…


While I would love to believe that we will get the Depositions in its entirety upon release, realistically we will likely receive several small excerpts. As with everything Columbine related, we are only given certain pieces of the puzzle.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] too true about the "pieces of the puzzle" comment. It feels like we never get the full story with Columbine.

I can draw a parallel to the massacre itself- different parties all held different pieces to the puzzle (police, school, friends, parents) and yet no one was able to put them all together.

ETA: unrelated, but since we're talking about unreleased evidence, I'm still so angry at E&D for not sending copies of the basement tapes to different news organizations like they said they wanted to

Littlelo wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] too true about the "pieces of the puzzle" comment. It feels like we never get the full story with Columbine.

I can draw a parallel to the massacre itself- different parties all held different pieces to the puzzle (police, school, friends, parents) and yet no one was able to put them all together.

ETA: unrelated, but since we're talking about unreleased evidence, I'm still so angry at E&D for not sending copies of the basement tapes to different news organizations like they said they wanted to

After 18 years of countless dedicated Columbine researchers, one would think that someone would have stumbled across a copy of the Basement tapes and released it by now... Sadly no one has.  I don't think we are meant to have all the pieces of Columbine. Which is why even after 18 years it has refused to go away, also why I doubt it ever will. People want to know why it happened, why so many chances slipped by to stop it. People seeking these answers is why JeffCo will be forever haunted by the ghosts of Columbine.

Littlelo wrote:

It feels like we never get the full story with Columbine.

"Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown?"

STK wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

It feels like we never get the full story with Columbine.

"Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown?"

I know this was not directed towards me, but I feel compelled to answer. I can only speak for myself, but I want to know the reason two kids chose to plot and murder. I want to know the reason E&D became so cold and cruel as to taunt and gun down innocent people. I want to know why they decided to end their lives and those of others instead of graduating and moving on.

Mainly I want to know how so many people had the chance to intervene yet for some reason failed to do so. This falls most heavily on JeffCo and the parents, but we also can't leave out Eric's psychologist Kevin Albert. I have said this before, I think Eric knew something was wrong and that he needed help. He answered truthfully when asked on paperwork if he had suicidal or homicidal thoughts, he checked yes to both. He was also truthful when asked about being depressed. If he was such an expert deceiver, why didn't he also lie on the paperwork? If he was so concerned about trying to fake his way thru everything, why would he take a chance on getting found out by being honest about his issues?

I really feel like he wanted help but everyone involved just looked at the surface and never tried to get past Eric's intelligent, calm, everything is going fine front. His doctor pretty much looked at him assuming he was ok, yet kept upping his med's. That leads me to believe that Eric had discussed still having problems with his doctors. Yet they tried to medicate it away instead of getting to the underlying cause of his anger and depression.  In my opinion Eric just got to a point where he no longer cared anymore. What was the point if no one else seemed too? I would LOVE to see Eric's case notes from his sessions with Kevin Albert. Or just anything from Kevin Albert regarding Eric.

Dylan is another story altogether. I honestly think he was so far gone in his mental illusions and depression that he wasn't aware of how badly he needed help. Almost like he was incapable of seeking help for the simple reason that in his twisted mind he didn't feel like he needed it. In his opinion it was everyone else who needed help. He didn't feel human, and was in pain and saw death as the end to it.  On another note, Dylan in my thoughts was a far better manipulator then Eric. As he had most everyone fooled. His family and friends were in shock after learning he was a part of it. While Eric's anger was there for everyone to see, and no one was really all that surprised when they realized he was involved.

So there is a reason for everything. There was a reason for Eric's anger and Dylan's depression, but knowing and understanding their reasons are a different matter. We may never know all the reasons behind Columbine, but we do have a very vague idea. The issue with Columbine is that 18 years later we still have more questions then answers.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

STK wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

It feels like we never get the full story with Columbine.

"Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown?"

I know this was not directed towards me, but I feel compelled to answer. I can only speak for myself, but I want to know the reason two kids chose to plot and murder. I want to know the reason E&D became so cold and cruel as to taunt and gun down innocent people. I want to know why they decided to end their lives and those of others instead of graduating and moving on.

Mainly I want to know how so many people had the chance to intervene yet for some reason failed to do so. This falls most heavily on JeffCo and the parents, but we also can't leave out Eric's psychologist Kevin Albert. I have said this before, I think Eric knew something was wrong and that he needed help. He answered truthfully when asked on paperwork if he had suicidal or homicidal thoughts, he checked yes to both. He was also truthful when asked about being depressed. If he was such an expert deceiver, why didn't he also lie on the paperwork? If he was so concerned about trying to fake his way thru everything, why would he take a chance on getting found out by being honest about his issues?

I really feel like he wanted help but everyone involved just looked at the surface and never tried to get past Eric's intelligent, calm, everything is going fine front. His doctor pretty much looked at him assuming he was ok, yet kept upping his med's. That leads me to believe that Eric had discussed still having problems with his doctors. Yet they tried to medicate it away instead of getting to the underlying cause of his anger and depression.  In my opinion Eric just got to a point where he no longer cared anymore. What was the point if no one else seemed too? I would LOVE to see Eric's case notes from his sessions with Kevin Albert. Or just anything from Kevin Albert regarding Eric.

Your thoughts on Eric intrigue me. I always thought of him as manipulative; and while part of me still does, I never stopped to think about the times he was honest. The questionnaire he filled out was something he could have so easily lied on, but instead he told truthfully how he was feeling. My mind is spinning a little right now, because this is not something I thought about before.

Littlelo wrote:

I want to know why they decided to end their lives and those of others instead of graduating and moving on.

Okay.

Littlelo wrote:

Mainly I want to know how so many people had the chance to intervene yet for some reason failed to do so.

You think a bunch of people who ignored a jewish kid having his hair set on fire or freshmen being used as bowling balls and beaten up in halls are going to care? What's worse is those kind of issues were discreetly swept under the rug.

Littlelo wrote:

This falls most heavily on JeffCo and the parents.

Sure , but I'll give the same answer as above. You think a bunch of fireworks set at night or paintballed garages or glue on handles/locks or some internet 'threats' in a time where internet users were seen as geeky losers are going to gain the full attention of authorities?

Littlelo wrote:

...but we also can't leave out Eric's psychologist Kevin Albert.

Blame is easy after the facts have been set. Sure , he could've done more. Do you believe your mother is capable of going in someone's house and hacking them to pieces? Maybe she can. You'll surely know after all is said and done.  I'm sure neither did he or any adults nearby had any idea. These small red flags weren't so glaring at the time compared to after 17 years where we have the full facts neatly put together. All they had were small , very spread apart warning signs that not a single adult could put together at the time. If all those adults didn't have a hunch, what makes you think you could've?

Littlelo wrote:

I have said this before, I think Eric knew something was wrong and that he needed help. He answered truthfully when asked on paperwork if he had suicidal or homicidal thoughts, he checked yes to both. He was also truthful when asked about being depressed. If he was such an expert deceiver, why didn't he also lie on the paperwork? If he was so concerned about trying to fake his way thru everything, why would he take a chance on getting found out by being honest about his issues?

Because he was a roller coaster both in emotions and in thinking.(ex: For someone who talks about murdering people for a year , he surely 'showed them' by walking past class rooms with plenty of targets or changing his beliefs as he himself claimed) Someone with a strong conviction will do everything possible to fulfill whatever plan they set for themselves... like Cho. Having doubts leads to chaos... just like his and Dylan's movements by the end of the rampage.

Littlelo wrote:

In my opinion Eric just got to a point where he no longer cared anymore. What was the point if no one else seemed too?

Actually he cared too much for his own good. The hatred directed at himself was one of the most powerful weapons he had to move onto the killings of both his peers and himself. I do agree that being ignored or seen as less than contributed heavily.

Littlelo wrote:

Your thoughts on Eric intrigue me. I always thought of him as manipulative; and while part of me still does, I never stopped to think about the times he was honest. The questionnaire he filled out was something he could have so easily lied on, but instead he told truthfully how he was feeling. My mind is spinning a little right now, because this is not something I thought about before.

Definitely check out some of the older threads on here. There have been a lot of in depth discussions about this subject in the past year, and a lot of interesting perspectives on it.

As far as Eric and wanting help for his mental health issues, I do think at first he was honest and hopeful for help. I think he admitted he was having issues and tried meds and therapy. But I think after he tried it he realized it wasn't helping him. Like others who go to therapy and try meds he then gave up

He didn't take meds like he was supposed to, he started to lie his way thru his therapy (at least in my opinion) and his views started to get darker and darker.

I think by the end of his life, he was just as negative as Dylan as far as outlook. I don't think it started out that way, but I do think it ended up that way

It would be interesting to see what Albert thought of Eric but in a way I don't think what he will say will be the actual truth. I think everyone in the families saw both Eric and Dylan with rose colored glasses. They may have thought there might be some trouble there but for the most part I think they just saw them as regular teens. So I think the depositions will mostly be showing how these people thought they saw the boys. Not how they were. There might be some hindsight affecting things but I am not sure what I will be able to get from them. I still want to see them nonetheless however.

Magnaphoria wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

I want to know why they decided to end their lives and those of others instead of graduating and moving on.

Okay.

Littlelo wrote:

Mainly I want to know how so many people had the chance to intervene yet for some reason failed to do so.

You think a bunch of people who ignored a jewish kid having his hair set on fire or freshmen being used as bowling balls and beaten up in halls are going to care? What's worse is those kind of issues were discreetly swept under the rug.

Littlelo wrote:

This falls most heavily on JeffCo and the parents.

Sure , but I'll give the same answer as above. You think a bunch of fireworks set at night or paintballed garages or glue on handles/locks or some internet 'threats' in a time where internet users were seen as geeky losers are going to gain the full attention of authorities?

Littlelo wrote:

...but we also can't leave out Eric's psychologist Kevin Albert.

Blame is easy after the facts have been set. Sure , he could've done more. Do you believe your mother is capable of going in someone's house and hacking them to pieces? Maybe she can. You'll surely know after all is said and done.  I'm sure neither did he or any adults nearby had any idea. These small red flags weren't so glaring at the time compared to after 17 years where we have the full facts neatly put together. All they had were small , very spread apart warning signs that not a single adult could put together at the time. If all those adults didn't have a hunch, what makes you think you could've?

Littlelo wrote:

I have said this before, I think Eric knew something was wrong and that he needed help. He answered truthfully when asked on paperwork if he had suicidal or homicidal thoughts, he checked yes to both. He was also truthful when asked about being depressed. If he was such an expert deceiver, why didn't he also lie on the paperwork? If he was so concerned about trying to fake his way thru everything, why would he take a chance on getting found out by being honest about his issues?

Because he was a roller coaster both in emotions and in thinking.(ex: For someone who talks about murdering people for a year , he surely 'showed them' by walking past class rooms with plenty of targets or changing his beliefs as he himself claimed) Someone with a strong conviction will do everything possible to fulfill whatever plan they set for themselves... like Cho. Having doubts leads to chaos... just like his and Dylan's movements by the end of the rampage.

Littlelo wrote:

In my opinion Eric just got to a point where he no longer cared anymore. What was the point if no one else seemed too?

Actually he cared too much for his own good. The hatred directed at himself was one of the most powerful weapons he had to move onto the killings of both his peers and himself. I do agree that being ignored or seen as less than contributed heavily.

These are actually snippets from my post that Littelo had quoted, so I will respond.

I wholeheartedly agree that bullying at Columbine was ignored and downplayed as much as humanly possible by the school. For whatever reason certain people within the student body were given free passes, and were never held accountable for their actions. After the shootings occurred,  no one wanted to except their part in the tragedy. No one wanted to admit that their negligence may have added fuel to Eric and Dylan's fire.

Would I be able to spot the red flags?  As a mommy of two small children 7 and 5, I hope they would be able to come to me or their Dad with any issues they might have down the road.  I hope I would be able to notice if my child was so lost in depression and self loathing that they were thinking about suicide. I hope I would see the hurt and burning rage in my child soon enough to seek help that might actually make an impact. Eric's parents apparently picked up on something otherwise he wouldn't have been in therapy. Maybe Eric's psychologist missed the bigger picture, missed the deeper issues. Maybe by that point Eric didn't want to be or couldn't be that easily helped anymore.

You also mentioned the word "blame", as a matter of fact I do blame several people for Columbine. First and foremost I fully blame Eric and Dylan. After all they were the ones who planned and then carried out the deed. Taking innocent lives is never right. No matter the reasons behind it, no matter their rage and depression. Do I feel sympathy for Eric and Dylan? Yes. I feel sorry for the lives they took that day, including their own.  I feel sorry they didn't get the chance to grow up and have a life, or experience the world. I feel sorry for the ones wounded both physically and mentally. I feel sorry for the family and friends who were left trying to piece their lives back together afterwards.

Second I do blame JeffCo. They had numerous opportunities to stop what happened given the Brown's reported Eric way before Columbine became a sad reality.  Why the dots were never fully connected is anyone's guess. But given JeffCo's desperate attempts of covering their own ass following 4/20, makes me believe it was mainly missed due to shoddy police work. Why else would JeffCo go to such extreme lengths to bury the Brown's report and deny that it ever existed? Why else would they try to divert attention off the report they swore had never been filed by saying Brooks was involved? For one simple reason, the department cared more about covering up after themselves then uncovering the truth.  

While I do agree that hindsight is 20/20, to say that we have the full facts of Columbine neatly put together is a ludicrous statement. JeffCo lied and backtracked so much that I doubt anyone involved with the case knew what the true facts were anymore. The public mostly received bold faced lies and half truths. We will never have the full picture of Columbine.

STK wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

It feels like we never get the full story with Columbine.

"Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown?"

Is that from the song "I, Brenda Spencer, do not particularly enjoy the 1st day of the week, known as Monday"?

InsaneIntruder wrote:

STK wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

It feels like we never get the full story with Columbine.

"Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown?"

Is that from the song "I, Brenda Spencer, do not particularly enjoy the 1st day of the week, known as Monday"?

Yes.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
With all due respect I am not sure if anything the H&K parents said would have satisfied some of the victims families, at least not at this point. Most of the victim's relatives were very angry, which of course they had a reason to be, and for some years held the H &K parents very responsible and went after them full bore for some years in lawsuits and the media
One of those sets of parents were Lauren's Mom and stepdad. Her stepdad even said in 13 families that he holds them in some responsibility but there is nothing he can do about it even though it will drive him crazy for as long as he lives.

There were a few families like the Scotts' that did not take that path even in the early days.

.

Rocky Mountain News wrote:

The latest material to be added to the room involved the depositions of the gunmen's parents and Brown. Not all of the depositions had been transcribed, so computer disks from the court reporter were turned over, according to the court order.

This is what Lauren Townsend's mother said about the depositions by the way, she released a statement on behalf of all five victims' families that witnessed them.

Dawn Anna wrote:

"We were not satisfied with many of the answers they gave, and we left the depositions shaking our heads in wonder at some of the things they said. But at least we got some answers."


Anna said Thursday the same questions went through the minds of the families of the dead students.
Anna said they included: "Were the shootings the act of a random unpredictable blowup by these two? Were there warning signs that alerted the Klebolds and Harrises about what their sons were doing?"

"We believe we know the answers to these questions, but because of the court's order, we must now live with the almost unbearable frustration of not being able to tell anyone else," she said.

Sorry old post, but the question about the depositions got me interested in seeing what has been discussed on the board already about them and I saw this.... I wish I could find the original article, which I'm sure I will be able to but when they say Brown are they talking about Judy or Randy? Why on earth would they have to be deposed?

Rocky Mountain News wrote:

The latest material to be added to the room involved the depositions of the gunmen's parents and Brown.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Rocky Mountain News wrote:

The latest material to be added to the room involved the depositions of the gunmen's parents and Brown. Not all of the depositions had been transcribed, so computer disks from the court reporter were turned over, according to the court order.

This is what Lauren Townsend's mother said about the depositions by the way, she released a statement on behalf of all five victims' families that witnessed them.

Dawn Anna wrote:

"We were not satisfied with many of the answers they gave, and we left the depositions shaking our heads in wonder at some of the things they said. But at least we got some answers."


Anna said Thursday the same questions went through the minds of the families of the dead students.
Anna said they included: "Were the shootings the act of a random unpredictable blowup by these two? Were there warning signs that alerted the Klebolds and Harrises about what their sons were doing?"

"We believe we know the answers to these questions, but because of the court's order, we must now live with the almost unbearable frustration of not being able to tell anyone else," she said.

Sorry old post, but the question about the depositions got me interested in seeing what has been discussed on the board already about them and I saw this.... I wish I could find the original article, which I'm sure I will be able to but when they say Brown are they talking about Judy or Randy? Why on earth would they have to be deposed?

Rocky Mountain News wrote:

The latest material to be added to the room involved the depositions of the gunmen's parents and Brown.

I am sure it had a lot to do with how pushy the Browns were to involve themselves in the massacre in everyway. Forcing their way into the tape showings and trying to make their "friend" Sue give interviews.

They were involved with the backstory of Eric though so perhaps they had to give information on that

Lizpuff wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Rocky Mountain News wrote:

The latest material to be added to the room involved the depositions of the gunmen's parents and Brown. Not all of the depositions had been transcribed, so computer disks from the court reporter were turned over, according to the court order.

This is what Lauren Townsend's mother said about the depositions by the way, she released a statement on behalf of all five victims' families that witnessed them.

Dawn Anna wrote:

"We were not satisfied with many of the answers they gave, and we left the depositions shaking our heads in wonder at some of the things they said. But at least we got some answers."


Anna said Thursday the same questions went through the minds of the families of the dead students.
Anna said they included: "Were the shootings the act of a random unpredictable blowup by these two? Were there warning signs that alerted the Klebolds and Harrises about what their sons were doing?"

"We believe we know the answers to these questions, but because of the court's order, we must now live with the almost unbearable frustration of not being able to tell anyone else," she said.

Sorry old post, but the question about the depositions got me interested in seeing what has been discussed on the board already about them and I saw this.... I wish I could find the original article, which I'm sure I will be able to but when they say Brown are they talking about Judy or Randy? Why on earth would they have to be deposed?

Rocky Mountain News wrote:

The latest material to be added to the room involved the depositions of the gunmen's parents and Brown.

I am sure it had a lot to do with how pushy the Browns were to involve themselves in the massacre in everyway.  Forcing their way into the tape showings and trying to make their "friend" Sue give interviews.

They were involved with the backstory of Eric though so perhaps they had to give information on that

Perhaps yes, but for me at least I am so not interested in hearing her complain about Eric.. I want to hear from Wayne and Kathy.

To this day when I think of her going to Sue's house on 4/20 and telling her about Eric's website then claiming she assumed they knew about it because Eric was arrested gets me SO mad. Number 1, not the time lady, number 2 WHY would DYLAN be arrested!!! Also if it was for the rebel missions, guess what they should have arrested Zach too. I do however agree with something Brooks said and I am paraphrasing, that if his parents got to see the Basement Tapes then a friend of their should have been able to. Maybe Brooks or Nate? They could have shed light on some things?

Also Judy perpetuates the Rachel and Dylan unrequited love shit and I'm like UGH, people it's not a Shakespearean tragedy, real people died.

Judy and Sue stopped being friends because she wanted to force her to speak to the victim's families.

I have said it before but I really feel these two (Judy and Randy) need to take a back seat. It really seems like they are letting this incident take over their lives and it makes me a bit sad. As small as their role was they have not moved on at all

Lizpuff wrote:

Judy and Sue stopped being friends because she wanted to force her to speak to the victim's families.

I have said it before but I really feel these two (Judy and Randy) need to take a back seat.  It really seems like they are letting this incident take over their lives and it makes me a bit sad.  As small as their role was they have not moved on at all

I agree. The Brown family is milking this for all but it’s worth.

I never looked at Amazon but did Randy or Judy ever write a review on A Mother’s Reckoning ? We know Randy doesn’t like Cullens

Screamingophelia wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Judy and Sue stopped being friends because she wanted to force her to speak to the victim's families.

I have said it before but I really feel these two (Judy and Randy) need to take a back seat.  It really seems like they are letting this incident take over their lives and it makes me a bit sad.  As small as their role was they have not moved on at all

I agree. The Brown family is milking this for all but it’s worth.

I never looked at Amazon but did  Randy or Judy  ever write a review on A Mother’s  Reckoning ? We know Randy  doesn’t like Cullens

All the reviews I saw of Randy's were on Cullenbine. He was quite active for a while mostly arguing with other readers on facts of the case. Alluding to his evidence but never giving anything up. Last I looked (maybe 6 months or a year ago) he had been inactive for a while.

Harris & Mauser [1 Hour Meeting] July 15 2009 (from Walking in Daniel's Shoes):

We met the Harrises at 6 p.m. on July 15 at the same Friends Meeting Hall where I had met with Colkitt. First we all gathered outside the church briefly, acknowledged each other with some curt pleasantries, then walked inside. We found ourselves in the church sanctuary, a w ell-lit, long, narrow room with wooden floors and lots of windows. We quickly agreed to move out of this larger room into a cozy alcove on the west side, where w e could sit on wooden benches facing each other. Colkitt then left, saying there was no need for his participation.

Once alone, Wayne Harris smiled and said, “Nice to meet you,” and extended his hand. Linda thanked them for coming. Kathy Harris handed Linda a basket of flowers. The Harrises quickly spoke up, expressing condolences and regret for what their son had done to Daniel, saying it was nothing they had ever taught or condoned. We likewise expressed our condolences for their loss and the pain they
had to endure, just as I had done in my letter.

Mr. Harris struck us as intelligent and w ell spoken. He was genial and seemed open to our questions. His precise speech matched our preconceived notions of someone who had been a career military man. (He had been a pilot in the Air Force.) But we both had pictured him as a larger, deeper-voiced, more overbearing, authoritarian man, perhaps because of our preconceptions of the Harris household
and of his military background. But he seemed to be none of those things—he seemed a more gentle, soft spoken man than expected. Mrs. Harris seemed more shy than he, but like him, was cordial. Nothing about them seemed greatly out of the ordinary, nothing that would lead one to easily and conveniently conclude, “Well, no wonder that kid was messed up.”

We spoke about our families. Mr. Harris talked with pride about his elder son, Kevin, about how well he was doing. Naturally I wondered whether Eric felt overshadowed by and inferior to his elder brother. I also reminded myself, though, how many parents show favor toward one child, and it usually doesn’t result in the overlooked child becoming a murderer.

The Harrises seemed mystified by what had happened to Eric. They seemed to rather readily accept that perhaps Eric was a psychopath, but indicated they didn’t know how he became one. They claimed Eric “fooled them” and fooled the psychologist who was treating him. They felt misled by the psychologist, who they felt had regarded Eric’s problems as minor.

In response to a question about whether they were a “dinner table family,” they claimed they ate many meals together as a family. They insisted they were never cruel to Eric. Both had jobs, but Mrs. Harris insisted they were always “available” for Eric.

Eric’s parents didn’t seem to think they missed any red flags. But they did share a few things about their son that seemed to perhaps be signs of something being awry. They admitted that Eric seemed to have intense reactions to being slighted by anyone. They revealed Eric was so mad once that he slammed his fist into a brick wall and scraped his knuckles badly. I wondered to myself whether they
considered that abnormal and of concern. I wondered whether outward displays of emotion were discouraged in their household and whether they were tightly wound parents who preferred to shun such outbursts rather than deal with them.

Mr. Harris acknowledged that Eric was probably self-conscious about the fact he had a chest abnormality that made his chest appear slightly caved in. He said Eric was upset that a recent operation on his chest hadn’t seemed to help it much, though he didn’t think Eric’s self-consciousness was something that led to his mental dysfunction.

The Harrises admitted Eric informed them he was not interested in joining any clubs at Columbine. That revelation was particularly disturbing to me. It’s not that it would have been an obvious sign of something ominous, but it made me wonder if it should have concerned them more, given his lack of friends and his known depression. I couldn’t help but conclude these parents didn’t value social interaction very highly. After all, they didn’t seem terribly outgoing themselves.

Linda asked Mr. Harris if Eric seemed overly fond of weaponry. He responded that he did not, but admitted that Eric subscribed to a gun magazine, adding that he thought he only did so to help him understand the video game Doom more readily. I wondered how the heck a detailed knowledge of guns would aid one in a computer game involving fantasy.

MISSING SIGNS

Mrs. Harris shared that Eric had made no plans for fall 1999, despite her insistence that he either find a job or be registered for school. She seemed somewhat unclear about whether Eric had taken any college entrance examinations. It seemed odd that she would not remember, but she added she was thinking of community college as an option for him, which would not have required the exams. Still, I felt it was not a good sign to have a depressed yet intelligent teen making no post graduation plans. The Harrises thought their son might have been manipulating them, holding off their demands for future planning by expressing interest in the Marines.

These accounts may have signaled the Harrises had a troubled teen, but even together they might not have been overwhelming clues that Eric could become a mass murderer. I would not automatically think of a teen who breaks into a car, has an interest in guns and violent video games, and doesn’t belong to school clubs, as being a candidate for committing mass murder. If American society thought those traits were evidence of a mass murderer, we’d be warning an awful lot of parents of potential trouble and putting thousands of teens in this country under surveillance.

But there were other signs that should have raised a red flag, such as Eric’s depression and his parents’ acknowledgment that he had few friends. He cunningly refused to let his parents into his disturbed world, but to me it seemed the Harrises didn’t take the time to look more deeply into his life and weren’t intrusive enough to become aware of the pipe bombs and guns.

I asked if they would help the world by talking publicly about the signs they missed in Eric, but the Harrises indicated they felt too vulnerable to speak with the media and didn’t think they could endure it. I continue to believe it’s tragic they have not spoken publicly, but I agree that anyone in their situation would be “eaten alive” by direct media exposure. I don’t believe the Harrises’ personas could have handled that kind of intense media inquiry.

Anything the Harrises would have said would have been questioned by most people as self-serving and defensive. Many people would not be satisfied unless they capitulated and said they were totally at fault. By not speaking publicly in any way after the massacre, and by not speaking in any helpful way with law enforcement, they had already lost practically any chance of earning the benefit of the public’s doubt.

DUPES?

Were Linda and I naive and too “easy” on the Harrises? Were we simply lied to by them? I’m sure some people w ill say we were. If that w as the case, so be it, but we are not as cynical as those who would insist we were deluded by the Harrises. We are fairly good judges of character and believe we’d know if someone were overtly lying. The Harrises did not strike us as calculating or devious people. If
anything, we felt they seemed rather hapless and oblivious. We concluded they likely were not aware enough, engaged enough, or perceptive enough to understand what was going on with their son.

Many other parents could not have easily predicted the viciousness that resided within Eric Harris. But they were negligent for not knowing about Eric’s Web site, for not noticing the weaponry stashed in their home, and for not doing more to encourage positive social interaction. At the same time, how many American parents can say they know a lot about their kids’ internet usage? How many closely monitor their teens’ rooms? How many do a lot to encourage their teens’ social lives? Many do, but many do not.

The Harrises at least seemed to have some minimal level of involvement in their son’s life and were getting mental health counseling for him. But their parenting style did not seem to rise to the level of heroic, nor did it seem adequate enough to address his mental illness. They blamed that on Eric’s psychologist, but I believe parents also have to take responsibility for comprehending and addressing their child’s mental wellness, just as they do their child’s physical wellness.

The Harrises did not seem like callous or cruel people, but they also did not seem like overly empathetic or expressive people. We concluded they were not evil or totally disconnected parents, but they also did not strike us as a couple w ho were highly affectionate or emotionally connected to their child.

At one point I was a bit frustrated by what I thought was a lack of any acknowledgment of failure on the part of the parents, asking the Harrises, “So there is nothing we can learn from this? Were no mistakes made?” They strongly implied there were none.

One observation that struck Linda was that they did not seem to second-guess themselves to any extent. She believed that if her child had shown signs of concern similar to those shown by Eric, she’d still be questioning herself. That just didn’t seem to be the case with the Harrises. They seemed to write it all off as largely unpreventable and the result of Eric’s mental illness.

At the end of our meeting, Linda told the Harrises that she forgave their son.

That seemed to please them. She later told me she felt uncomfortable extending forgiveness to the parents, because Eric was the one who committed the crime, and because the Harrises didn’t ask for her forgiveness. Besides, she felt somewhat ambiguous about them. I felt the same way. That’s why I extended no statement offering forgiveness. Nonetheless, at the end of our meeting, Linda wished them peace, and I did the same.

We talked with them for about an hour. I feel better for having met them and looking them in the eye. They did not seem monstrous, maybe just all-too-human. It was yet another part of the healing process. It did not provide an answer to the critical question of “Why?” but I never expected it would. It did provide some clues and a small glimpse into the lives of the people who were closest to Eric.

sororityalpha wrote:

Harris & Mauser [1 Hour Meeting] July 15 2009 (from Walking in Daniel's Shoes):

We met the Harrises at 6 p.m. on July 15 at the same Friends Meeting Hall where I had met with Colkitt. First we all gathered outside the church briefly, acknowledged each other with some curt pleasantries, then walked inside. We found ourselves in the church sanctuary, a w ell-lit, long, narrow room with wooden floors and lots of windows. We quickly agreed to move out of this larger room into a cozy alcove on the west side, where w e could sit on wooden benches facing each other. Colkitt then left, saying there was no need for his participation.

Once alone, Wayne Harris smiled and said, “Nice to meet you,” and extended his hand. Linda thanked them for coming. Kathy Harris handed Linda a basket of flowers. The Harrises quickly spoke up, expressing condolences and regret for what their son had done to Daniel, saying it was nothing they had ever taught or condoned. We likewise expressed our condolences for their loss and the pain they
had to endure, just as I had done in my letter.

Mr. Harris struck us as intelligent and w ell spoken. He was genial and seemed open to our questions. His precise speech matched our preconceived notions of someone who had been a career military man. (He had been a pilot in the Air Force.) But we both had pictured him as a larger, deeper-voiced, more overbearing, authoritarian man, perhaps because of our preconceptions of the Harris household
and of his military background. But he seemed to be none of those things—he seemed a more gentle, soft spoken man than expected. Mrs. Harris seemed more shy than he, but like him, was cordial. Nothing about them seemed greatly out of the ordinary, nothing that would lead one to easily and conveniently conclude, “Well, no wonder that kid was messed up.”

We spoke about our families. Mr. Harris talked with pride about his elder son, Kevin, about how well he was doing. Naturally I wondered whether Eric felt overshadowed by and inferior to his elder brother. I also reminded myself, though, how many parents show favor toward one child, and it usually doesn’t result in the overlooked child becoming a murderer.

The Harrises seemed mystified by what had happened to Eric. They seemed to rather readily accept that perhaps Eric was a psychopath, but indicated they didn’t know how he became one. They claimed Eric “fooled them” and fooled the psychologist who was treating him. They felt misled by the psychologist, who they felt had regarded Eric’s problems as minor.

In response to a question about whether they were a “dinner table family,” they claimed they ate many meals together as a family. They insisted they were never cruel to Eric. Both had jobs, but Mrs. Harris insisted they were always “available” for Eric.

Eric’s parents didn’t seem to think they missed any red flags. But they did share a few things about their son that seemed to perhaps be signs of something being awry. They admitted that Eric seemed to have intense reactions to being slighted by anyone. They revealed Eric was so mad once that he slammed his fist into a brick wall and scraped his knuckles badly. I wondered to myself whether they
considered that abnormal and of concern. I wondered whether outward displays of emotion were discouraged in their household and whether they were tightly wound parents who preferred to shun such outbursts rather than deal with them.

Mr. Harris acknowledged that Eric was probably self-conscious about the fact he had a chest abnormality that made his chest appear slightly caved in. He said Eric was upset that a recent operation on his chest hadn’t seemed to help it much, though he didn’t think Eric’s self-consciousness was something that led to his mental dysfunction.

The Harrises admitted Eric informed them he was not interested in joining any clubs at Columbine. That revelation was particularly disturbing to me. It’s not that it would have been an obvious sign of something ominous, but it made me wonder if it should have concerned them more, given his lack of friends and his known depression. I couldn’t help but conclude these parents didn’t value social interaction very highly. After all, they didn’t seem terribly outgoing themselves.

Linda asked Mr. Harris if Eric seemed overly fond of weaponry. He responded that he did not, but admitted that Eric subscribed to a gun magazine, adding that he thought he only did so to help him understand the video game Doom more readily. I wondered how the heck a detailed knowledge of guns would aid one in a computer game involving fantasy.

MISSING SIGNS

Mrs. Harris shared that Eric had made no plans for fall 1999, despite her insistence that he either find a job or be registered for school. She seemed somewhat unclear about whether Eric had taken any college entrance examinations. It seemed odd that she would not remember, but she added she was thinking of community college as an option for him, which would not have required the exams. Still, I felt it was not a good sign to have a depressed yet intelligent teen making no post graduation plans. The Harrises thought their son might have been manipulating them, holding off their demands for future planning by expressing interest in the Marines.

These accounts may have signaled the Harrises had a troubled teen, but even together they might not have been overwhelming clues that Eric could become a mass murderer. I would not automatically think of a teen who breaks into a car, has an interest in guns and violent video games, and doesn’t belong to school clubs, as being a candidate for committing mass murder. If American society thought those traits were evidence of a mass murderer, we’d be warning an awful lot of parents of potential trouble and putting thousands of teens in this country under surveillance.

But there were other signs that should have raised a red flag, such as Eric’s depression and his parents’ acknowledgment that he had few friends. He cunningly refused to let his parents into his disturbed world, but to me it seemed the Harrises didn’t take the time to look more deeply into his life and weren’t intrusive enough to become aware of the pipe bombs and guns.

I asked if they would help the world by talking publicly about the signs they missed in Eric, but the Harrises indicated they felt too vulnerable to speak with the media and didn’t think they could endure it. I continue to believe it’s tragic they have not spoken publicly, but I agree that anyone in their situation would be “eaten alive” by direct media exposure. I don’t believe the Harrises’ personas could have handled that kind of intense media inquiry.

Anything the Harrises would have said would have been questioned by most people as self-serving and defensive. Many people would not be satisfied unless they capitulated and said they were totally at fault. By not speaking publicly in any way after the massacre, and by not speaking in any helpful way with law enforcement, they had already lost practically any chance of earning the benefit of the public’s doubt.

DUPES?

Were Linda and I naive and too “easy” on the Harrises? Were we simply lied to by them? I’m sure some people w ill say we were. If that w as the case, so be it, but we are not as cynical as those who would insist we were deluded by the Harrises. We are fairly good judges of character and believe we’d know if someone were overtly lying. The Harrises did not strike us as calculating or devious people. If
anything, we felt they seemed rather hapless and oblivious. We concluded they likely were not aware enough, engaged enough, or perceptive enough to understand what was going on with their son.

Many other parents could not have easily predicted the viciousness that resided within Eric Harris. But they were negligent for not knowing about Eric’s Web site, for not noticing the weaponry stashed in their home, and for not doing more to encourage positive social interaction. At the same time, how many American parents can say they know a lot about their kids’ internet usage? How many closely monitor their teens’ rooms? How many do a lot to encourage their teens’ social lives? Many do, but many do not.

The Harrises at least seemed to have some minimal level of involvement in their son’s life and were getting mental health counseling for him. But their parenting style did not seem to rise to the level of heroic, nor did it seem adequate enough to address his mental illness. They blamed that on Eric’s psychologist, but I believe parents also have to take responsibility for comprehending and addressing their child’s mental wellness, just as they do their child’s physical wellness.

The Harrises did not seem like callous or cruel people, but they also did not seem like overly empathetic or expressive people. We concluded they were not evil or totally disconnected parents, but they also did not strike us as a couple w ho were highly affectionate or emotionally connected to their child.

At one point I was a bit frustrated by what I thought was a lack of any acknowledgment of failure on the part of the parents, asking the Harrises, “So there is nothing we can learn from this? Were no mistakes made?” They strongly implied there were none.

One observation that struck Linda was that they did not seem to second-guess themselves to any extent. She believed that if her child had shown signs of concern similar to those shown by Eric, she’d still be questioning herself. That just didn’t seem to be the case with the Harrises. They seemed to write it all off as largely unpreventable and the result of Eric’s mental illness.

At the end of our meeting, Linda told the Harrises that she forgave their son.

That seemed to please them. She later told me she felt uncomfortable extending forgiveness to the parents, because Eric was the one who committed the crime, and because the Harrises didn’t ask for her forgiveness. Besides, she felt somewhat ambiguous about them. I felt the same way. That’s why I extended no statement offering forgiveness. Nonetheless, at the end of our meeting, Linda wished them peace, and I did the same.

We talked with them for about an hour. I feel better for having met them and looking them in the eye. They did not seem monstrous, maybe just all-too-human. It was yet another part of the healing process. It did not provide an answer to the critical question of “Why?” but I never expected it would. It did provide some clues and a small glimpse into the lives of the people who were closest to Eric.

I like this passage a lot. There is a lot that you can find out from them just by this alone

Screamingophelia wrote:

I agree. The Brown family is milking this for all but it’s worth.

Agreed. BUT I would still pay good money for Randy's book!

Screamingophelia wrote:

I wish I could find the original article, which I'm sure I will be able to but when they say Brown are they talking about Judy or Randy? Why on earth would they have to be deposed?

If you haven't found it yet, here are copies of the articles that were quoted.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
It seems that it was Judy Brown that they were referring to and her deposition was in relation to her family reporting Eric to the police, like Lizpuff suggested.

I haven't read much about the depositions before so this was a piece of information from the articles above which I'd never known, the explanation for why they not only wanted the depositions never to be released, but also wanted them to be destroyed!
It states that during their depositions, the Harrises and the Klebolds made "frequent and multiple references" to writings that have not been released to the public and to various videotapes.
So they were worried that even referring to the videos or writings would inspire copycats or is it possible that they went into to some of the specific content on the tapes? In any case, it doesn't make sense to me since there was a Time magazine article that was released in 1999 which made reference to the tapes and even gave visual descriptions and partial transcripts of what was said. This explanation seems odd to me and makes me even more curious about the secrecy surrounding those tapes.

Also, in regard to the excerpt from Tom Mauser's book, I think it's interesting that he didn't seem to know that the Harrises had previously found a pipe bomb in Eric's room. He talks about how he doesn't think that they were lying to him but he also says that he felt that they "weren’t intrusive enough to become aware of the pipe bombs and guns" which makes me wonder if it was mentioned in the meeting or if Mr. Mauser ever learned that the Harrises had known about at least one pipe bomb.

sororityalpha wrote:

I wondered whether outward displays of emotion were discouraged in their household and whether they were tightly wound parents who preferred to shun such outbursts rather than deal with them.

Sounds like my parents.